Firefly's Inspiration by Veteran

OTHER SCIENCE FICTION SERIES

Firefly's Inspiration

POSTED BY: VETERAN
UPDATED: Tuesday, May 6, 2003 11:14
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 4952
PAGE 1 of 1

Tuesday, March 18, 2003 7:37 PM

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Was discussing Firefly with a friend. He said he saw aspects of several science fiction classics in the show. In particular,it reminded him of Robert A. Heinlien's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress." Do you think Joss had this in mind? Besides the historcial references, what else do you think he drew on?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, March 18, 2003 7:47 PM

SERGEANTX

I've seen a lot of Heinlein's influence in Firefly from the beginning. I'm not terrible well read in the genre, but I did read Moon is a Harsh Mistress and see a lot of its libertarian spirit in Malcolm Reynolds. He shares more than a few character traits with Lazarus Long as well.

Apart from that, it'd be hard to deny the parallels with Han Solo, without all the grand saga baggage that comes with the Star Wars series

But it really doesn't matter much to me though. It's the characters that live and breath and actually have real intelligence, albeit in different ways (yes even Jayne) that makes Firefly so special. These characters are so well written you actually want to sit down and talk to them. Ok.. I'm starting to ramble.

SergeantX

"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 19, 2003 6:06 AM

HJERMSTED

I believe visually and thematically Firefly borrows bits and pieces from a 1998 Japanese anime series called Cowboy Bebop. I've never heard Whedon mention this show as an influence so perhaps Bebop has influenced Firefly's art department somehow.

I finally rented volume one of Bebop on DVD. There are five episodes on there and one of the eps has a scene eerily similar to Firefly's Objects in Space scene where Jubal leaves his ship and "floats" down to Serenity. Even the red suit worn by the Bebop character looks similar to Jubal's.

Musically Bebop is all over the place (jazz, japanese pop, etc) but there is a great deal of western style acoustic guitars in space much like Firefly.

And of course Bebop's basic premise is similar... a ragtag group of outlaw/pirate types (in this case bounty hunters) trying to make ends meet in an oppressive multi-planet future. The Bebop crew always seems to have rumbling tummys and manages to lose the big payoff that would solve their financial whoes.

On a different note, Stagecoach is a movie from the 1930s that Whedon often mentions as an influence on the show. Tell me if this sounds familiar: Nine people from different backgrounds traveling through the wilderness on a stagecoach. Included on the coach are a doctor and a whore. The threat of "savages" exists throughout the film and that comes to a head at the end of the picture.

Finally, The Searchers (a 1950s western also named by Joss as having an influence) has as its hero an unapologetic post-Civil War Confederate played by John Wayne. "Savages" play a huge part in this film as well and non-Indian people who have lived among the "savages" are portrayed as having become hopelessly savage themselves (ala The Reavers).

Firefly is certainly a unique creature and it's been a lot of fun piecing together its various influences.

I still haven't read The Killer Angels the Civil War novel that Joss lists as the main influence on Firefly.

mattro

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 19, 2003 6:40 AM

MORLAC

Quote:
Originally posted by Hjermsted:
I believe visually and thematically Firefly borrows bits and pieces from a 1998 Japanese anime series called Cowboy Bebop. I've never heard Whedon mention this show as an influence so perhaps Bebop has influenced Firefly's art department somehow.

mattro

Cowboy Bebop does have some similarities to Firefly. In technology premises for example, space travel is common but it all takes place within one system (our solar system); Earth itself is destroyed/lost; and ordinary guns still dominate as weapons -- though Bebop has a much more modern level of tech throughout, which is definitely a different context.

There are also some character parallels -- nothing very direct, though. I'm thinking more of the way that Bebop characters Jet and Spike are driven by a personal code of honor that is similar to what motivates Malcolm and Zoe. There is also a mystery woman (Faye was woken from cryogenic suspension with no memory of who she once was). And as you say, the day to day struggle for survival looms over everything -- there are whole bebop episodes revolving around the ship running out of food, fuel, etc.

Ultimately, though, I doubt that Bebop had any real influence on Firefly -- IMHO it feels more a case of the two themselves having influences in common and therefore having some parallels themselves.

The other sad parallel would be that there were only about 13 hours (26 half hour episodes) of Bebop produced before the series ended...

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 19, 2003 7:17 AM

LOSTANGEL

an evil, evil thought popped into my head.....

Firefly anime style

Ok, everyone can start now, I'll go first

LA=

______________________
Lost Angel

WASH: Psychic, though? That sounds like something out of science fiction.
ZOE: We live in a space ship, dear.
WASH: So?

