Jayne's Soul by JuniperJayne

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Jayne's Soul

POSTED BY: JUNIPERJAYNE
UPDATED: Friday, July 14, 2006 07:27
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VIEWED: 5762
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Thursday, July 6, 2006 8:40 AM

So I was re-watching a couple episodes last night, and coupled with my friends' comments on how Jayne is totally a bad guy, I'd just like to say that I really have come to believe that he has a soul. A dumb soul, perhaps, he's certainly not the brightest bulb in the box. But a soul nonetheless. And I'm not trying to be preachy, really not my style. But my friends don't seem to understand his depth. Example: tears in his eyes at the end of Jaynestown thinking about the kid that died in his place. Helping resuce Mal from Niska. Fighting in the movie even though it could have easily been his death trap.

Of course, my friends didn't believe me when I tried to argue that the Phantom of the Opera had a soul, too, a tortured one, and that he redeemed himself by letting Christine go. Well, he mostly redeemed himself - Not a guy I'd hang out with, but still.

What do you guys think? Everyone's always so open and responsive on this forum, I love it!

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Thursday, July 6, 2006 9:00 AM

DRACONUS

I definately agree. Jayne's has a soul, one that does plague him at certain times. If not, then why are Jayne and Book such good friends?

---------------------------

May you have enough.

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Thursday, July 6, 2006 9:02 AM

SPACEANJL

I'm working on a little something to explain Jayne at the moment. But there was definitely an arc going on with the character development. My take on the 'betrayal' was that anyone not on the crew was not going to be protected. Once you're Jayne's crew, you're protected. Big time.
Unless he has to throw you out to make room for the money...

Phantom of the Opera - I completely got the deal with him. Brought up as a killer and freakshow, not going to have the best interpersonal skills. The whole Yellow Room deal was very creepy. Read a version of the story that suggested that Raoul and Chrisitne's son was really Erik's, and they actually made it make sense. Fanfic someone got paid for!

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Thursday, July 6, 2006 9:10 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

I think Jayne is a lot smarter and a lot more competant than he appears.

And I think he has a good soul. Its just a little smuged around the edges.

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Thursday, July 6, 2006 9:14 AM

DAVESHAYNE

I'm a little confused here. Are you asking if Jayne has a soul in the religious sense? If so then as I understand the concept everybody has one. It's like standard issue or something.

But it sounds like your question is more regarding his conscience. Which he does have even if he doesn't use it much. Jayne's moral code is based on the selfish principles. If it's good for Jayne it's good. If it's bad for Jayne it's bad. Otherwise it's not worth worrying about. Jayne is only slowly learning that sometimes things that are good for others while not providing and obvious imediate benefit for him turn out to be good for him as well.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Thursday, July 6, 2006 9:43 AM

NVGHOSTRIDER

Honestly, for as much that the Jayne charecter has done to be a bad guy, he has a fairly pure soul. He is true in his feelings and he is not afraid to show it. He shows fear upon the mention of reavers, he states his feelings no matter how idiotic or vulgar, he responds to females in a way I had more of, and he fights his hardest to ensure the ability to do more of what he does. Like all of us he needs that bash to the head from time to time. We are all human and forget that life is not always hard or easy, it just is and we need to do all with it we can.

Taking the short end of the stick.

MAL: "What happen about me?"

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Thursday, July 6, 2006 9:57 AM

MSG

I think Jayne just doesn'tknow better. You see him get more of a conscience as the show goes on. From his mothers letter I'd guess he's th oldest and had to raise himself and help mom with the others so he's just not had anyone to show him what's right. As he goes on in Firefly and Serenity you see him learn...and having just watched Our Mrs. Reynolds about 10 min ago I noticed something I missed. When Mal is yelling about Saffron not being his wife and she's crying. Kaylee's hugging her, but out of frame and all you see is Jayne's hand gently patting and rubbing Saffron's arm...that doesn't scream bad guy. And remember when he offers Vera in trade... He thinks he's doing the right thing and is confused by the captain's response...then he says " I wouldn't hurt her I'd treat her right and Mal's totally automatic not thought through response is "I know you would"

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

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Thursday, July 6, 2006 10:00 AM

RUGBUG

Quote:
Originally posted by daveshayne:
Jayne is only slowly learning that sometimes things that are good for others while not providing and obvious imediate benefit for him turn out to be good for him as well.

He's also learning that sometimes things that are good for others aren't good for him but should stil be done anyway. Otherwise there is no way he would've been behind Mal's plan in the BDM. There was no good to be had for him alone. He was completely selfless

Interestingly enough, before I saw the BDM on the big screen (at one of the charity screenings) I didn't really like Jayne much. I find him much more compelling now. Was just watching Ariel last night and he broke my heart in the end when he asks Mal to tell make something up about why he's dead. He's struggling to be a good guy and to figure out what that means(and probably only because he's with Mal and respects him) and that makes me like him.

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Thursday, July 6, 2006 10:00 AM

JUNIPERJAYNE

Hmmm, I don't think I meant soul in the religious sense...I can certainly understand what you are saying. Let's say that I mean soul in terms of soul/conscience/spirit/humanity/general terms.

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Thursday, July 6, 2006 10:03 AM

JUNIPERJAYNE

See, you guys can understand what I'm saying, that there's something in him, whether you want to call it a growing conscience, a soul, whatever. My friends scoff at me and say that he's just a bad guy, no good in him at all.

