Clothing comes to TV SF by Zicsoft

I'm sorry, but the clothes are the one thing I never liked about Star Trek. I mean, unless Kirk and Picard and all the rest stick their wallets in hyperspace when they're not using them, they still need pockets!

I liked the first-season Farscape costumes, but mainly because it fit in with all the pop-culture references. I guess his NASA (excuse me IASA) T-shirts wore out, so he had to start wearing Peacekeeper uniforms. But this reminds me of something odd about Farscape....

The first episode in which Crichton wears the uniform, he does so in order to pose as a Peacekeeper. He also talks like one -- which means putting on an Aussie accent.

In fact that's the biggest distinction between the aliens and the humans on this show. Aliens talk Australian, humans talk American. Subtext?

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Friday, May 31, 2002 2:19 PM

I loved it when Crichton switched over to the PK wardrobe. It gave the show a darker feel, somehow.

Anyway, Firefly costumes look pretty cool (judging from cast photos on the T.U.R.). Being a fashion non-afficionado, I can't analyze with any depth the inspiration, but it seems o be an electic mix: some old west styles--formal (Simon) and utilitarian (Mal, Zoe); modern-day (Jayne--kinda outta place in his camo) and more exotic (River,Inara).

--- Joe

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Friday, May 31, 2002 2:56 PM

SHAMUS

Quote:
Originally posted by mojoeca:
Anyway, Firefly costumes look pretty cool (judging from cast photos on the T.U.R.). Being a fashion non-afficionado, I can't analyze with any depth the inspiration, but it seems o be an electic mix: some old west styles--formal (Simon) and utilitarian (Mal, Zoe); modern-day (Jayne--kinda outta place in his camo) and more exotic (River,Inara).
--- Joe

I hadn't really picked up on it until you guys mentioned it, but yeah, real clothes! With pockets. It is bound to help with characterization, not to have them standing there in something that says "Look at me! I'm wearing a costume!"

The Alliance uniforms are a little heavy-handed, though. Peaked-caps and and all that ultra-neo-fascist stuff. Let me guess, they're the Bad Guys, right? I guess having a clear evil easily identified simplifies story telling, but -- from Joss -- you might have hoped for something in the way of the Alliance people doing what they sincerely think is the proper thing ... Ah, what do I know. Goose-stepping Bad Guys. Bring 'em on, mow 'em down in rows.

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Friday, May 31, 2002 3:05 PM

Star Trek costumes are infamous for being wildly impractical. I had an actress friend who worked as an extra in a few episodes of Star Trek Voyager; she described the experience of wearing her starfleet uniform as trying to maneuver around a stage for ten hours wearing a head-to-toe tourniquet. Yeesh. Makes me wonder how Jeri Ryan must have suffered. In a recent interview in Maxim magazine, Jeri quips she wished she could have burned all of her catsuits when the show ended.

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Friday, May 31, 2002 3:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by shamus:
Quote:
Originally posted by mojoeca:
Anyway, Firefly costumes look pretty cool (judging from cast photos on the T.U.R.). Being a fashion non-afficionado, I can't analyze with any depth the inspiration, but it seems o be an electic mix: some old west styles--formal (Simon) and utilitarian (Mal, Zoe); modern-day (Jayne--kinda outta place in his camo) and more exotic (River,Inara).
--- Joe

I hadn't really picked up on it until you guys mentioned it, but yeah, real clothes! With pockets. It is bound to help with characterization, not to have them standing there in something that says "Look at me! I'm wearing a costume!"

The Alliance uniforms are a little heavy-handed, though. Peaked-caps and and all that ultra-neo-fascist stuff. Let me guess, they're the Bad Guys, right? I guess having a clear evil easily identified simplifies story telling, but -- from Joss -- you might have hoped for something in the way of the Alliance people doing what they sincerely think is the proper thing ... Ah, what do I know. Goose-stepping Bad Guys. Bring 'em on, mow 'em down in rows.

I love Ben Browder's comment on the audio commentary track of the Region One DVD of the "Premiere" episode of "Farscape;" "Now these are the Peacekeepers...they're the bad guys...you can tell they're the bad guys cuz they're wearing black..."

