Ways to Restore Firefly as a Series: A few possibilites by ImperialKnight

NEWS HEADLINE DISCUSSIONS

Ways to Restore Firefly as a Series: A few possibilites

POSTED BY: IMPERIALKNIGHT
UPDATED: Thursday, April 20, 2006 09:51
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Saturday, November 5, 2005 8:08 PM

This seems like the battle of Serenity Valley for all of us, browncoats.
Like some of you, I have been a die-hard fan from the very beginning.

The suits at FOX like Reavers persecuted Firefly relentlessly from the start. A simple review of the Facts:

1. FOX aired Firefly on Friday nights (the kiss of death).

2. The Marketing and Advertising for Firefly was virtually non-existent and flagrantly incompetent.

3. They would frequently preempted the show because it fell on the same night as the bloody World Series. It would have exploded if those lug-heads had waited till the summer season to air it or give it a chance to breath on a different night at a prime timeslot that did not conflict with the World Series or conflict with some other already obscenely popular show.

4. Although initially excited to have Joss (recognition of the obvious)
and recognizing the incredibly high quality of the cast, writing, story, and direction -- they pestered Joss with frivolously ridiculous demands: “More Action, More Sex, More Humor, more Drama, more, more, more!" without even giving Joss one bloody season, a decent timeslot, or a chance to blink. Like the Alliance hunting after River they hunted Firefly from the very first frame to Firefly's grounding.

This show appeals to all of us, even those of us who don't like Sci-Fi because it gives us characters who aren't the perfect little prodigal children all adhering to a single mold like Star Trek nor living in the impossibly heightened hyper-reality of Star Wars but are deep, intelligent, compelling, and above all realistic people locked in a world where virtue is not always rewarded and the good guys do not necessarily win. I believe that these corporate empires with their love affair for easy profit killed our show because its uniqueness, intelligence, and artistic strength paled in comparison to the force of their rapaciously shortsighted greed.

My point in all of this is that if we can't force Universal to restart Joss' short-lived masterpiece by playing by the rules then let's change them. The weakness in leaving it to Universal is essentially the same as leaving it to FOX (with some differences, but the same fundamental problem). “Selling” as Joss himself admits may not Joss' strong suit, but artistic vision is. The goal is to transform the equation entirely.

We are the central force in keeping Serenity flying so perhaps that is the way to restore the show to TV AND keeping it alive on the big screen. Star Trek and Star Wars did it, so why not Firefly?

Many of us (old guard and newfound conscripts alike) have already proven our devotion to the cause in the only language these suits understand: money. These suits have the power and influence to resurrect Firefly back to TV format but are seemingly blind to our incredible victory in taking a show that lasted only thirteen episodes and impressing a demigod of a conglomerate enough to make a major motion picture (which still didn't get the saturation advertising (commercials on primetime networks advertising both the movie and the SERIES in one 30sec+ package) nor marketing (in the form of enough theaters) to give it a chance to truly fly). As I said, we might need to re-think our strategy.

Here is the crux of what I propose:

1. Joss forms a corporation whose purpose is to buy Firefly’s way back into existence as a series. This corporation like all corporations will have shares so we browncoats can in essence buy ownership and share a stake in Firefly’s success. We can control Firefly's destiny instead of sacrificing massive amounts of money to dimwitted shortsighted suits only interested in cheap profit. We can use this ownership to negotiate with Sci-fi (owned by Universal) and buy a decent timeslot and pick up the series with the same cast, writers, director, etc. under Joss's direction. Then he won't have to continually "sell" his vision to those unsymPathetic fools because we will directly harness Firefly's resurgence. Of course, this requires an investment (note that the purchase of shares will provide dividends) from us in Joss' foundling company sufficient for it to go public. Once public, our options will increase and Joss can guide Firefly’s fate back to the forum it was meant to be in the first place. We can, at Joss' direction, promote the series properly through mass media and in junction with Sci-fi to bring the series back to life. From an investor’s point of view even if the corp. ultimately failed the investor is likely to recover most of his money anyway. This is just one idea, but I haven't heard anyone mention it before so I thought I'd offer it. By relying directly on our own strength and minimizing the powers of those suits that do not care about anything greater than the bottom line TODAY, Firefly might live to fly again in the way it was meant to. (And Universal can keep making movies while we keep Serenity flying on TV). Or…

2. (Adaptation of 1.) Universal offers Firefly fans a chance to contribute money directly to a fund specifically set aside for the express purpose of providing Firefly the funds required to pay either wholly or in some fixed part the cost of one season of the revitalized series on Sci-Fi at a decent timeslot. Same cast, crew, direction, etc as before, picking right up where the series left off. Once enough money has been acquired, the season restarts. Once Firefly has expanded its audience to its potential, then Sci-Fi agrees to run the series on its own tab without direct contribution for five years at least. Naturally, this could be easy or hard – the devil’s in the details. Or…

3. We continue to buy Firefly stuff and do the marketing department’s jobs for them by spreading the word and converting people to the show until even the suits are impressed enough and (by osmosis) germinate up the IQ points required to get the idea of bringing the series back to life and actually fork over the dough to do it. If this turns out to be the case then let’s just hope that they won’t pull another FOX on us.

To paraphrase Wash, ‘Let’s cut out the middleman, and give [the power] directly to the people. The pay’s better and we make sure help gets to where it needs to go’. Any more ideas or comments?

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Sunday, November 6, 2005 1:55 PM

MISBEHAVEN

Wow, I'm impressed! What a a brilliantly thought out plan. Like many fans, I've seen the movie multiple times, bought the Firefly DVD set and the Serenity O.S.T, and watch the reruns on the Sci-Fi channel mainly out of a love for Firefly/Serenity, but also in the hope that the profits generated by doing these things will help to get the attention of the "middlemen". That said, I'm in agreement with you. I think we need to do more, and your proposal sounds like an excellent idea. Any thoughts on how to implement it?

