Book's line in Objects in Space? by Geiiga

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Book's line in Objects in Space?

POSTED BY: GEIIGA
UPDATED: Monday, October 15, 2007 04:43
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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 7:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TwilightJack:
I'm going to be content with banking on a former leader of the Alliance military. The Glorious Leader of the Anglo-Sino Alliance would be a bit too well known to pose as a shepherd.

lol, yah, well, you know, just throwing that out there. For our simple minds the concept may be too far fetched to even suggest. But with Joss, you never know. The man's got miles and miles of the imaginations.

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Saturday, August 12, 2006 6:45 PM

GRRRARG

Ok,there seem to be two threads of though here
1. What was Book?
I imagine he was once something very much like Operative. As if we were to look at Book as if he were Operative at the end of Serenity, his faith in something greater shattered by the reality of what is. Book wouldnt have shattered, though - he would have sought something to believe in which should be believed in. Thats not a statement of belief on my part, mind you, but the power manifest in believing in something greater than yourself defined both Book and Operative. I think Book was someone very much like Operative, and became a Sheppard after loosing belief in the utopia of Alliance.

2. What did Book meant.
River catches a snach of whats there - and the emotion behind it. But think about this - Book seems to be a placid character - but what if he's only that outside - what if inside he's a very intense person. Look at the quote without the anger - should a Sheppard care one way or another if someone is innocent or not? Ep. 1 Sheppard goes into Innara's shuttle, and she asks him if he's going to give her a sermon, and no, he's giving her soup. Maybe Book is one of those rare Christians who doesnt actually care if you're innocent or not, he's going to love you like his Messiah told him to.

"Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes." -Terry Pratchett "Night Watch"

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Saturday, August 12, 2006 10:25 PM

WINDSTRUCK

BOOK

Book has to be involved in the Alliance in a former life, before becoming a Shepperd.

He's well trained in the art of combat/war. It is given that he had training - in hand to hand combat and weapons.
He can identify bullet wounds. Has great detective skills.

The question would be, what was he in the former life?

An Operative would be a very good guess. It is possible. But how long has the war been going on? The unification war ended 6-7 yrs ago. How long was the war? Wars could last for a very long time. He may still have been an Operative in an old fashioned (pre-River) sort of way.
Was an Operative around the age of 20-35.

Became a Director of Operations for a Covert Group after is a good idea. Maybe even a team leader. Killed millions and millions of lives. He has to have experience field work.

Director of Operation / Team leader around the age of 35-50.

Had a parliament gig on the side for a year.

10-15 yrs in the abbey. 60-65 yrs old.

THE ID CARD:

It has to be his card. I don't believe he took it from anyone.
He still has connections in the Alliance. He is important enough to get immediate assistance but he's no spy. High ranking enough in his former life. A part of the parliament.

THE LINE IN OIS:

I think he was referring to Jayne. They were talking about Masturbation at the time. Jayne's asking (innocently) about sex lives of priests.
Book doesn't care about how innocent Jayne is about these things.

ABOUT INARA DYING:

She's a big girl, tell her that she should stay (on the ship).

THE MOVIE:

Book dying. I could not guess why he asked for RIVER. He knows something about her or maybe he just wants Mal to protect her. He could have revealed a secret about himself or about River to River.

Sorry Long Post.

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Monday, August 14, 2006 12:50 PM

VICOMTE

I don't think we're supposed to know what he meant. In the copmmentary, Joss saya something abotu hearing things 'we don't yet understand', which means it could have come up in a later episode.

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Monday, September 18, 2006 3:23 PM

GIANT

All very good analysis here. I think I'll add my two cents which basically are bits and pieces of everything else that's been said. I believe in the Book-Operative connection. He is too skilled to be one of the "important people that don't do field work." Personally, I think he was high in the Alliance network, probably one of the original operatives or in operative training. I believe he went out on assignment and something made him question his loyalties. He was high enough to be respected and allowed to retire, rather than be retired. He may have been high enough to know what was going on with the academy, which is why he seems to understand what makes River a special girl. Additionally, the comments in OiS, I think are the peoples secrets, particularly, Book's angst over the things he's done in his past, and his becoming a preacher is an attempt at redemption. I think one of the reasons why we never hear of it is because he's trying to put the past behind him. Although, that won't stop him from using his knowledge if it could help the crew out.