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Friday, May 31, 2002 3:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
The online images give me another reason to think I'm going to like Firefly: the characters are wearing *real* clothes. No silly body suits, no Star Trek pajamas, no B5 wool armor. In short, no silly attempts to make the costumes look "futuristic" by eliminating buttons, pockets, and belts. No weird styles that make you wonder how people get dressed.

I guess that goes with the ban on latex aliens.

In the ten centuries since their invention, it is hard to imagine a clothes-fastening device more convenient and versatile than the good old fashioned button. Of course buttons will be around four or five centuries from now...why not?

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Friday, May 31, 2002 4:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by shamus:
The Alliance uniforms are a little heavy-handed, though. Peaked-caps and and all that ultra-neo-fascist stuff. Let me guess, they're the Bad Guys, right? I guess having a clear evil easily identified simplifies story telling, but -- from Joss -- you might have hoped for something in the way of the Alliance people doing what they sincerely think is the proper thing ... Ah, what do I know. Goose-stepping Bad Guys. Bring 'em on, mow 'em down in rows.

I think it's gonna be better than that -- that is, more complicated. This isn't about the intrepid rebels overthrowing the fascistic empire. (Been there. Done That.) The rebellion is already over, and the "good guys" have lost.

There are supposed to be parallels with the American civil war. Not too many, I hope, but I assume it means that not all Alliance people will be evil and not all anti-Alliance people with be virtuous.

So all the uniforms mean is that the people who wear them are in charge.

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Friday, May 31, 2002 4:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jorgasnarova:
In a recent interview in Maxim magazine, Jeri quips she wished she could have burned all of her catsuits when the show ended.

Yeah, the whole 7of9 thing began my final disgust with Voyager. Nothing against JR, who's a pretty good actress. But she wasn't hired for her acting skills. She was hired for certain very un-Borgish anatomical features.

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Friday, May 31, 2002 4:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
The online images give me another reason to think I'm going to like Firefly: the characters are wearing *real* clothes. No silly body suits, no Star Trek pajamas, no B5 wool armor. In short, no silly attempts to make the costumes look "futuristic" by eliminating buttons, pockets, and belts. No weird styles that make you wonder how people get dressed.

I guess that goes with the ban on latex aliens.

I think I mentioned this in another topic, but I'll go ahead again...

What I hate most about science fiction shows that depict the future is the fashion. They all wear either horribly impractical fashions, one piece body suits, or freakishly ugly freshly designed costumes.

What I love about Joss is that he understands that in 800 years, fashion won't be much different than it is now. I mean, if you look back to the 19th century... the casual wear of the period wasn't much different than it is now. A constant of fashion is that it will always repeat... clothing popular in the 20s became popular again in the 50s... clothing popular in the 70s is popular now... 80s fashion is even making a comeback (one that I fear with my whole heart). It's logical to presume that the trends will continue to recycle... and that 800 years from now, the western style may be what is in fashion. I also think that Fray is unique in this regard... the fashion in Fray is *very* 80s, and that story takes place 300 years from now.

It's safe to say that improvements on the button, zipper, and snap will never come about. I like that about Farscape... Farscape takes the practical conventions of modern clothing and redesigns it to fit into alien cultures (well... maybe not in all cases... Scorpius comes to mind). It's all very realistic, IMO.

So... upon rereading... I see that there was really no point to my reply... oh well

:tounge:

--Dylan Palmer, aka NoVaGrAsS--

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Friday, May 31, 2002 5:01 PM

SHAMUS

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Quote:
...assume it means that not all Alliance people will be evil and not all anti-Alliance people with be virtuous.

So all the uniforms mean is that the people who wear them are in charge.

Yeah, that's what I'm hoping, too. In Joss We Trust, and all that...

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Friday, May 31, 2002 7:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Quote:
Originally posted by shamus:
The Alliance uniforms are a little heavy-handed, though. Peaked-caps and and all that ultra-neo-fascist stuff. Let me guess, they're the Bad Guys, right? I guess having a clear evil easily identified simplifies story telling, but -- from Joss -- you might have hoped for something in the way of the Alliance people doing what they sincerely think is the proper thing ... Ah, what do I know. Goose-stepping Bad Guys. Bring 'em on, mow 'em down in rows.