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Sunday, November 6, 2005 7:54 PM

IMPERIALKNIGHT

I have a few questions given the current state of the copyright world that need to be answered before action can be taken:

Does FOX still retain the TV rights to Firefly or does it just retain the DVD sales on the original series? I remember from a Joss Interview Joss saying that he got the rights after its cancellation to see if one of the other networks would bite(can't find the source information for that interview to reconfirm, but I know Joss said it). If FOX just retains the rights to the original half season, then Joss may have it or it may have gone implicitly to Universal when Joss agreed to do the movie. Either way, we should be set to go, once Joss buys into the idea and we get Scifi(Universal) to bite. Since my plan calls for Scifi (Universal) to show it anyway (Sci-fi is simply the best home for Firefly to begin with), it is really a matter of negotiation with hardcore suits with a presentation designed to help them realize the potential in Firefly’s untapped potential. We need Joss teamed up with a skilled negotiator and presenter to “sell” the sheer power of Firefly’s return. Any presentation needs to encompass at a minimum in some polished format the following:

1. The strength of DVD sales for a show that lasted only a rather erratically aired 13 episodes through the absolute worst timeslot on primetime TV (Friday evening is intrinsically NOT a good Ratings night for primetime), in the middle of the World Series, out of sequence( airing the pilot after the first episode for a start), and in spite of absolutely the most lackluster and forgettable marketing and advertising campaign in TV show history. Universal already bought this point, but it bears refreshing in their memory to set the stage for what’s to come.
2. Show them the breakdown of how well Serenity with what little it had in the way of advertising (outside of Sci-Fi) and marketing. For a word of mouth or “viral” advertising/marketing campaign (read slothful, lazy, and cheap for Advertising/Marketing execs) and the testimonials of conversion of large numbers of people (very deeply and very quickly with some special focus on those who love this show that were ambivalent toward or hated Sci-fi as a rule before watching Serenity or Firefly). Testimonials about the die-hard dedication of the fans would work nicely here as well as some figures about the exponential growth of the fan base in terms of recent DVD sales on the series in the wake of the movie. Include data on the sales and ranking of Firefly at Amazon.com and elsewhere worldwide sorted by region (Canada, Australia, USA, everywhere); make liberal comparisons between the relative standings of Star Wars III and Lost compared to Firefly as and when appropriate.
3. A free copy of both the series and the movie on DVD in the hands of the deciding execs in advance of the presentation to watch in order to soften them up and possibly convert them to our cause. Quality speaks for itself.

If we are solely and directly in charge, then the picture changes slightly, because we need Joss to coordinate with us to set up the new company, invest enough in it to make it public, buy lots of shares to give it leveraging power, collaborate/convince Sci-fi to pick it up (presentation points above + profit potential or just money), advertise on Sci-fi and elsewhere to promote our series with at least a measure of Sci-fi’s help, and through our shares, merchandising, etc. reap the benefits of Firefly's success on Scifi at a good timeslot. Remember we are buying shares in Firefly directly so profits will be repatriated to those of us who invested periodically in the form of dividends and company growth. Naturally Joss needs to be the one in charge of getting the company set up (with qualified help, of course) for the fans to invest in the first place so that’s the first step. Naturally Joss needs to be made aware of the idea and I don’t have his e-mail or even know if he reads e-mails from fans. Perhaps, we could in a coordinated fashion get the world to Joss and see what he makes of this. Anyway, hope that it helps kickstart the discussion. Thanks, by the way, for your kind words MisBehavin.

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Monday, November 7, 2005 4:43 AM

MISBEHAVEN

I've been looking for some form of contact address for Whedon, and I haven't found one yet; however, another possibility might be to try to contact Joss via one of the cast members. I would think they're more likely to have a fan club mailing address, and I've heard they're all still in contact with Joss and Tim. I'll confess to being new to this site, so I'm not completely familiar with what's been done to try and get the series back on T.V. Has there been any sort of organized letter writing campaign to the Sci-Fi channel? I heard in a podcast that both Joss and Tim have offices at the WB (?) network. Maybe that would be a good place to try and contact them with your proposal.

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Monday, November 7, 2005 7:24 AM

JNELCAR

IMPERIALKNIGHT, The business model that you are proposing is one that is being done right now. An independent film called Billy Dead is trying to get made using funds from a single purpose corporation which is selling stock in the movie. The company handling the stock sale is called Civilian Capital. Their website is www.civilian.com. I don't know how well they are doing raising the $$$$ since all of the articles I can find are 2yrs old. If they have success it would definitely add some strength to your proposition.

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Monday, November 7, 2005 9:04 AM

NIKNAK

I don't think it can be financed by fans alone - you need a big media company to pay for it. They tried it with Enterprise but only got pledges for $3m of the $30m they need.

Don't give up on Serenity - it is yet to be released in most of Europe and on DVD.

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Monday, November 7, 2005 9:34 AM

SHIRLOCKC

I've been thinking along the same lines as to the financing and the pay-per-episode type of model. Assuming that FOX does not still own the TV broadcast rights -- and you can still possibly do a direct-to-DVD type of release, or just film -- there are a few issues to be considered:

1) Joss may not want to do Firefly/Serenity anymore. Yes, there are still stories, yes, it's a Verse we love but what if Joss is too busy/tired/over committed? Would you accept/invest in a production without Joss' brain and the crew's commitment? IPOs and shareholders have some type of guarantee -- what would we get?

2) I think it'll work best if the "shareholders" are partners with Universal. It could work like public television where there's matching $. If the fanbase under this scheme raises 5 million, then Universal matches it and we get 10 million. What can Joss do with 10 million? That's potentially 10 one-hour episodes or one very small movie. In order to get $5 million, you're asking for $10 out of 500,000 people ($1/episode) or $100 out of 50,000 people ($10/episode). How many fans are there out there? If you take the gross of the movie divide by average movie price and take into consideration repeat viewings, then average maybe 2,000,000 fans worldwide. How many of them would pay in this model for new episodes -- Haken start a new poll!

3) Shareholder implies profit. How do you redistribute any potential profits for this enterprise? If no profits ie., from DVD sales then it's not a corporation really.

I think the above are things that can be resolved and this type of pay-per-episode model is/will be coming soon. If ABC/Disney is charging $2 for yesterday's episode of Lost, what's to stop them from charging another premium for the next UNAIRED episode of Lost the day before it airs on TV? Go a little further, you like Lost? How about buying into another series being produced by J. J. Abrams? I pay over $50/month for cable TV and usually there's absolutely NOTHING I want to watch. I should be able to pay for content that I want.

If anyone has a pipeline to Joss' ear, then it's an intersting experiment. Any projects with this type of model would defnitely need a name like Joss' and a fan base like ours.