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Monday, September 18, 2006 4:27 PM

TRAVELER

I have wondered why Book refuses to talk of his past. Perhaps he does not want to live there. It is what he is doing now that means more to him. So he buries the past so he can live in the now.

I used to think Book was lieing about being a shepherd. But I have changed my mind. He does not just quote the Bible, but it is part of his life. In "Out of Gas" He tries to to find comfort in it when he believes he is about to die. "Faith fixes you" come from the heart.

Traveler

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 3:17 PM

BROWNCOATJIM

here's what I took from that, and part of Joss's brilliance is the way that so much is left wide open to interpretation......Agree with me if you like, or tell me I'm off my rocker, the great part of it all is that we are all right in our interpretations, because we all see it from a different angle.

Anyhow, I think that the good shephard harbors one hell of a guilty conscience, and that he entered the abbey originally to "get right with God". I infered that Book was having a flashback to interrogating a prisoner, and that he must have been one sonofabitch to deal with.

Again, that's what I got from it all, and maybe, just maybe, someone of you will read that and something will click, and you may go off in a different direction from mine, but isn't that what makes this just so gorram much fun?

WE'RE GONNA CRASH? I DON'T WANNA CRASH!

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 3:22 PM

BROWNCOATJIM

See, now that's just great stuff! And that's what makes this show so damn brilliant, that we can all take a fairly innocuous line and go in so many directions with it.

I still think it all comes down to a very guilty conscience which he is always trying to hide. As devout as he is, and as ready as he is to die for his faith, in "Out of Gas" he is quite terrified of, in my opinion, not dying so much as having to go and face an account of his life.

WE'RE GONNA CRASH? I DON'T WANNA CRASH!

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Friday, September 29, 2006 11:21 AM

PRIVATEDECLAN

If you remember all those previous weird things Book says, you might notice that he knows a lot about Niska. There was also his eagerness to help the crew attack Niska's base to save Mal. So maybe Book used to have something to do with Niska or the whole space-gangster scene.

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Friday, September 29, 2006 2:45 PM

USMCHELLRAISER

There are a lot of points in this thread, but something I keep seeing that I marvel at is the fact that most browncoats don't think you can 'retire' out of Covert Ops.

I happen to know someone who did that sort of thing and now owns a pancake and waffle joint. It does happen.

And, guys in the military at any Operating level are privy to all sorts of things that we're not supposed to talk about. Every unit's S-2 shop (INTEL) has secrets in locked filing cabinets that would make our media go ape-stuff.

I am only a Corporal in the Marine Corps and I know more than I wish I did.

Extra: I know another guy who did 'stuff' and he is a teacher now. A lot of those guys throughout historical and modern times retire out of looking for evil in a sea of evil worldwide and find themselves trying to actually 'enjoy' whatever is left of their life when they retire/quit/whatever.

In the military, only Officers and devout warfighters read the metaphysical/existential stuff about war and conflict with any passion. A line company enlisted infantryman has a completely different line of skills/knowledge to learn. Strategy is left to the shiny-collared. Officers are very protective of their own, and with good reason. An ex-Colonel for instance might have gotten out years ago, but if that was the case, what rank do you think his buddies who stayed IN are by now? Hmmm...

I don't think Book was an Operative, (but who knows- I mean, do Operatives even use firearms/lasers that much?)

On the core planets (where I imagine Operatives spend the majority of their time), you don't walk around with a wepon without calling way too much attention- also, since the disarmed the population, why would you need one?

Book as a Lawman: Maybe after the military thing but before Shephardisness. But We have seen the Alliance not give a damn about local cops before. Even if Book was former Core Planet lawman, why would they let them go no questions asked?

