FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Ramblings on Serenity

POSTED BY: TRICKSTER
UPDATED: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 09:03
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 15295
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Friday, September 20, 2002 3:11 PM

TRICKSTER


Okay, these are half nonsensical, but it's how I've done it for every other fandom I've ever been in. Might as well stay try to form.

The show won me over the second I saw Mal, Zoe and Jayne playing Chinese checkers in the middle of a bar.

The window regenerated itself, or something. Dude, I waaaant that window.

A note on Kaylee: I will always see her as Becca from Flash Forward. That being said, I'm making it a point not to refer to her as Becca.

Religiosity? I love new words.

Aw, Kaylee's got a crush on Simon. It's cute. She's a very Willow character, too.

"Were there monkeys?" It's official, I love Mal. I think he's my perfect guy. This should give you a little bit of insight to me...

Crow? Every time I heard his name, I kept thinking of the little yellow guy from Mystery Science Theater. Now there's a crossover I didn't need in my head...

The scene with Inara and Book (?) in the kitchen? I want those chairs. I want IKEA to carry those chairs so I can buy them.

Total number of shipper couples: so far just Mal/Inara. I need to see more with Kaylee and Simon first. Mal and Inara are already just working the angst.

"Sir, I think your brain is missing." Another thing about Joss' shows. I need to watch on closed captioning just so I can see the lines when I'm too busy laughing.

Jayne's got that kinda Southern/Western accent type thing going, and I like it. Of course, seeing as how I'm really susceptible to accents, I am now thinking with it. I want to drop off all the ends of my words and say "Gorram it" all the time. I need to learn Joss-ese; don't think things like "Gorram" won't be popping into my vocabulary.

They shot Jayne! I'm not even positive I like Jayne much yet, but I did get all spazzy that they shot him.

I love this show, if only for the use of dusters.

Look! Wash has screen time!

River's kind of creepy. I have no idea what's going on with her, but yeek.

"Right. Sir. Honey." I really like Zoe. I like how adaptable she is. Give her a suggestion and she just works with it.

"Did he just go crazy and fall asleep?"

When Jayne just passes out, I love Kaylee's reaction. She's nothing but pleased with Simon. Okay, maybe I'm shipping a little.

Can I look like Inara? Please?

Wash and Zoe get screen time *together*! For two seconds.

I likes them fightin' shows. They make me smile.

"Darn." The closed captioning says "crunching and grinding", which I find oddly disturbing.

And it looks like Conan O'Brien is one of the guys out to get River. Which, by the way, the "come in two, hands of blue" thing she was saying is now stuck in my head to the tune of "Tea for Two."

All in all, I love this show. I wish they'd aired the actual pilot first, though, because I was a little confused. Nothing in the promos was actually in the episode, so you know River's the girl in the box but you don't really know what happened with that or what's going on. I also was lucky enough to know the characters' names beforehand, otherwise I'd be lost. But from what I've seen of the characters, of the plot, of the dialogue, etc., I think I'll stay a fan after watching.


Natalie

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Friday, September 20, 2002 3:39 PM

MALCOLM


Great post. And as for shippers, I've got my eye on Jayne-Kaylee!

-MBS

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Friday, September 20, 2002 5:09 PM

GREYBARD


Hey, I've got my eye on Inara/Kaylee, but that's just me.

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Friday, September 20, 2002 6:02 PM

TRICKSTER


Quote:

Originally posted by GreyBard:
Hey, I've got my eye on Inara/Kaylee, but that's just me.



I've so far managed not to slash the show yet, but I did see inklings...

Natalie
"Drunks are fun."

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Friday, September 20, 2002 6:06 PM

HAPLO721


Loved it. I've already got a hopeless cush on Kaylee. All the characters were great, and I actually chuckled several times. I'm not a big chuckler. Favorite lines:

Mal: Got time to work on my hair?

Zoe: Shiny. (I am so using this word now!)

The whole exchange at the end between Mal and Crow.

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Friday, September 20, 2002 8:41 PM

CHARLIEBLUE


Quote:

Originally posted by Trickster:
Quote:

Originally posted by GreyBard:
Hey, I've got my eye on Inara/Kaylee, but that's just me.