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Monday, November 7, 2005 5:20 PM

JASTER

Not sure if there is another thread to discuss this, but I think those that decided how and when to release Serenity into theaters made a bad decision. I am a new Firefly fan and wanted to see all of the episodes prior to seeing the movie. (Yes I could have bought the series DVD, but chose not to. I will be getting it now.). Anyway, I could see the writing on the wall a couple of weeks after it was released and saw it disappearing from theaters (I had to go way out of my way to find a theater that still had it), so I decided to go and see the movie before it was gone. (Great movie and a lot of people do not know what they are missing!) Well, while at the movies I found out a lot of the people there were also waiting to see all of the episodes before seeing the movie, but also figured they had to get to a theater before it was gone. I am wondering how many others did the same elsewhere and as a result have now missed the movie in theaters (as far as I could tell, the last episode recently aired on 11/4). I really think they should have waited to release it:

1. To catch those that were waiting to see all of the episodes.

2. To release it at a time that there weren't several other movies being released.

Anyway, I hope there is life after Serenity. Maybe DVD sales will give it a boost, kind of like it did for Family Guy.

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Monday, November 7, 2005 10:45 PM

IMPERIALKNIGHT

Quote:
Originally posted by shirlockc:
I've been thinking along the same lines as to the financing and the pay-per-episode type of model. Assuming that FOX does not still own the TV broadcast rights -- and you can still possibly do a direct-to-DVD type of release, or just film -- there are a few issues to be considered:

1) Joss may not want to do Firefly/Serenity anymore. Yes, there are still stories, yes, it's a Verse we love but what if Joss is too busy/tired/over committed? Would you accept/invest in a production without Joss' brain and the crew's commitment? IPOs and shareholders have some type of guarantee -- what would we get?

2) I think it'll work best if the "shareholders" are partners with Universal. It could work like public television where there's matching $. If the fanbase under this scheme raises 5 million, then Universal matches it and we get 10 million. What can Joss do with 10 million? That's potentially 10 one-hour episodes or one very small movie. In order to get $5 million, you're asking for $10 out of 500,000 people ($1/episode) or $100 out of 50,000 people ($10/episode). How many fans are there out there? If you take the gross of the movie divide by average movie price and take into consideration repeat viewings, then average maybe 2,000,000 fans worldwide. How many of them would pay in this model for new episodes -- Haken start a new poll!

3) Shareholder implies profit. How do you redistribute any potential profits for this enterprise? If no profits ie., from DVD sales then it's not a corporation really.

I think the above are things that can be resolved and this type of pay-per-episode model is/will be coming soon. If ABC/Disney is charging $2 for yesterday's episode of Lost, what's to stop them from charging another premium for the next UNAIRED episode of Lost the day before it airs on TV? Go a little further, you like Lost? How about buying into another series being produced by J. J. Abrams? I pay over $50/month for cable TV and usually there's absolutely NOTHING I want to watch. I should be able to pay for content that I want.

If anyone has a pipeline to Joss' ear, then it's an intersting experiment. Any projects with this type of model would defnitely need a name like Joss' and a fan base like ours.

Paying as you go or adopting a Public Television model of money gathering where fans must continually pay a target value with the network picking up the rest simply feels chaotic and unreliable to me. It MIGHT work, perhaps, but remember those annoying fund-raising drives that appear all too frequently on Public Television? I wouldn't want Firefly to suffer the degrading ignominy of continually begging for enough money simply to survive. The cast, writing, and direction are simply too fine to impose such a hand to mouth existence. My plan calls either for Firefly to survive as an independent entity (with its own shares, merchandise, etc.) allied with Scifi in the sense that Scifi serves as the vehicle for Firefly's return or as part of a direct collaboration with Scifi by "selling" Scifi execs on the power of Firefly's return(see my Nov 6th post for details). The latter approach operates under some minimal presentational guidelines designed to not only convince them to fund Firefly's return but advertise it sufficiently to best realize the untapped potential of this unique diamond in the rough and doing away with the necessity of this word of mouth stuff for good. After all, I don't see anyone trying to convert people to see Lost or (with somewhat less relevance) Star Wars III - do you? Quality speaks for itself. For Firefly to have done as well as it has in the marketplace for a series that only lasted 13 episodes to a resurgence into a major motion picture by the very people who OWN Scifi in the first place makes this a very easy sale.

1. & 2. As for Joss not wanting to "uncancel" a series he, his cast, crew (not to mention all of us) love is to ignore the allure of vindicating his artistic vision, and the gains his and our indomitable efforts have won in the face of insurmountable odds. I highly doubt that he would refuse to accept the spoils of victory out of apathy or resort to the "too busy" refrain if such a chance were offered to him. This premise seems to contravene not only the letter of his actions but also the spirit some of the very deepest themes he wove into the tapestry of Firefly short life. To conclude, I doubt our fearless leader would refuse to return to Firefly as a series and I don't think the cast or crew would mind a return either. The fact that he said he wouldn't want to repeat the experience he had with Firefly's cancellation with ANOTHER series tells me that if the chance came along to undo the harm those ignorant loats at FOX inflicted, he and everyone on the cast would take it without hesitation (remember the fact that they agreed to do 3 movies if there where three movies for them to do gives some indication about their feelings where Firefly is concerned).

As for accepting less than Joss and this entire cast, my answer is no.

As for the details of the corporation deal, I'll leave the threshing out of THAT part of my idle wanderings to some future date where it's more relevant (as in with Scifi, like a Mad Hatter on drugs, chosing to not pick up Firefly under contract term and Joss getting fed up enough to go Independent(financially speaking, of course)

). The game of corporate investment is a risky and dangerous one, but feel free to do what you want with the idea. As for me, I simply want Scifi to pick the series up again at the same or greater level of support than we had with FOX without the burden of FOX or FOX-esqe bungling. (Look at SG-1, SG-1 Atlantis, and BattleStar(well ok this one is truly unique when compared to its original) and tell me how Firefly couldn't help but to revitalize the Scifi channel in attracting new viewers (and converts). Look how well they've done by shrewdly showing Firefly series from start to finish again AFTER the Theaters (in the USA anyway) have left Serenity behind.

