FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Subtle yet interesting show observations -- post yours

POSTED BY: ANIMALM0THER
UPDATED: Friday, December 7, 2007 09:19
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Thursday, December 21, 2006 3:41 PM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Bagheera:

Quote:

Originally posted by asarian:


Seems River played Badger. From minute one.



I didnt think that was subtle, so much as obvious.

Perhaps it may have been too subtle for you to pick up on though, but I certainly dont think she was eavesdropping beforehand.



Sigh. There's just an acre of you fellas, ain't there?


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Thursday, December 21, 2006 4:00 PM

BAGHEERA


Hum.

One 'subtle' bit about that speech was...

Has River EVER lied ?

In both the "old homestead" and the "I'm not on the ship, I'm in the ship" speeches, she speaks literally, but is misinterpreted by those characters listening.

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Thursday, December 21, 2006 8:17 PM

ROMANCEGURU


I don’t know why I never noticed this before but in “Trash” when Kaylee is explaining their plan on how to sneak out the lassiter (sp?) and Saffron say’s to Kalyee “Oh, except it's idiotic.” it immediately cuts to Jayne mug and his expression that shouts how dare you say that to little Kaylee. I love it because it shows how much Jayne is in solidarity with his peeps.

What we need's a diversion. I say Zoe gets nekkid.

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Saturday, December 23, 2006 10:05 AM

KELAI


A thing I notice is that in the BDM when they are passing though Reaver space Jayne is cuddling Vera tightly as if its a comfort to him -- like a small child and a blanky.

_______________________

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Tuesday, December 26, 2006 6:09 PM

SKAYLA


In the episode 'serenity' when Mal is shooting that big gun at the alliance ship in the beggining.. it has this little orange thing on the screen for targeting the ship.. its pretty similar to the menu of the serenity dvd.


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Friday, December 29, 2006 3:20 PM

ASARIAN



In "Ariel", it is widely believed that River slices Jayne with a knife because she's somehow triggered by his Blue Sun T-shirt. But since Jayne is wearing the same Blue Sun T-shirt all throughout Bushwhacked, and River seems just fine with it, that notion has always bothered me.

... until, yesterday, it finally dawned on me what makes River's trigger accute. 'Bout four seconds earlier, River overhears Wash say:

WASH
So, two days in a hospital, huh?
(Inara nods)
That's awful. DON'T YOU JUST HATE DOCTORS?

That's it! There's a two-second comic interlude ("Don't be excluding people, that's just rude,") after which River comes at Jayne with a kitchen knife.

And, O my, was it even a comic interlude?? Or was River simply doing EXACTLY what Jayne said? Namely, while having an unpleasant flashback, "not excluding" him from being cut on?

Pieces are beginning to fall into place.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sunday, December 31, 2006 4:50 PM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Bagheera:

Quote:

Originally posted by asarian:


Seems River played Badger. From minute one.



I didnt think that was subtle, so much as obvious.

Perhaps it may have been too subtle for you to pick up on though, but I certainly dont think she was eavesdropping beforehand. She simply displayed the uncanny intuition she always had (or as wash would put it the "scifi-ish psychic ability")




*soft smile* Now, that's why it's subtle. :) Cuz the "obvious" thing is to just assume River was being highly intuitive and masterfully adapting to the situation. But, as Inara would say, nothing here is what it seems. Or rather, Joss generally sets things up in such a way that things could easily NOT be what they seem. And he can be called downright skillful, to the Nth degree, as there's no obvious conclusion to gravitate towards. Could be Book was a former Operative; could be he was a former Alliance commander; but whatever he was, Joss always leaves us dangling. Similarly, could be River's just being intuitive; could be she was eavesdropping; could be she's a reader (there's a plethora of evidence for that, too);

In fact, when you watch Firefly over and over, you'll see a gradual build-up of hints pointing to River being a full reader. That build-up is subtle in and by itself, as all throughout Firefly Joss leaves just enough room open for other interpretations. She knows Jayne betrayed them at Ariel; and in Safe she can read Ruby's mind. And in Objects in Space Simon, very subtlely, seems to be less than entirely forthright when he says "She's deeply intuitive." (which the Captain, at that point no longer buys). And she knows eerily much about Early's youth, and the things he has done:

River: "Big golden retriever, sitting on the lawn. Never took to you. Smell on you, the neighbors pets, you did things to 'em... cleaned up after."

But with all these examples, one could still argue something else than reader. She could have guessed about Early's past; or just have picked up on Jayne's hightened sense of nervousness after Ariel (which the entire crew seemed to notice, btw). Etc. Culminating, finally, in "full disclosure" at the end of the BDM, where Mal literally spells it out that River's a full reader:

Mal: "... since you already know what I'm about to say."
River: "I do. But I like to hear you say it."

And even then, it's not entirely clear WHEN River unlocked her full reader potential. Maybe the Miranda stuff blocked it partially; or could be she just grew better and better at it over time. Or could be she could do it all along.

At any rate, I believe that if there's anything really obvious in Firefly, then it is that there's nothing really obvious.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Monday, January 1, 2007 11:19 AM

BAGHEERA


Quote:


*soft smile* Now, that's why it's subtle. :) Cuz the "obvious" thing is to just assume River was being highly intuitive and masterfully adapting to the situation.



Indifference to the facts doesnt make something subtle or masterful... more like... unfinished and wishywashy.

You could also argue that River is actually a male operative posing as River, and that his imitation of the female gender is masterful subtlety on the part of the writers and actors... but thats a load of bunk too.


Quote:

Or rather, Joss generally sets things up in such a way that things could easily NOT be what they seem. And he can be called downright skillful, to the Nth degree, as there's no obvious conclusion to gravitate towards.


I understand that brownnosing the creators is a high-competition sport on any fanboard... but I believe you again misinterpret Indifference as Skill.

Quote:

Could be Book was a former Operative; could be he was a former Alliance commander; but whatever he was, Joss always leaves us dangling.


So, if the series hadnt been cancelled, and he'd been given time to write more pulp fiction, he would have been in effect less skillful ?

