There is no continuity error with River's rescue. by Adamwankenobi

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There is no continuity error with River's rescue.

POSTED BY: ADAMWANKENOBI
UPDATED: Thursday, July 13, 2006 08:54
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VIEWED: 12105
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Tuesday, May 9, 2006 9:18 AM

Many have claimed that Simon's description of River's rescue in the BDS and the rescue depicted in the BDM conflict with one-another. This is not the case. The two actually mesh together quite well if you really think about it. To see what I mean, read my article on Simon Tam on Wikipedia ([url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Tam).

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Tuesday, May 9, 2006 9:24 AM

CHRISISALL

I'll buy that for a dollar.

Kidding. Yeah, works fo me.

Chrisisall intuitive

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Tuesday, May 9, 2006 9:50 AM

SIMONB

Gorram straight, works for me.

Plus, when Simon was first telling the crew of Serenity his escape, he was bound to keep things back from them during his initial re-telling (like River being psychic) because he'd just met them, and as a wanted fugitive among strangers, well...that's bound to make you cagey and cautious.

- Shiny. Let's be bad guys.

That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die

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Tuesday, May 9, 2006 9:58 AM

STICK

Remember though wiki is 100% user submitted. The Simon Tam article on Wiki could have been one persons way of bringing together the series and the movie. In the commentary for the BDM Joss mentions a couple of times that he broke cannon to tell the story of Serenity. If he didn't break cannon he would have had a hard time catching the audience up with the back history of the crew of Serenity. Frankly, I agree. I'd rather have the story with continuity problems that appeals to a large audience to a story that makes perfect sense to a small cult following.

"Once you've been to serenity you never leave... you just learn to live there"

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Tuesday, May 9, 2006 10:04 AM

AZHEA

Shiny!

I've had this discussion with my other half...he insists there's conflict... now I can point out that Simon may well have been lying when he told his story in the pilot.

*************************************************
I mean to confound these bungers!
http://www.freewebs.com/liadanfirefly/index.htm

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Tuesday, May 9, 2006 6:30 PM

THIEFJEHAT

I'll buy into that.

Although my gut tells me that it is still a mess up that was fixed by Joss. But it can work. It's certainly not the worst continuity error I've seen on a show.

Do not fear me. Ours is a peaceful race, and we must live in harmony.

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Tuesday, May 9, 2006 6:51 PM

JOHNBOY

Don't forget that Simon has nothing to gain by telling Jayne (in particular) that he is a frakking Action Man who is capable of Daring-Do.

Much better to let Jayne and Mal and the rest think that he is a wimp. It wasn't until the end of the pilot that Mal grasped the fact tthat Simon "ain't week, and that's not nothing".

Jayne never twigged, though that's hardly surprising.

Cheers,
Johnboy

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Tuesday, May 9, 2006 7:07 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

If you read the Serenity novel, it also ties the two together. Made sense of it to me!

*************************************************
One summer.
One mission.
One legion of Browncoats.

Starting June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:40 AM

PDCHARLES

What happened? He see your face?

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I'll buy that for a dollar.

Kidding. Yeah, works fo me.

Chrisisall intuitive

I LIKE IT!!! *take that, storefront*

On topic:
the storyline meshed well for me

Robocopisall

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Thursday, May 11, 2006 8:44 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by pdcharles:

I LIKE IT!!! *take that, storefront*

You a COLLEGE STUDENT?
Think you're smart enough to outrun a bullet?!

Couldn't resist Chrisisall

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Thursday, May 11, 2006 8:18 PM

JUTIN

RoboCop rocks

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Friday, May 12, 2006 4:19 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by JuTin:
RoboCop rocks

Hell, I'm a fan of all three.

Hijacking Chrisisall

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Friday, May 12, 2006 1:03 PM

ADAMWANKENOBI

Quote:
Originally posted by Stick:
Remember though wiki is 100% user submitted. The Simon Tam article on Wiki could have been one persons way of bringing together the series and the movie.

I wrote that article. It's not my POV. I simply looked at what the BDS and BDM tell us, and combined the facts from each since they are set in the same continuity. Note at the end there is a section describing the controversy on this plot point.

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Friday, May 12, 2006 1:18 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Well, let's be honest with ourselves.

We can explain and reconcile the information, but it WAS a change. It happens to be a necessary change to avoid confusing newbies, but it's still a change.

I would explain away Star Trek inconsistencies all day long, because I loved the show, but I never lost sight of the fact that I was fixing something that was imperfect about the show in my mind so that I could continue to enjoy it in my heart.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, May 15, 2006 9:18 AM

RUGBUG

After being a serious X-Files fan, I have little problem with small continuity errors. X-Files was riddled with errors...often very LARGE ones that made one hang your head in disgust. The Whedon shows were always refreshing in the attention paid to continuity.