I've so far managed not to slash the show yet, but I did see inklings...


Hey, Mal saw the slash there. "Servicing the crew?" And there was that whole "Do you do this with many of your customers?" thing. At first I just thought, "Hey, it's a female bonding thing. Next scene they'll be going to the bathroom together." But the dialogue hinted at a little more bonding than I had in mind.

But hey, I mean, I couldn't really blame Inara for choosing Kaylee anyway.

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Wednesday, September 25, 2002 8:10 AM

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND


Quote:

Originally posted by CharlieBlue:
Quote:

Originally posted by Trickster:
I've so far managed not to slash the show yet, but I did see inklings...


Hey, Mal saw the slash there. "Servicing the crew?" And there was that whole "Do you do this with many of your customers?" thing. At first I just thought, "Hey, it's a female bonding thing. Next scene they'll be going to the bathroom together." But the dialogue hinted at a little more bonding than I had in mind.

But hey, I mean, I couldn't really blame Inara for choosing Kaylee anyway.



"We could experiment"? Hello? Anybody think she was really talking about hair?

As for slashing the boys, I think Mal/Simon is far more than an inkling at this point. "You should have let me do this sooner." With Mal all half shirtless. Mmmhmm. I don't think it even counts as subtext, that sounded like full on text to me.
And of course there's always the possibility of Jayne/Simon. Love/hate relationships are always interesting. "I think I can handle him." Sure, Simon, if you say so. But I'd rather see Jayne settle down with a sweety like Kaylee. I know, I know, but if I can't have him its gotta be Kaylee.

And damn you Trickster, I wasn't gonna ship this show!

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Wednesday, September 25, 2002 10:52 AM

ZICSOFT


Quote:

Originally posted by GreyBard:
Hey, I've got my eye on Inara/Kaylee, but that's just me.

Undoubtedly Inara swings both ways -- kind of a job qualification. But I think Inara would not want to pair up with one of the crew. Two many complications when you have "clients" coming and going like that.

Besides, it's pretty obvious that Mal and Inara have fallen for each other really hard. That's why they're always bickering: actually having sex would screw up their business relationship, so they sublimate and conceal the sexual tension with rudeness and pointless arguments.

Wonder if the others notice? It might be like the early stages of the Willow/Tara thing, where the fact that the two were in love was obvious to everyone -- except those very close to them.

JOSH, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

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Wednesday, September 25, 2002 10:55 AM

PANDORA


Quote:

Originally posted by GreyBard:
Hey, I've got my eye on Inara/Kaylee, but that's just me.



AAaaaaaaaaaaaaay-men!

Although I doubt they'd spend *two* hot ensemble members on a same-sex relationship...

I root for Inara and any woman... oh, Inara...

meow!

Pandora

"Computer games don't affect kids negatively; I mean if Pac-Man affected us
as kids, we'd all be running around darkened rooms, munching magic pills and
listening to repetitive electronic music."
-Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc.
1988

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Monday, October 7, 2002 3:37 AM

LOONYTOON


jeez, some of you guys need to get off the queer trip!

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Monday, October 7, 2002 7:20 AM

PANDORA


Quote:

Originally posted by loonytoon:
jeez, some of you guys need to get off the queer trip!



Honey, I was *born* on the queer trip.

You can either hop on board, chill in the next lane over, or get the hell off the road... but don't haterate because my VW microbus is more fun than your sedan!

Pandora
Queer as Folk

"Computer games don't affect kids negatively; I mean if Pac-Man affected us
as kids, we'd all be running around darkened rooms, munching magic pills and
listening to repetitive electronic music."
-Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc.
1988

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Monday, October 7, 2002 8:54 AM

ZICSOFT


Lesbians drive microbuses? Somehow I missed that particular stereotype!

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

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Monday, October 7, 2002 9:50 AM

LOONYTOON


sedan????? I may be a white conservative who thinks being gay is a disease on humanity, but I don`t drive a damned sedan! My`69 jimmy could wup your nazimobiles A$$ anyday!

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Monday, October 7, 2002 10:08 AM

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND


Quote:

Originally posted by loonytoon:
jeez, some of you guys need to get off the queer trip!