It takes more skill to do something right, then it does to not do it at all.


Quote:

Similarly, could be River's just being intuitive; could be she was eavesdropping; could be she's a reader (there's a plethora of evidence for that, too)


Evidence ? lol. Could be she's a reaver for all your logic there.

Quote:

In fact, when you watch Firefly over and over, you'll see a gradual build-up of hints pointing to River being a full reader.


I have. and I have also noticed that in Safe, she SPECIFICALLY and OPENLY states things that she could not have known any other way. Do you really think the headman in Safe spilled the beans on murder to River on a drunken bender or something ?

and that aint no "last episode in the series" that was the fourth to air... so your whole theory about subtle and slow introduction of the theory is bunk too.

Quote:

That build-up is subtle in and by itself, as all throughout Firefly Joss leaves just enough room open for other interpretations.


I got a friend that refuses to acknowledge any difference between colors or directions, blaming it on colorblindness and direction blindness... does this make north the same as south, or red the same as green ? No. They are still different, even if you are willfully blind.

Quote:

She knows Jayne betrayed them at Ariel; and in Safe she can read Ruby's mind.


Very odd, I thought you had just argued that she WASNT a reader... very subtle of you to be arguing both sides of something so that you can retreat to whichever you deign to be safest.

Quote:

And in Objects in Space Simon, very subtlely, seems to be less than entirely forthright when he says "She's deeply intuitive."


again... not subtle. Simon has already shown and told the crew that he will lie, cheat, steal, whatever to protect River.

Quote:

And she knows eerily much about Early's youth, and the things he has done:

River: "Big golden retriever, sitting on the lawn. Never took to you. Smell on you, the neighbors pets, you did things to 'em... cleaned up after."

But with all these examples, one could still argue something else than reader. She could have guessed about Early's past;



thats not really subtle... but when he says "You're in my ship" subtlety might lead you to relate his ship with Serenity, and relate all that Serenity is to her crew... as being what his ship is to Early... and all that she had been railing about being Serenity and such...


Quote:

or just have picked up on Jayne's hightened sense of nervousness after Ariel


umm... she says something to the effect of "He's afraid we'll know he turned us in at Ariel"... so how the hell is that subtle ?

Subtlety lays more in the realm of "Did River deliberately instigate and encourage Jayne to turn on Simon and River, so that he would be able to move past his insecurities and become one with the crew ?"

That River reads mind is given and stated, and entirely not subtle. Whether she is precognitive or not lies more in the realm of subtlety though... (and whether she is simply applying her intuition to her reading abilities)

Quote:


And even then, it's not entirely clear WHEN River unlocked her full reader potential.



You're implying that she DID unlock her full potential, which would be completely unlike Joss... shows and characters dont get finished, they just die or get cancelled, sometimes permanently.

Quote:

Or could be she could do it all along.


considering that the entire premise behind the BDM was that she read someone while at the academy... i'm thinking she acquired her reading skills under their 'tutelage' or was that just too masterfully subtle for you ?

Quote:


At any rate, I believe that if there's anything really obvious in Firefly, then it is that there's nothing really obvious.



and the meaning of your above statement would prolly fall into the "nothing really obvious" category ?

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Monday, January 1, 2007 3:57 PM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Bagheera:

Quote:


*soft smile* Now, that's why it's subtle. :) Cuz the "obvious" thing is to just assume River was being highly intuitive and masterfully adapting to the situation.



Indifference to the facts doesnt make something subtle or masterful... more like... unfinished and wishywashy.

You could also argue that River is actually a male operative posing as River, and that his imitation of the female gender is masterful subtlety on the part of the writers and actors... but thats a load of bunk too.



Gotta say, Bagheera, your talent for alienating folks is near miraculous.

Quote:


Quote:

Or rather, Joss generally sets things up in such a way that things could easily NOT be what they seem. And he can be called downright skillful, to the Nth degree, as there's no obvious conclusion to gravitate towards.


I understand that brownnosing the creators is a high-competition sport on any fanboard... but I believe you again misinterpret Indifference as Skill.



Why, I sure hope he'd display enough indifference towards your imputed indifference. :)

Quote:


Quote:

Could be Book was a former Operative; could be he was a former Alliance commander; but whatever he was, Joss always leaves us dangling.


Quote:

Similarly, could be River's just being intuitive; could be she was eavesdropping; could be she's a reader (there's a plethora of evidence for that, too)


Evidence? lol. Could be she's a reaver for all your logic there.

Quote:

In fact, when you watch Firefly over and over, you'll see a gradual build-up of hints pointing to River being a full reader.


I have.



Only one installment ago you didn't even know who Harken was. So, you might wanna look to replenishing your knowledge of The Material.

Quote:


... and I have also noticed that in Safe, she SPECIFICALLY and OPENLY states things that she could not have known any other way. Do you really think the headman in Safe spilled the beans on murder to River on a drunken bender or something?



Dude. You just said: "Evidence? lol.". And now you're bashing me cuz there's too much evidence? LOL. Please, kindly decide which position you take; then argue for or against. But don't change your position mid-post, or you'll wind up trashing yourself -- which is all manner of fun to watch, but it tends to muck things up.

Quote:


and that aint no "last episode in the series" that was the fourth to air... so your whole theory about subtle and slow introduction of the theory is bunk too.



But wait; this whole tirade of yours starting with you blasting me cuz I was allegedly too daft to see the "obvious", namely that River was just being intuitive when playing Badger. I guess the "obvious" has a way of not being so obvious after all, don't it?

Quote:


Quote:

She knows Jayne betrayed them at Ariel; and in Safe she can read Ruby's mind.


Very odd, I thought you had just argued that she WASNT a reader...



Which part of "could be she's a reader (there's a plethora of evidence for that, too)" was confusing for you?

Quote:


Quote:

or just have picked up on Jayne's hightened sense of nervousness after Ariel


umm... she says something to the effect of "He's afraid we'll know he turned us in at Ariel"... so how the hell is that subtle?