Having watched the BDM before the BDS, I will say that having another group rescue River would have been flat...and would also have lengthened the character introduction and thus shortened other areas. No thanks. Give me a little tweak for more story anyday.

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Monday, May 22, 2006 9:49 AM

ADAMWANKENOBI

I watched the BDM again today and noticed something. First off, the Operative tells Dr. Mathias that Simon "spent a fortune on the contacts to infiltrate this place." Later on, Simon tells Mal and the crew that "the people who helped me break River out had intel that River and the other subjects were being imbedded with behavioral conditioning." Also, notice that the ship that picks up Simon and River in the beginning is not Serenity, but is a different ship. These things would support his explanation of River's rescue in the series.

Also, when watching the FF episode "Ariel" again the other day, I noticed how familiar Simon seems to be with infiltrating Alliance facilities as he does with the hospital in that episode. This would support the idea that his rescue of River was simply part of the plan that "his contacts" had.

This makes me think that this wasn't a continuity error after all.

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Friday, June 9, 2006 4:30 AM

NIRWIN

I don't care about the continuity problem, but it is one.

In the BDM he frees River, she's conscious, talks to him and actively takes part in the escape.

Then in the BDS, when she is released from Cryo she is positively shocked to see Simon.

She wasn't that disorientated after the suspension of cerebral functions.

River being nuttier than a walnut whip don't cut it as an explanation for me.

---
Nirwin

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Wednesday, June 14, 2006 2:09 PM

ALIENZOOKEEPER

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by JuTin:
RoboCop rocks
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hell, I'm a fan of all three.

Hijacking Chrisisall

Me-
Liked the last Robocop best of all. That whole thing of stripping a man's humanity away and him eventually getting it back...

There's a scene with Robocop carrying Lewis up to the altar ("Officer Down") which is almost as over the top as the scene in Spiderman II where the passengers on the Ell pull spidey back into the train after he saves them.

Manipulative b@st@rds, even Joss 8-)

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Wednesday, June 14, 2006 2:36 PM

MER

Quote:
Originally posted by nirwin:
I don't care about the continuity problem, but it is one.

In the BDM he frees River, she's conscious, talks to him and actively takes part in the escape.

Then in the BDS, when she is released from Cryo she is positively shocked to see Simon.

She wasn't that disorientated after the suspension of cerebral functions.

River being nuttier than a walnut whip don't cut it as an explanation for me.

---
Nirwin

In the book it explains why she was in the Cyro. The ship was either on autopilot. Simon worked it by remote control to get it to them.
He put her in the Cyro (which I think is used for dead bodies-I forgot) there b/c there was nowhere else to hide her.
And her shock to see Simon? Maybe she's in shock. She wakes up to a new surrounding and trust me, that's scary.

Otherwise, yes there is an error and truthifully, I rather not read into it b/c I don't want to cringe when I watch Serenity. O_O;;

To be on topic, yea I agree. I merely saw it as Simon wasn't exactly telling the WHOLE story to the crew. ^-^

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Wednesday, June 14, 2006 2:47 PM

22CLAWS

Entirely pointy.

I always assumed the account of River' rescue in the pilot was amended with caution for the crew. I should admit, I saw the movie first.

The average fox has 16 claws.
22

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Thursday, June 15, 2006 4:38 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by AlienZookeeper:

Me-
Liked the last Robocop best of all. That whole thing of stripping a man's humanity away and him eventually getting it back...

Most folk miss that part of the story while they're ripping on the flick for not having Peter Weller or the 'F' word in it.
I liked the film immensely, and think it's such a shame that the director (Fred Dekker) took a career hit for it's lack of financial success.

You call me Roboisall

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Thursday, June 22, 2006 10:32 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Look lower.

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Thursday, June 22, 2006 10:32 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

I'll admit that I hit submit twice, why are there four posts?

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Thursday, June 22, 2006 10:32 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Lower still.

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Thursday, June 22, 2006 10:33 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by nirwin:
Then in the BDS, when she is released from Cryo she is positively shocked to see Simon.

If that was shock then I take back every single thing I ever said about Summer being a good actor.

I don't want to do that but if her reaction to Simon was supposed to be shock ... well I don't have a choice do I?

When I saw that scene, long before the movie was even being considered as a possibility, I thought that River's distinct lack of shock was showing that even disoriented, naked, screaming, and in a strange place she could quickly adapt to accept new information, that being the presense of her brother.

I didn't think she'd seen him before, but I certainly didn't think she was shocked to see him.

Quote:
She wasn't that disorientated after the suspension of cerebral functions.

I agree, in the pilot she was out of it for ages, after suspension of cerebral functions she was perfect after a quick puke.

The series makes it very clear that recovering from cryo is more difficult than recovering from being dead.

Simon has no problem with the idea of operating sensitive equipment after being dead, but even as late as The Train Job Simon still thinks that River will have trouble recognizing him and forget that they are on a ship.

