Mal's Heroism - Serenity to Serenity by wytchcroft

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Mal's Heroism - Serenity to Serenity

POSTED BY: WYTCHCROFT
UPDATED: Friday, April 25, 2008 08:27
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Friday, April 11, 2008 11:09 PM

Funnily enough - this post has been drawn out of me in response to watching (contemporary) BSG - and reading divergent views on it in the book 'So say we all'.
Much like the threads here BSG seems to excite polar views of love or hate... the nearest we Firefly fans get is occasional rifts and tiffs over the BDM. Firefly Vs Serenity. (which i'll come back to in a moment.)

Now, first off - i'm a huge fan of both shows, Original BSG and new BSG. i take a middle view finding exceptional qualities and flaws in both. Naysayers of a popular show are often derided but when critics mourn the bleak view of humanity, the petty motivations, the dysfunctional relationships and the lack of focused characterisations presented by the new show - well they may have a point. Similarly, when nostalgic fans of the old show point out the essential nobility, unity and selfless heroism of the old Galactica crew... well, this may sound a little unrealistic to some modern ears but it's far from a minority view, the love of exciting old fashioned Good Vs Evil adventuring is what fuels the fan base of Star Wars and many other popular franchises after all. And there are frequent posts that seem to share the view.

So - to Mal. I find Firefly (and BDM) superior to BSG in both incarnations - and for fairly simple reasons. It's rounded and three dimensional - if you poured a Hero from the old BSG into a Vat then added the same character from new BSG into the mix, well, when the wax cools... you might just find a crew member of Serenity.
The Serenity crew can be petty, bleak and dysfunctional - but they can be gorram noble, unified, selfless and heroic too.
(The fact that they do so for plausible and consistent reasons is another reason why I love Firefly.)

And of course the ultimate example for this is Mal.

So - do people here see Mal as pretty much a BDM from top to toe, start to finish -
or are fans accepting of the idea of a character arc that leads from the loss of faith in the valley through the ups and downs of a buccaneering life, to a real low point
(where he is estranged from many of his crew/family, either physically as in the case of Inara or emotionally, bickering violently with Simon or trading emotional blows with Kaylee)
from say, Better Days and TLB, just prior to and throughout the BDM - before crisis sparks renewal and the fully Heroic climax and emotionally healing finale of the Serenity movie.

(I'm not saying that's the end of the story - but OFFICIALLY that's all she wrote!)

If all that seems obvious - bear with me for a minute.
What I mean is - If Firefly was a cake, could you cut a slice at any point and taste the essential heroism of Mal every time?
(I know the 'Mal's Loyalty' thread got real heated.)
Or -- would you sometimes taste the acrid flavour of his back being turned, morals going grey, values being questionable, hope/faith scorned and the rewards of life counting for little.
In other words - Is he always cut in the cloth of old BSG - or are there time when he is closer to the war-torn survivalists of the new BSG?

My view (and it's just that, simply a p.o.v) is to go along with 'arc' concept. Firefly is great because it allows for flaws yet keeps characters just on the shade of love-able. And as for Mal - well, even the artifical character thawing that Fox bestowed was handled well... e.g SHINDIG where his attempt at being Jim Kirk was shown to be pretty embarrassing, his 'heroism' was misplaced. Yes Atherton was a git, but that's not the point. Compare it to Heart of Gold and it seems that Mal is gradually learning to become a REAL hero again, despite his previous traumas in the war. This side of him comes out more fully in the BDM where self-interest is clearly put aside and where Mal's protection of River* is more clear sighted and less personally motivated than his 'defense' of Inara's honour in Shindig. (Out of Gas is the mid-way lynch pin maybe...)
So he was, can be, and turns out to be, a Hero - not too unlike Starbuck of old BSG ultimately.

But during the 'can be' phase? Well times are that he's just plain mean - and as 'dark' as any of the kids in new BSG.

(I'm just starting to think that Jayne follows a similar line from Self-Interest to a willingness to help others and a recognition of 'right and wrong' - but it's less developed, more open to question/speculation and doesn't hinge on the trauma of Serenity Valley and the war)

Any views? What do other fans, viewers, readers of fics etc feel about this?
Again, I realise 'the answer/truth' might seem obvious to either side - All Hero or Eventual Hero - but the debates in the Loyalty Thread and the BSG thread have got me curious... so here i am (most of me anyway) canvassing views!
I'd love to know.