As you might say: "She simply displayed the uncanny intuition she always had." Oops. :)

I'll give you "obvious". But YOU then please make up your mind between "obviously she's just uncannily intutitive" and "obviously she's a reader". You can't have your cookie and beat it.

Quote:


Subtlety lays more in the realm of "Did River deliberately instigate and encourage Jayne to turn on Simon and River, so that he would be able to move past his insecurities and become one with the crew?"



No, that's just you grasping for straws you long since ran out of.

Quote:


Quote:

Or could be she could do it all along.


considering that the entire premise behind the BDM was that she read someone while at the academy... i'm thinking she acquired her reading skills under their 'tutelage' or was that just too masterfully subtle for you?



Considering that Firefly was aired before the BDM, all throughout Firefly none of us knowed that yet. Or was that just too masterfully subtle for you? You obviously also missed the part where I suggested the Miranda stuff may have partially blocked her abilities (until her liberating catharsis at Miranda, perhaps?).

Anyhow, you should have said all of this when you started pontificating about River simply displaying the uncanny intuition she always had. Now, doing a full U-turn within only two posts, you just look silly.

Quote:


Quote:


At any rate, I believe that if there's anything really obvious in Firefly, then it is that there's nothing really obvious.



and the meaning of your above statement would prolly fall into the "nothing really obvious" category ?



They tell you never to hit a man with a closed mind; but it is, on occassion, hilarious. :)

I gotta say, you're quite a rude individual. Maybe you shoulda stuck with your wiles. In all seriousness, I never back down from a fight, but I'm backing down from this one. Remember when Mal said: "I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed."? Well... I don't consider you armed.

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Tuesday, January 2, 2007 9:03 PM

KEVINGREY


Quote:

River mouths the words, "The people here stopped fighting" along with the Alliance doctor, kinda hinting that this was the big secret she knew - because you can obviously not read the mind of a hologram, so she couldn't know what she was about to say like when she mouthed words alongside Mal earlier in the movie.


Quote:

But with all these examples, one could still argue something else than reader. She could have guessed about Early's past; or just have picked up on Jayne's hightened sense of nervousness after Ariel (which the entire crew seemed to notice, btw). Etc. Culminating, finally, in "full disclosure" at the end of the BDM, where Mal literally spells it out that River's a full reader:

Mal: "... since you already know what I'm about to say."
River: "I do. But I like to hear you say it."

And even then, it's not entirely clear WHEN River unlocked her full reader potential. Maybe the Miranda stuff blocked it partially; or could be she just grew better and better at it over time. Or could be she could do it all along.



One thing I haven’t seen anyone mention thus far, is prescience. Psychometry, telepathy and others have been mentioned, but in OoG, I believe she mentions “fire” twice, each time, Simon thinking she’s talking about the candles on his cake, before the explosion occurs.

In this, there were no minds to read, no objects to read. It really could only have been a “foretelling”. Also with finding the back route out of the hospital in Ariel. Though, arguably, she could have plucked it from a random mind, her control over telepathy seems quite limited when there are more than one or two minds about to be dealt with.

Limited prescience, to my mind is of much more use to an “Assassin”, than strict telepathy since such could be quite muddled in the midst of many minds, especially in the case of the battle with the Reavers. However, having a limited prescience would allow one to foresee actions and react ahead of schedule, as-it-were. Always allowing one to be a “step ahead” when clear and focused.

This isn’t to say that she isn’t also a telepath and/or psychometrist. However, I don’t really see any chance for either of these to have given her foresight of the “fire” in OoG.

Having recently re-read the Dune series, this calls all sorts of possibilities to mind as well. First of all, in the case of the Government/Corporate interest, there would be much more interest in someone with prescience, then there would be in someone with simple telepathy.

In addition, the potential for storyline is immense and I could envision a future where River, having gained some control of her mind and abilities, suddenly becomes certain of a given future potential and comes up against Mal’s innate freedom and choice sense; one who would assuredly balk at the idea of a given destiny.
For myself, in the “subtlety” angle, I think to when River woke up in the hospital on Ariel with the “Copper for a kiss,” remark and the sudden confusion on her face as she assessed Jayne. Quite quick the play of emotions, to me and it seemed that in one moment, she reacted to his reaction, then in the next, sensed something else going on with Jayne and realized what it was.

I likewise think that the “sudden brain activity” that was missed by Simon, and her subsequent scream was in prescient response to the Blue Hands’ imminent arrival.

Just my take on it all of course.

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Tuesday, January 2, 2007 9:26 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Did anybody else notice that Saffron is like.... super fine?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, January 2, 2007 9:42 PM

FOLLOWMAL


Quote:

Originally posted by KevinGrey:
Quote:

River mouths the words, "The people here stopped fighting" along with the Alliance doctor, kinda hinting that this was the big secret she knew - because you can obviously not read the mind of a hologram, so she couldn't know what she was about to say like when she mouthed words alongside Mal earlier in the movie.


Quote:

But with all these examples, one could still argue something else than reader. She could have guessed about Early's past; or just have picked up on Jayne's hightened sense of nervousness after Ariel (which the entire crew seemed to notice, btw). Etc. Culminating, finally, in "full disclosure" at the end of the BDM, where Mal literally spells it out that River's a full reader:

Mal: "... since you already know what I'm about to say."
River: "I do. But I like to hear you say it."

And even then, it's not entirely clear WHEN River unlocked her full reader potential. Maybe the Miranda stuff blocked it partially; or could be she just grew better and better at it over time. Or could be she could do it all along.



One thing I haven’t seen anyone mention thus far, is prescience. Psychometry, telepathy and others have been mentioned, but in OoG, I believe she mentions “fire” twice, each time, Simon thinking she’s talking about the candles on his cake, before the explosion occurs.

In this, there were no minds to read, no objects to read. It really could only have been a “foretelling”. Also with finding the back route out of the hospital in Ariel. Though, arguably, she could have plucked it from a random mind, her control over telepathy seems quite limited when there are more than one or two minds about to be dealt with.