Tour Guide JaynesGirlfriend:

All aboard for the first annual Queer Trip! I hope everyone is comfortable on the official Queer Trip VW mini-bus.

If you'll look to your right you can see Jayne and Simon have found yet another unorthodox use for those space suits. That's right folks and this time Vera is nowhere in sight!

And a little further ahead Inara seems to be making good on her promise to "experiment" with Kaylee. I told ya they weren't talking about hair.

And quick! To your left the cast of Buffy seems to be rehearsing for the "All naked, All gay" episode set for later this season. Joss be praised!

The Queer Trip! A ride so fun you'll never wanna get off! Well, off the bus anyway!

This abuse of exclamation marks was brought to you by JaynesGirlfriend; if she can't have him, she'd rather he were gay.



"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Monday, October 7, 2002 10:19 AM

ZICSOFT


Quote:

Originally posted by loonytoon:
sedan????? I may be a white conservative who thinks being gay is a disease on humanity...

Scientific tests prove that this disease can spread electronically! This site is totally infected, so there's no hope for us. Flee now, while you still can!

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

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Monday, October 7, 2002 10:49 AM

LOONYTOON


Jesus christ, talk about a waste of good pussy!

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Monday, October 7, 2002 11:01 AM

MELEE


Quote:

Originally posted by loonytoon:
Jesus christ, talk about a waste of good pussy!



Now THAT was uncalled for! I may be straight, but I have several friends who aren't.

So... you can (Pandora, may I quote you here?) "Chill in the next lane or get the hell of the road" or I'll run you over with MY VW Bus (ok, it's my dad's, but I still get to drive it!)

Yes, I WILL run you over... or perhaps just feed you to Greg (one of my best friends, who happens to be gay as well)...

"We pretty much just give eachother significant glances and laugh incessantly"

For the morbidly curious with no more brain cells left to lose: read my Livejournal ( http://www.livejournal.com/users/meleechan/)

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Monday, October 7, 2002 11:42 AM

LOONYTOON


Yeah, well I don`t care if your gay, but don`t flaunt it, not everybody else wants to hear about it! And as I already stated, I drive a truck that could drive the hitlermobile into the ground, then tow it to the junkyard. so come try and run me over! I keep the winchester in the rack for a reason, I`ll show you the alaskan version of roadrage.

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Monday, October 7, 2002 12:18 PM

ZICSOFT


Quote:

Originally posted by loonytoon:
Yeah, well I don`t care if your gay, but don`t flaunt it, not everybody else wants to hear about it! And as I already stated, I drive a truck that could drive the hitlermobile into the ground, then tow it to the junkyard. so come try and run me over! I keep the winchester in the rack for a reason, I`ll show you the alaskan version of roadrage.

Dude, you can hold any opinions you care to. But show some respect for the opinions and lifestyles of others. This site is not a place for you to flaunt your bigotry. Speaking of flaunting.

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

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Monday, October 7, 2002 12:19 PM

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND


Quote:

Originally posted by loonytoon:
Yeah, well I don`t care if your gay, but don`t flaunt it, not everybody else wants to hear about it! And as I already stated, I drive a truck that could drive the hitlermobile into the ground, then tow it to the junkyard. so come try and run me over! I keep the winchester in the rack for a reason, I`ll show you the alaskan version of roadrage.



Wow, do your mudflaps have Yosemite Sam on them?

I know I shouldn't feed the troll, but this one was just too easy.


"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Monday, October 7, 2002 1:37 PM

LIVINGIMPAIRED


You know, I hear that sometimes when people hate something intensely and irrationally, that it's their way of subconcioulsly dealing with the same trait in themselves...


Oh, and if you're homophobic, maybe Joss Whedon shows aren't for you.

Quote:



NIGEL: Well, I'd like to know a little bit more about the Slayer and about both of you. Your relationship, whatever you can tell me.

(Tara and Willow share a quick alarmed look.)

TARA: Our relationship?

WILLOW: We're... friends.

TARA: Good friends.

WILLOW: Girlfriends, actually.

TARA: Yes. We're girlfriends.

WILLOW: (stronger) We're in love. Lovers. We're gay lesbian-type lovers.