I think it's gonna be better than that -- that is, more complicated. This isn't about the intrepid rebels overthrowing the fascistic empire. (Been there. Done That.) The rebellion is already over, and the "good guys" have lost.

There are supposed to be parallels with the American civil war. Not too many, I hope, but I assume it means that not all Alliance people will be evil and not all anti-Alliance people with be virtuous.

So all the uniforms mean is that the people who wear them are in charge.

Not all the Federal (Union) troops were anti-slavery, and not all the Confederacy troops were pro-slavery; a very, very strong element of the american civil war was the issue of how much power and autonomy to give individual states, versus the power of a strong central government.
General Robert E. Lee was an abolitionist to the core, yet he chose to support the Confederacy because he feared the federal government was gaining too much power and would become tyrannical.

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Friday, May 31, 2002 8:39 PM

kinda sorta on topic...

I wonder if Joss will dispense with one particular sci-fi cliche: Will we actually *see* bathrooms on Serenity?

--- Joe

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Friday, May 31, 2002 9:23 PM

SHAMUS

Quote:
Originally posted by Jorgasnarova:
{clip}
Not all the Federal (Union) troops were anti-slavery, and not all the Confederacy troops were pro-slavery; a very, very strong element of the american civil war was the issue of how much power and autonomy to give individual states, versus the power of a strong central government.
General Robert E. Lee was an abolitionist to the core, yet he chose to support the Confederacy because he feared the federal government was gaining too much power and would become tyrannical.

Yeah, I can see how the main issue would be strong-center versus strong-node. That's a difference in viewpoint which will never be completely resolved. I can also see how people of good will could end up in either camp. That's why the fascist wardrobe makes me a little nervous. It is a kind of visual vocabulary that says "These guys are just wrong."

sidebar: Whew! Made it back to "clothes", somehow.

Inline with all the commentary above about buttons, zippers, and snaps -- it all becomes clear... the primary issue in dispute will be boxers versus briefs. The Serenity crew are all on the side of the Boxer Rebellion. No, wait, that was another thing altogether

Joe: Not sure I need to see the toliet. Frequent group showers might be nice, though.

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Friday, May 31, 2002 11:03 PM

CHARLIEBLUE

Quote:
Originally posted by mojoeca:
I wonder if Joss will dispense with one particular sci-fi cliche: Will we actually *see* bathrooms on Serenity?

Hey, I think we just saw Buffy's bathroom for the first time this season. So I'm guessing not.

Of course, in most cases there isn't a whole lot of plot development that goes on in there anyway. (And personally, I will never miss seeing Kevin Sorbo on the pot.

)

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Saturday, June 1, 2002 5:34 AM

SHURIKAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Jorgasnarova:

In the ten centuries since their invention, it is hard to imagine a clothes-fastening device more convenient and versatile than the good old fashioned button. Of course buttons will be around four or five centuries from now...why not?

*useless fact* Buttons were actually first used purely for decoration, and clothes fastened with hook's and eyelets, until some bright spark came up with the idea of inserting them into a slit in the fabric

Also, the clothes do look pretty cool

Shuri

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam

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Saturday, June 1, 2002 5:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by CharlieBlue:
Quote:
Originally posted by mojoeca:
I wonder if Joss will dispense with one particular sci-fi cliche: Will we actually *see* bathrooms on Serenity?

Hey, I think we just saw Buffy's bathroom for the first time this season. So I'm guessing not.

Of course, in most cases there isn't a whole lot of plot development that goes on in there anyway. (And personally, I will never miss seeing Kevin Sorbo on the pot. )

Season 4, Xander used the bathroom in Restless. It's a funny, funny scene. There's also a scene in season 5 where Joyce comes out of an unseen master bathroom while she's packing for her night at the hospital.

I think that the topic of bathrooms shouldn't be avoided... if the need arise, they should at least show it.

--Dylan Palmer, aka NoVaGrAsS--

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Sunday, June 2, 2002 8:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jorgasnarova:

Not all the Federal (Union) troops were anti-slavery, and not all the Confederacy troops were pro-slavery; a very, very strong element of the american civil war was the issue of how much power and autonomy to give individual states, versus the power of a strong central government.
General Robert E. Lee was an abolitionist to the core, yet he chose to support the Confederacy because he feared the federal government was gaining too much power and would become tyrannical.

