Questions: The war, the Alliance, Saffron, changes to River in the BDM, Reavers by Deerswiper

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Questions: The war, the Alliance, Saffron, changes to River in the BDM, Reavers

POSTED BY: DEERSWIPER
UPDATED: Thursday, May 18, 2006 14:05
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VIEWED: 4089
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Thursday, May 18, 2006 10:44 AM

The movie doesn't make much sense to me, compared to Firefly. Two specific questions:

1) Is it trying to say that the Reavers were created only 12 years ago, despite beoming a legend in 'campfire tales'?

2) Suddenly, River isn't wanted alive to be tested on, they're just worried she'll tell everyone about the Reavers. Am I missing something?

I also don't get why this truth about the fate of Miranda is so terrible and devastating. It's nearly as bad as the prophecy in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. Governments interfere with large populations all the time. That's what they do. This is just one example where it had worse consequences than most. I don't think the intentions are going to be a big surprise to any of the Independents.

To be clear, what they were doing with River was turning her into the perfect assassin, yes? Anything else? (How on earth could stripping someone's amygdala help them become a ruthless assassin, based on Simon's description of its function? Wouldn't implanting another one be a better experiment [and they'd try the experiments likely to work on their 'star pupil']?)

Questions about parts of Firefly:

3) In 'Our Mrs Reynolds,' I'm taking it Saffron doesn't have anything to do with the people of that moon (though I can't imagine they wouldn't notice her marrying Mal). What I really don't get is why the people operating the net say things like 'if the Firefly comes this way...' Saffron's got to be working with them from the start.

4) Do you think anything happened to the other people in River's 'Academy' after the Alliance became less strong just because it was revealed they poisoned a planet?

5) The Unification War was very recent, but most of the cities are well-established. What made the Alliance suddenly decide they wanted control over the border planets? Were there other wars?

6) In 'Objects in Space,' what are the jobs River gives to Kaylee and Mal, and why, if she's really planning to leave? Is she planning to? To give herself up to the Alliance and Academy?

Anyway, my head's spinning from watching all that. I'll have to go back and watch it all again...

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Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:37 PM

KEYOKE

Quote:
Originally posted by Deerswiper:
The movie doesn't make much sense to me, compared to Firefly. Two specific questions:

1) Is it trying to say that the Reavers were created only 12 years ago, despite beoming a legend in 'campfire tales'?

Since the Alliance didn't want the information about the Reavers getting out, it's arguable that they suppress any real rumours and/or evidence of thier exsistance, thus reducing them to "campfire tales"

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2) Suddenly, River isn't wanted alive to be tested on, they're just worried she'll tell everyone about the Reavers. Am I missing something?

Before they wanted River back, she was valuable to them alive. Now that she knows too much, it's safer just to put her down.

Quote:

I also don't get why this truth about the fate of Miranda is so terrible and devastating. It's nearly as bad as the prophecy in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. Governments interfere with large populations all the time. That's what they do. This is just one example where it had worse consequences than most. I don't think the intentions are going to be a big surprise to any of the Independents.

Any government relies on control to stay in power. One of they ways they control the populace is to keep them happy with thier government. Since the majority of the populace seem to already be happy (Remember that the Browncoats were a tear-a-way faction) with the government, then information that reveals the Alliance to be corrupt and evil would destablise thier civilian support.

Quote:

To be clear, what they were doing with River was turning her into the perfect assassin, yes? Anything else? (How on earth could stripping someone's amygdala help them become a ruthless assassin, based on Simon's description of its function? Wouldn't implanting another one be a better experiment [and they'd try the experiments likely to work on their 'star pupil']?)

It's highly doubtful that whatever they were doing to River was completed before she was rescued. Otherwise I assume she'd already be something else. The idea that she was an "assasin" of some sort was just conjecture on Zoe's behalf. Its just as likely they were using River to perfect techniques ment for more compliant subjects.

Quote:

Questions about parts of Firefly:

3) In 'Our Mrs Reynolds,' I'm taking it Saffron doesn't have anything to do with the people of that moon (though I can't imagine they wouldn't notice her marrying Mal). What I really don't get is why the people operating the net say things like 'if the Firefly comes this way...' Saffron's got to be working with them from the start.

