Does anyone else like Orson Scott Card? by rita

OTHER SCIENCE FICTION SERIES

Does anyone else like Orson Scott Card?

POSTED BY: RITA
UPDATED: Saturday, March 13, 2004 08:31
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 8856
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Wednesday, December 3, 2003 5:42 AM

I ask because i read a collection of short stories written by himself when i lived in Ireland and was so awed by those works i had to share with any and everybody which of course means i gave the book away. Since this collection was so amazing i really do want to try and get a hold of it again but searching in bookstores hasn't been fruitful and since i can't be specific about the title shopping online hasn't worked out either. So this leads me to beg of you whe frequent this website (this site, email and occasional earthy crunchy online sites are all i know how to acess-i'm an idiot I confess) to share any knowledge you may have on this subject. Thanks in advance

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Wednesday, December 3, 2003 5:53 AM

SPACEANGLER

Everything he wrote besides the Ender series is crap. But Ender's alright.

--------------------------------------------
"Can he, you know, chase us? Because I know if I woke up looking like that, I'd just run towards the nearest living thing, and then kill it." ~Aqua Teen Hunger Force

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Wednesday, December 3, 2003 5:54 AM

HJERMSTED

Mr. Card's official website is: http://www.hatrack.com/

There is a bibliography there.

I highly recommend:
Treason -- my favorite of Card's stand alone novels.
Seventh Son and the rest of the Alvin Maker series.
Ender's Game and the rest of the Ender series.

Enjoy!

mattro

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Wednesday, December 3, 2003 8:08 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Agreed, Treason wasn't all that bad... strange, but not necessarily bad.

Enders Game rocked, and then started the immediate downhill slide of sequelization.

Card is an overrated one-hit-wonder, in my opinion, but that's the great thing about sci-fi writing, you don't have to please everyone.

I am more of a Drake/Pournelle/Niven kinda guy, so Card wouldn't interest me so much anyhows.

-frem
diefuxdie

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Wednesday, December 3, 2003 9:31 AM

SOUTHERNMERC

Card is a decent writer. He held my interest with "To the Vanishing Point" not so much with the science fiction of it, but with the notions he brought up in the book about parallel dimension travel (going to another world by hitting I-40? funny stuff).

I like Niven more, and Heinlein as well. Piers Anthony is fun, but got repetitive with his last several books. Timothy Zahn is quite enjoyable as well. Pournelle, yup good'un there.

Jayne: "How big a room?"

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 9:51 AM

KNIBBLET

I enjoy OSC's writings - particularly anything to do with Ender - and try to ignore that he's a bigoted homophobe.

Truly, the man needs a cranialanalremoval.

http://www.nauvoo.com/library/hypocrites-osc.html

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 10:19 AM

LEEH

Quote:
Originally posted by rita:
I ask because i read a collection of short stories written by himself when i lived in Ireland and was so awed by those works i had to share with any and everybody which of course means i gave the book away. Since this collection was so amazing i really do want to try and get a hold of it again but searching in bookstores hasn't been fruitful and since i can't be specific about the title shopping online hasn't worked out either. So this leads me to beg of you whe frequent this website (this site, email and occasional earthy crunchy online sites are all i know how to acess-i'm an idiot I confess) to share any knowledge you may have on this subject. Thanks in advance

He wrote a lovely early collection called "Songmaster," I think (or "Song" something). and of course "Ender's Game" is quite possibly my second favorite piece of 20th century fiction (after LOTR). I'm not wild about the more recent stuff. . . .

"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle. . . ."

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 11:55 AM

JASONZZZ

The "Ender" movies are supposedly getting made. They wanted to film the movies for all the Enders together so that they can get the kid actors all in the same period.

Like Fireflyfans.net?
Haken needs a new development system. Donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 11:58 AM

SHINY

Enders Game rocked. The rest of the Enders series was pretty much trying to live off the reflected glory of the first...

RIVER
Purple elephants are flying.
MAL
Good. Thanks for the update.