As for the rest,

The corporation would have to be joined at the hip with Universal to survive or Joss would have to work something out in advance of any investment that predicated the flow of profits from his previous work on Firefly/Serenity (very, very, very difficult and the more I think about it the harder it gets) directly into producing and advertising new movies, books, series episodes, Mal figurines, little Kaily dresses, the T-Rex and Tri-tops that Wash plays with, et cetera ad nauseum. A more reasoned approach would fall under the category of impressing suits with more power and money than initiative or brains under the supposition that the little spent on Firefly (advertising, picking up the series, etc.) yields the prospects of much greater profits over time not to mention the fact that the series would boost the sequel('s/s') movie sales(through an increased awareness and a more Star Wars/Star Trek sized fan base, if nothing else) of their parent corporation meaning happy suits all the way around.

The emphasis is very simple: "Hey suits, come look at what we did with little in the way of advertising, marketing, low pay, very long hours, hard work, under the ever-present danger of succumbing to the oppressive malaise of bitter despair constantly nipping at our heels with FOX suits constantly badgering us and screwing everything on their end up. Your parent corporation gave us a chance and our movie was the only one that even came close to breaking even in Universal's lineup this fall in spite of the little spent in the way of marketing or advertising, don't you see how far Firefly has already gone with so few resources and more importantly don't you see that with but the modest allocation of resources it requires to thrive how much higher it has yet to go."

Quality speaks for itself. Firefly deserves fair treatment, and Sci-Fi seems like the perfect home for its resurrection. The true question I believe we must address is how we might best convince Sci-Fi to claim it as its own and under a contract that allows it to soar free from the fear of premature cancellation at the hands of fools.

The Empire is not "Evil", only those who rule it.
It fights for Peace, Order, and the Imperial Way.

The Rebellion stands in the Way of Peace and Order, so it must be destroyed!

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Thursday, November 10, 2005 7:32 AM

SYN9

I think the only way to get Firefly back on the air will be for it to sell more DVD boxsets than anyone else. It worked for Family Guy. I am buying as many as I can to give as Christmas gifts this year, because I want as many people as possible to at least see the show. There is no doubt in my mind that once someone sees the show, they will be a fan. Buy as many as you can, wherever you can.

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Thursday, November 10, 2005 10:19 PM

IMPERIALKNIGHT

Although the more DVDs are bought the better Firefly's chances, remember that all profits of the DVD Series go to FOX unless as I've said there is an exploitable loophole in FOX's copyrights as to a resurgence of the series such the case can be made that FOX only owns the rights to the original 13 episodes and not any longer the rights to the series itself (in the present or future tense). It is difficult to find out the precise nature of the rights Joss acquired from those halfwits at FOX. Maybe our fearless leader has a card he doesn't even know he has and even if that's not the case - Universal bought the idea for a movie thanks to our dedication in supporting the cause through those DVD sales. Any spikes in DVD sales even if those twisted bloodsuckers (at FOX) reap the monetary benefit of our efforts, we will whet Universal (and Scifi's) appetite for profit and provide (hopefully) the fuel for Firefly's rebirth to television (perhaps with some...aggressive... negotiations either in the ruthless exploitation of aforementioned loophole by Scifi/Universal or by the same token, cutting a deal with the FOX Productions and bypass the vociferous FOX Network entirely).

The goal is to convince Scifi to bite (by previously mentioned methods or others as yet unmentioned) or through the forceful acquistion of ALL rights to ALL things Firefly under a new company which could then profit through these acquisitions and accrue sufficient investment to go public under the parameters already suggested. Perhaps with the profits and some largese from Scifi (a partnership, perhaps?), we can work to give the sky back to Serenity. A lot of work and risk involved but we must find some way (in or outside the box) to make Scifi listen to us if we hope to ever see Serenity fly again in the medium and on the channel that seems so right somehow as the vehicle for its rebirth.

On a unrelated note, anyone notice that the cost for the Firefly/Serenity was unnaturally high for what we got? I was confused until I saw that Joss likes to work IN LA. Quite insane, to pay that many millions to buy computers to do CGI/VHX scripting/modeling even counting up all the people. If the high cost of the series per episode led (if anyone knows any other rationale for why FOX cancelled the BEST Scifi show ever that doesn't include perfectly reasonable questions concerning their parentage that wasn't mentioned in my earlier posts in this thread, then I'm listening...) to our beloved series' untimely demise is attributable to the excessive maintenance cost of LA's hollywood studio scene AFTER the sets are built, staff hired, sponsors lined up, advertisements canned, etc., then I have to ask (before I'm violently ill) why? The initial cost is fixed, FOX owned the studios and presumably employed all the necessary staff (equivalency factored in compared with other comparable shows - cancels out as normal operating costs). Every Firefly episode didn't require legions of CGI modelers or hordes of special effects artists. You know they didn't pay the cast multimillions (each) to do the movie or many hundred thousands of dollars (each) to do the series and I don't see anyone else bilking that kind of difference from the till. So what drove the price up into the stratospheric realm of me feeling like Joss was ripped off. Firefly/Serenity is (obviously) NOT Star Wars or Lord of the Rings. There were a few locations, some special effects (enough to satisfy), plus a few sets but the emphasis was on character development, excellent writing, and superb direction with a dynamically adriot cast - not on epic special effects every thirty seconds or lots of massively large and visually stimulating space/land battles. So I am left with these questions:

What/Who drove the cost up so high? (either Movie or Series)

AND

Is this cost the reason Scifi won't force FOX to cough up the rights? (despite its success in showing the re-runs on their network)

Any takers?

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Tuesday, December 27, 2005 3:58 AM

GORRAMCOFFEEHEAD

Hey folks, I'm a newly-fitted Browncoat (still a little tight across the shoulders, they're issuing these things so fast must've got the wrong size... ). Just watched the whole history of this show in about 10 days and am completely, entirely sold.

A few comments, regarding the comments on cost, allow me to give you some perspective on that, having worked in post-prod. in LA and lived there for quite some time, as well as several friends/acquaintances in various parts of the bus.

First thing, Serenity was made for ~$39M, which is very reasonable, bordering on cheap for the film delivered. Whedon, his UPM, etc., busted...many body parts...I'm sure to achieve that, and Zoic isn't getting rich (if they were, they'd never get work again - studios don't like paying people, esp. if they think actual profit could be involved ;-). Theirs is a very, very competitive business, and many VFX shops perpetually hover on the point of "uh, why are we doing this exactly?", as the money side of it goes...

I don't think production costs were ever a problem in the series. Besides -- if a realistic proposed budget for the show were too high, Fox wouldn't have ordered the episodes in the first place (did I mention studios don't like to spend money? Ever?)