Limited prescience, to my mind is of much more use to an “Assassin”, than strict telepathy since such could be quite muddled in the midst of many minds, especially in the case of the battle with the Reavers. However, having a limited prescience would allow one to foresee actions and react ahead of schedule, as-it-were. Always allowing one to be a “step ahead” when clear and focused.

This isn’t to say that she isn’t also a telepath and/or psychometrist. However, I don’t really see any chance for either of these to have given her foresight of the “fire” in OoG.

Having recently re-read the Dune series, this calls all sorts of possibilities to mind as well. First of all, in the case of the Government/Corporate interest, there would be much more interest in someone with prescience, then there would be in someone with simple telepathy.

In addition, the potential for storyline is immense and I could envision a future where River, having gained some control of her mind and abilities, suddenly becomes certain of a given future potential and comes up against Mal’s innate freedom and choice sense; one who would assuredly balk at the idea of a given destiny.
For myself, in the “subtlety” angle, I think to when River woke up in the hospital on Ariel with the “Copper for a kiss,” remark and the sudden confusion on her face as she assessed Jayne. Quite quick the play of emotions, to me and it seemed that in one moment, she reacted to his reaction, then in the next, sensed something else going on with Jayne and realized what it was.

I likewise think that the “sudden brain activity” that was missed by Simon, and her subsequent scream was in prescient response to the Blue Hands’ imminent arrival.

Just my take on it all of course.



KevinGrey,

I'm a believer in the same theory that Asarian has posited on this subject... but I have to say you brought up something I've barely touched on in conversations and articulated it so very well. I think you're absolutely right. River is prescient.. perhaps in a limited fashion and perhaps Joss meant that ability to flourish as time went by.

As a Dune lover.... I "get" how much she's like an Honored Matre ( did I spell that right? I don't have Chaperhouse: Dune yet )... wild, full of powers too awesome to imagine and a crazy ability to perhaps know the future thrown in.

Oh, the stories left to tell.. and I think you hit it dead on with your thoughts on Mal not being able to accept some future she posits as possible and dangerous to them.

Great thinking and thank you for adding it.

Quote:

Originally posted by: 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Did anybody else notice that Saffron is like.... super fine?



Whoa dude... did anybody else notice that the guy playing Mal is like yo... super fine?

Ask me how to join The Appreciatin' Nathan Crew!
Go to www.goodworkspresents.org to find out how to honor the Captain!

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Wednesday, January 3, 2007 9:18 PM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

Did anybody else notice that Saffron is like.... super fine?




(Special) Hell, yeah! She's all kinds of pleasing! :)


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Thursday, January 4, 2007 4:01 PM

BEKKAHTHEFIREFLYFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Avatar37:
"In the very last scene with Inara, when she tells Mal she doesn't know if she wants to leave, she has absolutely no makeup on. I have to go back through the shows, but I think that is the first time she has ever been on with no makeup. It was like she was giving up being a Companion. Again, I have to double check, and if I am wrong, please let me know."

I don't think she was giving up being a companion so much as finally feeling comfortable enough around Mal and Serenity as to finally start treating it like her home. Previously, she always made a point that the shuttle was her home. I think, in her own way, it was her way of showing Mal that she loves him.



Uh, can I point out that about 3 minutes prior to this scene, she's up on the side of Serenity, repainting her badge... I think it might have something to do with her focusing on making Serenity beautiful again, applying Serenity's makeup, if you will... the focus is off Inara and Inara's identify being wrapped up in being a companion, and it has turned to Inara being identified as part of Serenity.

I think.
:o)

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Friday, January 5, 2007 1:09 AM

TATHRASEVENTEEN


Out of Gas: when Zoe asks Mal what the thing on the cargo hold floor was and Mal says it must have been something living there, Zoe is actually standing right over the place where the wounded Mal lying is in the present-day storyline.

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Saturday, January 6, 2007 4:55 PM

DJTOES


Quote:

It's as it should be, as sound doesn't travel in space -- or so I've heard.


YES! That made me very happy to see that. It's the frist sci-fi show that i've seen or not heard that. (ha. i crack myself up).

I like seeing all the ads for things when the crew is planet side. Seeing all the Blue Sun stuff in the background. Oh and in Serenity...when they're in the bar. The news reel that's playing is about the Reaver attack and the robbery (well, more like the people surviving in the vault). I just picked up on this when i watched it last. Sweet!

"When you can't run, you crawl. When you can't crawl, when you can't do that...You find someone to carry you."

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Saturday, January 6, 2007 5:20 PM

DJTOES



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Saturday, January 6, 2007 5:20 PM

DJTOES


Quote:

Originally posted by Cruithne3753:
Quote:

Originally posted by Nytegaunt:
From "The Message" when we learn that Jayne has a sick brother named Matty .... brothers who both share feminine sounding names.



*Ahem* That would be an endearment of Matthew... which just happens to be my name.



Yeah, I don't think there's anything feminine meant by it. But that letter did get me thinking. I know Jayne's all about Jayne. But why is he so into money. So much to betray the crew. or at least Simon and River. I was thinking maybe part of Jayne is so into money,
1. for himself, cause, hey, buying food, and his many weapons adds up.
or
2. He's close to his family. For such a bad ass, he was very fond of his hat from his mother. As I recall, he wore it the entire episode. So yeah, got to thinking. Maybe he's so into money because he wants to help his family. In the letter, it was said that he forwarded some credits. Maybe he's paying for his brother Matty's treatment. Adam Baldwin said that he always wanted to met Jayne's parents. Joss could have done something cool with that. See a softer side of Jayne.

Just a thought.

"When you can't run, you crawl. When you can't crawl, when you can't do that...You find someone to carry you."

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Saturday, January 6, 2007 5:22 PM

DJTOES


-_- i hate it when my computer fails at posting things.

"When you can't run, you crawl. When you can't crawl, when you can't do that...You find someone to carry you."