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 19, 2003 1:00 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Thanks Hjermstead,

I haven't watched to many episodes of Cowboy Bebop, but your right it's renegades with a ship for hire. I really like the points you brought out about the background musice, that is a real cool aspect about the show (I love Bebop). There's another anime series called Outlaw Star which has a similar theme. The Outlaw Star's navigator (I think her name is Malfe)also arrived frozen in a suitecase

I knew Stage Coach In Space was used to described the show (a lot like the original Star Trek was billed as Hornblower in Space) but I never seen it. There's something to rent so I don't wear out my Firefly discs. The Searcher's? That was a great movie, I guess the Reavers could be the Indians, but John Wayne's character doesn't fear them and you don't get that sense of dread when you know that they're nearby. Were there Comancheros in the Searchers. In all the westerns I've seen with Comancheros they're always portrayed as ruthless and unpredicatable, they seem like a good model for Reavers.

I'm going to look for a copy of Killer Angels if it inspired this show it's got to be a good read.

SergeantX is right though. No matter what inspired them, the characters in Firefly do stand on their own.

Bird Lives. And so does Firefly.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 19, 2003 2:55 PM

BRTICK

I would say they drew their Inspiration from everything from Westerns to comic books to Sci-fi Movies and novels to Anime.

Keep Flying!

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 25, 2003 2:10 AM

KARIGAN

"Killer Angels" is the book that Gettysburg (you know, that long Civil War movie with the glorious soundtrack?) is based off of. "Gods and Generals" is the basis for the movie of the same name that was released this year (my brother was in it! Go reenactors!)

I think the Browncoat story is heavily influenced by the "States Rights" lean on the Confederate states during Civil War. In "Serenity" I saw paralells to the Battle of Gettysburg... movie more, as I haven't read the book, but... Joss's words that Killer Angels inspired parts of Firefly makes even more sense.

Sanity is overrated. Just ask River.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 25, 2003 6:22 AM

CAPTBAGGYTROUSERS

My theory on Firefly's origin is this:

Joss' original vision for Buffy was pretty badly mangled in its theatrical version. I remember when the movie was released how much I wanted to like it and how badly I was disappointed. Only when Joss was at the reins for the TV show did he show us all what he really meant.

He's said in interviews that the liberties taken with his script for Alien Resurrection actually brought him to tears at the film's premier.

In some ways, I think Firefly is what Joss wanted for Alien Resurrection. If you look at the, admittedly harder-edged, cast of rogues from AR you'll see several analogues to the beloved crew of Serenity. It's been a while since I've seen it, but Ron Perlman's tough hombre and Winona Ryder's sensitive mechanic seem like sketches for Jayne and Kaylee. They're not exact matches of course, but I think there is something there he developed for Firefly.

Just a thought.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, May 5, 2003 9:09 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

I remember reading this: The war between the independents and the alliance was based off the civil war, but no slavery issue. For those of you who know about the civil war beyond slavery you know that the south, that being the brown coats in firefly, had the moral high ground (if the intellectual low) with the exception of slavery. The shear stupidity of the war effort of the south was what caused them to lose. That said, despite that stupidity (to find it do some research on the war, the south would have lost no matter what unless they had outside help, which they failed to get.) the south did very, very well.

The same does not seem to show here, as the independents are not shown as trusting that god and the fact that they were gentlemen would save them from superior numbers, firepower, transportation, resources of all kinds and so on. It is shown that they approached the war realistically, but the motive is based off the civil war. (Although Mal is shown to be religious.)

The Revers are based off the Apache (I think) and all of the horrible nasty things they did, but Joss takes it to an extreme and drops out the moral trickiness of the land snatching and genocide that caused the Apaches to be so mean.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, May 5, 2003 10:33 AM

TABITHA

I read the Killer Angels earlier this year. I wouldn't go looking for any deep parallels to Firefly though, it felt to me that for Joss, Killer Angels was a framework for imagining his characters' past. Certainly the all-too-brief flashbacks to the war during Serenity were heavily reminiscent of the book, but there isn't much that follows in the series that has deep roots in the book IMO. The book ends with the war still in full swing, although perhaps much less evenly balanced between the two sides.
I feel that the Feds, and the core Planets in Firefly have been given pretty short shrift so far, we know so little about them, and perhaps a deeper exploration of what life is like for the rest of the galaxy (There is no way Firefly is set in our solar system alone, BTW) might highlight some further parallels between Firefly and The Killer Angels. Having said that - what are the chances? This is a show about life on the Frontier, so there is little real chance of much contact with the centre.

www.ascifi.com

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, May 5, 2003 12:54 PM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

for the record, not meaning to pick a fight, just offering other perspective...