Obviously Simon, an accomplished doctor, believes that one is FAR more disorienting than the other.

-

As for the continuity, well first off Simon is dishonest to the crew constantly.

Throughput the series, especially in Trash, Simon acts as if he knows that River is psychic (according to the movie he did) and yet in the last episode, Objects in Space, he tries to steer the conversation away from that, never flat out denying it, but refusing to say it is so much as possible. Even then, after all that time onboard, he's still being less than honest with them. It is a lie of omission I admit, but those are the best kind.

Second this is what I said in another thread:

Quote:
Originally posted by me:
There is no need for Simon to lie, if he [Joss] has adopted that stance I don't see why because it would imply layers of complexity far beyond what we have seen in the movie and the series.

Too much complexity in my opinion.

I mean I see why you would want to say he lied, it implies he is inept which works towards furthering the character, but it also means that something he said must not have been true.

So
Either he was not contacted by men
Or they were not underground
Or they were not a movement
Or they didn't say she was in danger
Or they didn't say the government was playing with her brain
Or they didn't ask for funding
Or they didn't say they could get her out
Or they didn't mention cryo
Or they didn't say they’d bring her to Persephone

Well he was in contact with them so they must have contacted him even it was a reply instead of initiation.
We know that they were underground.
We know that he paid them.
We know that they got her out as part of an orchestrated plan (so they must have said they could at some point.)
We also know that they told him about the conditioning.

That means the only things he could be lying about are:
The men being a movement
Them saying she was in danger
Them being involved in the cyro bit
And
Them bringing her to Persephone

If they were not a movement it hardly matters much.
If they didn't say she was in danger it still doesn’t make much of a difference.

That means that the only reason to say Simon was lying is if the people who got River out were not involved in the cryo bit and/or getting River to Persephone.

This means that there was an entire as yet unrevealed and indeed unhinted at leg of the journey. Simon was involved with some other group of people who either got him the cryo equipment or passage to Persephone, or both.

Why make that assumption? Isn't it so much easier to assume everything he said was true?

This was in response to someone saying that Joss said that he has adopted the stance that Simon lied even though he did not start with it.

Obviously the original intention was not for Simon to be personally involved with the rescue, but then again if you read the script for the pilot the original intention was for River to be delivered to a different planet, and the original intention, were it followed, would made parts of the series impossible. Stories change, the only part that is canon is what is on screen, anything that was deleted, unfilmed, unmentioned, or unsure is hearsay at best and wrong otherwise.

To have a contradiction something needs to contradict. Not seem like it contradicts, or disagree with what was in someone's head, it needs to actually contradict. Nothing in the rescue contradicts.

Actually it creates a nice arc for Simon.

In the start of a movie Simon is a total pacifist who goes non-lethal all the way and won’t even hurt the people torturing his sister.

In the first episode of the series Simon is a total badass who will make a jump that could kill or cripple him off of a catwalk to save his sister but still he won't shoot an unarmed man.

Later in the series and the movie he develops a spine when his sister is not in immediate danger to the point that he'll punch Mal when everyone is all happy and safe-like.

Simon starts off totally non-violent in all possible ways (the rescue of River) and ends up with Jayne's alcohol in hand preparing to take on the entire alliance after Mal makes his speech. Joss talks a lot about arc and the rescue really shows you where Simon was before he was willing to hurt people.

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Thursday, June 22, 2006 5:18 PM

SHINYSEVEN2

As far as I'm concerned, IT'S ALL ABOUT SIMON, which is why I think of the movie and the series as being different canons. I think the real clincher isn't Serenity the Pilot--it's Ariel. Look at the way River acts when they're running away from the Blue Hands Men. If she's a trained psychic assassin, it sure is news to her. She doesn't really "switch on" until War Stories.

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Thursday, June 22, 2006 6:13 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by shinyseven2:
As far as I'm concerned, IT'S ALL ABOUT SIMON, which is why I think of the movie and the series as being different canons. I think the real clincher isn't Serenity the Pilot--it's Ariel.

I always thought that Ariel was the best argument for continuity, I mean that's where you really find out that Simon trusts River's not-natural senses. He immediately assumes that she knows exactly where she's going in spite of the fact that it is impossible for her t have that knowledge. It, combined with Safe, Trash, Objects in Space, and a few other episodes, makes it so easy to believe he knew she was a psychic all along.

Quote:
Look at the way River acts when they're running away from the Blue Hands Men. If she's a trained psychic assassin, it sure is news to her. She doesn't really "switch on" until War Stories.

I think that's the point. In the series by the end of Objects in Space we are left believing that she has been trained as a combination psychic assassin for two years and yet she knew nothing about it until she killed the people in War Stories.

In the movie, if we take it as a different continuity entirely, we are left to believe that she was trained, mostly while unconscious, as a psychic assassin for an unknown amount of time and yet knew nothing about it till she was triggered eight months later.