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Sunday, January 7, 2007 5:50 PM

BEKKAHTHEFIREFLYFAN


Quote:

This one's from the BDM:

Did anyone else notice that the Operative only calls Mal "Mal" after he stabs him during the big fight at the end? It's weird!

Before, he only called him "Captain" or "Malcolm", very formal, very proper. But they're fighting, there's the stab...and a look of almost regret passes over the Operative's face, and he murmurs, "Do you know what your sin is...Mal?"

It's almost like only then does he respect the man enough to use the more familiar term. To be almost friendly, in a way.

It's like now, he knows Mal well enough to acknowledge it.

Very subtle, but a very nice touch.

Heh, there's also the benefit that I had to watch the movie all over again just to be sure I hadn't just imagined it. Woo-hoo!


{/quote]
Sorry to bust that one up, but he actually calls him 'Mal' when he is talking to him on the wave to Serenity after he's put fire to Haven...

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Sunday, January 7, 2007 6:11 PM

BEKKAHTHEFIREFLYFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Xeyra:
Quote:

Originally posted by pingjing:
Quote:

Originally posted by Volk564:
...three (most likely one): River wasn't screaming about the fact that Jayne said "we gotta book," but that she knows where they're going to Book too - namely, a trap, or four: none of the above, and I'm just crazy.
Just a thought.



I think it's the third option. The brain screen goes kind of crazy right before she starts screaming, which I think might indicate that it is recording her psychic powers. But, if I recall correctly, Simon isn't looking at the screen at that moment, he's looking at Jayne. (Haven't watched it in awhile, so I could be wrong). So he misses the whole thing. Of course, according to the escape in the BDM, I guess he already knows.

Hope that means you aren't crazy ;)


It is my understanding that when Jayne says they have to go (does he say they gotta book? Didn't notice that), that's when the image of River's brain starts acting up, showing all the areas of her brain that are reacting to her psychic understanding of Jayne's betrayal, reason why she then screams. And Simon is looking at Jayne, yes, so he does miss it. It is a really interesting scene because Ariel is one of those episodes where River's psychic abilities become startling real to the viewer...




He actually says 'we gotta do this by the book' which is, incidentally a whopping lie... which may be why River reacted...

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Sunday, January 7, 2007 6:22 PM

BEKKAHTHEFIREFLYFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by asarian:

Shindig.

I've always wondered how long River's been listening in on Badger and henchmen before she wandered in, allegedly all confused. And this because River says: "Now you're what, petty thief with delusions of standing?"

What standing? Or rather, what standing that River knows of? It can really only refer to her having overheard Badger say: "Persephone's my home. I gotta do business with the people here. I don't want it known I brought someone in caused this kinda ruckus." But that convo took place several minutes ago. Which means River has been eavesdropping for quite a bit, all the way through the crew discussing strategy, and up and until Jayne's "We need a diversion." Then River happens to wander in, and provides one (the idea of the possibility of Jayne getting nekkid was probably too much for her to stomach, lol).

Seems River played Badger. From minute one.



Someone posted a while ago about Badger cutting up his apple like Mal and Zoe do...
Interestingly enough, River makes the comment in her little cockney homily that 'she's known plenty like him before... skipped off a little early...'
From what? ...ahuh! River knows he was a deserter... but from which side? Was he, per-maybe-haps one of the Alliance fighters who used the old apple trick...? Or one of the receivers of said nastiness (clearly not ACTUAL receiver, otherwise he'd be ended at the ribcage!)?

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Monday, January 8, 2007 5:05 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by KevinGrey:

One thing I haven’t seen anyone mention thus far, is prescience. Psychometry, telepathy and others have been mentioned, but in OoG, I believe she mentions “fire” twice, each time, Simon thinking she’s talking about the candles on his cake, before the explosion occurs.

In this, there were no minds to read, no objects to read. It really could only have been a “foretelling”.



KevinGrey,

I'm definitely with you on the prescience (or precognition, as I generally call it; though I suppose the former is a subset of the latter; but I digress). Your OoG example is as good as irrefutable: no way she could have knowed about the fire unless she foreknew (one could argue that perhaps, sub-consciously, she picked up on a weird vibe of the engine or some such; but that still don't explain her ability to foresee the upcoming fire).

There's a similar moment in Ariel:

RIVER
(to Simon)
You have to help him.

SIMON
River, we don't have time to...

RIVER
(loud)
He's killing him!

Now, River, smart as she is, ain't no Doctor. Even if she knew what the young Intern was going to administer, she doesn't know Alprazaline, combined with droxine, is going to kill the man. And she really couldn't have read the Intern's mind about it either, as the poor lad was himself oblivious to the fact that this combination is lethal!

Your subtle observations also bring me to OiS. River walks up to a laughing Simon and Kaylee, then hears Simon say: "I would be there right now." It is generally believed she's reading Simon's (subconscious) mind at the time. And this is very well possible. But Simon also just happens to repeat that exact same line later in the episode, as he's standing in the hallway, with Kaylee:

SIMON
I'm... I thought the hospital was
home. I was really making a
difference there... and
embarrassingly large stacks of money,
and I could've... I WOULD BE THERE
RIGHT NOW if she hadn't...

Granted, that's not as strong; but with all the prescience going on, who knows.

Just my two coppers. :)


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 1:01 PM

ASARIAN



In The Train Job, when River was having her flashbacks, leaps off the bed, and, still disoriented, starts to walk about sick bay. She can be seen to walk under one of the ship's surgical lamps, and is immediately triggered again, it seems, as she frantically covers her face for that exact moment. Never noticed that before.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 1:19 PM

FIZZIX


Quote:

Originally posted by Misstressahara:
Well, since I haven't seen it mentioned by anyone else, and it came to be a topic of conversation a few years earlier I can proudly be the one to bring it up.

In the movie when Mal is in his room looking at the video of Inarah (this is lead from the line Kaylee makes about pushing Inarah away) they pan out to show him sitting watching the vid, (you must look close, it goes by quick) what do we see in front of him? Can you see? Can you see? Hup, that's right kiddies, it's his toilet, his john, his thrown, seat down. I didn't see it until the second viewing, but when I did I
re-wround and paused and sure enough, there it is. Joss did it, he got the FIRST toilet in space. Good on ya Joss.