NIGEL: (expressionless) I meant your relationship with the Slayer.

TARA: Um... just good friends.


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Monday, October 7, 2002 4:18 PM

LOONYTOON


You misuse the term homophobic. I am not afraid, I am disgusted, like dog shit on my shoe, not like a knife wielding maniac. As for the "can`t reject anything cuz that makes me one" argument, does that mean all the people who hate nazis ARE nazis? Just a quick example. Your thinking would mean no-one can object to anything. You addled liberal thinking may allow you to think the world would run well like that, but trust me, it won`t. Do you also think guns are the root of all evil? About ten percent of the population is gay, and growing. Did you buttphuckers forget about this silly little thing called evolution???? You can`t breed, so you must recruit. And, uh you were the ones to get violent first. As to the collective gasp, what is the difference between shooting someone, and running them over? Mine is a little quicker?

Even kindergarteners have figured out that a square peg can`t go into a round hole, much less into another peg. And I stopped watching buffy after that stupid little twist.

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Monday, October 7, 2002 4:22 PM

LOONYTOON


oh, yes, and how does threatening to feed me to your little pet fag promote peace and understanding?

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Monday, October 7, 2002 4:46 PM

MILLERNATE


Quote:


As for the "can`t reject anything cuz that makes me one" argument, does that mean all the people who hate nazis ARE nazis?



Is this enough to invoke Godwin's law? Please tell me the answer is yes...

Nathan
"It looks like a great adventure...That's what it is; that's what it feels like. When I saw the pilot, it was really engaging. It was exciting. It was unusual. It threw me off every now and then. I think people will be grabbed by it." - Ron Glass, on the pilot, during an interview with the Indianapolis Star

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Monday, October 7, 2002 5:13 PM

LIVINGIMPAIRED


Quote:

Originally posted by loonytoon:
You misuse the term homophobic. I am not afraid, I am disgusted, like dog shit on my shoe, not like a knife wielding maniac. As for the "can`t reject anything cuz that makes me one" argument, does that mean all the people who hate nazis ARE nazis? Just a quick example. Your thinking would mean no-one can object to anything. You addled liberal thinking may allow you to think the world would run well like that, but trust me, it won`t. Do you also think guns are the root of all evil? About ten percent of the population is gay, and growing. Did you buttphuckers forget about this silly little thing called evolution???? You can`t breed, so you must recruit. And, uh you were the ones to get violent first. As to the collective gasp, what is the difference between shooting someone, and running them over? Mine is a little quicker?

Even kindergarteners have figured out that a square peg can`t go into a round hole, much less into another peg. And I stopped watching buffy after that stupid little twist.




OK, this is going to be thearputic:



Feel better now.

________________

"You still don't get it. It's not about right. It's not about wrong... It's about Power." —Morph-O-Monster, "Lessons"

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Tuesday, October 8, 2002 7:37 AM

QUILL


Good heavens, people! Please! To quote: "While we have an open policy concerning messages, please be civil when responding to others." Civility being one of the underpinnings of civilization--gee, the two words sound similar, don't they?--can we stick with polite exchanges? Please?

Inside every cynic there's an idealist desperately yearning to be let out, and when they are let out they're usually a real pain and cause all sorts of trouble. --Chris Boucher

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Friday, October 11, 2002 2:20 AM

PANDORA


Quote:

Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Lesbians drive microbuses? Somehow I missed that particular stereotype!




Stereotype schmereotype! The VW Microbus is a fun-loving standard of tradition-flouters and free spirits everywhere! All orientations need apply.

Pandora
Born free, free as the wind blows...

"Computer games don't affect kids negatively; I mean if Pac-Man affected us
as kids, we'd all be running around darkened rooms, munching magic pills and
listening to repetitive electronic music."
-Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc.
1988

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Friday, October 11, 2002 2:25 AM

PANDORA


Sir Looneytoon:

While you are certainly more than welcome to your opinion on any subject you like, and while the free expression of thought is encouraged here, please remember that when you do post here, you are doing so to a community, and that said community is populated with all kinds of people. I respect your personal views on homosexuality, though I certainly don't agree with them, however, there's really no reason to be disrespectful, rude, and harmful in word or action.