With his shooting skills, education, desire for secrecy, and what-not, I would expect former Officer, maybe with whateveer the equivalent of their Spec-Ops is. Special Forces are the guys who make contact with indigenous people in hostile areas, that would explain his knowledge of a powerful criminal like Niska, who is on the raggedy-edge like the rest of them, regardless of his influence and affluence there.

Man, wiht all of this intellect, why can't we figure out how to get our show back??!?

"...let's not ruin an otherwise pleasant day with unnecessary bloodshed..."

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Friday, September 28, 2007 9:26 AM

NISKASDOG

I think Sheppard Book was one of the folks that was Security head for the Miranda Project. After that plan failed in total disaster, he retired or took a leave of absence from the alliance. That's why he got immediate medical attention in 'Safe" and also knew an aweful lot about the weapons the assassins used along with the shuttle type used when Mal and Wash were kidnapped by Niska's men.

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Friday, September 28, 2007 9:30 AM

WYTCHCROFT

interesting theory -
there's a couple on the board right now again re. Book - http://fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=30774
for example.
are you related to Domsdafirda?

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Friday, September 28, 2007 9:39 AM

NISKASDOG

Me? Nope not that I know of. But as to my theory I cannot for the life of me come up with a better scenario. I also believe that was one reason that Book did not go with Mal and the rest to Miranda because he did not want to face what he had been part of.

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Sunday, September 30, 2007 9:49 AM

FREEBROWNCOAT

Book as an Operative is good EXCEPT when he shows an ID Card to get treatment when he knew he was dying and desperate. Alliance naval officers would never know his identity and it's unlikely a covert and highly secretive organization would give out an ID card saying he was part of it.

Now an Alliance hero, yes that makes sense in every way except him knowing of Niska. The Niska connection and Book's knowledge if weapons tends to lead to Intelligence or high command position. Special forces entirely likely here also. With either, knowing sniper rifles is consistent, one is their use, the other in seeing their effects on his troops or in directing them against opposition troops.

If high command is true it could lead to him being responsible for the Alliance victory at Serenity Valley, though that one is pretty thin. Treat Mal well to make up for Mal's trauma at his hands? I can see it but thin ice.

So, Joss left clues but far too few and with too much to be read into any of them. Since he has killed Book and, as sad as it is to think about, there is litlle likelihood of seeing Serenity 2 or anything similar in the near future, I would love it if Joss would give us a few more clues that would lead to the truth.

Then again, it sure is a lot of fun trying to go on inadequate information to come to a logical conclusion. A definitive conclusion is clearly impoossible right now.

"I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not. So where does that leave you?"

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Sunday, September 30, 2007 10:22 AM

WYTCHCROFT

i agree - joss left clues to ponder before revealing whatever he really had up his sleeve -
i'm not sure we know much about Shepherds (the abbey etc) let alone Book - or Operatives.

Had Joss even thought up the Operative when he created Book... doubtful -

however, I LIKE the idea of Book as Operative
and i could swallow the notion of a fake ID to show alliance people.

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Tuesday, October 2, 2007 8:53 PM

BRINGITBACK

I noticed it was mentioned in this thread that Book couldnt be an operative because he didnt know about Miranda.

Lets say Book is in his early 40's.. The events at Miranda happened 10 years previous. I believe that he would have left the Government by then after some of the attrocities that he was involved in during the war.

As far as a few other things go... I'm still not convinced that we was an operative (or atleast the same kind of operative we had seen in Serenity)

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Sunday, October 14, 2007 12:00 PM

RIVERFLAN

Gorram it, a double post!

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Sunday, October 14, 2007 12:14 PM

RIVERFLAN

Quote:
Originally posted by ability6:
Quote:
Originally posted by Leebo:
Book can't be an alliance operative, acting or retired.

If he had been then the Alliance Ship would NOT have operated on his wound in Safe. Think about that for a moment.

If he's an operative, than the Alliance could not risk giving him any special treatment specifically BECAUSE it would prove he was an operative. Book's not always the bravest, but he's far from a coward, and he wouldn't have revealed the ID Badge if that were the case. As in Mission Impossible, the Alliance "would disavow any involvement" in his actions and that means treating him like a regular joe when he's been shot.