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Friday, February 13, 2004 9:29 PM

MRGREEN

Ender's Game was indeed an awesome book... The bashing of the rest of the series is unwarrented, imho. Sure, it wasn't Ender's Game. It wasn't even as good, in a different way.

I was different, though. If you think of the sequels as a trilogy, and Ender's Game as a stand alone book, set in the same universe and with some of the same characters, then I think it holds up pretty well on its own.

The Ender's Shadow series however, was basically rubbish. They were fairly well written, but extremely thin in plot. I mean, Bean's story was pretty weak when you compare it to the complexity of Ender's, and the rest of it was kinda preposterous and silly, if you ask me. Which no one did, but then again, I'm not making you read this! (Ya, it's late, I'm tired).

Heh, I was about to ask about the 'bigotted homophobe' remark, but I RTFA (Read The Freaking Article, as we would say on www.fark.com) you linked, and don't have to now...

-Rob

If you can't run, you crawl, and if you can't crawl, well, if you can't do that, you find someone to carry you.

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Friday, February 13, 2004 9:55 PM

DRAGONFLYDIRECTOR

Try "Songmaster", it too is unique.

I never really got the homophobe vibe from him when he was around my 'obviously' gay friends. But his LDS affilation should have been a clue. He never acted on his religous beliefs in the convention circuit, that I know of. I tend to dislike those who publicly thrash others, either verbally or physically. Card advocates neither type of unreasoning attack.

may I quote :

Quote:
The hypocrites of homosexuality are, of course, already preparing to answer these statements by accusing me of homophobia, gay-bashing, bigotry, intolerance; but nothing that I have said here -- and nothing that has been said by any of the prophets or any of the Church leaders who have dealt with this issue -- can be construed as advocating, encouraging, or even allowing harsh personal treatment of individuals who are unable to resist the temptation to have sexual relations with persons of the same sex. On the contrary, the teachings of the Lord are clear in regard to the way we must deal with sinners. Christ treated them with compassion -- as long as they confessed that their sin was a sin. Only when they attempted to pretend that their sin was righteousness did he harshly name them for what they were: fools, hypocrites, sinners. Hypocrites because they were unwilling to change their behavior and instead attempted to change the law to fit it; fools because they thought that deceiving an easily deceivable society would achieve the impossible goal of also deceiving God.

There ya go, a product of his faith and choice of Church. Still a damn fine author and does intresting character studies. Nuff said! Dong ma.

I met the man at InConjunction 4 in '84(I think) ... not in the usual way of booksigning 'tho... We talked a lot about 'A Planet Called Treason'.

His 'Memory of Earth' series is fantastic!

His "The Abyss" novelization is spectacular in my opinion.

But its all a matter of relative perspective.

I am sure that any of you could list a book, movie or TV show that I would consider total crap.

"Observe Analyze & Respond"
Motto of the A.P.E.s
Alliance Protean Engineers

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Friday, February 13, 2004 11:27 PM

AERRIN

Quote:
Originally posted by mrgreen:

The Ender's Shadow series however, was basically rubbish. They were fairly well written, but extremely thin in plot. I mean, Bean's story was pretty weak when you compare it to the complexity of Ender's, and the rest of it was kinda preposterous and silly, if you ask me.

Gasp! Oh, you wound me! ;)

Ok, it's quite late for me and I'm being a bit silly, but I just felt that I needed to put in a few good words for the Ender's Shadow books, which I absolutely love beyond words. Seriously. Beyond words.

I love Ender's Game, and I love Ender's Story - it particularly resonated with me when I first read it, in junior high, for a variety of reasons. For the record, I've never been a big fan of Speaker for the Dead, et al.

The rest of the story, however, particularly once you get to Shadow of the Hegemon and Shadow Puppets, is, in my opinion, riveting. I think the politics are complex, interesting, and believable, and I just adore finding out the details of what are minor big events (how's that for an oxymoron?) in Ender's Game and Speaker. I think it's amazing that he's addressing what happened to those Battle School kids, what failings in humanity might make them take advantage of them, how the kids struggle with adjusting to a life that doesn't fit them anymore and a society that doesn't know what to do with them and loyalties that are unclear, and how a sadistic kid from smalltown USA took a figurehead position and not only claimed it, but turned it into an instrument through which he created world peace.