There are more from the tv, but I won't mention them for now. I love these threads.

If I'm a bitch, then life just got interesting.


I saw that one as well; I just wasn't paying attention, 'cause I've no attention span. but, heh, not the FIRST, 'cause there was one in the series. It just folded up.

/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\
May not be smart, and it may not please you, but you're definitely gonna see what I have to say.

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 1:51 PM

DONCOAT


Actually, Kubrick had the first toilet in space, in 2001: A Space Odyssey.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 2:18 PM

KEVINGREY



Quote:

Great thinking and thank you for adding it.


My pleasure, FollowMal. I’m glad you found something of value in it.

Quote:

I'm definitely with you on the prescience (or precognition, as I generally call it; though I suppose the former is a subset of the latter; but I digress).


Asarian:

I would agree, either could apply.

Although, precognition, for me, is the action itself. Prescience is more applied to the presence of the ability or action, as I understand it. One can say: “I am precognitive,” though, generally that is applied to dreams, or other abilities, rather than to an individual.

Although they busted this all to hell in Minority Report. :P

I think some of the confusion on this stems from associations with “Clairvoyance” (Prescience) and “Clairvoyant” as adjective or noun, depending on usage. She is clairvoyant or she is a clairvoyant are both considered correct.

No stress about it though. Even dictionaries disagree in this and I think they don’t establish a rule, simply because most people don’t even accept such as likely.

Generally, the rule I follow for myself is:

The individual would be prescient, who has, or engages in, precognition or precognitive phenomena. Prescience, is the presence of precognitive abilities, or precognition as a functioning ability.

If someone where to say:

He is precognitive.

Then they would actually be saying that he is here, without cognitive functioning as explanation for his presence.

Which, can be applicable, under certain circumstances.

And it’s nicer than just saying “He has his head up his ass.”

So, the next time you wish to impart a shot that may not be heard before it hits, just tell them they are “precognitive”.

Just make sure they haven’t read this post, first.

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Wednesday, January 17, 2007 3:47 AM

MISTERSOLIDUS


Quote:

Originally posted by darthvider:
In "Trash", when Jayne and Kaylee are climbing on top of the ship to reprogram the garbage bin, you see Jayne trying to put the line card (or whatever it is) back in the slot. This is before he gets shocked and knocked out.

Anybody ever notice what's on the screen beside him? It's VERY noticable if you know what you're looking at. It's a Windows 2000 desktop. You can very clearly see the Start button, the Task bar (with programs running), the default icons on the left-hand side, even the bloody task tray. The biggest thing that caught my attention was the giant InstallShield window right in the middle of the screen, taking up three-quarters of it. It's clear enough that you can almost read "Next" and "Cancel" on the buttons.

Please don't tell me Microsoft is alive and well 500 years in the future!



You also can see the Windoze screen saver around that part too. The one with the logo going to different parts of the screen. Serious lawls.


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Saturday, January 27, 2007 4:45 AM

GIGGLYORONINOMICON


This is more of a continuity error but in 'Jaynestown' right before the party sees the statue there is a behind the back shot of them walking and right on Kaylees booty there there are a bunch oil handprints (her wiping her hands off) but one of those handprints has a thumb on the wrong side *wink wink nudge nudge*

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Monday, January 29, 2007 12:16 AM

JERAXUS


there were explosions in the BDM - like when mal shoots the mini reaver ship blowing it up

play with the best die like the rest

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Monday, January 29, 2007 12:25 AM

JERAXUS


you are an idiot

check the pilot episode for serenity - mal pushes the toilet away and zips up when wash calls him on the coms to tell him theres a mole on board

loser


play with the bestdie like the rest

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Monday, January 29, 2007 10:18 PM

VIOLYNS


I really love this thread. I had read up there somewhere someone saying that Jayne wears his hat that he got in "The Message" in the BDM when leaving the ship for the Maidenhead. He is throwing up a hood that is around his neck, I believe. It's shown here in the Propstore of London pics.



And on another note: a few friends and I have discussed the "popcorn ball" artwork in the common area in the series. It's best seen at the beginning of "Safe" during Simon and River's argument.

-----
~mia
"I'll never cease to fly if held down."

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Thursday, February 8, 2007 6:55 PM

SEANCJ


Mal's scars in the BDM!
Did you all notice that Mal has all the appropriate scars from the series knife/sword/gunshot wounds!
You can see them in the scene where he gets up to answer Inara's 'wave'.
He has the right shoulder/upper chest scar from Crowe's thrown blade.
He has the right side scar from Atherton's tricksy sword play.
AND...
He has the left shoulder/upper arm scar from Patient's gun shot graze.
That is just priceless that they would remember all of those!
I just watched 'Done The Impossible' and 'Serenity'. Yep, I'm addicted!



"You wanna run this ship?"
"Yes"
"Well,...you can't"

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Thursday, February 8, 2007 6:59 PM

SEANCJ


Oh, I also noticed that they missed a scene in Serenity where they were supposed to superimpose Inara's 'dart/crossbow/thingy' over the regular bow and arrow she was really carrying. If you watch closely, you can see her clearly holding a bow with an arrow pointing towards the door. It happens shortly before the fighting starts.


"You wanna run this ship?"
"Yes"
"Well,...you can't"

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Friday, February 9, 2007 5:16 AM

CLJOHNSTON108


As an Atheist, I really enjoy the digs Joss and his writers take at religion (some more subtle than others).

My favorite was Simon's line in "War Stories", after Book's invoked the writings of Shan Yu: "Sadistic crap legitimized by florid prose. ... Tell me you're not a fan."

In talking with other less-than-religious Browncoats, I'm apparently the only one who saw it as a direct swipe at the Bible.

________________________

"Spry for a dead fella!"

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Saturday, February 10, 2007 2:59 PM

DONCOAT


I watched "Our Mrs. Reynolds" last night in high def (on UHD channel). I noticed two things I hadn't caught before.