If you can't keep up a civil conversation, for all of your heterosexual superiority, then perhaps you should just move on to another topic.

Thanks,

Pandora
why do you care who I fuck?

"Computer games don't affect kids negatively; I mean if Pac-Man affected us
as kids, we'd all be running around darkened rooms, munching magic pills and
listening to repetitive electronic music."
-Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc.
1988

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Friday, October 11, 2002 7:48 AM

RHEA


Heya, Panda! Long time no see. Miss ya at the Slipstream.

Panda's right - why should anyone else's sexual preferences matter a damn to you? :Rhea rolls her eyes:

I don't happen to share Panda's sexual preferences, but so what? There are sexual overtones of all shapes, sizes and preferences aplenty on Firefly. Why shouldn't everybody enjoy whatever turns them on? Doesn't cost any of us anything.

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Friday, October 11, 2002 9:31 AM

LOONYTOON


I DON`T care who you screw, but wanting to make half of fireflys crew queer is insulting to many people, and heterosexuals that disapprove of homosexuals far outnumber the gays and there supporters, however in the spirit of political correctness they must appeal to the minority, the majority be damned. THAT is what pisses me off. I don`t care if you are gay, just don`t flaunt it.

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Friday, October 11, 2002 11:01 AM

AVALON


LT -- please. Please, please, please chill out. You know, the ladies were just having a bit of fun. And while there's also nothing wrong with letting people know that you don't care for it -- you're entitled to your opinion, too -- we've all been asked to be civil to one another here. CIVIL. That doesn't mean describing others you disagree with as driving a "nazimobile", for pete's sakes! Your abrasiveness doesn't help your position at all. You seem to want people to respect your opinion and accept it, but nobody likes to be beat over the head with such things. You don't earn respect when you don't give it to others.


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Friday, October 11, 2002 11:04 AM

RHEA


^Gay people should be what - seen and not heard? Not seen and not heard?

Get a grip! If you don't want to participate in a conversation that offends your delicate sensibilities you can ignore it.

But attacking people for being who they are and proud of it is uncool at best.

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Saturday, October 12, 2002 3:44 AM

PANDORA


Quote:

Originally posted by loonytoon:
I DON`T care who you screw, but wanting to make half of fireflys crew queer is insulting to many people, and heterosexuals that disapprove of homosexuals far outnumber the gays and there supporters, however in the spirit of political correctness they must appeal to the minority, the majority be damned. THAT is what pisses me off. I don`t care if you are gay, just don`t flaunt it.



1. In what way is making half the crew of Firefly queer insulting to anyone? (Nevermind the fact that I don't think anyone has even mentioned more than one couple at a time, not that it matters.)

2. Anti-gay heterosexuals outnumbering gays, allies, and people who believe in living and let live may be an issue where you're from, but around here, it's not. Please remember that the Internet is a worldwide community, and in most urban areas, homosexuality is an accepted fact of life, to the point where even the people who don't approve of it aren't abrasive and rude and hurtful about it. I assure you that where I'm from, you would be the one looked at as anywhere ranging from strange to socially deranged for expressing your thoughts the way in which you have.

As far as tyranny of the minority, I'm not prepared to get into a debate about a person's liberty to live his or her life as he or she sees fit, and what other people think be damned. I am, however, a little unclear on why you think it appropriate to spew hateful and angry speech on what other people do and how they do it, when you think that the people about whom you're speaking should hide their lifestyles from your innocent eyes.

I get really angry when people tell me not to flaunt my lifestyle, because usually it's coming from people who will make a comment about a girl's ass far more quickly than I will, or who'll more than likely flaunt THEIR lifestyle, usually one of conservative heterosexism, and they think I should just deal with it, though what they do is probably far more hurtful to me than me kissing my girlfriend on the street is to them.

Irony is interesting.

Pandora
P.S.: Hi Rhea! Nice to see you 'round these parts!