If we combine them we end up believing that she was trained as a psychic assassin (Objects in Space+Serenity the movie) for two years (Serenity the episode) but displayed no physical skills in this regard (the first 9 episodes) until she killed three people with her eyes closed to save a friend (War Stories) and still didn't know the full extent of what happened and what she learned while it happened until she'd been there for a total of 8 months at which time she was triggered (Serenity the movie.)

-

My point is that I'm confused how her not knowing about herself in Ariel is significant since the series made it clear the episode after that in spite of what she didn't know she was well trained and, perhaps more to the point, the movie made it seem that she didn't know until she was triggered, which was well after Ariel.

-
--
-

I'm not trying to shoot down your idea or change your mind, I just really fail to see how it implies discontinuity.

When you combine the two you don't get a situation where she knew and then she didn't know and then she knew again, you get a situation where she was worked on in her sleep, she slowly came into the realization of what was done to her as she progressed from shying away from the sight of a gun (Serenity the episode) to killing people with her eyes closed (War Stories) and from saying whatever she found out with her psychic ability even when it could get her killed (Safe) to using that ability to gain the insight needed to skillfully manipulate a dangerous person (Objects in Space) and finally after she's managed to start getting it all down life does what it does best, it mucks it all up.

I see a progression, not a contradiction. I also see someone doing a nice job of cobbling two things together as seamlessly as is believable (when it gets too seamless it even smells fake) when it could have been a train wreak. All Joss had to do was have the work done on River when she was awake and it all would come crashing down, but he didn't do that. And I'm really confused as to why you think the movie implies it wouldn't be news to her in Ariel.

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Thursday, June 22, 2006 7:00 PM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by Adamwankenobi:
Many have claimed that Simon's description of River's rescue in the BDS and the rescue depicted in the BDM conflict with one-another. This is not the case. The two actually mesh together quite well if you really think about it. To see what I mean, read my article on Simon Tam on Wikipedia ([url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Tam).

Don't have time to argue nor read the entire thread. I'll just point out that you removed the contradiction by not mentioning it.

ie what happened in the BDM goes against Simons speech in the aired pilot ep.

Sorry guy, but this just doesn't cut the mustard.

If you wanted to resolve the issue "correctly" you should just cite that Joss himself has stated that Simon lied in the aired pilot. Which IMO is a rather trite and pathetic explination for wanting (having to?) rewrite history.

My guess, since you registered after the BDM came out, is that you want to keep what you find exciting, etc as "correct" (ie from the BDM) since you probably saw that first, instead of going according to the "RL" chronology.

bah.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Friday, June 23, 2006 3:28 AM

SHINYSEVEN2

replying to christhecynic: the series has an arc where both River and Simon become more accustomed to and more comfortable with violence, and also an arc where they gradually are accepted and become part of the crew. Then the whole thing re-sets in the movie.

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Friday, June 23, 2006 3:29 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I'll just point out that you removed the contradiction by not mentioning it.

So this:
"There is a perceived discrepancy regarding Simon's role in the rescue of River, as the series and film offer slightly conflicting views on how exactly River is released from the Academy. The explanation given in the series (more specifically, in the pilot episode "Serenity") is that Simon funded the group that smuggled River out ..."

Is what you call, "Not mentioning it"? Interesting to say the least. Did you, in fact, read the article?

Quote:
ie what happened in the BDM goes against Simons speech in the aired pilot ep.

Clearly you did not read the article.

Once again, the first paragraph of the article in question:
"The explanation given in the series (more specifically, in the pilot episode "Serenity")"

Later in the article it, of course, quotes Simon's speech.

Quote:
Sorry guy, but this just doesn't cut the mustard.

So what you're saying is that because he talked about and indeed quoted the controversy, which to you means he did not mention it, it does not cut the mustard.

Again, interesting to say the least.

-

Of course this is more or less what I expect from you. The last time you argued that it went against Simon's speech you cited something that occurred in neither the aired pilot nor the unaired pilot.

This time you won't even say what part of the speech it contradicts. If you can not be bothered to watch the episode there is a transcript of the aired pilot available here:
http://www.whedonsworld.com/files/Transcripts/Firefly/01_Serenity_Tran
script.doc

Please tell me what the movie contradicts and quote the actual speech this time.

-
--
-

Personally I do not agree with the way in which he resolved the issue, but I think it is a bit odd to say that he did not mention it.

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Friday, June 23, 2006 4:21 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by shinyseven2:
replying to christhecynic: the series has an arc where both River and Simon become more accustomed to and more comfortable with violence, and also an arc where they gradually are accepted and become part of the crew. Then the whole thing re-sets in the movie.

I disagree that the whole thing resets as such.

First off I assume that you're talking about becoming part of the crew and not both typs of arc because in terms of River and her abilities she's pretty damn comfortable with them, and in terms of Simon he's definitely accustomed to violence.

