FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Subtle yet interesting show observations -- post yours

POSTED BY: ANIMALM0THER
UPDATED: Friday, December 7, 2007 09:19
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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 7:29 AM

NBZ


Quote:

Who is pressuring her?


Her Parents?(I am assuming she is not an orphan and that they would have had to sign off on the basic training when she was aged 12...which is total hyperbole. I really know nothing.)

Or it could just be expectation. Everyone just expected her to become a Companion. a great pride for those who know her.

Maybe she did not even consider anything else.

Just like Simon was meant to be a doctor from a pretty young age. It does not even have to look like pressure, but ambitious parents pushing for the best. Why would they want their children settle for second best?

I doubt the Guild would pressure people into joining. I am certain that is NOT a reputation they would like to have.

When you are ttrained for something from a very young age, it does limit choice, even if you have qualifications that mean you can choose a different path.

Ofcourse she could find another field of employment (I do not hold by the opinion that she would never leave), but why would she?

She likes her job (I guess. Just need to consider the camera play in the pilot episode as not disliking the job, but maybe boredom with the client?). She gets paid quite alot, is relatively respectd and has her freedom.

She is in a pretty comfortable spot with a vocation she is not at odds with. It can be hard moving from a comfort zone.

I am getting pretty good at conjecture and hyperbole.

With writing, can't ask for help til I have everything outlined.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 7:52 AM

AGENTROUKA


Well, Nandi describes Inara as focused, ambitious. That doesn't suggest outside pressure but rather actual free will.

And you yourself say that she might never have considered anything else, which is very very different from not having had a choice.

No choice, literally, means no choice. Or a choice between highly unequal alternatives, which isn't the case.

Inara's a strong woman. If she hadn't wanted to be a Companion, she would not have chosen it, even at age 18. A push-over wouldn't make for a good house priestess and emotionally attuned people like Companions should know that.

Even staying with something out of laziness or lack of drive is very much a choice, and I think we can both agree that that's not Inara's problem.

The camera play in the pilot eppy, in particular, is very deliberately timed not with talk about her profession but with talk about her leaving Sihnon, which is the only known point of conflict in Inara's past and we know nothing about what caused it.


Of course there is no definite proof either way, but all theories that imply Inara not having freely chosen her profession go against her character and behavior as portrayed on the show.


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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 7:53 AM

AGENTROUKA


Double post.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 7:54 AM

AGENTROUKA


Triple post!

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Friday, March 16, 2007 8:10 PM

OLMERCBEAR


First a quick comment on a previous post concerning the crew's spacesuits. (Not sure who exactly made the OP, and too inept to find it)

OP was wondering about the differences between Jayne's suit and the suits worn by Mal and Zoe.

Jayne's Suit-Loose, sort of flimsy, Bright Yellow, Shiny even. Helmet has good visibility to front, decent to sides. All fittings easily accesible to someone Else, not the suit's wearer.

Probably a common Laborer's suit, worn by Asteroid Miner's, Worker's at an Orbital Assembly Plant, or someone who is operating in a Low O2 atmosphere.

Bright colors so an "eyeball check" of the area let's you spot your buddy. Very important if some poor sod goes drifting off of a high orbital. Fittings arrainged so that your partner can handle bottle swaps, read gauges, etc. in case of emergency. Rugged enough and "cheap". Exactly the kind of suit a corporation or independent prospector would buy.

Mal and Zoes' suits-Snug, almost tight fitting. Appears to be made of much stronger materials. Dull, blends in. Very hard to see. Armor plating at critical locations. All fittings and controls accessible by the suits wearer. Helmet has good visibility all around.

Probably a "Raider" type suit used by the Independents in ship to ship action in space, or in combat in airless enviorments or toxic atmospheres.

Now for my observation. Severals of times our BDH's use a little handi talkie/communicator for person to person or ground to ship radio traffic. Most notably the final moments of "Ariel" and in "HoG". We've all seen it, that little black box. Took me a couple of veiwings to realize just what they (the props people) had used.

Back in the mid '80's a company, and I honestly can't remember who it was, developed a gizmo to assist in the location and rescue of trapped Firefighter's. It is a small box that hangs on the FF's SCBA (air) harness. Inside are tremblor switches and a timing circuit and a few other features. When a FF stops moving, the gizmo starts counting and if no movement occurs within a specified time, a Very Loud tone begins to sound and a Bright, Very bright strobe light begins to flash. All in hopes that the FF can be found in time.

Well, they weren't black, they were a very bright yellow. And they worked.

They called them Fireflys'.


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Sunday, March 25, 2007 12:44 PM

KAIO


In the Message, you notice that Jayne is wearing a T-shirt that mirrors his actions in Ariel. It's a man, looking guilty, and on the phone, kind of like when he's making the call to betray River and Simon. Also, there is a blue skull and crossbones. Hands of Blue anyone?

[img]

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Thursday, April 5, 2007 10:15 PM

H0W412D


in Bushwacked, Wash is interrogated on an alliance ship and questioned about Zoe. he asks his interrogator if he's ever been with a warrior woman.

Gina Torres was on Xena i think.

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Friday, April 6, 2007 12:05 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Not Firefly, but related anyhow....

I was watching season 5 of Seinfeld and in about mid-season (right around "The Cigar Store Indian" ep) one of George's potential employers was none other than Niska himself. I just thought that was kinda cool.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, April 6, 2007 12:15 PM

H0W412D


not too subtle: in The Message, Mal says he doesn't want to jeopardize Inara's career, and she says "the career which you abhor?". sounds like what he always calls her.

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Friday, April 6, 2007 1:15 PM

H0W412D


reader is awfully close to reaver. one's subtly connected to feelings and thoughts, one's brutally connected.

