To OB Browncoats: Why is it hard to navigate this site? by Succatash

FIREFLYFANS.NET CENTRAL

To OB Browncoats: Why is it hard to navigate this site?

POSTED BY: SUCCATASH
UPDATED: Friday, July 2, 2004 18:12
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 7911
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Thursday, June 10, 2004 2:50 PM

I understand that most FFF Browncoats find Haken's site easier to nagivate than the OB. And over there, they find this site hard to nagivate. It's an old story, actually. But instead of saying, "Oh, well, people are different," I'd really like to know WHY this site is hard to navigate. I'm curious how people can come to the home page of FFF, look at the links and then say, "O God, what am I supposed to do now?"

Haken won't be mad. Please, OB people, explain why this site is hard to navigate. Maybe with love and honesty we can solve this big mystery.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 7:20 AM

PERIDIDDLE

I'm not am OB browncoat, if anything I find that site far much more confusing than FFF.net. Though, the first time I found myself here, I was very confused for a bit. It takes some getting used to...I don't know what it is about the layout, but it's a little odd at first glance. Not quite sure WHAT it is, but I got lost a few times. But after a bit, it's easy to find the pattern or whatever you want to call it. ^_^

"Bwaa...it's kind of a warrior...strikes fear into the hearts of..."

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 8:08 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

I'm more a regular here, but have been visiting the OB more lately, along with serenitymovie.net. I like this place the most, but I think what confuses people is that there are so many options here besides the message boards. The OB is nothing but message boards, none of the stuff that FOX put up is functional anymore. Given time, I think anyone can figure this place out, and it would be a shame if they gave up without trying too hard, 'cause Haken has put so much time and effort into making this a great site.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 8:22 AM

RABIT

First question: What's OB? Where's OB?

One reason I find this site hard to navigate is the simple lack fo navigation. For example, I can't find a way to get to the images area without an image in the "Latest Items" area. Why? I have no idea. Is there a way to get there? I can't find it!

Generally, I'd say that the majority of issues I have with the site are the fact that there's no obvious structure and/or ease of seeing how to get to things. I might be missing something, but both my wife and I have the same problem with the site.

I come back anyway, though, cuz you guys are awesome and have cool ideas!

Just starting on the community aspect, though...

Rabit

---------- If wishes were horses, we'd all be eatin' steak.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 8:30 AM

SOULOFSERENITY

The Man They Call Soul...

Quote:
Originally posted by Rabit:
First question: What's OB? Where's OB?

One reason I find this site hard to navigate is the simple lack fo navigation. For example, I can't find a way to get to the images area without an image in the "Latest Items" area. Why? I have no idea. Is there a way to get there? I can't find it!

Generally, I'd say that the majority of issues I have with the site are the fact that there's no obvious structure and/or ease of seeing how to get to things. I might be missing something, but both my wife and I have the same problem with the site.

I come back anyway, though, cuz you guys are awesome and have cool ideas! Just starting on the community aspect, though...

Rabit

---------- If wishes were horses, we'd all be eatin' steak.

Okay, for starters, look at the line of menu options towards the top of the screen for navigation. The "Blue Sun Room" is where all the pics, fics, filk and all else like that reside.

______________________

But if your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 8:47 AM

SIGMANUNKI

Quite frankly, IMHO, when I first came here I found the site cluttered and I still do. So, it took awhile for me to find what is where, etc.

I have poked around the OB a couple of times and have found it far more confusing than here.

I guess it basically gets chalked up to what you are used to. The two sites are definitly different. So, being used to one makes the other confusing. It's all relatives.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 8:48 AM

RKLENSETH

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:

I understand that most FFF Browncoats find Haken's site easier to nagivate than the OB. And over there, they find this site hard to nagivate. It's an old story, actually. But instead of saying, "Oh, well, people are different," I'd really like to know WHY this site is hard to navigate. I'm curious how people can come to the home page of FFF, look at the links and then say, "O God, what am I supposed to do now?"

Haken won't be mad. Please, OB people, explain why this site is hard to navigate. Maybe with love and honesty we can solve this big mystery.

You know, Tash, the OB Browncoats probably won't be able to get here because they are too confused.

Maybe posting this same question over at the OB might help them and get them to answer your question or at least post the link to this thread over there.

Oh, and play Cantr II at www.cantr.net.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 9:01 AM

MYORANGEHAT

Quote:
the OB Browncoats probably won't be able to get here because they are too confused.

Well, I managed to stumble blindly, blinking stupidly, and drooling quite a bit, to this thread.