I agree, an operative would not be permitted to just go his own way, as evidenced by Chiwetel Ejiofor's parting line in the BDM. Yet, this circumstance makes Book all that more intriguing, as he knows exactly what kind of trouble an operative can be, "trouble you've not known." My guess is not too many people wander around with that kind of knowledge.

Um, actually, I disagree.

See, people, get old. They get slow. This counts for operatives, too. So, you're thinking that the Alliance would get rid of them. Kill them. The problem with that, though, is that operatives would probably have some way of communicating news. At least to the point that they would notice old operatives disappearing. Then no one would volunteer to be an operative cause they don't wanna get killed, and I don't think you could force people to become operatives.

The Alliance, or at least people inside the Alliance, are too smart for that. So, once their operatives get old, they'd let them retire peacefully. It's safe enough- I recall someone above saying it wasn't the Alliance Book hated- it was his own past. And Book was in a monestary. He isn't going to spill the beans.

And that explains how Book got that instant medical service. They don't want to have other operatives to see that they treat retired operatives like crap. Basic economics. Besides, Book probably did a lot of good for the Alliance, so there might be a collective feeling of gratitude.

That's just my theory about Book. As for Inara dying, that's iffy, but not downright impossible. I don't belive it personally myself, but I won't argue with you, as there is almost evidence to support either of our theorys.

Sorry about the lenghty post.

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Sunday, October 14, 2007 1:12 PM

WYTCHCROFT

Quote:
Originally posted by RiverFlan:

See, people, get old. They get slow. This counts for operatives, too. So, you're thinking that the Alliance would get rid of them. Kill them. The problem with that, though, is that operatives would probably have some way of communicating news. At least to the point that they would notice old operatives disappearing.

that would make a great fic!!

Quote:
Then no one would volunteer to be an operative cause they don't wanna get killed, and I don't think you could force people to become operatives.

oh they could probably find ways and means...

Quote:
And that explains how Book got that instant medical service. They don't want to have other operatives to see that they treat retired operatives like crap. Basic economics.

i can see your point!

personally - i still think that if Book was 'deep' cover or had been as an operative, then he would have a number of ready IDs available. (Like Bourne, Bond et al)

after all - the BDM Operative says "I don't exist". So his health cover is probably false - don't want a pesky case of apendicitus taking out our strong right hand now do we??

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Monday, October 15, 2007 4:24 AM

ASARIAN

Personally, I think Book is a contrite man, having either killed too many people himself, or having caused their death indirectly (through indifference). The "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not. So where does that put you?" flashback, in that regard, speaks volumes. I don't think it was a literal flashback, but more like Book seeing River, and caring for her, and thinking back to what kind of man he used to be.

At any rate, Book has resolved never to kill any more (or allow to be killed, through his indifference). I believe he has a particular hang-up about allowing harm to come to the innocent -- which is, again, what the 'flashback' with River is all about: he sees innocence before him, and is actually reminded of his own vows never to see the innocent get hurt while he's around. The real strong opposition to killing folks only kicks in when it looks like he's gonna be personally responsible for their deaths.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Monday, October 15, 2007 4:43 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Freebrowncoat:
Book as an Operative is good EXCEPT when he shows an ID Card to get treatment when he knew he was dying and desperate. Alliance naval officers would never know his identity and it's unlikely a covert and highly secretive organization would give out an ID card saying he was part of it.

Frak! You are so right. Remember this convo in the BDM?

"I see no listing of rank or name."
"I have neither. Like this facility, I don't exist."

The point? An Ident Card that had Book's name on it can't possibly have revealed his identity as an Operative, too! (sic!) So, following that logic, his Ident Card must have stated something generic, like: "Military clearance, level 5." Or some such.

And later Book explains to Mal that, indeed, Operatives work kinda off the grid:

"Much as they want her, they want her hid. That means closed file. Means an Operative."

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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