In terms of crew even Jayne seems to care for River durring the bank job, though as we expect from Jayne that loyaty is fleeting. Kaylee's obviously accepted them, though that isn't surprising and probably isn't significant, Zoe is still worried about them, Wash doesn't really make his feelings known but he shows no indication that his relationship with them has changed.

The only relationship that seems to have changed is the one with Mal. The crew is larger than one person, even if that person is the captain. If it reset all of the relationships would have changed, and I think (and will explain why in the paragraph after next) the one with Mal would have changed in a different way if it had reset.

Right from the pilot we know that Mal can get pretty damn far from accepting when times are hard, to the point where he's even yelling at Zoe, the person closest to him in the world. Simon and River are a lot less close than Zoe (meaning he'd go further) and his reasons for not liking them are pretty damn clear. The ship is falling apart, he's worried about having enough money to eat, and the cause he identifies for not having jobs is that he has to turn down plenty of them to keep River off the radar.

He's already come close to death once because of equipment failure, and he knows that that would mean not just his death but Zoe, Wash, and Kaylee's deaths as well. And why are they all so close to dying? Simon and River. The fact that he didn't kick them off the ship before the movie even started is a show that in spite of the fact that they may be the cause of everyone's death, in Mal's mind at any rate, and he has no objections to them leaving, they're still part of the crew.

If that wasn't enough the fact that he picked her up and brought her on board when the threat had become more immediate than parts falling off his ship and a need to eat, definitely shows that there's still a strong relationship there.

If I'm right and Mal would have kicked the cause of his problems off the ship were they not crew that means that they are crew, and thus you’d have to assume that they spent a good deal of time becoming crew even if you watched the movie without the series, since that is exactly what they did in the series it fits.

If I am wrong, and Mal would have risked his entire crew to keep fugitives on the ship whom he did not consider crew even after it became a very real threat to the continued to survival of his ship and his crew... well then I guess I just don't get Mal. I thought he cared about the crew enough to do what it took to protect them. I thought he was the kind of person to dump them in a shuttle and leave them for the feds if people he didn't care about were a threat to the lives of his crew.

-

I freely admit I could be very, very wrong, which is more than I can say for some (I'm not referring to you), and am fully willing to change my mind, but to do that I'd need something that I didn't see as fitting. I assume continuity until show otherwise, even though I know full well that what happened in the movie wasn't what was intended originally. The story changed, yes, but I've never heard of any story going as originally intended and indeed we know that the series was different from the intent from the second episode on.

Since my conception of the character of Mal is that he wouldn't put up with trouble like Simon and River unless he already considered them part of the crew the fact that they became that to him over the course of the series fits. Since the other characters have the same attitude towards them as they did at the end of the series, except Jayne who is ever so slightly more accepting (I just don‘t see him being as concerned for River in the series as he was when she collapsed in that bank) I think it’s fair to say that it fits with the series.

-

By the way, I've got no interest in converting people to my side, I know sometimes I come off like I’m trying to say, "I'm right and you’re all wrong," but I don't do it on purpose and I certainly don't mean that. I like knowing what others think and I like knowing how they see what I don't. I mean, for example, I just can't see Mal keeping Simon and River onboard when the result is the state we see the crew and ship in at the start of the movie unless there was already an arc like that in the series, so I can’t see how you can claim that it reset.

That's why I'm presenting my reasons for disagreeing, not because I'm trying to shoot down your way of looking at it but because I want to know what makes you see it in a different way. I want to know how it is that you look at Mal and think he'd keep them on the ship if the bond in the series hadn’t been made.

I bring this up because sometimes people cite things that never happened, make references to stuff that does support their argument but doesn't actually exist. That I do try to shoot down, and for some reason it never occurred to me until now that people might not see the difference, might not realize that so long as someone isn't doing that I'm not saying they're wrong, just that I disagree.

(Even if someone does have their facts wrong I'm not saying they're belief is wrong, just the facts. If they do it knowing that their facts are wrong or just repeatedly making assumptions they don't check I'm usually also saying I'm pissed off at them since I hate that practice.)

I'd hate for people to think I'm going around saying, "You're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong," whenever I'm in an arugment here. That's not why I get into them, I join them because I want to understand what others think.

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Friday, June 23, 2006 5:54 AM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:

So this:
"There is a perceived discrepancy regarding Simon's role in the rescue of River, as the series and film offer slightly conflicting views on how exactly River is released from the Academy. The explanation given in the series (more specifically, in the pilot episode "Serenity") is that Simon funded the group that smuggled River out ..."

I read the history section in which ther is no mention of it. Rather "convenient" considering people have a tendancy to go with what they hear first rather than thinking about the cronological order of things.

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:

Is what you call, "Not mentioning it"? Interesting to say the least. Did you, in fact, read the article?

A rather general assumption that is not a good one given the reality of the situation ie the contradiction was not even referenced where it should be referenced.

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:

...

Again, interesting to say the least.