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Wednesday, April 11, 2007 7:46 AM

CHAZZER


I just noticed today when re-watching Safe that when Jayne is raiding Simon's bunk, he is wearing a stethoscope! Sorry if that was obvious to everyone else but I just noticed and I laughed my pants off! So perfect, so Firefly!

xxxxxxxxxxxxx

______________________________________________
Love Chaz

*Firmly grasps the Chain of Command*

What?

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Saturday, April 14, 2007 4:59 AM

DONCOAT



Firefly has not only fantastic writing and acting, it also has incredible storytelling that comes in many different forms -- in words, expressions, visual images, and the way all those elements are combined.

I just watched OiS in high-def last night (on UHD) and caught a couple new-to-me things. I hope I'm not duplicating anybody's observations -- 'cause that would mean I read them and forgot!

In the opening sequence, after River runs out of the "very very crowded" cargo bay, Mal confronts Simon. Among the things he says is that (paraphrasing) Simon might have been shot, and since he was the doctor, who would patch him up?

That led to two thoughts. First, by that point Mal had obviously accepted Simon as an official crew member, namely, the medic. Second, though... Simon did get shot! As it turned out, the answer to Mal's question was Zoe (though she wasn't real happy about it, being more used to putting bullets in than taking them out).

Another little touch in that sequence (which I think has been mentioned before) is that just after Mal says to Simon "we're very much alone out here", the camera pans up through the hull and pulls back to show that we are, in fact, not alone at all.

And finally, in the galley scene, Mal cuts off the discussion of River's weapon skills, saying, "What we got here to deal with is the larger issue. And the larger issue is we got someone on board this ship might be a danger to us." At that point, the camera pans up (again) to show Early landing on the hull... making Mal's statement exactly true but in a completely different way than he intends.

Just wonderful.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

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Saturday, April 14, 2007 9:22 AM

GROTZ


In Badger's gorram den, he says "What were you in the war? That big war you failed to win. You were a sergeant, yeah? Sergeant Malcolm Reynolds. Balls and bayonets brigade."

In the deleted scene "Operative tracks mal" on the screen it say:

Rank/Grade: Sergeant
57th Overlanders
Balls and Bayonets Brigade

What a shiny detail.




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Wednesday, July 25, 2007 3:33 AM

SAVANTE76


Quite a lot actually. Even in Serenity the movie! During the funeral for Wash as the camera pans over Kaylee and Simon... look closely at her necklace. It's the word that's closely linked to marriage!

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Thursday, August 2, 2007 7:25 AM

MALSNARA


Quote:

Originally posted by mattcoz:
Quote:

Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
One last one, something I know others must have noticed. Inara is angry at Mal when he "hides" in her shuttle to get away from Saffron, but did anyone else notice how she snapped completely when he started talking about children? Even though she mentioned it first, it seems to send her over the edge. I don't know why, but that little exchange alone is enough to convince me that either she had a child she was forced to give up, or she can't have children at all.

Maybe, but I think she just couldn't stand the thought of him with another woman. Then again there are supposed to be a lot of hints about her past, so who knows.




THAT WAS KINDA MY THEORY ON INARA TOO!!! Although I took that snappy moment to mean that maybe Inara wanted to have children with Mal.

Also I got my theory about Inara/Child from Heart Of Gold. When Petaline is having the baby she says "This is just a moment in time, step aside and let it happen" I thought that probably had meaning and also when Jonah is actually born you see Inara's face and she just looks so happy, she's almost radiant.

"Joss is Boss"

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Thursday, August 2, 2007 7:31 AM

MALSNARA


I can't remember if anybody has posted this up already, such a long thread! But in the BDM when the rest of the crew are making their stand and Mal is leaving to go to get the signal out, as he runs away all he does is look at Inara. It's like he's trying to imprint her face into his memory, in case he dies. Then the next time you see her there are tear tracks on her face.

It took me ages to notice this because it's all in the background but I really wish it wasn't Nathan and Morena are so good at holding conversations with their eyes that it would have been a brilliant moment if you could see their faces as they looked at each other.

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Monday, August 20, 2007 1:12 PM

SCHOOLBOYSWINK


O.K. this is another thread I wish I had time to read all of, but obviously don't, so my apologies in advance if I am bringing something up that has already been beaten like Patience's horse.

For some who've followed my other posts, you may know I'd finally gotten my wife on board. Yay for me. Bigger yay for her. Well, we finished watching all the episodes, and in watching them with her (my third time through) there are two things I noticed for the first time:

1) When they are all returning to the ship in Jaynestown, Jayne is in the center of the frame and strongly lit; his hands are facing somewhat back and you can see that they are still covered in blood.

2) When Kaylee walks into the infirmary in The Message, I believe Tracey's heart monitor speeds up. Kind of on the nose for Joss, but there. Given the prevailing silence at the time in the scene, I imagine I was supposed to notice sooner, but the thing had been beeping long enough I think I'd blocked it out by then.

I'm pretty sure there were one or two more things that I noticed for the first time, but I forget them, now. Oh well, they'll be waiting for me the next time.

"When you can't do somethin' smart, do somethin' right!" -Jayne Cobb quotes Shepherd Book

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Monday, August 27, 2007 8:21 AM

EMMAZULE


I think the reason you find their theory/interpretation so ridiculous, is you are so stuck in your own interpretation - of words as much as the character - that you fail to realize others can have perfectly legitimate reasons for their interpretations. I'm not sure why, though. It actually surprises me how narrow your focus is, as if you aren't even allowing yourself to consider the possibility there could be another logical interpretation. :
Quote:


Well, Nandi describes Inara as focused, ambitious. That doesn't suggest outside pressure but rather actual free will.



Like hell it does. Well, it can, rather, but plenty of people can be "focused" and seem "ambitious", while basically having been semi-forced into such behavior patterns in childhood, often without even really realizing it. Given that we've never seen Inara's past elaborated on, and may never see it elaborated on, either of you two's interpretation of the "focused and ambitious" comments is an equally valid interpretation.