They did notice. She had probably already infiltrated that populace to await a ship to come by which she could con her way onto, and thus lead it to The Net.

About the net, they likely picked Serenity up long-range, and wouldn't have any indication that Saffron is on board, or which way Serenity was heading, until it came closer/Saffron sent a signal.

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4) Do you think anything happened to the other people in River's 'Academy' after the Alliance became less strong just because it was revealed they poisoned a planet?

Things probably continued as usual. Maybe the program was shut down hastily, and thats why they want River dead now instead of captured?

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5) The Unification War was very recent, but most of the cities are well-established. What made the Alliance suddenly decide they wanted control over the border planets? Were there other wars?

Control. Its likely that the Alliance wanted to control all trade and taxes to make the people at the top richer, we already know that the government is corrupt. It could also have been that out in the free planets people were able to operate outside Alliance law.

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6) In 'Objects in Space,' what are the jobs River gives to Kaylee and Mal, and why, if she's really planning to leave? Is she planning to? To give herself up to the Alliance and Academy?

I doubt River was ever really planning to leave, she's just good at acting (like with Badger in "Shindig"). The job she gave Mal was to get outside the ship and wait for her to lure Early out. Kaylee's job was to release the Captain and cut the power.

Hope I answered everything adequately.

----------------
"We feel the pain of a lifetime lost in a thousand days,
Through the fire and the flames we carry on"

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Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:54 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by Deerswiper:
The movie doesn't make much sense to me, compared to Firefly. Two specific questions:

1) Is it trying to say that the Reavers were created only 12 years ago, despite beoming a legend in 'campfire tales'?

Well Jayne says that they've only really been around ten years in the movie, which narrows it even more than the 12 years before that they were created but I look at it somewhat like this:

If you heard stories about vampires your whole life and then one day some people who didn't like garlic came by at night and sucked the blood out of your friends and family wouldn't you think those were vampires even if in truth, unknown to you, they were in fact created three years back long after the vampire myths were created?

The same could hold true here.

The stories of men gone savage on the edge of space probably predated they actual Reavers, but when they showed up they fit the bill perfectly.

only one way of looking at it mind you.

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2) Suddenly, River isn't wanted alive to be tested on, they're just worried she'll tell everyone about the Reavers. Am I missing something?

yes you are. I think it goes more in depth about it in the comics but I have not read those either, however the short version is this:

The Blue Hand people want River back and alive, they are not in any way The Operative from the movie. He was put on the case in between the series and the movie because it came to their attention that River's condition got drastically worse after she was in the same room as certain members of parliament.

They put the two together and guessed, correctly, that River knew about the Reavers and all of a sudden priorities shifted. They judged that it was more important to keep Miranda secret than retrieve River intact.

It goes into this a little in the shooting script.

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I also don't get why this truth about the fate of Miranda is so terrible and devastating.

If someone proved to you that your government was experimenting on your neighbors and had just killed off 30,000,000 of them wouldn't that piss you off at least a little? Miranda wasn't an independent colony, she was a core world or close to one, more developed than any port Serenity usually docks at. The message didn't effect the independents so much as the people in the core.

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To be clear, what they were doing with River was turning her into the perfect assassin, yes? Anything else?

Maybe, it is never made clear what their intentions were however I have a feeling assassin is only a small aspect of it.

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Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:58 PM

GOLDINBOY

As far as them cutting into her brain is concerned, I figure the purpose of the amygdala is to control what she feels. River is a reader, and having something that helps you control what you feel might interfear with mind reading. now she feels everything, including other people's emotions. if her brain was still in tact, she might ignore these feelings and think no relevence of them.

on the note about them wanting her dead all of the sudden. the way I see it is that the operative, in researching river and trying to find her, found out that she might know something. this would corrispond to after the TV series. so before they wanted her back, but now that they know she is and always will be a threat they want her dead. even the operative turned against the alliance when he found out the truth, and you wouldn't want a perfect assasin walking around like that would you?

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Thursday, May 18, 2006 1:07 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Questions about parts of Firefly:
3) In 'Our Mrs Reynolds,' I'm taking it Saffron doesn't have anything to do with the people of that moon (though I can't imagine they wouldn't notice her marrying Mal). What I really don't get is why the people operating the net say things like 'if the Firefly comes this way...' Saffron's got to be working with them from the start.