Anyway, I am an OB browncoat and I DO in fact find this site much harder to navigate. The most prominent reasons are the functions that are missing:
No "unread messages to me" function
Can't post to an individual person
Can't search
Can't sort the threads
Can't ignore threads or mark as high interest

At first all those functions confused me at the OB, but as I got used to them I started to rely on them. And they really do make life a while lot easier. A message board without them is like

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 9:16 AM

SOULOFSERENITY

The Man They Call Soul...

Alright...

1. There are no "unread messages to me" because if someone responds to your post or sends you a private message it shows up as an alert in your e-mail.
2. If you want to post to an individual person click on their name. You go to their profile and there is a box on the left where you can post a message to them.
3.Search would be a nice option, but with how massive this site is, Haken can't be God all the time!

4.Actually, if you go to the right side of the screen and down, there is a box where you can look in the specific thread topics.
5.Hey, this site is massive compared to the OB, with so much more than just a message board. You can't have everything you wish for.

Haken has done wonders with this site. Give it some time and I'm sure you'll love to be here!!!

______________________

But if your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 9:20 AM

FORRESTWOLF

Actually, I use Google to search - works GREAT. Do a Google search, and add site:fireflyfans.net at the end.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 9:22 AM

MYORANGEHAT

I really do like it here. Haken has done a wonderful job!
I was only point that stuff out because someone asked. I realize that Haken can't spend at much as a network on a message board. And that a sort function would be hard and probably slow due to the number of posts. It wasn't a wish list, it was a "this is why I get confused list."

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 9:25 AM

SOULOFSERENITY

The Man They Call Soul...

Sorry if I sounded pushy!

______________________

But if your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 9:42 AM

MYORANGEHAT

Quote:
Sorry if I sounded pushy!

You didn't. You sounded helpful. I just wanted to clear up why I posted. No worries

And I don't get "pushed" that easily anyway.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 10:11 AM

IAMJACKSUSERNAME

Well, I'm all right. - Mal

I agree with almost everything in Jakob Nielsen's Designing web usability: the practice of simplicity http://useit.com/jakob/webusability/
Thems as are interested should check out his weekly column "Alertbox": http://useit.com/alertbox/

As for discussions, nothing comes even close the usability of the good Usenet readers; tho k5's (go to http://www.kuro5hin.org/comments/2004/5/31/163158/615/25#25 click "Dynamic Threaded" (which requires Javascript) and press the "Set" button) is the best I've seen on the web.

Of the Firefly sites I stalk, Buffistas has the best design - amazingly it works (for low traffic topics) eventho they only have topics and no threads. The OB gives me regular "redirect" errors.
--
I am Jack's username
FTL in Firefly? < http://jack.p5.org.uk/ftl-firefly.en.html>
Support our shiny bunnies.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 12:44 PM

HLGEM

First, if you are looking at anything that occurred less recently, it is very hard to find on this site (for me anyway). For instance, If I want to see the script for Heart of Gold I can't find it. I know it's here somewhere, but where? I find it hard to even find my own fan fics that I put on this site.

Second, I hate that I have to scroll through the whole thread to find where I left off reading. With threads the size of the ones on the OB this would be impossible.

I really like the messages to me, the search for high interest thread, the ability to ignore a person or thread, and the ability to click on a link that takes you directly to the post being responded to (much better than having to quote everything). I too especially like directing a post to a particular person or everyone.

The moving emoticons and picture icons on this board annoy me excessively. I read very fast and they just slow me down and get in my way.

That said - I think this site is a great resource and I come here to read the news. I just prefer to do my discussing in a format I find more useable.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 6:11 PM

ODILEB

Hi All,

I think this might only be my second post here, although I do lurk here.

If I were to guess, I think there are probably two main reasons why the people who frequent the OB find this site hard to navigate:

1) It's different (I know that's obvious, but there are a number of people there who have never posted on the internet, let alone spent a lot of time browsing, and that prospero board is 'home'. Don't forget that a number of people were not comfortable on the other prospero boards when the OB was out of commision).

2) One major difference between the boards is the menu system. The (perceived?) ease of navigation in the main board is due to the fact that the top menu always has the same options and the side menu always has the same type of options (for example you can browse through all the threads on the left without losing your message in the right frame and the messages display differently depending on whether they are read or in a thread you have posted to previously).

I have to say though, Haken has done an absolutely fantastic job with this site! And I would bet that this site will be around long after all of the 'official' sites are brought down (for business reasons of course).