Free will is a surprisingly nebulous concept, of course, and becomes more so with every other huge breakthrough in the science of psychology. Everything we feel and think and choose apparently boils down to neurons firing and hormones flooding and this and that other biological factor. Moreover, what happens in childhood inevitably affects your adulthood - and social pressure is one of those pesky little things that happens to affect most people a great deal, because of course, we are social creatures. Can you rise above it or choose another path than the one society or your family would expect or desire? Well, yes. Otherwise society would stagnate, and never change; we would not have had Women's Suffrage or the Civil Rights movement or the American Revolution if everybody did exactly what society told them to do. But doing so - going against the grain like that - is actually pretty rare, without a catalyst of some sort.

This is actually one of my main problems with your "outside pressure vs. free will" argument.

Inara is a particular type of woman. A very pretty, very charming, graceful woman, from a good family, on a planet that is a Core planet and accepts "Companion" as a perfectly legitimate job choice, nay, a really good, really respectable, high-paying job choice, for attractive, charming young women. And I think we can assume that Companion training is pretty damn expensive, seeing as for one thing, they charge so darn much, and for another, the training apparently ranges from archery and fencing and calligraphy to anatomy (sort of, heh) and psychology and music, and need I go on, really?

In short, we can reasonably suspect, until such point as Joss outright disproves it, that Inara could have had a family not too unlike the Tams - rich, with high standards for their children and a tendency to push education and encourage them to go into high-paying, educated, respectable careers. Note that you can even have your cake and eat it too - Simon, after all, was encouraged to become a successful doctor, but he likes being a doctor and is damn good at it. Inara, as someone pointed out earlier (albeit much differently and in a different context), has often deliberately chosen as clients people who have psychological problems - that stressed-out female politician, that virgin boy in "Jaynestown", you get the idea. Her profession is monetarily lucrative, but she clearly isn't just in it for the money. Nor is she in it for the sex, because she's generally supposed to to service the client, not the other way around. Inara may well have been pushed, however gently, into choosing the profession she did, and her liking it and choosing to go along with it does not disprove this. In fact, considering she literally started her training at age twelve, I think it's safe to assume that at best, she really did have a family with high expectations for her. She may well have thought that the profession she chose was respectable and noble and admirable and wanted to go into it herself, but the idea of her parents pushing or encouraging it is not nearly as ludicrous as you try to make it sound.

Quote:

And you yourself say that she might never have considered anything else, which is very very different from not having had a choice.


Ah, the old philosophical/psychological/legal question of whether or not you can still have true "free will" with that pesky ignorance or lack of experience standing in the way. Or how much what you choose is based purely on what you know. An important question, yes, but one which is not nearly as simple as you make it out to be.

This bit boils down to how you actually define "free will" itself, or "choice", or ignorance and experience. You seem almost to use them interchangeably, those words, as if you can't have "free will" without "choice", or vice versa. But I could easily see as perfectly logical the paradox of choosing something because it seems the best choice, really not being a choice, because it is, after all, the "best" choice, therefore how could you choose any other?

And if you aren't really given much chance to explore other career options, then aren't you pretty obviously going to be more likely to go for what options you have been exposed to and encouraged towards? How then, can this be a true "choice", if it is the only option given to you? You freely "choose" it, yes, like anybody "chooses" to work towards any long-term goal, but your "choice" is influenced by what you know and what you've been told and what you have seen and heard in your life - including what your parents expect of you (and how you feel about your parents, to add further complexity to it). I think it is entirely possible to make "choices" that you have been pushed towards, without having lost "free will"; being manipulated or strongly influenced is not the same as being controlled entirely. We can only make choices based on what we think and feel and know, after all, and nothing else.

Quote:

No choice, literally, means no choice. Or a choice between highly unequal alternatives, which isn't the case.


Ah, again: this is a sharp difference between your philosophical convictions, and others' potential philosophical interpretations. That, and a silly good on your part this time.

"Or a choice between highly unequal alternatives", you say... which "isn't the case"?

How do you know it wasn't? Because I would like to know how you know something probably nobody but Joss Whedon, Tim Minear, and Morena Baccarin probably know. ;)

What if the "alternative" to being a Companion was to be a failure who never really does anything with her life but aimlessly float through it, and to have her family enormously disappointed in her, a family that perhaps she desires greatly, perhaps even almost desperately, to make proud?

How do you know - not just believe, but know - that this "isn't the case"?

Answer: you don't. None of us does, because Whedon and Minear have never really gotten around to her psychological background at all. So don't pretend you do, especially if that's what you're hinging your entire argument on!

Quote:


Inara's a strong woman. If she hadn't wanted to be a Companion, she would not have chosen it, even at age 18. A push-over wouldn't make for a good house priestess and emotionally attuned people like Companions should know that.



Ah, but you forget: she's also human. Humans are "strong" in different ways, and inevitably are weak in others, else they would be gods, not people. She may be bold and brave in many circumstances, but she is not an automaton. She still has emotions. How do you know her biggest weakness isn't simply that she loves her family so much and/or craves their approval and happiness that she strove to become very, very successful in a respectable, educated profession, so as to make them proud? Look at the way she behaves in the BDM for goodness' sake: by the end, she is lacking the usual trappings of a Companion, in both attire and behavior. She "doesn't know" where she's going next, either. But she does not seem entirely unhappy about this. I doubt she'll stop being a Companion, but Joss is no longer having the character define herself visually and behaviorally as just a Companion; she is no longer always "on". She is now a woman who happens to be a Companion, if you will. I don't know how you could possibly watched her development in Serenity and not at all noticed that she seems to have relieved some invisible sort of pressure off of herself by the end. I did, on the first viewing. (Before you argue that this is entirely the result of some of the romantic tension being resolved - keep in mind that it's actually not resolved yet, as we have actually no proof it goes anywhere, save for a meaningful moment of a glance and cryptic dialogue not ten seconds long. Oh, and there's also that pesky possibility that she has been so frustrated with Mal in the past, and left in the first place, because she feels any romantic tension or entanglements would be unprofessional or detrimental to her work).