*This is different to the protection he offers instinctively in the FireFly show, where he shows to be fiercely loyal to the Crew. The downside to that is that he is therefore simply protecting his own - those that belong to him - whose actual humanity/identity is not the point. Come the BDM he begins to see people as more than just his objects (in space). Especially in the case of River, where he picks her up from the maidenhead and brings her back on board.
By the same token - the crew have to make a definite choice for the first tiem to 'go along with' Mal on an unpleasant, unrewarding and potentially suicidal mission. Which they do. (But I can argue against all the above - WarStories anyone?)

one last thing - I can remember back when the split was between 'clean cut' heroes of BSG and 'criminal anti-heroes' of Blake's 7 - another show now considered terminally cheesy but with great moments nonetheless. By far the most radical being that the essential hero Avon (he broods), when faced with a critical weight imbalance on a shuttle, during the final series, decides quickly to throw Vila(he panics)- who has been with him since the beginning of the show - out the nearest airlock. Not even new BSG has gone that dark yet. Would Mal ever do the same i wonder? Stuck on a shuttle with Wash or the Tam boy or Book what we a pre-BDM Mal do to survive?

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Saturday, April 12, 2008 12:03 AM

SPACEANJL

In the last-ditch situation you describe, I reckon Book would sneak up and bat Mal round the head, then step out nobly a la Oates.

And I think Jayne gets a raw deal in all the write-ups of the show - of course he's big and violent. He's also still alive. You just have to make sure you are in the circle of things that are 'his' to earn protection. It's a bit more rough hewn than Mal's concept, but a similar thing.

The BDM did us all a bit of a disservice in a way - everything had to be drawn with much cruder strokes to fit into the time. What it could have been over time...(Damn you, F*x!)

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Saturday, April 12, 2008 5:03 AM

HOPERULES

I see Mal's heroism this way - During the War he was a soldier full of faith trying to help free the verse from oppression, sure the Browncoats would win because they were on the right side. When the Browncoats lost the war, he lost his faith. However, he could not stop being who he was, so he made his verse very small, small enough he thought he could keep it free and safe. It consisted only of Serenity and its crew. I know we are never suppose to second guess Joss, but in the BDM when Zoe remarks that during the war they never would have left a man behind, I think Mal should have replied, "Well, that guy wasn't one of ours."

I think the arrival of River and Simon ends up slowly dragging Mal back into the bigger verse without him realizing it.

I'm not sure this reply directly responds to your question, but I have long had this view of Mal's character and took this opportunity to throw it out there. I hope you don't mind.

May have been on the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Saturday, April 12, 2008 5:21 AM

CHRISISALL

Mal's a person, actual & whole. Not a simple character out of the old BSG, nor an angsty for angsty's sake one from the new BSG. The characters from Firefly are so well fleshed-out they defy comparison to almost any other SF show IMO, save Dark Angel.

My 2 sheckles Chrisisall

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Sunday, April 20, 2008 10:35 PM

AMELIA427

Mal is a selfish person, always using people for his advantage. Even when he talks about the war, he views his reasons for joining in ways of how the government's rule might affect his life or livelihood. Coming from a land owning, free person background, how much land the government might take from him seemed a bit more important to him than how the government was treating its people.

I think River was suppose to come into Mal's life. To wake him up and make him realize that there are more important things going in the his 'verse, and to show him how worse off it could be for him.

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Monday, April 21, 2008 5:22 AM

HOPERULES

I certainly don't see Mal as a selfish human being, at least not anymore than rest of us real human beings who can only see the world through our own experiences.

In the pilot, he really seems to care for Kaylee and feels guilty about her injury, tells Inara to take the passengers and run, while he and the crew try to slow the Reavers down, and, in the end, invites Simon and River to stay even though the Feds are looking for them. Later, he returns for Simon and River a couple of times and takes Serenity to an Alliance ship so Book can get medical treatment. And we all know the kind of unpleasantness that resulted from returning the medicine in "The Train Job". None of these seem like the acts of a basically selfish man. Also, I don't think Zoe would be so fiercely loyal to him if he was selfish

I haven't read or seen much that officially explains why Mal joined the Browncoats, so I can't speak to his motivations. Howevever, speaking as someone whose daughter is about to join the Army, I don't see fighting for your own freedom and that of others as selfish.