More and more bad assumptions... assumption... read the first 3 letters of that word.

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:

Of course this is more or less what I expect from you. The last time you argued that it went against Simon's speech you cited something that occurred in neither the aired pilot nor the unaired pilot.

This time you won't even say what part of the speech it contradicts. If you can not be bothered to watch the episode there is a transcript of the aired pilot available here:
http://www.whedonsworld.com/files/Transcripts/Firefly/01_Serenity_Tran
script.doc

Please tell me what the movie contradicts and quote the actual speech this time.

Perhaps it's that I just rolled out of bed, perhaps it's because you are being very much overly aggessive because someone doesn't agree with you. But, in all seriousness, every single time we've met on this board you've acted like this. So, my conclusion is that you are a complete fucking asshole, and b/c of that, I see no reason to converse with you anymore.

Good day, sir.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Friday, June 23, 2006 6:16 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I read the history section in which ther is no mention of it.

So you freely admit to not reading the article in question?

After all this thread isn't about the history article that was probably written by someone else, it is about the article called, "Controversy."

Rather "convenient" that you skipped over what the topic is about in order to make your point.

Quote:
Perhaps it's that I just rolled out of bed, perhaps it's because you are being very much overly aggessive because someone doesn't agree with you.

I'm agressive because you refuse to back up what you say and sometimes use things that never happened as evidence. I'm also annoyed that every time someone points this fact out to you you throw around insults and refuse to respond to the points they brought up.

Quote:
But, in all seriousness, every single time we've met on this board you've acted like this. So, my conclusion is that you are a complete fucking asshole, and b/c of that, I see no reason to converse with you anymore.

Good day, sir.

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Saturday, July 1, 2006 10:33 AM

OVERLORD

Well I may be new here but I think it is safe to say that we should not argue with eachother regardless of who said what. I just left a forum arguement on another website so I am trying to mellow it out here before it becomes worse.

Back on topic now. I read the entire article on Wikipedia about inconsistency involving River's rescue. I personally believe that the Wikipedia article is very accurate in its information but I can also see how it can be disproved at the same time. Personally, I would not be surprised if Simon lied to the crew of Serenity about River's rescue but the fact that it is never indicated that he lied makes me somewhat suspicious. I mean, we always know if Simon is lying in Firefly (because we see the end results) but for this one we never knew, we just took Simon's word as the honest one and moved forward. I believe that Simon was lying though because the theory made in Wikipedia is very plausible and cannot necessarily be disproved. Also, the fact that there is a continuity error would ruin it all for me, I tend to think that Joss Whedon is a Godlike writer.

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 6:43 PM

GHOSTTOWN

MY gripe isn't with his story at all. Fine, maybe he lied or maybe it was an oversight. I don't care. My confliction in more cahracter driven. Simon can pretend to be a scientist and flawlessly interrigate an Alliance general before he whips out a stun grenade and whisks his sister away...but he can't act suave or keep his mind calm when he was supposed to pretend he wanted to buy mud? I love Firefly, I love Serenity. And Simon and River are two of my favorite characters, so that starnge character confliction is the only thing in the entire series that strikes me wrong. Interesting disscusion though.

Cory

"That's A Dumb Planet"

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Sunday, July 2, 2006 6:44 PM

GHOSTTOWN

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Thursday, July 6, 2006 4:52 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by GhostTown:
Simon can pretend to be a scientist and flawlessly interrigate an Alliance general before he whips out a stun grenade and whisks his sister away...but he can't act suave or keep his mind calm when he was supposed to pretend he wanted to buy mud?

Every so often I talk about how people see things in different ways.

I'm assuming that when you said "flawlessly" you meant it even though you were obviously joking four words later when you talked about a "general." If that's a mistake sorry.

But assuming that you were serious and you do believe that interrogation of Dr. Mathias was flawless I have to say that we looked at that scene in very different ways.

At first he does a good job, he says as little as possible, "I've heard that," to River being the star pupil and, "Tell me about them," when the side effects are mentioned. His third line in the movie is shoving his foot right in his mouth:
"What use do we have for a psychic if she's insane?"

Think about that for a second, any one standing in that room would know exactly what use she was and, as importantly, that, "She's not just a psychic," if the doctor was thinking at all he would have known something was wrong by the fact that that was asked. Lucky for Simon clearance apparently counts over logic. I think that's how that works everywhere though, I mean people just assume that if you have the clearance you should have it.

But in addition to showing that he doesn't know anything about the project he is supposedly inspecting we also see emotion creeping through. When asked why he was there Simon turns to the tried and true high school way of weaseling out of a question, "Am a making you nervous?" It's either the most briliant or most clumsy defelction in existance, but it works both in real life and in the movies. I suppose it could be flawless, and in my mind it is when Simon is doing the best in his act. The problem is that even though it is perfectly executed it's something that people far more awkward than Simon (yes, there are people more awkward than Simon) have done just as well in real life. Even so, when he said it I got the impression he'd read something like, "How to Bullshit for the Weak Minded," several times before actually walking into the faclity. Then again that's what I'd think Simon would do anyway.