Quote:


Even staying with something out of laziness or lack of drive is very much a choice, and I think we can both agree that that's not Inara's problem.



Ah, but here I would suggest, were social pressure the reason for Inara's choosing the profession she did, that it would be the exact opposite you suggest: she is driven and far from lazy, but she is driven (in this theory) because she wants to make the people who expect so much of her happy and proud. Wanting to make your family proud of you, I suspect, is a strong motivator for many people, but that being your motivation does not mean whatever you do because of it is out of "laziness" or "lack of drive". Quite the opposite. So that argument was a bit of a strawman.

Quote:


The camera play in the pilot eppy, in particular, is very deliberately timed not with talk about her profession but with talk about her leaving Sihnon, which is the only known point of conflict in Inara's past and we know nothing about what caused it.



That would be because we know almost nothing about Inara as a whole. Why you keep acting as if we know everything but that about her, I have no idea. :\ All we know is how she acts around other people, that she's been a successful Companion who inexplicably chose to gallivant around the system, that she seemed "focused and ambitious" to one of the people she trained with, and that she was trained from age 12. That's not exactly much to go on.

You could just easily argue that the stress of nearly making High Priestess broke her almost as back as the stress of dulcimer practice broke Nandi, as you could for just about anything else.

Hell, for all we know, it was just internal politics, political intrigue and all that. For all we know, she got bored and just decided to leave, but her family was upset with her leaving the entire planet and thus the seeming regret over leaving Sihnon that you mention in the pilot.

Like you said though - we don't know why she left. There are plenty of theories for such that would be quite silly, but the idea of "she was under pressure to succeed from a young age, and just eventually had to get away" is not really all that silly. It is entirely plausible from a psychological standpoint. Why you argue so vehemently that it can't be, I can't quite understand. Both interpretations seem perfectly plausible to me, and yet you repeatedly either ignore stuff that doesn't support your argument, pretend as if things are obviously true when in truth they're barely even hinted at and then vaguely at that, or else contradict yourself. Just admit it: none of us knows jack about Inara's backstory, we can only guess at this point, and a guess based on perfectly logical psychological principles is no more wrong than yours.

Quote:


Of course there is no definite proof either way, but all theories that imply Inara not having freely chosen her profession go against her character and behavior as portrayed on the show.



I hope, despite the rambling nature of my post, that I have at least vaguely demonstrated otherwise. Feel free to point out things you still have a problem with, though. I can see both theories as plausible going by what I have seen and know of Inara, including her behavior on the show, especially including her behavior, in fact, and am having trouble imagining how you could honestly ignore the actual level of plausibility of the other side. o.O


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Monday, August 27, 2007 9:31 AM

EMMAZULE


Here's something I've always thought was kind of a nice touch, in the BDM however brief it was - blink and you'll miss it, hence why I have no problem posting it here even though it's entirely possible to see it the first time you watch the movie (which I did, which probably enhances my opinion of the shot somewhat, I don't doubt). It's in the climax of the film.

Now, many people have cited "my turn" as a powerful moment - and it is. Some have also cited the blood dripping off the Reaver blade in River's hand at the end of the battle, or the way she was backlit, as a small, awesome touch, which they are. But my favorite River moment from the climax is one I am perplexed to have never seen mentioned in such threads.

When River is fighting the Reavers, right before a cut (back to Mal's fight with the Operative, I think), she does this movement that is so beautiful: with two Reaver blades now in hand, and having been punching and beating off the Reavers with what's apparently kung fu (going by what the fight choreography guy said her fighting style was a combination of), we then see her lean down and forward a little on one leg, the other gracefully straight (sort of like a looser, less low-to-the-ground version of the pic they used for the desktop backgrounds), and arc the longer blade forward and then behind her in an incredibly fluid, graceful curve that hits at least two if not three Reavers.

It's perfectly integrated into the fight, is quick, and fluid, and the prettiest damn fight scene movement I have ever seen in a movie, ever, I think. Even the vaguely similar movement you see The Bride do in Kill Bill Vol. 1 is not nearly as beautiful. I filled with elation and I think I almost cried with joy when I first saw it, actually, after worrying for a couple minutes or whatever that she was going to die, and here she is a "creature of extraordinary grace", and the little itty-bitty schizo ninja ballerina is using her dance moves to kick psychotic space-cannibal posterior! And make it look like a perfectly-choreographed dance while doing it (which of course, it really was, because they based the style on a combo of "kung fu, kickboxing and ballet" to create a deliberately "balletic" martial art. My point is, the effect was definitely there, and it was beautiful and seamless and utterly appropriate).

No matter how many times I see the BDM, I can never not anticipate seeing that one shot again. It makes me swell with happiness to see such a beautiful movement, especially in such a triumphant moment for her. I remember my first time watching the movie, in the theater and having been completely unspoiled for it beforehand but having seen all or most of the TV series (and thus become attached to her of course), and the entire climax of the movie, I completely forgot to analyze it, which makes it the first time in years that something had been so good as to get me that absorbed. I mean, by all reasonable logic, I should have just known that due to their arcs, and given storytelling conventions that are conventions for damn good reasons, Mal and River, at least, could not die. But damn it, that harpoon hit Wash, just about the last character I would have expected to get killed off because who on Earth kills off the comic relief just out of the blue like that? (Joss does, that's who), and my brain just froze on me in panic and I forgot to remember that certain characters were almost sure to survive and most of the others were likely to survive, so I was anticipating just about every one of them to kick the bucket in some awful, horribly painful way. So, especially the first time around - I really was so filled with joy, seeing that scene and that shot. The triumph, the grace, the beauty of it. I still am filled with joy, just thinking about it.

Remind me if I ever manage to be directing a movie with action scenes, to get the guy who choreographed that one on the job. XD Then they can be super-pretty action scenes!