May have been on the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Thursday, April 24, 2008 9:45 PM

SHINYGOODGUY

I agree with Hoperules.
Mal has lost his faith, yes, but selfish, no.
He is sometimes brash (some may call it ballsy) and sometimes his bark is worse than his bite, but selfish is not his forte.

Jayne kept asking him why he didn't abandon River and Simon first chance he got. He never answered. He cared and he didn't want to let on, not even to himself, that there was a glimmer of hope left in his body. The last he had hope (Battle of Serenity) he was crushed. I think naming the ship Serenity was his reminder of just what he lost that day. But it came to mean something diiferent after the discovery of the secret of Miranda.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hoperules:
I certainly don't see Mal as a selfish human being, at least not anymore than rest of us real human beings who can only see the world through our own experiences.

In the pilot, he really seems to care for Kaylee and feels guilty about her injury, tells Inara to take the passengers and run, while he and the crew try to slow the Reavers down, and, in the end, invites Simon and River to stay even though the Feds are looking for them. Later, he returns for Simon and River a couple of times and takes Serenity to an Alliance ship so Book can get medical treatment. And we all know the kind of unpleasantness that resulted from returning the medicine in "The Train Job". None of these seem like the acts of a basically selfish man. Also, I don't think Zoe would be so fiercely loyal to him if he was selfish

I haven't read or seen much that officially explains why Mal joined the Browncoats, so I can't speak to his motivations. Howevever, speaking as someone whose daughter is about to join the Army, I don't see fighting for your own freedom and that of others as selfish.

May have been on the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Shiny! Let's be bad guys!

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Thursday, April 24, 2008 9:52 PM

SHINYGOODGUY

I do agree that River was supposed to be in Mal's life, both she and Book. There is a very telling scene in the pilot when they were on Persephone and Book was looking at the ship in the docks. Kaylee watched as he was passing by and said to him "you're supposed to come with us."

Quote:
Originally posted by Amelia427:
Mal is a selfish person, always using people for his advantage. Even when he talks about the war, he views his reasons for joining in ways of how the government's rule might affect his life or livelihood. Coming from a land owning, free person background, how much land the government might take from him seemed a bit more important to him than how the government was treating its people.

I think River was suppose to come into Mal's life. To wake him up and make him realize that there are more important things going in the his 'verse, and to show him how worse off it could be for him.

Shiny! Let's be bad guys!

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Friday, April 25, 2008 5:41 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by Hoperules:
I certainly don't see Mal as a selfish human being, at least not anymore than rest of us real human beings who can only see the world through our own experiences.

In the pilot, he really seems to care for Kaylee and feels guilty about her injury, tells Inara to take the passengers and run, while he and the crew try to slow the Reavers down, and, in the end, invites Simon and River to stay even though the Feds are looking for them. Later, he returns for Simon and River a couple of times and takes Serenity to an Alliance ship so Book can get medical treatment. And we all know the kind of unpleasantness that resulted from returning the medicine in "The Train Job". None of these seem like the acts of a basically selfish man. Also, I don't think Zoe would be so fiercely loyal to him if he was selfish

I haven't read or seen much that officially explains why Mal joined the Browncoats, so I can't speak to his motivations. Howevever, speaking as someone whose daughter is about to join the Army, I don't see fighting for your own freedom and that of others as selfish.

May have been on the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Joining in here. *g*

I don't think this has to be an either/or situation.

Mal is both selfless and selfish.

He does use people, he does happily manipulte them and he does take out his bad mood on them. Even Kaylee. He's needlessly violent because it pleases him and he's deliberately cruel because it helps him hide his insecurities.

To deny those things is not necessary as they do not negate the fact that he also harbors fugitives to his own disadvantage and will give back medicine to those who need it (after stealing it in the first place).