Your descriptions of Bobby Lee's motives are a little simplisitic. But yeah, the civil war and reconstruction wasn't just a matter of good guys against bad guys.

Still, I rather hope that there's more to Firefly than a rehash of that period, which has already been done to death in a zillion movies and tv shows.

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Sunday, June 2, 2002 8:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shurikan:

*useless fact* Buttons were actually first used purely for decoration, and clothes fastened with hook's and eyelets, until some bright spark came up with the idea of inserting them into a slit in the fabric

Aha! So that's why the Amish still refuse to use buttons.

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Tuesday, June 4, 2002 3:15 AM

TIEKA

I spent several years in a group that studied medival living. Anybody ever hear of the SCA? Anyway, I specialized in costuming of the period. Most people don't think about it, but attitudes towards clothing is different now. No, I'm not talking style, but the clothes themselves. Today you go to the store, buy something, wear it, wash it, throw it out. Repeat endlessly.

Prior to the industrial revolution, you had to harvest the wool/cotton/linen, wash/dye/process the fibers, then spin it, and weave it. Now after spending a year or more working on the very threads of your fabric, you want me to CUT A HOLE in it????? Forget that. I'll spend the next ten years patching holes in it, and wear it until it literally falls to pieces, and then I will use the scraps for something else.

But the show is set in the future, so why worry? Well, I'm figuring that the colonies may not be as advanced technologically as the big worlds, so the things they produce and use may not be the latest magnetic-electrostatic-never get dirty-lifesaving-totally protectant lifesuits that we see on ST.

Okay, rant is over. We now return you to the normal world.

Tieka,

to all who ever made thier own of anything.

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Tuesday, June 4, 2002 5:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tieka:

But the show is set in the future, so why worry? Well, I'm figuring that the colonies may not be as advanced technologically as the big worlds, so the things they produce and use may not be the latest magnetic-electrostatic-never get dirty-lifesaving-totally protectant lifesuits that we see on ST.

I guess you have a point, but Star Trek is a bad example. Those weird body suits didn't have any magic function. They got dirty if the plot called for it, and they still need space suits to go outside. Their only purpose was to look futuristic.

As someone who works hard at faithfully re-creating a past time, I would think you'd understand the interests of people interesting in a logically consistent future time.

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Sunday, July 28, 2002 10:54 AM

COMMONSENSEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by mojoeca:
kinda sorta on topic...

I wonder if Joss will dispense with one particular sci-fi cliche: Will we actually *see* bathrooms on Serenity?

--- Joe

Well I can tell you YES! in the episode Serenity we get a nice close up of Mal's crapper as he folds it up back into the wall and then pulls out the sink to wash his hands.

Joss has been very particular with details like this, that is why I think this series is going to be very good indeed.

Out....................

All are welcome at http://theannex.curvedspaces.com

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Sunday, July 28, 2002 11:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by CommonSenseMan:

Well I can tell you YES! in the episode Serenity we get a nice close up of Mal's crapper as he folds it up back into the wall and then pulls out the sink to wash his hands.

Joss has been very particular with details like this, that is why I think this series is going to be very good indeed.

Hell, yeah!

--- Joe

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Wednesday, July 31, 2002 4:15 PM

CURIOUSIR

Quote:

It's logical to presume that the trends will continue to recycle...
--Dylan Palmer, aka NoVaGrAsS--

so what you're saying is, everyone will be wearing black in the future?

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Wednesday, July 31, 2002 4:30 PM

LIVINGIMPAIRED

The great thing about his holiness Whedon creates, is that he is consistant with his main ideas. For Firefly, the main idea is that humans will not be anymore enlightened, or mature than they are now. The future is just another typical piece of history. It only makes sense that he wold carry that verisimulitude (sp?) over into the costuming as well.

Bored now.

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Thursday, August 1, 2002 7:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by curiousir:
Quote:

It's logical to presume that the trends will continue to recycle...
--Dylan Palmer, aka NoVaGrAsS--

so what you're saying is, everyone will be wearing black in the future?

No, not at all. Well, maybe some people will wear all black in the future... who knows?