And it amuses me that they're the ones who introduced me to the series in the first place lol.

Thanks guys, always thoughtful and intriguing convos on this site.

Now if I could just convince my friends that my liking Jayne and the Phantom is NOT crazy...

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Thursday, July 6, 2006 10:09 AM

DRACONUS

"Shepard Book use to tell me, if you can't do something smart, do something right."
Now does that sound like something someone without a conscience would say?

---------------------------

May you have enough.

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Thursday, July 6, 2006 10:10 AM

MSG

you might want to mention how he treats women...lusty yes, but gentle and kind. Never hits one ( unlike Mal), obviously adores Kaylee, relatively gentle with River ( he really could have hurt her a few times and didn't and feels awful the one time he does), asks never demands a womans company even in Heart of Gold he asks the girl and brushes her hair and treats her nicely. He pets Saffron gently on the shoulder when she cries and does what he sees as the noble thing offering his most prized possession for her when Mal doesn't want her... you never once see him mistreat a woman and it's obvious from the Message that he sends a good portion of the money he makes home to support his mother and sister:)

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

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Thursday, July 6, 2006 10:52 AM

RAKARR

Every one has a soul...

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Thursday, July 6, 2006 11:11 AM

JUNIPERJAYNE

Mmmmmmmm gentle giant Jayne. He's just...unpolished I suppose is the word I'm looking for. As much as I can admire Mal's character part of me wants to say that at least Jayne doesn't concentrate on the past...and a lot of times Mal's behavior bugged me.

I think I'll direct my friends to this thread. Perhaps they will finally understand.

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Thursday, July 6, 2006 2:58 PM

TRAVELER

I notice Jayne in Heart of Gold too. He stayed with one woman instead of bouncing from bed to bed and he talked to her as a person and not an object as you would expect. I think his lack of education is what makes him seem coarse. It's not only that his mother sent him that hat, it's how he appriciated it. You could see the love he shares with his mother when he slaps it on his head. Says something about being fetching. Big word for him. I grant you he loves money. But he threw his into pot as easily as the others to save Mal and Wash, in War Stories.

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Sunday, July 9, 2006 6:21 AM

IMPROBABILITYZERO

I think before meeting Mal and Zoe, he was a typical mercenary where they go after the best deal, which I guess made it easier to switch to Mal's crew (see Out of Gas). During the course of his stay he's become gradually more loyal (managing not to betray Mal in the end of the pilot episode), but was affected on the episode of Ariel where he got attacked by River. I think that he thought he was doing the crew a favor also by getting money and in a sense protecting them (earlier in the episode when he warns the captain to lock the doors at night). Evidently he is still learning but you can see his inherent good nature with him sending money to his mother and his confusion at the end of Jaynetown. He's uneducated, but he's got wit.

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Sunday, July 9, 2006 7:43 AM

SPACEANJL

Er...I'm going to sidle into the thread with some unashamed and blatant fic-pimping. I am a complete Jayne-aholic, (perhaps a Cobbnut is a good term?) and for those people like me, a large amount of Jayne-like goodness can be found in the Blue Sun room with my name on it. Thank you.

*Sidles out again*

Seriously, I'm fascinated by the evolution of what was clearly meant to be a bad guy role. Part of it is down to the mighty (hot) Adam Baldwin, the rest of it to the writers. I'm running with their ideas. (very fast, before the lawyers catch me.

)

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Friday, July 14, 2006 7:27 AM

INDIGOSTARBLASTER

Well, pretty much everyone thinks of him-/herself as a good guy -- we're all the heroes of our own stories, right? -- but in Jayne's case I agree with most of the posters that he really is a good guy.

He treats women (his mother, his crewmates, his sex partners) with respect and affection.

He regularly sends money home to help out his family.

He works really hard.

He understands good and evil the same way Book (the preacher and therefore the moral "expert") does.

He's loyal to Mal and the rest of his crew (the betrayal(s) of River and Simon come about because he doesn't think of them as crew quite yet and because they are in fact endangering his crew).

(To the extent he has been disloyal to former colleagues/employers, I'm guessing it's because he didn't feel like he was part of _their_ crew -- he felt they would be willing to turn on him for convenience or profit, and it would therefore be foolish for him not to do the same.)

He's ashamed of the bad/wrong/amoral things he's done ("Don't tell 'em what I did... make something up...".

He's physically courageous (some may scoff, but it takes a lot of will, I think, to go out and risk getting shot at).

He doesn't whine, scheme, or play politics. He talks straight.

He recognizes and respects the good in others (e.g., Simon's ability to plan and his competence as a doctor in Ariel) and forthrightly disapproves their less desirable qualities (e.g., Mal's waffling in the BDM).

The fact that he's also crass and willing to maim and kill for a living -- well, he's a big, strong guy without a lot of education, and he and his family have a powerful need to eat, as Mal would say. There's no question that our work (chosen freely or otherwise) shapes us as much as our family and friends do. As such, we can't expect Jayne the armed mercenary to be overly empathetic or heroicly committed to a lost cause. But all things considered, his work has still left him a remarkably sweet human being.

And this, mind you, is all coming from someone who isn't particularly a fan of Jayne's. But it's the genius of this show, that I can understand and feel for and even love characters I don't actually like (if that makes sense at all).

And it's a credit to Adam Baldwin, too, that I like Jayne more and more, each time I watch the series/BDM. He did a remarkable job, as did all of the cast and crew of this wonderful 'verse.

Indigo S.

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