Oh, and here's a couple of non-Firefly/Serenity moments for you, from the musical episode of Buffy, which I finally saw in full just last night (what can I say? Best Buy had a sale on Buffy/Angel DVD sets!):

*During the "I'll Never Tell" number, the newspaper Xander picks up features the front-page headline "MAYHEM CAUSED" with a subheadline something like "Monsters Not To Blame, Officials Say", which is of course amusing, given that this is the Hellmouth we're talking about. But underneath THAT is another subheadline about how teen vandals are the "target" (presumably of the investigation also mentioned in the sub-subheadline)! What I find most amusing though - and I freeze-framed this to check, it's around the 1:54 mark in the scene (if you do the Karoake version that's on the DVDs) - is that the same front page includes not one but two articles - the only other articles, in fact - with headlines about the police getting new tech to fight crime with ("Mayor Approves Fingerprint Computers" is one, the other has to do with improvements to systems for "Tracking Criminals"). In other words, the Sunnydale politicians and police are trying very, very hard to pacify the population by pretending to do stuff about the "crime" and "vandals" that supposedly plague the city, probably because if they admitted it was monsters and demons and spells doing it all, they'd get kicked out of office. Which is funny to me precisely because I can so totally see how that could happen.

*After the "I'll Never Tell" number, when Xander and Anya are complaining to Giles about how they want the singing to stop because (in Xander's words) it's making them say things that are "mean, and rhyme", if you listen to Anya's part of the conversation, her dialogue includes the following: "It was like we were being watched... like there were only three walls in the apartment... like the fourth one was missing", which is of course a reference to the Fourth Wall, which is broken numerous times in the episode. :P

*Also, later in that same episode (during the "Something To Sing About" number), did you notice how bizarre the Bronze's decor is? There's some weird Astroboy/Megaman pastiche poster on one wall, and on the opposite wall, there's some sort of cardboard or wood standee-style painted cutouts on the wall that are, respectively, what appears to be a parody of Shirley Temple, and a Marilyn Monroe-esque woman in lingerie, who is boxing (with boxing gloves and all!).

*In that same scene, I love how when Buffy's singing about whistling while you "work, so hard, all day" she punctuates every statement with increasingly wild whacks to the weird demonic puppet guy, and then just flings the broken broken pool cue off the to side, and it magically manages to spear the other demon-puppet guy (if you look closely, you'll see such a thing is close to physically impossible, if not outright impossible, given the angle she throws it and the amount of spin). Whose non-moving body, by the way, you can see in the background, on the ground, later in the number, with the pool cue still in his chest which I actually thought was a nice bit of amusing continuity.

*Once again in that number - watch the demon's eyes while he's looking at Buffy - you can see him trying to manipulate (or gleefully read, one or the other) Buffy's emotions; it's in his eyes. What makes me think he's stirring them and not just reading them, is he'll widen them in a suggestive way, and THEN she'll get more emotional. It's hard to be sure what's going on there, though.

*At the very end of it, the usual monotone "Grr, argh" of Mutant Enemy's logo thingy is replaced with Joss Whedon singing "Guurrr Arrrrrgh!" opera-style.

One of the other Buffy or Angel episodes somewhere also replaced the familiar "Grr, Argh" with "Duh, I need a hug!", which I thought was hilarious, but I can't remember for the life of me which episode it was.








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Monday, August 27, 2007 3:20 PM

MOBBEX


My cartridge fell out of my gun...

I don't think this has been mentionned yet. In the BDM, when Mal and Inara are entering the shuttle during the get-away sequence, Mal holds a fake grenade is his hand

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Monday, August 27, 2007 4:33 PM

DUKUSUKKER


not sure if this was mentioned yet...but a few of my favorite subtleties are:

Objects - River pauses to watch Simon with Kaylee and she hears/sees his subconscious say - "i'd be there right now" and later on after the dining room scene he says those words to Kaylee when talking about home (or what he used to consider his home), but he catches himself and feels guitly for saying them. it's rather sweet, and painful.

Message - i like that Jayne takes his hat off, first when hearing the message on the ship and then again at the funeral. at first it seems like it's out of respect (strange for Jayne) but it maybe because he close to him mom - and Tracy is speakin about his parents. the second time is interesting because he appears to have changed a little since talking to Book about how he reacts to death. it seems much closer to home than it was not too long ago...

Objects - someone mentioned the open locker when Jubal and Simon walk into the cargo bay...and that River probably already opened it. you actually see them enter in the reflection of helmet that is sitting on a box. perhaps she set it down and had to hide while they passed through, she may have even listened to that whole exchange on the walkway and was able to get "very close" to Jubal by watching him. just a thought...

cool thread

dukusukker
---------------------

"noah's ark is a problem..."

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 8:12 AM

DUKUSUKKER


Quote:

Originally posted by Romanceguru:
I don’t know why I never noticed this before but in “Trash” when Kaylee is explaining their plan on how to sneak out the lassiter (sp?) and Saffron say’s to Kalyee “Oh, except it's idiotic.” it immediately cuts to Jayne mug and his expression that shouts how dare you say that to little Kaylee. I love it because it shows how much Jayne is in solidarity with his peeps.]



Oh wow! I originally didnt see it that way. Because Jayne always is so literal and not necessarily loyal...and he always seems to miss the point of everything...i took his look (reacting to the enire line as Saffron describes why the plan is idiotic) to mean:

"aw, gorram it! now what are we gonna do? how'd did you miss that? this plan sucks..."

almost like he's watching tennis match. on board one second, off board the next, then on board again. he slays me.

i need to watch it again with the "loyalty" twist. i love it!

dukusukker
---------------------

"noah's ark is a problem..."

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Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:45 AM

MOBBEX


My cartridge fell out of my gun...

Ok check this one out. Don't know if this has been mentionned yet but...