Damn interesting story, to me. Definitely 'complex'.

So. That's /my/ Card shout out. I'm also quite fond of a few of his stand alones - Pastwatch being the first that comes to mind.

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Saturday, February 14, 2004 12:13 AM

SERENA

Thanks for the website.
I was blown away by Ender's Game.
Then read everything I could find that OSC had written. I enjoyed it all to some degree.
I enjoyed the rest of the Ender series because I always want to know what happens afterwards.

"Every well bred, petty crook knows that the small, concealable weapons always go to the far left of the place setting."

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Saturday, February 14, 2004 6:11 AM

PALEHORSE

WARNING: VITRIOLIC POSTING AHEAD

Try to introduce the concepts of philosophy and current global politics if you want to be nailed to a cross. That just might become my motto.

India and Pakistan are in the deepest peace talks in their history.

The U.S. has lost a lot of our peaceful clout, and our economy cannot support a sustained presence without foreign money.

The stigma of AIDS("my god don't touch me") is the stigma of the Piggies.

Do yourself a favor and read a newspaper someday, or pick up a book without a space ship or sword on it's cover for a change.

What is it with you Human Beings? It's because of unthinking sheep like you that Firefly was canceled.

There were prodigies and portents enough, One-Eye says. We must blame ourselves for misinterpreting them. One-Eye's handicap in no way impairs his marvelous hindsight.

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Saturday, February 14, 2004 9:04 AM

SERENA

HUH?

"Every well bred, petty crook knows that the small, concealable weapons always go to the far left of the place setting."

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Saturday, February 14, 2004 9:59 AM

DRAGONFLYDIRECTOR

Palehorse
I actually agree with your post ...

But to echo Serena... HUH?!

You haven't posted to this particular thread and I may have missed any of your other posts on this site.

I am a bit confused as to basis of your rather vitupertious post on this very thread.

With no informational preamble, you depress the plunger and: BOOOOM! -- "Earthquakes, fires, dogs and cats living together ... Mass hysteria!" {- paraphrased from Peter Venkman, Ghostbuster -}

Palehorse: A little 'flashback' info so we may understand your '... VITRIOLIC POSTING ...'.

Thanks!

"Observe Analyze & Respond"
Motto of the A.P.E.s
Alliance Protean Engineers

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Monday, February 16, 2004 8:09 AM

PALEHORSE

Ok. I'm a little put out by the slamming O.S.Card has recieved on this thread. The man has certainly done more for giving SF respectability than Piers Anthony(exception Perlandra).Though I enjoyed them, the Xanth books, with silly names and covers,only enriched the stigma of SF to the uninnitiated.

The reason for my dreadful release of anger is simply that a respected thinker outside of his writing was beeing slammed as basicly a HACK.

If we don't wish to look beyond the veneer of a book, T.V. show, or painting we lose the ability to see them as art forms and buy into the idea of superficiality and commercialism which spawned the reality show movement.

Examples:

Spaceangler Said:
Everything he wrote besides the Ender series is crap. But Ender's alright

Fremdfirma Said:
Enders Game rocked, and then started the immediate downhill slide of sequelization.
Card is an overrated one-hit-wonder, in my opinion, but that's the great thing about sci-fi writing, you don't have to please everyone

Shiny Said:
The rest of the Enders series was pretty much trying to live off the reflected glory of the first...

Mrgreen Said:
The Ender's Shadow series however, was basically rubbish. They were fairly well written, but extremely thin in plot. I mean, Bean's story was pretty weak when you compare it to the complexity of Ender's, and the rest of it was kinda preposterous and silly, if you ask me.

There were prodigies and portents enough, One-Eye says. We must blame ourselves for misinterpreting them. One-Eye's handicap in no way impairs his marvelous hindsight.

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Monday, February 16, 2004 9:05 AM

SHINY

Quote:
Originally posted by palehorse:
If we don't wish to look beyond the veneer of a book, T.V. show, or painting we lose the ability to see them as art forms and buy into the idea of superficiality and commercialism which spawned the reality show movement.