"Computer games don't affect kids negatively; I mean if Pac-Man affected us
as kids, we'd all be running around darkened rooms, munching magic pills and
listening to repetitive electronic music."
-Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc.
1988

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Saturday, October 12, 2002 9:40 AM

LOONYTOON


For one, I am not the type to comment on a girls ass, good looking, or no. However, whether gays like it or not, homosexuals are involved in more sex crimes than heterosexuals. %87 percent of molested children are molested by the same sex, coming from %2 of the population! What does that say about the wonderful gays? And I do know some gays, but they respect my views and don`t talk about it in front of me. As for heterosexuals not talking about there sexual preferences, %98 percent of the population is straight. Maybe %20-40 thinks homosexuality is deviant. Maybe %.5-1 think heterosexuality is deviant. There is a BIG difference there. And how can being straight be disgusting for you? If it weren`t for hetero sex, you wouldn`t be here now, and many gays want children, so how can they be objected to straight sex? Get your sex crime rate down to the same level per capita as heterosexuals, and I might stop regarding you as wrong.

As for on the show, one person might be gay, but even one couple would be more gays than you would expect to see. Maybe have one of them run into a former "significant other" on a planet, but having two people on the crew is a little excessive.

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Saturday, October 12, 2002 11:35 AM

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND


Quote:

Originally posted by Thegn:
I don't have any problem with homosexuals, but half the crew being gay is sort of stupid. Almost all independent studies show that homosexuals represent less then 2% of the population. Some studies done by groups representing homosexuals give a higher percentage, but even their numbers are well below 10% of the population.




Thegn! I never said it was realistic. Just fun.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Saturday, October 12, 2002 12:04 PM

PANDORA


Quote:

Originally posted by Thegn:

One person who is gay on the ship is fine, but having half the crew is so nonrepresentative of the viewership that it's just ridiculous.





I don't think anyone was seriously suggesting that half the crew be gay, least of all me. That hyperbolic statement was first coined by Loonytoon in this discussion, I believe.

Pandora

"Computer games don't affect kids negatively; I mean if Pac-Man affected us
as kids, we'd all be running around darkened rooms, munching magic pills and
listening to repetitive electronic music."
-Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc.
1988

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Saturday, October 12, 2002 12:17 PM

PANDORA


Quote:

Originally posted by loonytoon:
For one, I am not the type to comment on a girls ass, good looking, or no. However, whether gays like it or not, homosexuals are involved in more sex crimes than heterosexuals. %87 percent of molested children are molested by the same sex, coming from %2 of the population!
What does that say about the wonderful gays?



I'd like to know exactly where you got your statistics for that, because last time I checked, the majority of child molestation tends to occur between men and children of both genders, although women have been known to abuse children as well. Not that I'm relishing starting up the 'gays are child molesters' topic, but I really doubt the validity of the numbers you've given.

Quote:


And I do know some gays, but they respect my views and don`t talk about it in front of me.



Well bully for you. I wouldn't either, if I were them - but if I were them, I wouldn't be able to interact on a social level with someone who thought that there was something digusting or wrong with the way I live my life.

Quote:

As for heterosexuals not talking about there sexual preferences,


Did you even read my post besides the parts that you decided to get offended by? I was not referring to being disgusted by heterosexuals or their preferences - I like men as well as women, I personally don't give a flying rat's arse who does what with whom where, unless it involves me directly. My point with heterosexuals (or, as I specifically stated in my original post, anti-gay heterosexuals) is that flaunting a lifestyle, i.e., hating homosexuals overtly by decrying their lifestyles and discriminating against them, is far more harmful to homo- and bisexuals than seeing two men kiss is harmful to heterosexuals. Capice?

Quote:


Get your sex crime rate down to the same level per capita as heterosexuals, and I might stop regarding you as wrong.



You get your sex crime rate down - as I recall, the VAST majority of sex offenders are heterosexual males. Heterosexual men are responsible for more rapes, murders, sexual harassment, sexual assault, and aggravated assault than any other demographic on earth. Does that mean that I should hate all heterosexual men, or as you say, regard them as wrong? Certainly not. In fact, I happen to love heterosexual men. With a few notable exceptions.

Quote:


As for on the show, one person might be gay, but even one couple would be more gays than you would expect to see. Maybe have one of them run into a former "significant other" on a planet, but having two people on the crew is a little excessive.



I think the most ironic thing about this last bit is that I agree with it.

Pandora
Put the haterade back in the fridge.