Tam is the nickname for the Scottish/Gaelic name Tomas, which means... twin

Oh this one goes to my signature

TAM: Nickname for Scottish/Gaelic Tomas, meaning, "twin"

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 7:25 AM

RIVERFLAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Shewchuk:
In Serenity when Simon is cleaning River's wounds when she is handcuffed in the pantry river says something to the effect of "old men with no blood on their hands, yet they're in an ocean of it." I think shes refering to the parliament and their decision that led to the graveyard of Miranda.

Though and Action when harmonized free each from the other



I think you're right. I think the exact quote is "It never touched them but they're drowning in it."



"The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems." -River

"It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think -River

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 8:09 AM

RIVERFLAN


Quote:


Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:

Something that's not my observation but that comes from the Shindig commentary. The costume designer mentioned that the leather string Zoe always wears around her neck is a symbol of her marraige bond to Wash. Such a subtle touch, and somehow much deeper than if she'd worn a ring - which in the rougher places she always ends up would be a target for thieves.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



See, the problem with that statement is that Zoe is wearing that leather necklace in the flashback scene in Out of Gas where she meets Wash. Maybe it was designed by said costume designer to symbolize her bond to Wash, but the fact that she's wearing it when she meets him ruins that a little bit.

That's all I can remember right now. I know there are other little things, though. Guess I'll have to watch it all again and come back

*************************************************
Bible's broken. Doesn't make sense.

Zhu fu ni, mei-mei



I hear people talking about that a lot. My take on that is that it isn't really a blooper. Maybe it was just a piece of jewelry, but she adopted it to be symbolic of her marrage to Wash. See, they don't have a lot of money, so it makes sense that she wouldn't buy something new for that reason. Besides, I don't think people make a lot of those type of necklaces cause people like new, shiny stuff, while Zoe doesn't like new, shiny stuff.

Oh, and to contribute to the tread:
During the 5th time or so I was watching the movie, I realized that Book dies with his eyes open, but when Mal is laying his head down on that rock Book's eyes are closed, and Mal doesn't close them. I think thats more of blooper than a subtley ting, but I though I'd mention that.



"The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems." -River

"It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think -River

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 5:49 PM

MOSTLYHARMLESS


In Out of Gas, aka the flashback episode, there is one flashback that involves when Mal first bought Serenity. At first all you hear is the background voice of the dealer telling Mal, "You treat her proper, she'll be with you for the rest of your life." but you don't see the actual deal. Not until the last scene do you actually see the transaction between the dealer and Mal, and as he is saying these words he is pointing to one ship, but Mal is turned the opposite way toward Serentiy.......just a classic scene in my humble estimation

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Friday, September 14, 2007 5:31 PM

FREELANCERTEX


MostlyHarmless: love Mal's little smile in the last moments of that ep. It's such a subtle little "There you are," kinda smile. love it.

ShewChuk: the exact quote is "old men covered in blood, never touched them yet they're drowning in it" i believe, and u know I never thought of it that way before? Cool observation. what do you make of the first part of that quote: "show me off like a dog..." it sounds like she's referring to herself and the way the Alliance treated her (or to her resulting episode in the Maidenhead). but then what does that have to do with her immediately subsequent comment?

schooner: bout your comment on river's dancing in 'Safe.' I totally did not realize that until you mentioned it and I replayed the scene in my head. Guess I was always kind of caught up in the dance-firefight-dance-firefight confusion. Shiny. that's some cool filming right there.

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

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Friday, September 28, 2007 9:47 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Although I noticed Mal kiss the Crucifix in the pilot, I thought it more interesting that he turned away from everybody to bodyshield his kissing of the Cross and tucking it back in before anybody could see.

In BDM, I still haven't thought out the Scene where Mal and River are in standoff, before Simon puts her to sleep. With Jayne, she doesn't kill because she knows he won't kill her, and she had plenty of time to shoot Mal, but read his mind and obviously he hadn't made up his mind to shoot (or would have pulled the trigger before her shot killed him), so she wasn't pulling the trigger, but was still waiting to find out what he was going to decide. So this seems more of a psychic standoff than a physical standoff. And I haven't factored in any "crush" dynamics, either.

I also haven't figured out how Mal changes so quickly after fighting Jubal and then appearing behind him on hull in OIS - anybody figure that out?

Also, in the Wave scene that was shot in BDM, Mal tells Inara he's nude, and then she keeps trying to look down on the Wave screen, apparently trying to peek. However, in Trash, she already took in his full measure - even outside the blooper reel. So if her knowledge base is already filled, is she just curious if he has wood for her to peek at?

"My turn"

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Friday, September 28, 2007 12:08 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by asarian:

Shindig.

I've always wondered how long River's been listening in on Badger and henchmen before she wandered in, allegedly all confused. And this because River says: "Now you're what, petty thief with delusions of standing?"

What standing? Or rather, what standing that River knows of? It can really only refer to her having overheard Badger say: "Persephone's my home. I gotta do business with the people here. I don't want it known I brought someone in caused this kinda ruckus." But that convo took place several minutes ago. Which means River has been eavesdropping for quite a bit, all the way through the crew discussing strategy, and up and until Jayne's "We need a diversion." Then River happens to wander in, and provides one (the idea of the possibility of Jayne getting nekkid was probably too much for her to stomach, lol).

Seems River played Badger. From minute one.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam




I don't think this was eavesdropping. She was reading his mind, getting perfect a dialect she'd never heard before except in his mind, knowing his mum and childhood and how he rose up in the biz and his current insecurities and delusions.

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Tuesday, October 2, 2007 6:54 AM

BULLET0IN0THE0BRAINPAN0SQUISH


oh, and if you notice as well: in "Shindig", Kaylee's still wearing her "party" make-up while Badger keeps watch over the crew. Her and Inara's eyes had some Cleopatra-like eyeliner. Pretty shiny, it was.^^

Ain't we just.