What I was saying is that historically, fashion trends continue to recycle. That is, fashion from the 50s reemerged to influence the fashion of the 80s. Fashion of the 70s has been influencing current trends and 80s styles have been making a bit of a comeback. Of course, it's not as simple as that, as some styles merge with other styles creating new styles, but you should understand what I'm trying to say.

Perhaps if the 50s beat style (Black everything) comes back into style in the future, everyone will be wearing black? Is that what you meant?

--Dylan Palmer, aka NoVaGrAsS--

The Ultimate Buffy-Angel Quote Generator™
Anya: I found one of those 24-hour places for coffee. Remember that bookstore? Well, they became one of those books and coffee places, and now they're just coffee. It's like evolution, only without the "getting better" part.

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Thursday, August 1, 2002 7:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by shamus:

Hmm... speaking of shamus, where has he been lately? I haven't heard a word from him him for months.

--Dylan Palmer, aka NoVaGrAsS--

The Ultimate Buffy-Angel Quote Generator™
Jonathan: The way I see it, life is like an interstellar journey. Some people go into hyper-sleep and travel sub-light speeds. Only to get where they're going, after years of struggle, toil, and hard, hard work. We, on the other hand....
Andrew: Blast through the space-time continuum in a wormhole?
Jonathan: Gentlemen! Crime is *our* wormhole!
Andrew: But everyone knows that if the width of a wormhole cavity is a whole number of wavelengths, plus a fraction of that wavelength, the coinciding particle activity collapses the infrastructure....
Warren: Dude! Don't be a geek!

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Saturday, September 14, 2002 9:00 PM

LEXXLUTHOR

Do the Alliance uniforms have pockets?

I was thinking, StarTrek uniforms have no pockets because there are no personal possesions to carry in them: ie...no personal money...this ~is~ the Federation after all. Pockets are a form of personal privacy--a no no under any Federation.

The Firefly pics I saw of the Alliance made me think of an olde episode of Battlestar Galactica concerning an episode arc about an evil Eastern Alliance. Their ship crew also wore Nazi~ish uniforms and caps. Eastern Alliance dialogue was as simplified as the dialogue of the Imperial officers in StarWars. If anybody knows, is Firefly's Alliance dialogue as confined as this?

Pots. The most tasteful sci~fi depiction of toilets was the way the organic pots on the Lexx would lap out a tongue to wipe the user when he/she was done. They say it felt great and the Lexx was always very, very hungry.

Please forgive my dyslexxia

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Sunday, September 22, 2002 2:13 PM

GREYBARD

You know, on the subject of less industrialised cultures endlessly mending their clothes, did anyone notice the neatly mended horizontal tear in Mal's coat on the sleeve a few inches below one shoulder?

Authentic! I loved it. Three cheers for the wardrobe mavens of Firefly!

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Sunday, September 22, 2002 4:15 PM

JOHNNYANGEL

I was also impressed with the mildy retro look they achieved with the costuming. I noticed that not only does Mal wear braces, they button on the outside of his pants, not on the inside. This is the way it would have been done during the period of western expansion. Lest I come across as a compleat nerd, the reason I know this is because I happen to wear braces, and I have to sew the buttons on myself.

I noticed that the sheriff's uniform in The Train Job looked just like one any a modern cop would wear, and why not? It's very servicable. As for the Alliance wearing fancy uniforms, and that somehow defining them almost too simplistically as bad guys, it's a good point, but just the same not having them wear such uniforms would just not work. It's no coincidence that we see a fancy, somewhat impractical uniform as a sign of fascism. In terms of the psychology of clothing, fascism practically is the state of affairs in which the cops dress better than you do. It would just be psychologically strange for the Alliance not to wear the jackboots, as it were.

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Sunday, September 22, 2002 5:05 PM

TERAPH

Quote:
Originally posted by NoVaGrAsS:
Season 4, Xander used the bathroom in Restless. It's a funny, funny scene. There's also a scene in season 5 where Joyce comes out of an unseen master bathroom while she's packing for her night at the hospital.--Dylan Palmer, aka NoVaGrAsS--

Even earlier--in "Who Are You" (4.16)--we see it when Faith, in Buffy's body, is taking a bath. I haven't noticed one earlier than that (although we do see the bathroom at Sunnydale High at the end of Season One).

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Sunday, September 22, 2002 5:22 PM