"Computer games don't affect kids negatively; I mean if Pac-Man affected us
as kids, we'd all be running around darkened rooms, munching magic pills and
listening to repetitive electronic music."
-Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc.
1988

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Sunday, October 13, 2002 4:42 AM

SHUGGIE


Quote:

Originally posted by Pandora:
Quote:

Originally posted by loonytoon:
For one, I am not the type to comment on a girls ass, good looking, or no. However, whether gays like it or not, homosexuals are involved in more sex crimes than heterosexuals. %87 percent of molested children are molested by the same sex, coming from %2 of the population!
What does that say about the wonderful gays?



I'd like to know exactly where you got your statistics for that, because last time I checked, the majority of child molestation tends to occur between men and children of both genders, although women have been known to abuse children as well. Not that I'm relishing starting up the 'gays are child molesters' topic, but I really doubt the validity of the numbers you've given.



The 87% stat in particular sounded a little fishy so I did a little searching. I wasn't able to find a direct figures on same-sex abuse but I did find out that -

89% of victims were abused by a male.

(Source: http://www.calib.com/nccanch/pubs/statinfo/nis3.cfm#perpetrator
see "Distribution of Child Abuse and Neglect by Perpetrator Characteristics"
5th paragraph)

So if 87% of abuse takes place between victims/perpetrators of the same sex and 89% of victims are abused by men it follows that there are many more male victims than female ones. However this is directly the opposite of the truth.

There are about 4 times as many female victims of sexual abuse as there are male.

(Source: http://www.calib.com/nccanch/pubs/factsheets/canstats.cfm
see "Victims of Maltreatment" 4th para)

So not only is this 87% figure incorrect it gives the exact opposite impression - the fact is that the vast majority of cases of sexual abuse are not same-sex, the vast majority are male perpetrators with female victims.

Whatever the figures it's very dubious to infer a person's sexuality from a sex-crime. It's even more dubious to then make inferences about that sexuality as a whole. For example there are some stats that show certain types of non-sexual child abuse are much more often committed by the child's parents. Does that mean that it's *because* they're a parent they commit these crimes? Should we "regard as wrong" parents in general? Of course not. What those figures show is that parents often have more access to the children and so if they are predisposed to abuse then they have more opportunity.

Shug

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Sunday, October 13, 2002 7:51 AM

DELVO


Quote:

89% of victims were abused by a male.
(Source: http://www.calib.com/nccanch/pubs/statinfo/nis3.cfm#perpetrator
see "Distribution of Child Abuse and Neglect by Perpetrator Characteristics"
5th paragraph)
There are about 4 times as many female victims of sexual abuse as there are male.
(Source: http://www.calib.com/nccanch/pubs/factsheets/canstats.cfm
see "Victims of Maltreatment" 4th para)


The numbers for the "about 4 times as many" are 1.7 per 1000 girls and 0.4 per 1000 boys. That would be 4.25 times as many in a population of 2000, if there were equal numbers of girls and boys. But the population is actually more like 51-49 female, so that would be 1020 girls and 980 boys per 2000 kids, which would include 1.734 female victims and 0.392 male victims. That makes females 81.6% of the 2.126 victims and males 18.4% of them (4.435 times as many females as males).

So, 89% of perpetrators are male and 81.6% of victims are female. This doesn't match up; there's a discrepency of 7.4 percentage points where male the perpetrators overlaps the male victims. But that's if you assume there are practically no cases of females abusing females. If there are, then you have to assign some of those 81.6% female victims to the 11% female perpetrators, which means a corresponding number of male victims have to be reassigned to male perpetratos. So that 7.4 percentage-point discrepency would increase, although possibly not by much. And that would mean, by any realistic figure for the number of homosexuals in the general population, that homosexuals are disproportionately more likely to do this than heterosexuals, but not as much so as males compared to females, or drug users compared to the drug-free, or those who also commit other crimes compared to the otherwise non-criminal.

How did we end up on this subject in two different threads? In any case, there's no real indication of homosexuality in the show so far except for a trick Saffron tried to play on Inara, who might go along with such things because it's her job, but we don't even know that much because she was onto Saffron's trick...