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Thursday, October 4, 2007 10:04 PM

BULLET0IN0THE0BRAINPAN0SQUISH


By the way, has anyone else noticed that Mal, Zoe, Jayne and Kaylee all talk with the Western slang, while those from the Central planets talk more articulately? Hehe. I guess that's because they had more schoolin' than ol' Jayne.^^ It's not really subtle but it's a shiny evedence of their respective characters.

Never mind me. I don't know what I'm saying. I never know what I'm saying...

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Ain't we just.

CRY, BABY, CRY.
MAKE YOUR MOTHER SIGH.

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Sunday, October 14, 2007 1:21 PM

SORCHA425


One thing I always notice is. . . at the end of "Jaynestown" when Jayne is reflecting on the events, "The Hero of Canton" is in the background, only it's a very soft version in the soundtrack. Thought that was especially shiny.

Also, I'm sure there's a perfectly good explanation, but I keep wondering about the episode "Bushwhacked." When the Alliace station is pulling Serenity in, Serenity is upside-down and is attached upside-down; when the officers come onto Serenity, Mal and co. are right-side up and there's no evidence of the gravity field changing as the Reaver-scarred man is taken to the infirmary on the Alliance ship. It never fails to leave me wondering. Any thoughts?

Thanks!

K

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Sunday, October 14, 2007 1:31 PM

WYTCHCROFT


were there monkeys? some terrifying space monkeys??

no seriously, i think they just goofed that one - put it down with wash's invisible steering... LOL!

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Sunday, October 14, 2007 11:34 PM

BULLET0IN0THE0BRAINPAN0SQUISH


Quote:

Originally posted by sorcha425:
Also, I'm sure there's a perfectly good explanation, but I keep wondering about the episode "Bushwhacked." When the Alliace station is pulling Serenity in, Serenity is upside-down and is attached upside-down; when the officers come onto Serenity, Mal and co. are right-side up and there's no evidence of the gravity field changing as the Reaver-scarred man is taken to the infirmary on the Alliance ship. It never fails to leave me wondering. Any thoughts?

Thanks!

K



Yeah, I've always wondered about that... sometimes, I find myself tilting my head to see if I'm seeing it right...

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

I don't know what I'm saying. I never know what I'm saying.... -River Tam, Serenity (2005)

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Tuesday, October 16, 2007 6:50 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


On the blooper side,
In BDM, after the EMP and ship is in freefall, we see Wash's left hand go for a switchbank, which wiggles around on the console, swaying like it's hanging on a peg.

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Wednesday, October 17, 2007 5:24 AM

EAGERREAVER


That never fails to annoy me, that shot. It's so obvious every time! In fact it is so obvious that I thought it must be an optical illusion maybe because of the movement of Wash's thumb. Trouble is, I really don't believe that. More likely I'm trying to make excuses because it seems so lazy for anyone to have missed that and left it in the film. Maybe they just had no other shots they could fit in its place so Joss wincingly left it in.

Anyway, my observation for this thread, if it hasn't already been catalogued, comes from Safe. It's another one of those instances where 'Joss takes a jab at religeon.'

When Simon and River wind up in the hill-folk's makeshift hospital they meet Darlene (I think is her name), who has been looking after the sick. She's a sweet mannered, scripture quoting type who, when Simon quips "...nice little community of kidnappers," tells him to "Judge not..." ('lest ye be judged' I believe is the full expression). Later, she contradicts herself completely when she judges River: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live!"

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Wednesday, October 17, 2007 10:35 PM

BULLET0IN0THE0BRAINPAN0SQUISH


And I just noticed (after watching War Stories for the nth time):

When Zoe and Wash are preparing to get Mal back from Niska, Wash said the line "Leave no man behind." It sounded so heroic and his stance was so manly and all, and then you realize he's holding a girl-gun.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

I don't know what I'm saying. I never know what I'm saying.... -River Tam, Serenity (2005)

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Monday, October 29, 2007 11:21 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Not tremendoudly subtle, but I've often admired the methods Star Trek managed production costs to keep the network and producers happy and still keep fresh scripts. Their general rule was to alternate episodes from all on-ship, with limited extra cast, and maybe some special effects, and then other episodes are on a planet or other major set, with gobs of extras casting. Small, contained sets would lean towards less expensive.

Some scifi series stay the whole time on ship or station - I'm thinking BSG or DS9.

Anyhow, Firefly had 5 episodes on ship (mostly) and normally with limited extra cast.
1. Bushwhacked.
2. Our Mrs. Reynolds.
3. Out of Gas.
4. Message.
5. Objects in Space.

These 5 make up about 1/3 of the episodes (13 plus 2 hr pilot).
But also including War Stories (largely on Nisko's station, very contained set), and Ariel (largely in hospital, but a bit more cast), would make it 7 episodes, almost half of the shows.

The rest either had large soundstage scenes or gobs of cast, I figure.
Special effects seemed blended well throughout.

I just thought it all interesting.

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Sunday, November 4, 2007 10:33 AM

BROWNCOATSANDINISTA


I just noticed watching "Our Mrs. Reynolds" last night that when Jayne walks up with Vera, Mal holds his hand right over his gun the whole time. Like he's ready to draw, which he subsequently did in the movie. Also, same ep, after YoSaffBridge asks if the captain wants her to wash his feet, he looks first at her, then at his the Washburns, like he's daring them to say something about him being a lecherous old hump. And immediately after he walks out Wash tears into the fresh bao. Hilarious.

"I'm not going to say Serenity is the greatest SciFi movie ever; oh wait yes I am." - Orson Scott Card

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Sunday, November 4, 2007 11:02 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by sorcha425:
Also, I'm sure there's a perfectly good explanation, but I keep wondering about the episode "Bushwhacked." When the Alliace station is pulling Serenity in, Serenity is upside-down and is attached upside-down; when the officers come onto Serenity, Mal and co. are right-side up and there's no evidence of the gravity field changing as the Reaver-scarred man is taken to the infirmary on the Alliance ship. It never fails to leave me wondering. Any thoughts?