Odile

Mal: Well, we're still flyin'.
Simon: That's not much.
Mal: It's enough.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 7:23 PM

AERRIN

I'm not a OB Browncoat (also extremely confused by /that/ place), but I did avoid fffans.net for a bit because I find it difficult to navigate. Many things of great interest are hiding in threads somewhere instead of being linked - like the gagreel - and other links aren't immediately obvious - like the Blue Sun Room.

I agree that the main page is a bit cluttered - I'd suggest making broader categories and then letting things like the boards, what's been newly posted, fireflyverse info, etc, have their own pages. I suspect that it's a problem that began when there was much less information to categorize, and it's just been added instead of rethought.

I also think the message board system is, sorry, one of the worst I've used. *ducks* I love you all, really, and I read every day because of that, but the /system/ is poor. It was ages before I knew how to get to different 'categories'. The lack of an 'unread' system is sorely missed, and the lack of page breaks is painful. It also frustrates me that you have to reply to a 'person' rather than the 'thread' - which means whichever random person you click on to reply gets a notice, but no one else does.

I also would like a search feature, but it's mostly the other things I miss more. (A forum whose system I love is the Pern M* forum, at http://pernmu.com - it lets me see what I haven't read, by board and then thread, it lets me jump directly to what I haven't read, it allows me to get emails if I want, private messages, and search. )

Mostly, were I to suggest a change (cause constructive criticism is the name of the game, I'm thinking?), I'd like to see the message board rethought - though I understand what a massive project that is - and the front page cleaned up a bit to have more categories, wherein a lot of the current links can be found, on separate pages.

I have no clue how Haken runs his site (it's a stellar site content-wise and visually, just a bit difficult to navigate at times), but maybe it would be possible for some other net-saavy Browncoats to chip in a hand, should he feel that some renovating needs to be done?

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 11:21 PM

IDEFIX

the lack of pagebreaks is something I really like about this board.

and the links up left to the first unread reply in the open thread is what I use to get what I didn't read. I go through all the threads that I'm interested in from the TOP100 from top to bottom until I meet the first one with a No New Posts message up left then I know I have read everything new.

so I really love the message board. you can navigate it by category, or by TOP100, that's something lots of other boards don't have. if you really want to read avery single post it has the posts out of thread context navigation too, I think.

what I really don't like is the Blue Sun Room navigation, it's hard to find a fic that's not new and it isn't even all too simple to get all the parts of one fic at once. the only thing useful to me there is the authors pages, else I wouldn't know how to read anything at all. but I haven't read any firefly fics lately anyway.

just my 2 euro cent

and the OB is on first glance even more confusing for me. I never really tried to get into that system. I really prefer the normal messageboards that everyone else uses with categories and threads and the thread with the most recent post on top and different icons for threads with unread posts. they are what one is used to on the net. the worst by far are the ones with one long colum of threads that don't sort by last posted to but by date of thread start. those are really useless. so I won't complain about either this or the OB because it could be much worse.

Idefix

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 1:50 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

There is an unread system here.

Anytime you click on a thread that has new posts, look in the box to the left of the message field and you will see a list of the replies that have been posted since you last read that thread. Just click on the top one and it will take you down the thread to that post.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 3:06 AM

SOUTHERNMERC

Took the words outta my mouth.

I, personally, find the OB to be more confusing and somewhat less helpful because it lacks the handy "since your last post" up in the top left corner. I also like that this site has all the other stuff stuck here. Finding it is not the easiest thing, but it's here somewhere gorrammit! (SOMEwhere...)

I also seem to read fewer "you're an idiot" troll posts here (not that there are many on the OB, just that I noticed fewer here).

Jayne: "See, Vera? You get dressed up, you get taken someplace fun!"

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 3:31 AM

ASTRIANA

That would be because troll posts here get moved to Troll Country.

~A~
El Jefe Magnifico's Mistress... of Communications and Harems...

...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 8:16 AM

RABIT

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
There is an unread system here.

Shiny! Thanks!

Uh, so can someone please tell me where the OB is located? I'm just curious - haven't been there myself...

Rabit

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 9:52 AM

KELLAINA

Quote:
Originally posted by Rabit:

Uh, so can someone please tell me where the OB is located? I'm just curious - haven't been there myself...

Rabit

Try this http://forums.prospero.com/foxfirefly/start

From there you should either be able to login as a guest or sign yourself up.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 12:48 PM

RABIT

Many thanks, Kellaina.

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Thursday, June 24, 2004 10:20 AM

HAKEN

Likes to mess with stuffs.

Lots of great comments so I'm going to lump them together and answer them accordingly.

if you are looking at anything that occurred less recently, it is very hard to find on this site (for me anyway). For instance, If I want to see the script for Heart of Gold I can't find it. I know it's here somewhere, but where? I find it hard to even find my own fan fics that I put on this site.