I know plenty of people who don't like to commit to anything. "I should be there at noon, if I am then we'll go out to eat." As far as they know there is nothing on earth that will stop them from showing up, but they still won't say it for sure.

Saffron has to hijack the ship to make it turn that way, whether or not she can is one hell of a big if, you know one of her against everyone that might be on that ship, for all those guys know there's a full crew and passenger complement.

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4) Do you think anything happened to the other people in River's 'Academy' after the Alliance became less strong just because it was revealed they poisoned a planet?

Well there are protests, riots and calls for a recall of parliament, that hardly implies that there's suddenly a list of every facility that "doesn't exist" so they can be shut down. Odds say that people still don't know the facility exists and thus can't do a damn thing about it.

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5) The Unification War was very recent, but most of the cities are well-established. What made the Alliance suddenly decide they wanted control over the border planets? Were there other wars?

We know of no other wars, as for what made them decide to take control... it was probably the usual stuff; they looked at the chaos of the outer worlds and said, "We could help them so much if we were just in charge," or they said, "I don't give a damn that they’re starving I'm not paying that much for beef/clay/any other resource I buy from the rim."

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6) In 'Objects in Space,' what are the jobs River gives to Kaylee and Mal, and why, if she's really planning to leave? Is she planning to?

Kaylee lets the captain out, Mal throws Early into space. She was never planning to leave and other than Simon getting shot everything went exactly as she planned.

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Thursday, May 18, 2006 1:19 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

By the way, for those of you who don't have the shooting script of Serenity there was a little bit more in The Operative's talk with the doctor, after he says, "And you put them in a room, with a psychic."

Doctor: She was ... she read cards, nothing more.
The Operative: It's come to our attention that River became much more unstable, more ... disturbed, after you showed her off to Parliament. Did she see something very terrible on those cards?

The Alliance doesn't actually know that River knew about Miranda, but they suspect that she knows something very, very bad. Bad enough to tear someone's mind apart. Any secret like that, and there could be more than one, is potentially damaging. The fact that it came straight out of the mind of an important member of Parliament means it is worse, it is corruption that goes straight to the top and can't be shrugged off with a traditional, "General so-and-so did it and no one of value knew what was happening."

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Thursday, May 18, 2006 1:46 PM

ACRAZYIVAN

Quote:
6) In 'Objects in Space,' what are the jobs River gives to Kaylee and Mal, and why, if she's really planning to leave? Is she planning to? To give herself up to the Alliance and Academy?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there's a shot of Kaylee with Shephard Book after she's open the door for Mal. I think it's when she's talking to everyone on the full comm system. So, my guess is she was also asked to check on him.

I also don't think she ever planned to leave - it was all a big scam to trick Early. I'm basing that on Mal talking to River about Simon 'ruining her plan' by attacking Early.

Keep on flyin'

"We've gotta go to the crappy town where I'm a hero."

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Thursday, May 18, 2006 1:51 PM

SIGMANUNKI

I'm not going to enter the fray again. This topic has been beaten to death since the movie was released. So, I'll just mention that you are not alone in thinking that the movie has a significant number of inconsistencies in it.

In fact, IMO, one should not mistake the BDM 'verse for the FF 'verse. They are similar but different eg the characters are different, similar but different.

@all, again, I'm not willing to debate this topic again, so don't try to engage me. If you want mine and many others specific opinions on this topic, search the archive.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Thursday, May 18, 2006 2:05 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I'm not going to enter the fray again. This topic has been beaten to death since the movie was released. So, I'll just mention that you are not alone in thinking that the movie has a significant number of inconsistencies in it.

Perhaps, but not the ones that have been mentioned in this thread. At least I don't think so, I mean I never heard anyone claiming these ones were inconsistencies. I mean the Alliance's stance wrt River can not be inconstant because of the very definition of the word, "inconstant," and the Reaver bit I haven't heard challenged as inconsistent, bad story telling I've heard, but not inconsistent.

[If this is wrong you can simply say, "It's wrong," and I won't pressure you to elaborate or back that up.]

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