While it is comparatively pricey to shoot in LA, doing that for Serenity was a call Whedon made to remain close to his family (see related LA Times article, "Down-Home Directing" http://www.calendarlive.com/movies/reviews/cl-ca-homefront9oct09,0,759
3222.htmlstory), and I don't blame him. Also, as DP Jack Green and many, many other directors & DPs have pointed out, the union crews found in LA county are the best in the world, period. Typically, lighting & setting up the shot is the greatest time expense on a film set. Know where the fastest & most skilled grips, gaffers & FX Sup's in the world live? Yep. You get what you pay for. Faster = less days of production, and for any given approved budget, less days = happy noises at the other end of when you call the studio ;-)

In fact, while watching this film I was actually impressed with the ingenuity & care that was taken to save money (a healthy chunk saved on the mule seq. in the beginning by using non-CG FX), and equally impressed with the results. As I mentioned earlier, Joss chose to not be too far away from his wife & kids during principal photog., and by most accounts went out of his way to cover for that.

All that said, I think the ideas regarding a fan-based investment strategy are very, very interesting indeed, and would not be dismissed out of hand if presented in a managed, structured fashion to (and by) the right parties. Funny you mentioned it, as after I watched the last disc of the series last night that's exactly what I was thinking. Money talks, and if it's real capital talking and not just the wind blowing, I guarantee you someone will listen. They may not say what you want, but you'll get an audience, and that's all you can ever hope for in show business anyway.

This show has the tremendous benefit of having a built-in viewer base, and they're an infectious & persistent lot (if my friends were any indication!) With good reason too, because this story has brilliant writing, brilliantly-cast actors that just slam it home every time, every one of them, and a director that sees this world as clear as the sky overhead. Also, it's the best there is, and that must count for something.

So is anyone organizing a money effort? Are there draft proposals in existence? Seems to me Sci-Fi is the most obvious fit, if they can afford it.

(Coat's fittin' better now...had the sleeve inside-out)

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Tuesday, December 27, 2005 5:03 AM

AAHHAAA

Several SF shows have pulled a comeback, most notably the latest (and highly popular) incarnation of Dr.Who in the UK.

I think there is another factor that must be considered too.
Joss' stories make conformist (money/power) types nervous. Mixed marriages, sheperds consorting with companions, gaudy Chinese obscenities... you'll notice these elements have already pretty much been removed from the storyline.

I'd put it like this: how do we protect Joss's freedom of storytelling, when the biz itself is treating Joss like the Alliance treated River?

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Wednesday, December 28, 2005 12:17 AM

DRAVAS

I dont believe the budget has Sci-Fi and the other channels worried, if that was the case the movie would have been shot down before people said word one. No its the legal battle Fox will make as soon as the series jumps ship. Remember they are making profit off the dvd sales and selling the rights to other stations. A movie fox can not own and cannot use copyright law because its a movie not a tv series. So i do believe we must move and attack like the alliance and attack side ways. A mini series is not like a TV series its simliar to a anime ova, now to make one step further you base the mini series base the series off the movie or how ever you want to define it. Make sure the name is changed remember fox owns the rights to "Firefly". You just have to move side ways and find a place willing to move sideways with you. Anyways thats my two bits.

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Wednesday, January 4, 2006 8:17 PM

KISHI

There's probably a really good reason for why this hasn't happened, but I'm gonna toss it up anyway. Joss has had a very positive and very successful relationship with Warner Bros. He enjoyed a lot of television success with them, with Buffy and Angel, right?

It was this company which had enough faith in him after Buffy's movie debut to give him that chance - and it payed off big. Why couldn't this be the case again? What's stopping them from taking that chance again?

This must be what going mad feels like!

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Thursday, January 5, 2006 8:29 AM

NANASHI

In brief: Sell them on iTunes...

~

I'm a new recruit here, so I hope you'll all forgive me if I speak out of turn, but here's my contribution to your ideas..

I think the most important thing right now is not more Firefly, but more awareness. It's still unclear (to me, at least) whether Joss and everyone else involved want to do more, or whether the movie was just needed to lay it all to rest.. as sad as that seems.

There is so much joy to be had, by so many people, through this series, if only it was known about! Even as a new browncoat, I've already read of the appauling marketing Firefly had.

There really aren't that many shows (20..? or so) on iTunes at the moment, but there are a great deal of iPod owners (10 million+). Regardless of anyone's opinion on Apple, there's no denying if they were sold on there it would create so much more recognition. And it wouldn't cost any money either.

And then, in the future.. who knows?

Just my two cents, for what it's worth. I'm just so overwhelmed by Firefly, and Serenity, that I just.. feel so helpless about it all, which I'm sure isn't a feeling unique to me...

Edit: Sorry Shirlockc -- I missed your comment on 'pay-per-episode' model, which kind of fits in with what I'm saying, first time round

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Thursday, January 5, 2006 8:41 AM

FOLLOWMAL

Welcome Nanashi! No, feeling helpless isn't unique, it's normal, lol. That is the feeling you have after falling in love with this 'verse and then knowing how hard the battle to get more is gonna be. We are all in the same boat, believe me.

You'll find this a shiny place and I hope you come to feel as much at home as I do.

I agree that the iTunes thing is a good idea. We need more people to be aware of this show and movie. If they are even tempted to see them, and then do-they will be hooked by them. For certain.

" You hold. Hold til I get back." Mal

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Thursday, January 5, 2006 10:52 AM

AMITON

I love the iTunes model as well. Be gentle with me as I offer what I would consider a shudder-to-think scenario that makes me wonder why this is a scary venture for a network...

I admit in advance that this is all just things that rattle around in the back of my head:

Looking at the BDMs *rental* numbers, we moved $1.64M in US-only rentals in the first week. Let's say that is at $5 per rental; that is, give or take, 300K rentals (again, in the first week and only in the US). Looking at no other numbers, if only half of those viewers continue interest in the series, then there's 150K viewers right there.

So, let's say Fox plays meanie and keeps the rights to themselves. If they took those 150K viewers, keeping in mind that that number doesn't take into account any diehards (we all *BOUGHT* the BDM, not rented it, right?) or any international numbers and put it on iTunes at $2 per episode, that's $300K in revenue. I can't imagine it costs much of anything for the content itself other than some deal in a boardroom somewhere...