I'm well aware of the lack of a search feature on this site and it bothers me too. I started working on one based on what I wrote for the Refence Database but never finished it. The problem with global searches are that they take up a large amount of system resources to perform, that's why you don't usually see them on heavily visited sites. One alternative is to use Google, which someone suggested here, until I get my act together and finish the darn thing.

I hate that I have to scroll through the whole thread to find where I left off reading. With threads the size of the ones on the OB this would be impossible.

This one is a bit tricky because there's really no way for me to know where a reader left off reading when he is done. I do provide a listing of posts that have appeared since a reader's last visit and also a listing of posts that have appeared for that day, both of which works well for me personally. As you may have noticed by now, the thread structure on FFF.NET is different from that of the OB. A OB reader knows where they left off on a thread because the threads are page breaked. It simply records what page a reader clicked on last. This works well for those who don't mind clicking from page to page, but if you're a "scan reader" like me, it can get annoying.

Now, I'm no web designer, so I don't really know what works best for everyone when I programmed the message board for this site. But one of the things I really wanted to do was to create a message board that's self maintaining. Threads on FFF.NET is like a game of hot potato. Someone post a thread on a hot subject, a bunch of people respond and pass it around until another thread on a different hot subject gets posted, meanwhile, the cold thread falls off the list, and we do it all over again. The whole idea was to keep the conversations fresh and moving along. Boring topics fall off. Interesting topics stay. And without page breaks for the threads, lengthy threads will eventually fall off as well through a kind of natural attrition.

On the OB, it's not unthinkable to have a single message thread containing tens of thousands of posts with a subject matter from two years ago, posted by someone who is long gone, to continue on indefinately. I didn't want that. I like the fact that when I respond to a post, the person who originally started the thread is still around to post a response back.

The moving emoticons and picture icons on this board annoy me excessively. I read very fast and they just slow me down and get in my way.

Yeah, annoys me too when they are abused. But they're fun when under the right circumstances.

Can't post to an individual person

If you mean in a thread, you can always quote them. If you mean messaging, I do have that. Just click on a person's profile and you can send them a note.

Can't sort the threads

I'll add that to the list of things to do. That's a relatively quick fix.

Can't ignore threads or mark as high interest

That's actually not a bad idea. It might affect performance over time if the ignore list grows too lengthy. I'll add it to my todo list nonetheless.

I agree that the main page is a bit cluttered - I'd suggest making broader categories and then letting things like the boards, what's been newly posted, fireflyverse info, etc, have their own pages. I suspect that it's a problem that began when there was much less information to categorize, and it's just been added instead of rethought.

I admit, I pump a lot of information out from the main page, but I think once a person gets used to seeing it, they can usually get to what they want very quickly at a glance without going through several layers of menu.

It also frustrates me that you have to reply to a 'person' rather than the 'thread' - which means whichever random person you click on to reply gets a notice, but no one else does.

You can post a reply and overide the notification, which results in just replying to the thread. And I don't know how happy people will be to receive an email everytime a thread gets updated. Everyone gets enough spam as it is.

A forum whose system I love is the Pern M* forum, at http://pernmu.com - it lets me see what I haven't read, by board and then thread, it lets me jump directly to what I haven't read, it allows me to get emails if I want, private messages, and search.

Yeah, they bought their BBS with all the bells and whistles. I wrote mine. I guess I could have bought the same software, but what would the fun be in doing that? Give me a year or so and I'll probably get it all in. :)

Maybe it would be possible for some other net-saavy Browncoats to chip in a hand, should he feel that some renovating needs to be done?

Yeah, maybe the ASP.NET version. I'm no longer programming in ASP, which is what FFF.NET was written in. All my other projects are in ASP.NET and C#.

I really don't like is the Blue Sun Room navigation, it's hard to find a fic that's not new and it isn't even all too simple to get all the parts of one fic at once.

The Blue Sun Room was one of the last part of the site I started working on when the series was cancelled, so it's pretty rough in terms of navigation and management. What I usually do is to make it list the fics in a particular section and then do a search with my browser for what I want. Yeah, it's the poor man way of doing it, but it works. Again, I'll eventually have the a search function in place for the Blue Sun Room also. Time permitting, of course.

Got more questions? Just post them and I'll try and answer them.

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Thursday, June 24, 2004 2:19 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Quote:
Originally posted by Haken:
Now, I'm no web designer, so I don't really know what works...

You could have fooled me, man. You've done a GREAT job!