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Sunday, October 13, 2002 8:32 AM

SHUGGIE


Quote:

Originally posted by Delvo:
So, 89% of perpetrators are male and 81.6% of victims are female.



Not quite. 89% of victims were abused by a male. Whether that is also the proportion of male perpetrators depends on whether the average number of victims per perpetrator is equal across the gender divide.

Quote:

This doesn't match up; there's a discrepency of 7.4 percentage points where male the perpetrators overlaps the male victims. But that's if you assume there are practically no cases of females abusing females. If there are, then you have to assign some of those 81.6% female victims to the 11% female perpetrators, which means a corresponding number of male victims have to be reassigned to male perpetratos. So that 7.4 percentage-point discrepency would increase, although possibly not by much. And that would mean, by any realistic figure for the number of homosexuals in the general population, that homosexuals are disproportionately more likely to do this than heterosexuals


First of all let's distinguish between people who abuse children of the same sex (some of whom abuse children of both sexes) and homosexuals. As I said before same-sex abuse perpetrators are not drawn exclusively from the homosexual population.

Secondly, because the figures relate to victims rather than perpetrators they don't tell us anything about the relative prevalence amongst perpetrators of same-sex versus opposite-sex abuse.



Shug

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Monday, October 14, 2002 5:39 AM

LOONYTOON


If you like ANYONE of the opposite sex, you are gay! Just cause they give you a bad image, you can`t say they like boys but they aren`t gay. Thats bullshit!

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Monday, October 14, 2002 5:50 AM

LOONYTOON


As for pandora, of course heterosexual males account for alot of sex crimes! They are %49 of the population! As opposed to maybe %1 for queer guys! Maybe you should stop with the cute little haterade comments and think about what you are saying! As for the website links, they provide nothing to this debate, as all they prove is how many men molested children, not whether or not those children were the same sex. I looked on that website, and it looks to me like you are making some statistics up. I got mine from a friend who volunteers with abused children in Kalifornia.

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Monday, October 14, 2002 6:54 AM

SHUGGIE


Quote:

Originally posted by loonytoon:
If you like ANYONE of the opposite sex, you are gay! Just cause they give you a bad image, you can`t say they like boys but they aren`t gay. Thats bullshit!



I don't agree. I don't agree that an abuser necessarily likes their victim. It's not even always about sex so much as power. Even when it is about sex there's a difference between abusive, coercive, exploitative sex and consensual sex between adults. You're lumping two things together which have very little in common. In fact about the only thing they do have in common is the same-sex element.

To use an analogy - how much does the law-abiding gun owner who loves hunting have in common with the psychopath who uses his guns to kill innocent people? Would it be fair to lump those two groups together and make assumptions about the hunter based on the actions of the psycho?

Quote:

As for the website links, they provide nothing to this debate, as all they prove is how many men molested children, not whether or not those children were the same sex. I looked on that website, and it looks to me like you are making some statistics up. I got mine from a friend who volunteers with abused children in Kalifornia.


Well I gave precise directions as to where on the page those figures were - so I'm certainly not making them up. I did actually mention that they do not directly correspond with your statistic. However a little simple maths will prove that either your friend's figure is incorrect or the website's figures are.

I'm not going to respond on this issue again because I think most people would rather talk about the show than sexual politics.



Shug

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Monday, October 14, 2002 7:47 AM

TRAGICSTORY


DIP ME IN HONEY AND FEED ME TO LESBIANS!

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Tuesday, October 15, 2002 9:03 AM

HJERMSTED


Finally saw "Serenity"!!
It was a giant mpeg made from an (at least) third generation video dub and viewed on a tiny screened computer, but... I ain't complaining! :)

I'm not at all clear on why Fox has been sitting on this prefering to show it out of sequence. This was great TV: Entertaining with scares and surprises. The chemistry between the cast members was hands down the best I've seen from a TV pilot (movie quality, in fact). The script was great and there were many classic lines (I won't quote 'em and spoil it). Lotsa special effects concerning the ship itself. Many sets were used to give an idea of the ship's size. A couple planet scenes at the beginning and end emphasize the Western theme.

I hope they show this on TV soon so all the fans (and the curious) can see it. Fox was wrong not to show it first!

mattro

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