Of course, not all of these people necessarily have video iPods, but then let's look at the rest of the almost guaranteed success. Going by the belief that each episode cost $2M (and there was something about that being inflated, too) -- we make another full-blown series, right? That's an hour-long episode's worth of advertising every week. Then we do have the additional revenue pools of international sales and the loyal Browncoats...who most of us would probably buy each episode two or three times just to make sure she kept flying...

If the BDM DVDs are still selling at number 5 or 6 in the second week, and were number 3 the first 5 days out, then ther *has* to be more than a million units moved, don't there? Just to hold those positions? If 1M browncoats download a $2 episode every week, then that's break-even right there, no effort, guaranteed. That can break down to 500K to buy it twice, or some of us would probably pull it 10 times a week if needed (for $20...why not?) and that only would require 100K of us, total, and I'm *quite* positive that we have those numbers. With all of the other avenues of revenue building (DVD sales, franchise merchandising, book rights, whatever), and the potential to reduce production costs over time (no more sets to build for example), then it doesn't seem possible for someone to lose money on the deal. That in and of itself defeats the concept of a "gamble." There's no long shot to worry about. There's no crossing fingers and hoping.

I don't see how we can make a much stronger case (but bringing the message to the masses never hurts!). Hell, they don't even have to advertise much since we do all of that for them by word of mouth!

Ever hopeful,
Amiton.

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Thursday, January 5, 2006 3:59 PM

LIGHT1984

First of all, I must say IMPERIALKNIGHT that you have an incredible talent for writing, each of your posts are very well thought out and yours ideas are constructed in a much better fashion than mine. I hope you believe me, I did not steal your idea, merely thought of the exact same thing, and you can read my post over in the general discussion forum. Someone in my thread had mentioned that there were several posts like this, so I thought I would make another post and consolidate them all, then I found yours. To me this one seems to have the most professional feel to it, and that is what we will need, to show that we are serious to who it matters as mentioned in another post above. I think our ideas are completely possible. You, and other posters touched on several points I was hoping someone could answer in my thread. I think the next move from here is to start organizing people to do certain things, contacting those that can help and those that hold positions of power, and people to start constructing our proposals. The part where we collect money from the fans, that will be a cake walk. So sign me up, let me know what I can do to help. Lets do more than get the ball rolling, lets put the sum-bitch in a cannon and launch it.

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Monday, January 9, 2006 9:18 PM

THECOLLECTOR

We've got to be the Cockroach...

You know those leftovers you thought you threw away in the back of the Freezer?

We just have to stick around... don't think that this has gone from the cast's mind or Joss himself... Because it hasn't. I believe this is the Unfinsished Script and he just has a case of Writers Block.

Wait till After Wonder Woman... (People eat up the Super Hero stuff like it's Candy...) but stay active (I know it's like telling something about yourself to a reader). Wait till after "Goners". Maybe he gets some prestidigitation. Maybe he can get some serious extra revenue. Go see the movies... even if it's not your thing... it still will result in some kind of money to Joss...

Maybe after two succsessful Blockbusters... he can sell something to the Sci-Fi channel about a show that he knows that could bring in tons of viewers. Maybe Sci-Fi... could then give him some air-time to do a Mini-Series (Like the Battlestar Galactica Mini)... somehow that brought in enough people to get it created into a Series.

Wait it out... Don't go away... Be Active...

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Tuesday, January 10, 2006 10:55 AM

CAENWYN

Okay. I'm new, but dedicated. We need to focus on campaigns to the Sci-fi channel. My step-brother has a contract to write and produce a show with Fox, but his show is actually aired on CBS. This means that even if FOX doesn't want to air the show themselves, if they have a network that wants it, they will produce it. If Fox thinks it can find a buyer, it will be more likely to actually happen. So, prove they have a buyer. Campaign Sci-Fi Channel and any other channel we think will buy it. Raise money and buy local advertising spots on Fox network and Sci-Fi network to actually ADVERTISE to the networks that WE WANT THIS. I'll donate money. I'll buy another box set. I've already hooked everyone I know; it's not like it's hard. One episode usually does the trick.

No power in the 'Verse can stop me!

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Tuesday, January 10, 2006 4:02 PM

LIGHT1984

Sounds good to me, I think simply getting more people wont be enough, that would be us staying active, but I think we also need to be proactive in some ways. What exactly do you mean by campaigning the sci fi channel, just write letters and stuff, get petitions together? Im sure there are many others that would be willing to help. What can I do to start?

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Wednesday, January 11, 2006 6:20 AM

CAENWYN

I looked it up. We need to ALL start emailing the Sci-Fi channel and beg for more Firefly ASAP. feedback@scifi.com

Let the email bombardment begin!!

No power in the 'Verse can stop me!

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Friday, January 13, 2006 2:11 PM

BOWIE

I'll make sure and do that. Now for spreading the verse a little wider, for those of you who can afford it, I would sugjest donating to your local Libraries. If you can do the central Libraries, cause if the central Library has it then the rest of 'em are allowed to accept donations of it. I was converted via the Library, but I know there are only about 4 disks of each episode at mine. (always checked out). I added the 4rth, but can't really afford to do more. (I'm in high school and am saving for colledge next year.) If you just want peeps to get converted I'd start a feed the library program.

If you play Nationstates.net check out the region Firefly.

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Friday, January 13, 2006 2:20 PM

BOWIE

I just thought of something, what should we say in the letter, and is there a human being we can send it too? I know that seems harsh, but if we have a context idea it will be easier to send a message, and if we have a real person to send it to, then we're more likely to get a responce, and or what we want.

If you play Nationstates.net check out the region Firefly.

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Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:58 AM

ZALIUM

Hi guys, I'm new in the world of Firefly i just discover it by the movie Serenity. First i wan't to apologize for my english i'm a french guy from canada so... anyway i just thought about is a kind of petition was made? my idea is simple: we should each fan of firefly send a email like to sc fi channel or universal or whatever and write a collective letter sign by all of us

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Thursday, January 19, 2006 3:44 PM

ELDERELEMENTALEVIL

I think another idea would be to have them release the River Tam Sessions on DVD. I mean, how many of you would not pay $20 for a higher res version of the Sessions on an official DVD, especially if all the proceeds pretty much went directly to supporting the 'verse? DVD's cost almost nothing to produce, the material has already been recorded, what would there be to lose? Who wouldn't be interested, especially if Summer and Joss wanted to add a few sessions in between as an added bonus!