Simon only has one line left in his act, "How is she physically?" and his feeling really seeps through in that one, I wouldn't call it flawless, but then again I'm not you.

My point is that watching it I felt like Simon had practiced this and still managed to screw it up and it was only the fact that Dr. Mathias was totally off his guard that allowed him to go as long as he did (not long) before he dropped the act and stunned the guy.

Where with the mud thing he clearly had no time practice and he couldn't just say, "I've heard that," "Tell me about them," "Why is that?"() and, "Am I making you nervous," the only thing he said in Serenity that wasn't a direct response as simple as, "Uh-huh," was, "How is she physically?" and that hardly added to his crediblity.

When I saw Serenity I didn't see a flawless interrogation, I saw a thing that showed the benifit of rank. Ask yourself this, if he'd forged identification saying that he was the new medic, and asked the same questions, do you think he'd have lasted that long? Maybe you do, but I think he'd have gotten a simple, "If you don't know the answer to that you shouldn't be here," and then locked up pending investigation.

He walked in, demonstrated in less than 20 words that he had no idea what was going on or what the facility was for, and was feared rather than suspected. That is the benifit of rank. It never even occured to me to compare that to what happened in Jaynestown because I never considered the possibility that he was shoved in there without any practice on what to say and how to act, which is exactly what happened at the mud sale.

-

I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just saying that I never considered Simon's job in Serenity's opening flawless, I considered it a barely adequate job and always assumed that he'd practiced more than a little for the big day.

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Wednesday, July 12, 2006 5:34 AM

IMPROBABILITYZERO

I'm curious as to how when Joss mentions that he had to change things for the beginning of the BDM, a bunch of fans will create a continuity to fit the BDM and BDS together. Though the novelization does that also, I still would take it with a grain of salt since novelizations (and this one in particular) have little input from the creator. I can certainly see why BDM continuity was altered, and I can see how the link between BDM and BDS make sense. My question is, is it that important to force the two parts to fit? Afterall it is the journey that counts.

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Wednesday, July 12, 2006 6:48 AM

HANS

Quote:
Originally posted by GhostTown:
MY gripe isn't with his story at all. Fine, maybe he lied or maybe it was an oversight. I don't care. My confliction in more cahracter driven. Simon can pretend to be a scientist and flawlessly interrigate an Alliance general before he whips out a stun grenade and whisks his sister away...but he can't act suave or keep his mind calm when he was supposed to pretend he wanted to buy mud? I love Firefly, I love Serenity. And Simon and River are two of my favorite characters, so that starnge character confliction is the only thing in the entire series that strikes me wrong. Interesting disscusion though.

First of all, when was he "interrogating an Alliance general"? He was talking with a doctor.

Second of all, as others have pointed out, Simon's behaiviour at the start of the movie is consistent with his behaviour during the series. In "Ariel" he is cool, calm, and efficient in his dealings with the hospital authorities while undercover. The Simon we see in Ariel is the same Simon we see at the start of the movie. When he's put into the world of bureaucracy, technology, and wealth he fits right in, because that's where he came from. When he's out on the frontier he's clumsy because he's out of place.

The exact same thing happens in reverse with Jayne. On the frontier he's cool and in control. When they are on Ariel he's a bumbling buffoon, almost blowing their cover when they enter the hospital.

On the greater issue of a perceived continuity error, I think error is too strong a word. Sure, Joss didn't have the movie in mind when he wrote the TV series, but there's nothing I see that is in direct contrast. Any so-called errors can be explained away by Simon fudging his words with the crew, etc.

Remember, breaking into an Alliance high-security facility could very well be a capital offence. Is he going to admit to it in front of a group of mercenary strangers, or is he going to say that someone else did it? I do think there were others involved with River's escape (they probably smuggled Simon into the faciilty, then took River from him after he got her out, put her in the cryo capsule, and arranged for her transfer off-world) but I think he was hiding his own involvement.

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Wednesday, July 12, 2006 9:05 AM

ORMAYBEMIDGETS

What I don't understand:

If Simon snuck River out himself, why did she have to be put in cryo? Obviously a ship came for them. My first thought would be that they did it because the Alliance put out alerts on River, and she would be seen and turned in. But it only makes sense that there would be an alert on Simon, too (and later we see that there's a warrant out for him), and certainly a pair of sunglasses isn't a good enough disguise to fool anyone looking for him. Another thought would be that he was afraid of how River would act. But in the Academy she seems fine. Or, okay, not fine, but fine-ish; no worse off than she was once she got out of cryo. Simon had only a little time to observe her, but in that time he saw her speed, her physic abilities, and that awesome balancing on the ceiling thing. He also apparently gives her a lot of credit, as when the alarms go off he tells her to "Find out." (Correct me if I'm wrong on that.) If he thought that she was acting alright, why would he put her in cryo? I'm sure he thought she was safer awake, and even if he wasn't aware of her physical abilities, an awake girl can fight back better than a girl locked in a box.