During the celebration at the start, just after Jayne gets his rain stick, we see a quick shot of Book. He's giving the last rites to the bodies of the four banditos that our BDHs have just filled with lead.

At the end, as Mal and Jayne discuss how to attack the chop shop net, Jayne asks if he should shoot at the control room. Mal says no, and tells him to shoot one of the "breakers" instead. Which Jayne does... but then he puts three rounds into the control room window, delivering a coup de grace to the bad guys. Jayne follows orders... in his own special way.

(Of course I'd seen Jayne shoot the window before. What I hadn't noticed is that he did so against Mal's orders, sort of.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

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Saturday, February 10, 2007 3:15 PM

YARDARM


Quote:

Originally posted by NateM:
I also really liked the recurring theme of being lost in the woods. A couple characters say that a bunch of times through the series and I thought it linked them all together.



Aha!

When River says this to Simon (in 'Safe', I think), She says it with exactly the same intonation as Inara says it to Simon in 'Serenity'.

She does this sort of thing a few times.

As for subtle - check out the eyes. Some of the reaction shots are the finest I have ever seen. Mal's look of multiple incomprehension at Saffron at the beginning of 'Our Mrs Reynolds' being a standout example.

Gorram it, I love this show.

'I banged my head is all'

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Saturday, February 10, 2007 9:09 PM

GOCRO


Quote:

Now, River, smart as she is, ain't no Doctor. Even if she knew what the young Intern was going to administer, she doesn't know Alprazaline, combined with droxine, is going to kill the man. And she really couldn't have read the Intern's mind about it either, as the poor lad was himself oblivious to the fact that this combination is lethal!


Couldn't she just have read the dying mans mind, if she can sense thoughts she must also then be able to sense the absence of thoughts. But then again does an aenesthesized patient have thoughts? Maybe he still has a "presence".

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Friday, February 16, 2007 11:04 AM

KAYLEELOVE


I love the dinasaurs on the dash board in front of Mal at the very end of Serenity. A great tribute to Wash.

Now lots of little things about Inara and Mal:

I can see how some people are calling Inara an ice queen but it's exactly this detachment from truely intimate relationships that gives her something in common with Mal and the perfect reason for him to come to her shuttle for timeout. Both of their professions require detachment--Mal couldn't confide in the others whom he had to lead and he knew that she couldn't become romantically attached to him because of her profession. The closer they get, the more they fight--I mean really did Mal have to call her a whore when she was showing him to hold the sword? at that moment he was totally avoiding eye contact as if he knew he was out of line but uncomfortable getting close to her, then also he could have kissed her at the end of Mrs. Reynolds when she admits she didn't trip but he choses to pretend he thinks she kissed Saffron, As we are reminded in Ariel, he's smart enough to figure out the real chain of events So Mal was as icy if not icier than Inara

In Shindig, when Kaylee is pointing out all the fine dresses, he seems really uncomfortable; maybe by the fact that he wouldn't be able to provide all the nice fine things that Inara has. (remember how desperate they were for a job) Maybe thinking he can't offer Inara the kind of life she really wants

Notice how Inara liked to choose virgins most of the time? It seemed to me she always had a warm, gentle and genuinely giving character but she was only giving to others and not receiving. You can see she is somewhat unsatisfied with her profession from the beginning of the series. She never expected herself to feel so hollow from not receiving true love herself.

Inara once told Book that she loved Serenity from the first moment she saw it but I think she's talking about her love for the captain, especially after seeing them talk after the sword fight and she looks him in the eye and says "why would I want to leave serenity" Serenity is what it is because of Mal's love of freedom and sense of what's right, making it a home. Loving what Serenity stands for is loving Mal's whole character

At that point, Mal could have swept Inara off her feet if he had just taken charge of the situation like he does in everything else. But the mix of his respect for women and insecurities about himself just don't get him the point of telling her not to leave. Like he tells Saffron in Mrs. Reynolds "I would make a terrible husband."

Inara's training as a companion made her more than just a great sex partner, ironically it makes her the perfect wife (I can't help thinking of Mal's coming to her shuttle is like Honey, I'm home from a hard day of shootin, give me something to think about besides work)

She's smart, caring, volunteering to watch River and not really a leader type like Mal but it's like she's the ying for Mal's yang

I want to see more!!

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Saturday, February 17, 2007 3:52 PM

GOODMECHANIC


A couple that I caught, having watched the series about 1 1/2 times in the past week:

In the pilot episode "Serenity", in one of the shots of Inara's shuttle flying across Persephone, one of the distant background ships traveling from screen lower left to upper left bears a very strong resemblance to a Klingon Bird-of-Prey.

In the teaser for "Our Mrs. Reynolds", immediately after Jayne and Mal draw their guns, there's a close-up shot of Jayne's revolver, with Jayne's face in the background. Take a close look at the revolver, and count the visible chambers. Jayne's gun holds significantly more than six bullets! It's at least an eight-shooter; possibly as much as ten.

"Half of writing history is hiding the truth."

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Sunday, February 18, 2007 6:37 PM

GOODMECHANIC


Three things I noticed in the Big Damn Movie:

Serenity's engines are designed to not only rotate for VTOL and slow flight, but they're also articulated in a manner that allows them to fold up closer to the fuselage after landing. That articulation is controlled and supported by large hydraulic actuators underneath the pylons. In the series DVD extras, it's mentioned that the CGI animators often had to "cheat" on those actuators' exact location, since they couldn't stay rigidly attached while the engines rotate.
In the BDM, however, the actuators were redesigned. They are no longer permanently attached to the engines; instead each actuator extends from the fuselage but ends in a coupling, a few feet short of the engine.
(What's the purpose of articulating the engines like that, if they're not going to be used as flight controls, I wonder?)

Perhaps not quite as subtle, but I was pleased to notice... you can see part of the code hidden in the "fruity oaty bar" commercial for a few frames. It's very briefly superimposed over the octopus.