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Thursday, January 19, 2006 4:14 PM

SNAP

Yeah, I think if Joss wanted to make the money to do this himself he could. All he has to do is make and sell interview/etc DVD's at $20 a pop (or more even). You know we would ALL buy every damn one of them. Especially if we knew it would fund more Firefly.

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Friday, January 20, 2006 10:38 AM

LIGHT1984

Has Joss ever posted on these forums. I noticed he had a post or two over at the official site, I sure hope he reads some of this stuff. Most likely he has thought about some of this stuff before, but we may hit something he hasnt.

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Friday, January 20, 2006 11:03 AM

SNAP

I know he posts over at whedonesque.com but you can't register there right now.

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Sunday, January 22, 2006 10:21 PM

DARKDELACROIX

just to confirm, is there an email address we can send stuff to that would actually matter? i want to make sure i send to the right place(s)

Kaylee: Everyone's got somebody. Wash, tell me I'm pretty.
Wash: Were I unwed, I would take you in a manly fashion.
Kaylee: 'Cause I'm pretty?
Wash: 'Cause you're pretty.

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Tuesday, January 24, 2006 9:51 AM

JHANCE11

Fox is going to sit on the post, trying to cut A deal nobody else would consider. Why they know of our lust for the show and will have the belief we would give away the farm to get it.

The idea of fan donations directly has merit if you could find the right people to do it. You say Josh's weakness if the selling part, we would need the right people onboard. on the whole, there's some of this that could be done

jhance11

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Tuesday, January 24, 2006 12:02 PM

AIMSTOMISBEHAVE

Quote:
Originally posted by jhance11:
You say Josh's weakness if the selling part, we would need the right people onboard.

jhance11

Joss*

and...

I would like to see not only the episodes of Firfly on itunes (would be absolutely amazing), but the soundtrack too. All they have right now is the Serenity soundtrack.

"This show isn't about the people who made history; it's about the people history stepped on."

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Wednesday, January 25, 2006 7:21 AM

JHANCE11

I think we olny to wait and send in request's to the I-tunes store. Hollywood might as well get onboard as Steven Jobs did with the music industry. This is the way we will purchase most all of our audio and video

jhance11

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Wednesday, January 25, 2006 12:05 PM

IMPERIALKNIGHT

Quote:
Originally posted by Gorramcoffeehead:

So is anyone organizing a money effort? Are there draft proposals in existence? Seems to me Sci-Fi is the most obvious fit, if they can afford it.

(Coat's fittin' better now...had the sleeve inside-out)

ANTIREAVER is said to be organizing some form of Web-driven FAN fund. I don't know if ANTIREAVER is the same Ace Underhill that's putting together the Firefly Season2.com effort. The proposals sound somewhat similiar but are different in certain key aspects at any rate. I am uncertain and frankly more than a little skeptical of this 'Mr. Underhill' ('Frodo Baggins' anyone?-LOTR) abilities, competence, and business savvy given what little I've heard from him about his proposal to acquire the rights to Firefly without first getting the endorsement of Joss and Co. before going to FOX Productions and seeking the rights to Joss' show without even confirming the possibility of a "No New Firefly series" clause for x years in FOX's contract with Universal that would prevent a Season 2 of Firefly in the first place (others suggest that this clause might exist). I don't know anything more concrete about this 'Underhill' save that several of his posts and some of my personal observations of his site makes him sound well-intentioned("...road to hell is paved with good intentions.") but in way over his head.

Anyway, this ANTIREAVER claims to live in Vancover (near the estate of Jewel Staite (Kailee)) and is currently collecting mock pledges at this time in order to garner interest from Joss, Cast, Networks in a form of resurgance that sounds somewhat similiar to what BattleStar Galactica's Internet Fan driven effort accomplished. Based upon my understanding of his proposal and assuming he can collect enough mock pledges to give his copyright lawyer/web designing friends confident expectations of payment and catch the attention and complete support and approval of Jewel/Joss/relevant parties, he will have the copyright lawyer draw up a sound arrangement that is completely compliant with all pertinent copyright laws and his web designer friend will provide fans a website in which to donate pledges to ultimately bring our show back with a money-back guarantee (if it should fail or prove insufficient) and protected with legitament third-party online security service(as yet undetermined). There is a little ambiguity as to the medium he intends to bring it back on, but Scifi might be willing to bite if he manages to turn all of these "ifs" into a reality. The thread in which he describes his proposal and accepts mock pledges is entitled "ITS TIME! Post How much you would personally give to Joss Whedon & Co. to get our Ship in the air AGAIN!" by ANTIREAVER under General Discussions Forum here at fireflyfans.net.

It's difficult to know if this will work but if successful then this MIGHT be one way to convince Scifi to bring Firefly back via a deal with FOX Productions. His proposal has some structural/technical challenges that he will have to work out himself but it holds some potential. This is only fan-based investment strategy I am aware of that might work and serve as a proactive way to attract Scifi's attention to Firefly as a practical investment. I have already 'contributed' to this fund myself. The predicates required for this to work are quite steep but no less steeper than wresting Firefly from those who ground her into the dirt, dusting her off, putting her back into working order, gathering the entire crew again, and taking her back into the black on a budget thats healthy and sustainable enough to keep her flying all by ourselves with the support of a corporation that doesn't yet exist. The choice is, as ever, yours - my fellow browncoats. What shall we do?

Whatever form is required to resurrect Firefly, it must first have the blessing and (nominal at the very least) leadership of Joss himself for the effort to be truly credible in ALL of our eyes. Simply put, if we can't convince Joss to restore Firefly by some means, then we have already lost the war. If Joss finds merit in these ideas then I'll be more than happy to assist. If Joss manages to win the fight singlehandedly without our input or effort at somepoint to his advantage or choosing later, then all of this is merely academic. Either way, we win. In the meantime, we can put into play all of our ideas from e-mailing Sci-fi once a day/week(and every other network we want for good measure!) to bring Firefly back, to buying Firefly/Serenity everything, to converting every friend and family member to Firefly thanks to an old maxim "Quality sells itself". It's the way all movements grow.

However...if we want to see results soon, then we must focus all of our individual efforts into a single coherent (and Joss led) effort to drive those that compel us to fight the Battle of Serenity Valley over and over and over again from our skies once and for all!

Long Live the Empire!