He is not a perfect person by far and to aknowledge that only makes him more interesting. He has a long way to go from being angry and scared (and he is) to having faith and confidence in his place in the world.

In fact, his very real imperfections were what drew me to him in the first place.

Mal is deeply flawed. Beautifully flawed.

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Friday, April 25, 2008 6:19 AM

HOPERULES

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Friday, April 25, 2008 6:19 AM

HOPERULES

I guess my definition of someone who is selfish goes beyond someone who likes to tease people or who does what is necessary for survival in a brutal world or who is sometimes mean to the people he cares about because of his own issues. All these actions are the actions of character who behaves like a real and intriguing person. To me, however, they do not make a person selfish. For me a selfish person is someone whose sole motivation is what is easiest and best for himself. He has only his own interests a heart. I just don't see that as the case with Mal. He has his flaws. All characters that are realistic and attractive do. But I don't see selfishness as one of them unless as I said before it is the selfishness that ALL human beings have.

May have been on the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Friday, April 25, 2008 6:53 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by Hoperules:
I guess my definition of someone who is selfish goes beyond someone who likes to tease people or who does what is necessary for survival in a brutal world or who is sometimes mean to the people he cares about because of his own issues. All these actions are the actions of character who behaves like a real and intriguing person. To me, however, they do not make a person selfish. For me a selfish person is someone whose sole motivation is what is easiest and best for himself. He has only his own interests a heart. I just don't see that as the case with Mal. He has his flaws. All characters that are realistic and attractive do. But I don't see selfishness as one of them unless as I said before it is the selfishness that ALL human beings have.

May have been on the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one.

But how would what you call a selfish person not be that way for the same reasons: because of their own issues? No person is always and only selfish. I see Mal as often acting more selfish than many other people on his ship.

He doesn't just steal things no one else needs. He kills a person, brutally, for a dubious sense of safety: as if sending Crow into the engine made him any safer than not doing so. He enjoys hurting people just because they don't agree with is world view, as seen in his U-Day bar fight tradition. He doesn't give a fleeting thought about what Inara might need or want at that ball in "Shindig" it's all about baiting her and Atherton and then he's confused when she doesn't thank him for it? He doesn't once try to stop Tracey by simply telling him that thy have a plan, even though it endangers Kaylee, possibly because he had already decided to simply kill him.

Hell, Mal's anger at God is motivated by selfishness. You didn't do what I asked you to, now I hate you!

I am not saying selfishness is his only trait, or his strongest one, but he does have it. He is not a noble person.

For good reasons, as you say, but what is the point in saying "this amount of selfish is not selfish"? Selfish is as selfish does and Mal does do it enough.

I still love him, but it's just a fact. He's a selfish person. He is also a generous person. Parallel. One doesn't negate the other.

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Friday, April 25, 2008 7:50 AM

HOPERULES

Ok, fine. I guess Mal could be considered selfish.

I guess I'm just uncivilized enough not to consider brutally and quickly killing a nasty thug who works for a psychopath and getting into a bar fight as signs of unusal selfishness.

I actually think Mal thought he was sticking up for Inara after Atherton grabs her arm like she was his property. Men, selfish idiots that they are, sometimes just don't know when to mind their own business.

I think everyone needs some selfishness in order to survive either emotionally and/or physically. If people are not selfish to one degree or another, the world would destroy them. The world is a pretty cruel place.

P.S. I think Jayne is way more selfish than Mal.

May have been on the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Friday, April 25, 2008 8:27 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by Hoperules:
I think everyone needs some selfishness in order to survive either emotionally and/or physically. If people are not selfish to one degree or another, the world would destroy them. The world is a pretty cruel place.

P.S. I think Jayne is way more selfish than Mal.

I agree with you on both those counts.

I think my point is that every person is selfish and Mal, through particular circumstances, a bit more than recommended. Mal isn't bad. He could be, though, given the wrong incentive. He already is, sometimes. I love that about him. A much more useful character, one who actually does do the wrong things - and not for good reasons - because of fear or pettiness, and who has to face the consequences of those things, too. Tells us much more about ourselves than having the same thing packed into Grand Interstellar Heroics, like on my equally beloved but less amazing Farscape.

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