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
The shear stupidity of the war effort of the south was what caused them to lose. That said, despite that stupidity (to find it do some research on the war, the south would have lost no matter what unless they had outside help, which they failed to get.) the south did very, very well.

that they did. holding out against superior forces for four years is no mean feat. i don't know that a people fighting for their way of life would be called stupid, however. misguided and futile--sure. As Mal said, "Fought for the losing side, still not sure it was the wrong one."

(stepping away from the American metaphors for a second--ask anyone of Scottish descent how they feel about Culloden and you'll pretty much get the same response. Scotland's bid for independence didn't have much to do with slavery either.)

Quote:
The Revers are based off the Apache (I think) and all of the horrible nasty things they did, but Joss takes it to an extreme and drops out the moral trickiness of the land snatching and genocide that caused the Apaches to be so mean.

heck, you could pick just about any native tribe that was forced to fight for their own way of life (them as survived the deliberate affliction of smallpox, of course) and you'll find a list of the same atrocities as long as your leg--the Battle at Little Bighorn, formerly known as Custer's Last Stand; case in point. as you say, the genocide was left out, but for all we know, the Reavers could have once been a group of people booted off their own colony because someone thought they needed their land more than they did, promised a prettier, shinier place and ended up getting stuck in the far reaches of space. no wonder they went wacko.

my theory is that JW was trying to create that ominous moment in any formula western when the wagon train is going across the prairie happy as you please until someone looks over and sees smoke trails drifting on the horizon. he used the word "Reavers" like western writers used the word "Injuns." I don't think we would have seen them too often since most folks who saw Injuns/Reavers never saw anyone else again--except for the intrepid crew of Serenity, of course!

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, May 5, 2003 1:35 PM

CAPTBAGGYTROUSERS

I agree that the Reavers are the equivilent of Western movie Indians, not meant to represent actual Native Americans. If there was rhyme, reason or redemption to the Reavers, I think we would have seen seeds of it already. I think they are simply the boogeymen; bad news.

To go any further into the Indians metaphor is a bit too on-the-nose for my tastes. Not to mention too Star Trek, which can strip-mine any villains they create with an overabundance of seeing it their way.

Also, I think the "Browncoats-as-the-Confederacy" angle shouldn't be held onto too tightly. Yes, I think that's the inspiration, but I think a case can just as easily be made for "Browncoats-as-Native-Americans" or any other disenfranchised group that lost their bid for freedom.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 6, 2003 5:23 AM

SAGRILARUS

The Killer Angels is about Gettysburg only (read the book, avoid the movie at all costs), so doesn't provide much of a basis for the here-and-now of Firefly, short of as a history lesson for the Serenity Valley piece.
As for the "confederates had the moral high ground" statement, I'll let that dubious notion blow by as this is not an ACW board (note -- I'm from Maryland, nearly square on the line). What I think you need to look at here is that the poor southern white man who put his life on the line for his homeland was left with little or nothing, disillusioned, and many travelled west to avoid the poverty and martial law of the reconstruction era south (as did many black incidentally). That said, Outlaw Josie Wales is as good or a better parallel than Gettysburg. Any downtrodden group (love the Culloden ref by the way) could fill this bill, but the look and feel of the group is obviously reconstruction. A fascinating period in American history.
Be sure to read The Killer Angels. A good read even for non-CW folks.

J.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 6, 2003 7:07 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptBaggytrousers
Also, I think the "Browncoats-as-the-Confederacy" angle shouldn't be held onto too tightly. Yes, I think that's the inspiration, but I think a case can just as easily be made for "Browncoats-as-Native-Americans" or any other disenfranchised group that lost their bid for freedom.

"Browncoats-as-Jacobites" for instance or "Browncoats-as-anybody-who-resisted-Roman domination." some of the best fiction can often be combed out of the worst history as well as the worst current events.

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 6, 2003 11:14 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Just to clairfy, I'm from Maine, the state furthest north other than alaska, so it's not like I come from some southern "we love the confederates" school, which there are some of. I really take a historical perspective when I say the moral high ground. There were some lows that not even the Nazis stooped to that we (the north) seemed comfortable commiting many times. (never forget that there were many many other lows that the Nazis did stoop to, that go far beyond those.)

If you look at anythings history you find stuff like that, but the truth is that it was the north in the civil war, and those same people belived that they should be alowed economic slavery over the south. None of this seems nice to me. That said you wont see me say things would be beter if the war had gone the other way.

Anyway, the confederacy except slavery, and the apaches except for all semblence of humanity or cause are both examples that JW cited.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

YOUR OPTIONS

SHARE THREAD

NEW POSTS TODAY

USER	POST DATE

USER

POST DATE