Well, there's no 'right side up' in space, of course. Serenity is definitely docking upside down, relative to the Alliance Cruiser; but that don't change the gravity orientation within Serenity itself one bit, of course. It just like it were 'upside down' in space: out there in the back, it don't mean a thing.

So, how's the gravity field organized on the Cruiser? At least we know that gravity, in their cockpit, seems aligned with Serenity 'right side up' (as we watch Serenity turn upside down from their view screen). But it's entirely plausible that, ship this size, the outer hull gravity works the way gravity works on any planet/moon: drawing inward from all sides. Seems like a very natural way to organize gravity, if you ask me. So, Serenity, when it's docking, IS aligned with the Cruiser's gravity!

Now, we don't get to see precisely HOW Serenity docks. I reckon there's a type of docking ring (or they fly into a hangar of sorts; there's no footage showing the exact moment). So, their mutual gravity, at that point, would be perfectly aligned. And that idea is strengthened exactly because we DO, explicitely, get to watch Serenity turn over. First we wee both vessels right side up; but then, when Serenity is docking, it needs to obey the Alliance 'planetary' style gravity and turn upside down to land properly.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sunday, November 4, 2007 5:21 PM

SORCHA425


Ya, I know there's no right side up in space. I understand what you're saying, it just doesn't explain the actual gravity of the individual people as opposed to the Alliance ship and Serenity. Is the hangar itself able to change its gravity before the officers go into Serenity, and the officers are really on the ceiling of the docking area when we see the doors open and the crew standing right side up (according to them)?

I don't conjure I have any answers to this. Apologies if I've completely misread your entry.

K

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Sunday, November 4, 2007 5:21 PM

SORCHA425


Ya, I know there's no right side up in space. I understand what you're saying, it just doesn't explain the actual gravity of the individual people as opposed to the Alliance ship and Serenity. Is the hangar itself able to change its gravity before the officers go into Serenity, and the officers are really on the ceiling of the docking area when we see the doors open and the crew standing right side up (according to them)?

I don't conjure I have any answers to this. Apologies if I've completely misread your entry.

K

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Sunday, November 4, 2007 5:21 PM

SORCHA425


Oops, my computer had a brain cramp and posted this twice.

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Friday, November 16, 2007 1:10 PM

WALTZING


This is more on the 'oops' side, but i was watching Objects in Space the other day and saw this- when Early is on top of Serenity listening in on the conversation in the mess room, you can see him through the windows above. Well the first thing is his hand through the window- and it's ungloved!

Oops. :p

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Friday, November 16, 2007 1:55 PM

FORTINM


It took me a few times of watching Bushwhacked to notice that Jayne is slightly limping and when he sits in the co-pilot chair, you can see a black bandage on his leg. A souvenir from The Train Job.

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Wednesday, December 5, 2007 9:41 PM

WHITESILENCE


If you notice, the thing they walk through to go between Serenity and the Alliance ship is a big flexible tube. Maybe it has it's own gravity thing and twists so that people can go from one field to another.

Although, if I remember correctly, the little fighter ships and the cruiser are belly to belly. That might support the planet model of gravity.

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Thursday, December 6, 2007 4:04 AM

REGINAROADIE


I don't know if anyone's mentioned this already, but I don't want to read nearly 400 responses.

The episode "Out of Gas" has an inaccurate title. If you think about it, the ship has plenty of gas. It's just a busted part of the ship that's not making it move. Although "Busted Hardware" isn't exactly a catchy title, so I'm giving it a pass.

I dunno. I'm a fan of movies and episodes that have contradictory or paradoxal titles. Like "Finding Nemo". Anyone whose read 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea knows that Nemo is Latin for nobody. So that movie translates to "Finding Nobody". It's probably the most existential title in Disney's catalogue.

**************************************************
"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack

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Thursday, December 6, 2007 4:26 PM

FORTINM


Quote:

The episode "Out of Gas" has an inaccurate title. If you think about it, the ship has plenty of gas. It's just a busted part of the ship that's not making it move.


I think it refers to the oxygen gas, not the fuel.

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Friday, December 7, 2007 9:19 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by fortinm:
Quote:

The episode "Out of Gas" has an inaccurate title. If you think about it, the ship has plenty of gas. It's just a busted part of the ship that's not making it move.


I think it refers to the oxygen gas, not the fuel.



Hmm, I think "oxygen gas" is a stretch -- and a far stretch, at that. Unless you're at the dentist or some such, "out of gas" really only means one thing here: to be out of fuel. "gas". in this context, is not "a substance that is neither a solid nor a liquid at ordinary temperatures with the ability to expand infinitely," like air (plural 'gasses'), but is short for gasoline: the stuff used to fuel internal-combustion engines.

Having said that, I think no literal meaning was intended either way: the title refers to neither fuel nor any gaseous compound, but, figuratively, is comparable to Book's "The end of the line" line.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sun, January 14, 2024 14:18 - 91 posts
Firefly Honest Trailer
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Chronological Order of Episodes.
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The Unmade Episodes
Sun, June 12, 2022 14:39 - 1 posts
Episode sequence?
Wed, February 16, 2022 00:58 - 9 posts
I have lost all faith in the Oscars!
Wed, December 22, 2021 08:46 - 37 posts
Questions about Sound in Space
Mon, November 29, 2021 20:47 - 41 posts
Itinerary for Serenity during the 9 months of Firefly/Serenity.
Thu, June 20, 2019 20:39 - 21 posts
Map of the Verse discussion
Tue, June 4, 2019 20:51 - 170 posts
The Savant Crew
Wed, May 15, 2019 13:47 - 32 posts
Who Was Your Favorite Friend of Our BDH?
Wed, April 24, 2019 00:26 - 3 posts

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