More than that, are we supposed to believe that Simon let someone else put River in cryo? I wouldn't think that he would trust anyone that much, even the people who helped get River out. After all, they are "underground" people, who he heard about in Blackout Zones. Simon lived his whole life in an Alliance friendly, rule-abidding household. He's going to be suspicious of these guys.

-
DB: Doesn't exactly fit the thug in the profile alley. Wait, what?

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Wednesday, July 12, 2006 2:13 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

wikipedia article aside, I have my issues. ( Pardon for the late reply )

Simon showing up at the facility to get River would have made even bigger felon, initially. His face would have been splattered all over the coretex. ( Never mind that he had been jailed once before, making his ability to waltz into said facility all the more unlikely ) However, had River been sprung by an 'insider' in like manner makes more sense in that she could have been 'asleep' at the time of the abduction and then easily put into cryo. This way, Simon would have a bit more leeway in getting away, and not immediatly seen as a suspect by the Alliance. Also, when River wakes up out of cryo, she doesn't have the recent memory of him freeing her, and is more shocked to see him.

Further, Simon seemed to be clueless of the 'neural stripping' that the good doctor talked about rigth before the escape. Simon's a doctor, and he should have picked up a great deal more of info w/ his brief time in the facility than was shown in the BDS. That's the whole point of Ariel, where he ...,what? DISCOVERS what they did to her. Unless Simon had bout of amnesia himself, what he found out shouldn't have been such a shock.

IMO, Simon doing the rescue himself is a flimsy adaptation for the big screen, but it doesn't completely destroy the continuity to the series.

I don't like it, it has too many holes, but it still floats. Barely.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, July 12, 2006 9:30 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

ormaybemidgets, what he starts to say to her is "find a hiding place." but she's way ahead of him, so all he gets out is "find a h-" and then watches in awe as she climbs a wall and hides on a ceiling.
The novel says she was put in cryo because the ship he had with him had a scan-proof hull and was also a single-seater. I'm not sure this makes absolute sense, but it comes the closest to making sense.

AURaptor, the mentioned "neural stipping" was not a lot of information; he wouldn't know exactly what was done. It might have been drugs, it might have been something else, or he might not have been thinking about it too much because he was so preoccupied with seeing his sister in such a state.

Thinking back to the pilot episode and Dobson's "I know what you did for your sister, it doesn't make you a killer." comment, it almost makes more sense that he was the one to break her out. The comment could almost be read as "I know you broke the law, snuck into a secure facility with fake clearance, and attacked several people there to get her out, but that doesn't make you a killer." I almost prefer it to read that way, rather than "You paid some people to break you sister out, and that doesn't make you a killer." That's more boring.
Not to say I think the continuity is unmarred; of course it isn't. Nor do I have a problem with nitpicking, I do that a lot. But when it comes to TV, movies, and books, I find it's better to find an explination that works and be forgiving rather than just saying "this is wrong this is wrong this is wrong" over and over. That gets old, believe me. Sometimes there isn't an explination to be had, and that always gets under my skin, but I have no problem viewing this as a very slight error. More like a typo than a major plot hole in my view.

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Thursday, July 13, 2006 8:54 AM

ORMAYBEMIDGETS

Quote:
ormaybemidgets, what he starts to say to her is "find a hiding place."

Are you sure? It really sounds like "find out". Did you get that from the subtitles, or the novel? Or did you hear it somewhere?

Still, though, the fact that he's telling her to do something this important shows that he has at least a little confidence in her. If he thought she was completely screwed up mentally, I don't think he'd put that much in her hands.

Quote:
The novel says she was put in cryo because the ship he had with him had a scan-proof hull and was also a single-seater. I'm not sure this makes absolute sense, but it comes the closest to making sense.

I'm still not going to buy that. I'm not sure what they scan for, but certainly that they'd be scanning for Simon-who's on record for trying to help River; who they just got a thousand pictures of in the Academy, as I'm sure they have security cameras; who's her closest contact who actually wants her out-just as they'd be scanning for River. And single-seater? The ship only had one seat so he put his sister in cryo? I don't think so.

But all this said, it's not something I think about when I watch Serenity (pilot). When River comes out of the box, that's an amazing scene. And she seems kind of surprised to see Simon, which doesn't make complete sense but might, but that's okay. Because I love that part.

Edit: Wait. I'm not really sure I get what "scan-proof hull" means. Scanning is a bad thing, right? And it's scan-proofness makes the ship a good thing? If it's scan-proof, why would River have to be in cryo?
-
DB: Doesn't exactly fit the thug in the profile alley. Wait, what?

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