During the Reaver vs. Alliance battle, there's a very quick couple of shots in which a wall panel in Serenity's engine room catches fire, and Kaylee sprays it with a fire extinguisher. That brief image - blink and you'll miss it - is very reminiscent of the Millennium Falcon catching fire and R2D2 extinguishing it. (It's very frustrating that I'm not sure which movie that was in.) Remember Whedon's half-joking comment that everything reminds him of the Millennium Falcon? Me too! :)

"Half of writing history is hiding the truth."

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Sunday, February 25, 2007 3:05 AM

BAGHEERA


Quote:

Originally posted by KayleeLove:

Inara and Mal ~~~ Both of their professions require detachment--



DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN.

When I read that sentence I was immediately reminded of River's chat with Early, (I forget the exact wording() but she essentially says that he chose the job because of who he was, and it wasnt the job that made him that way.

I hadnt realized how directly this applied to Mal and Inara (and possibly the others in the crew ?)

Inara and Mal chose their jobs, and to be where they were, because of their own problems and used the job as an excuse after that fact.... same as Early.

Very cool.

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Sunday, March 11, 2007 10:38 PM

SHERURCIJ


What comes off as just a "typical" scene in BDM takes on a new meaning when you consider it with Jayne's character - when Mal warns everybody to strap in, Jayne runs to where River, Inara and the others are strapping in...and rather than thinking of himself first, he takes the extra ten seconds to instead check *their* belts are safely fastened.

That scene is probably my favourite "Aww, Jayne's not just a lecherous hump" scene

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 11:38 PM

SHERURCIJ


Quote:

Originally posted by Nandifan:
I had no so much an observation, but a question about an observation.

Does Jayne ever recite Chinese verses? I know he curses in Chinese, but has he ever uttered one of the complex phrases JW assigns everyone else?

Please correct if I am wrong, 'cause its sort of driving me crazy trying to remember!



OOG, when Kaylee's telling the story about River at Niska's skyplex, Jayne begins speaking in Chinese - not clearly cursing either, just a "No way, that sounds unbelievable" kinda way.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:32 AM

NBZ


Quote:

What comes off as just a "typical" scene in BDM takes on a new meaning when you consider it with Jayne's character - when Mal warns everybody to strap in, Jayne runs to where River, Inara and the others are strapping in...and rather than thinking of himself first, he takes the extra ten seconds to instead check *their* belts are safely fastened.

That scene is probably my favourite "Aww, Jayne's not just a lecherous hump" scene



I actually saw that as following orders.

If I remember correctly Mal says "Everybody strap in. Jayne..."

He knows what is to be done. Maybe I am wrong.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:35 AM

NBZ


Quote:


DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN.

When I read that sentence I was immediately reminded of River's chat with Early, (I forget the exact wording() but she essentially says that he chose the job because of who he was, and it wasnt the job that made him that way.

I hadnt realized how directly this applied to Mal and Inara (and possibly the others in the crew ?)

Inara and Mal chose their jobs, and to be where they were, because of their own problems and used the job as an excuse after that fact.... same as Early.

Very cool.



Inara started training at the age of 12. Mal went into "hiding" after losing a big war.

I doubt either "chose" their paths. But both accept the cards they have been dealt. Maybe even like them and don't want to change?

But I would not say they chose.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 3:02 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by nbz:

Inara started training at the age of 12. Mal went into "hiding" after losing a big war.

I doubt either "chose" their paths. But both accept the cards they have been dealt. Maybe even like them and don't want to change?

But I would not say they chose.



Training may have started at twelve, but the actual Companin techniques are taught after the women graduate the academy, when they are of age and choose to go this route.

It's in the Serenity RPG Guide or some such. It's most definitely a real choice for Inara.


As for Mal.. I'd say it's a choice in so far as that he could theoretically have chosen to get a regular Alliance job in a factory somewhere. He didn't because it goes against everything he believes in, so it's both a choice and not.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 3:57 AM

NBZ


It is not a choice if it's the only thing you know.

Technically she did have a choice. She could have not gone ahead when the time came.

Practically? Not as much.

Same with Mal as you said. he could have got a job with the alliance. But it would have been very unlikely. Apparently the independent survivors from Serenity Valley were sort of notorious.

He could possibly have worked on a ranch for someone else.

Apart from that, browncoats would have been hard pressed for work, especially if public feeling turned against them. which it may not have. but on alliance supporting worlds and neutral ones who suffered there may have been a backlash. None of this is supported by anything ofcourse.

(I *want* to write a story. got some plot together, ideas for a backstory, circumstances etc which I buy... but alas, I cannot write too good. let's just say I see things differently than most people )

Back to topic, they technically had a choice. practically less so.

Mal could have probably gone a few different routes, but Inara? less likely.

PS this has got nothing to do with the Guild being good or evil or a business. It is more about schooling and expectations. She could have rebelled, but she did not.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:19 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by nbz:
It is not a choice if it's the only thing you know.

Technically she did have a choice. She could have not gone ahead when the time came.

Practically? Not as much.



... Why not?

I'm confused why you assume that someone with as thorough an education as a Companion training house can offer - even without all the sexual and psychological manipulation - couldn't find other avenues of employment.

You're presuming a lot of psychological pressure to say that Inara knew of nothing else, and there is no evidence for that.

Quote:


PS this has got nothing to do with the Guild being good or evil or a business. It is more about schooling and expectations. She could have rebelled, but she did not.



Again, you assume a strong pressure to go this route, when you say "rebel". Who is pressuring her? The Guild probably asks for tuition fees, and parental or teacher-based pressure is entirely hypothetical. There's absolutely zero evidence that Inara was under any kind of pressure to choose the actual, practical Companion training after graduating the more neutral part.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:21 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by nbz:

(I *want* to write a story. got some plot together, ideas for a backstory, circumstances etc which I buy... but alas, I cannot write too good. let's just say I see things differently than most people )



Perhaps you could find someone to collaborate with you? You obviously put a lot of thought into all of your scenarios. I'm sure lots of people would enjoy a complex plot in a story!

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