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Saturday, June 26, 2004 12:55 PM

SIWANGMU

This is a strange sort of thing to prompt me to post...
I am a relatively new Browncoat. I ended up on the OB where I've gotten totally hooked, but I kept following links here, especially since you have the coolest content ever and I've barely scratched the surface of it. I don't do much actual wandering here, because I'm mildly overwhelmed by my array of options, but I don't see it as an unnecessarily steep learning curve--at first, I couldn't make heads or tails of the OB, either, and now I love it. So I'm certain after a while I'll figure this one out, too. I was thinking that I generally agree with the other things cited by people in this thread, and, for instance, I went looking for desktop wallpapers the other day and ::sheepish:: I kind of gave up. I found this awesome listing of artwork things and I saw little pictures of the most recent ones on the left, but if I wanted to look further back I had to read each title to figure out what things were and then navigate to the picture itself and wait for it to load (my comp is slow). I feel so whiny even saying it, but I have to admit that after a while I gave up. I don't know what I'd like to have seen... if I knew just which ones were desktops or, if this wasn't too hard, if I could see little thumbnails of all of them to decide which ones to look at, that would've been cool.

Actually, none of that was what I most wanted to say. I wanted to say that you, webmastery person, you are very very nice. I was just amazed at what a good attitude you have, and... and... this isn't meant to sound patronizing, but I was really impressed by reading your response to the suggestions. I'm actually more interested in exploring this site because you seem like such a nice person.
So yeah. You're cool and your site is beautiful.

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Saturday, June 26, 2004 1:35 PM

AERRIN

Thanks for the responses! I, for one, really appreciate them. For one, I hadn't realized you were writing everything yourself - color me impressed! Also, color me a bit more patient. A few things I wanted to comment on -

- Scrolling down giant posts: I can accept that as a matter of taste, I suppose. ;) While on dialup, I do wish pages loaded a bit faster, though, and page breaks would help a tad. I hate the supershort breaks of the OB, though. So I suppose I'm just difficult to please.

I really appreciate info on how to find new-to-me posts!

Quote:
Originally posted by Haken:

I agree that the main page is a bit cluttered - I'd suggest making broader categories and then letting things like the boards, what's been newly posted, fireflyverse info, etc, have their own pages. I suspect that it's a problem that began when there was much less information to categorize, and it's just been added instead of rethought.

I admit, I pump a lot of information out from the main page, but I think once a person gets used to seeing it, they can usually get to what they want very quickly at a glance without going through several layers of menu.

- I still think some things are difficult to find, in part /because/ of the lack of menu layers. Scripts, gag reel, even particular threads that haven't been posted in 'recently' all take some work.

Quote:

It also frustrates me that you have to reply to a 'person' rather than the 'thread' - which means whichever random person you click on to reply gets a notice, but no one else does.

You can post a reply and overide the notification, which results in just replying to the thread. And I don't know how happy people will be to receive an email everytime a thread gets updated. Everyone gets enough spam as it is.

Sorry - I didn't mean to imply that everyone wants an email - I sure don't! What I meant instead was that it'd be nice to have a 'unread posts' o-meter - which I didn't realize we had. Thanks for the info on posting to threads instead of people! Maybe someone industrious could collect 'fff.net board tips' and share them all together somewhere? I've been around for roughly 7 months, regularly, and I didn't know half this.

Quote:

A forum whose system I love is the Pern M* forum, at http://pernmu.com - it lets me see what I haven't read, by board and then thread, it lets me jump directly to what I haven't read, it allows me to get emails if I want, private messages, and search.

Yeah, they bought their BBS with all the bells and whistles. I wrote mine. I guess I could have bought the same software, but what would the fun be in doing that? Give me a year or so and I'll probably get it all in. :)

Ha! Again, didn't know you were writing it yourself - that's awesome. You've put together an excellent system for someone starting from scratch. Mostly, I thought it was easier to show than tell .

One last suggestion - in the future, maybe a way to preview your posts? Had to add that after going through in hopes that I got all the board marks in the right place.

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Friday, July 2, 2004 6:12 PM

KOHAN

once again man, awesome website.

I think after re-catagorizing the content of the website, maybe you could consider designing different layouts for different contents and not have them unified messege board style.

you know, for pictures, have them grouped and then presented in thumbnails; for fan fics have the option of sorting by alphabet or date posted... and so forth.

than again, all of this does seem like a lot of work. ^^|||

anyways, just my thoughts; I think the website is fabu as is.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"You know, they say mercy is the mark of a great man.

Guess I'm just a good man.

Well, I'm all right. "
╮╯▽╰╭

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