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 9:34 PM

JAYNEZTOWN

some nice ideas here

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Friday, March 24, 2006 7:29 AM

SNOFI

indeed. shame i have a short attention span and didn't read most of them but still.
indeed.

Objects in space- Simon: I'm a doctor and my sister is a ship. We had a strange childhood...

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Sunday, April 9, 2006 3:38 PM

the movie is not the Series. Only the facts have been changed, to irritate the innocent; the names of the actors and characters remain the same

Quote:
Originally posted by Kishi:
Joss has had a very positive and very successful relationship with Warner Bros. He enjoyed a lot of television success with them, with Buffy and Angel, right?

It was this company which had enough faith in him after Buffy's movie debut to give him that chance - and it payed off big.

The studio that made & distributed the movie Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and which later gave Joss the chance to take his concept to television, was 20th Century Fox. It was there that he made BtVS the series, Angel & Firefly.

Keep the Shiny Side Up . . .

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Tuesday, April 11, 2006 2:20 PM

CHMEE

I have yet to see a quote from Joss saying he would like to do ANY more of the series. Given that he killed Wash and Book, I have to question that he has any desire to continue. Has anyone heard anything that would indicate he has the slightest interest?

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Tuesday, April 11, 2006 2:40 PM

JOSSISAGOD

I believe I heard Joss say in an interview for Serenity that(I'm paraphrasing) he just needed some one to come to him and say "lets do it" or something along that line. Unfortunatly, I can't be quoted on that 'cause I forgot where I heard it.

JOSSIS(Most Definitely)AGOD

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Wednesday, April 12, 2006 5:23 AM

MERCURY002

I don't mine so much that Book died but Wash ... how could they?

anyway im new at forums but i have been reading em for a while, i think the cheapest way to get it back on is to get the old episods played (on anything we can, like itunes) and if they take off then any interest generated will show that a new series is needed, as the episodes are already made it would be much cheaper to get them playing (no production costs).

Simon:"If the battle was so horrible, why did he name the ship after it?"
Zoe:"Once you've been in serenity you never leave"

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Sunday, April 16, 2006 12:02 PM

CHMEE

Having sat across from many a pokerface in negotiations over the years, it means little that Joss says "all he needs is an offer" if he knows full well that no one will make such an offer. Thus his true intentions remain unknown.

Given the ruthless way he murdered Wash and Book, I have to believe he does NOT want to resume the series.

No I believe Joss has written off Firefly. Serenity did not perform the way I would have expected at the box office in order to continue the series. Nor with only 15 episodes is there enough of a universe to build spinoffs. Compare it to StarTrek and the vastly greater response from the Trekkies. Joss had to have been dissapointed.

Please make a liar of me Joss. I would gladly eat my words.

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Monday, April 17, 2006 1:22 PM

GREYWOLF

This may not belong here; if you need to move this to a different thread, please do, but I saw something mentioning Firefly as a Sci-Fi show.

It's really funny to see this show touted as Sci-Fi, and I mean this with the best of intentions.

It's much more a Space Western, and the beautiful thing about it is that Joss Whedon made NO pretenses to the contrary -- in fact, it strikes me that he knew exactly what he was doing.

It's fantastic and beautiful and wonderous and everything an adventure should be, and that the creator thereof had the cajones to ADMIT this to be a Space Western in updated clothing only speaks to his strength of character.

Face this: "Real" Sci-Fi is only alive in paper. Most "Sci-Fi" is nothing more than Space Opera/Space Western, with the technology serving as nothing more than a means to explore beyond the limitations of a single planet. This is NOT insignificant. The more space you have, the more you can write to fill that space. Case in point: Serenity has a star drive, but the details are never revealed. The agents have those head a'sploder things, and hover maneuverability is taken for granted (though I note there is still an ATV hanging around), and all the inhabitants of the planets ARE HUMAN OR HOMINID. There are NO EXOTIC SPECIES which have been a mainstay for much attempted Sci-Fi.

And the simplicity of being able to take that all for granted is, in Firefly's case, PRECISELY why Firefly works!

Firefly, to me, is that good book that you just can not put down. I just picked up the series DVD set, and I'd be glued to my TV to watch them all straight through if I had nothing better to do (hey, no wisecracks!).

I'm sure I'm not alone when I state that I'd love nothing more than to see Firefly pick up and do a second series (and a third, etc.).

Fantastic.

I wish I could remember more quotes. That'll come in time, I'm sure.

May the many Gods and Goddesses smile upon Joss Whedon and give him the leeway and running ground -- and airspace! -- to possibly resurrect/continue Firefly, perhaps as Serenity. I haven't seen stories this much fun since M*A*S*H (if that seems like a totally blown apart comparison, I'm making comparisons of excellence).

Too bad they killed off Wash in the movie...

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Monday, April 17, 2006 2:02 PM

CHMEE

I loved Firefly too. I'd love nothing more to see it "flying" again. I still haven't forgiven Fox for the filthy underhanded way they treated us. I own the series in DVD and the movie in DVD. I watch them all time. But I'm a realist.

Again. JOSS MAKE ME EAT MY WORDS!!!!

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Thursday, April 20, 2006 8:34 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

You know your reference to M*A*S*H is interesting. I love Firefly and Serenity, because they project love. The love of the cast and crew for each other and the stories, the love of the characters for the ship and each other. It just makes you FEEL good to see them and you want to be with them.

....and thats the feeling I used to get from M*A*S*H. I am glad you said it.

Shiny!

One day.
One mission.
One army of Browncoats.

On June 23rd, we aim to misbehave!

Nathan doesn't know it yet, but I am his one true love! Is that weird?

(he will believe, he will believe)

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Thursday, April 20, 2006 9:51 AM

BRITEXPAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Mercury002:
I don't mine so much that Book died but Wash ... how could they?

anyway im new at forums but i have been reading em for a while, i think the cheapest way to get it back on is to get the old episods played (on anything we can, like itunes) and if they take off then any interest generated will show that a new series is needed, as the episodes are already made it would be much cheaper to get them playing (no production costs).

Simon:"If the battle was so horrible, why did he name the ship after it?"
Zoe:"Once you've been in serenity you never leave"

I love your idea of itunes, I downloaded all the BSG episodes and I love that I have them on the go, I also burnt all of the Firefly and Serenity to my Ipod to.
It would be a great way to get people interested who may not have given it much thought before. Especially since each episode is only $2.

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