Hmm...so we don't like OSC's other books as much as you do, and therefore we are as dumb as Fox execs, is that your basic argument? I would argue that 'superficiality and commercialism' applies better to an artist/writer/director/etc creating a bunch of lesser sequels after a 'hit', but I don't suppose I'm entitled to an opinion, since it differs from yours. Guess I'll go watch some reality television and stop bothering you enlightened souls with my blathering.

RIVER
Purple elephants are flying.
MAL
Good. Thanks for the update.

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Monday, February 16, 2004 9:22 AM

KNIBBLET

I thought the Memory of Earth series was wonderful. Not wanting to go into it (due to being at work and wanting to make my boss money) any deeper than saying, "I like the way he gets into people's heads. Even if he is writing those people."

I try to remember something he said about the differences between the way we treat/judge adults and teenagers and keep it in mind when dealing with neices and nephews:

The younger brother is watching his older brother take a cold shower. The older is jumping around and acting silly. The younger makes a mental comment about how anyone seeing this would find it "charming and child-like" while if he, himself were seen acting this way, they'd tell him to "stop acting childish".

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

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Monday, February 16, 2004 9:57 AM

SWIZZLEPITS

What is the difference between "Treason" and "Planet Called Treason"?

- scott

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Monday, February 16, 2004 10:06 AM

DRAGONFLYDIRECTOR

OK, Thanks. I understand now.

Remember this, I myself tried to show the other perspective.

This may help since no one has asked this till now ...

What HAVE you read by OSC?

Capn Rahn's list {incomplete} :
A Planet Called Treason
Songmaster
The Abyss
Return to Earth Series
Lost Boys
Lovelock
Ender Series
Wyrms
Pastwatch
The Changed Man
Maps in A Mirror

OK, my novel and short story list is incomplete, but a good start.

Now- What have YOU read of OSC stuff? {even his various monographs}

Then we can compare our differing perspectives.

EDIT

Quote:
by SwizzlePits
What is the difference between "Treason" and "Planet Called Treason"?

Nothing really, the first several printings were "A Planet Called Treason" then the most recent printings title was shortened to just "Treason".

A publishing ploy that has cropped up in the past several years. A ploy that seems to save any legal hassles with the original publisher. Weird stuff, publication rights.

Actually Knibblet would seem to know more about legalities than I.

"Observe Analyze & Respond"
Motto of the A.P.E.s
Alliance Protean Engineers

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Monday, February 16, 2004 10:21 AM

PALEHORSE

Shiny, and anyone else offended by my comments, I appologize for the tone of my statements. I am not trying to say that your oppinion is invalid, I'm just trying to refute the claim that the Bean books were "trying to live off the reflected glory of the first..." Ender book.

I'm sure there are reasons for your dislike, but I am wondering whether you have looked at the Bean books in this light.

If one ignores current events, these books could be viewed as a slightly sentimental tale of three self pitying boys and one over accomodating girl.

If one ignores history blended with current events, Firefly could be viewed as wittily written fluff, with a little sexual tension thrown in for mass market appeal.

What made sci-fi a relevant forum in the first place is the same thing that makes great sci-fi today. Analogy.

Don't fool yourself, Firefly was written as a charachter study wherein a crew tackles current day issues crouched as "space-western" back ground.

-Bean himself is a study in the benefits/hazards of genetic experimentation.
-Sister Carlotta addresses the Chuch's revised stance on original sin
-In a world with the inability to use nukes(due to threat from above)the Battle School graduates represent nuclear prolifferation.
-India and Pakistan are both nuclear powers today, they are in promising peace talks today
-India features the greatest population growth with the greatest need for outside food sources
-The US is incredibly reliant upon manufacturing trade with China right now, with this reliance being non-reciprocal.
-In order to offset our reliance with China US companies are throwing money at India in the form of offshore employment( just call customer support for tech assist after normal bis hours to see what I mean)
-With these contracts in place the US is somewhat safe, as it would be a stike at India's economy for China to wage war on us, and a strike to China's for India to do so
-The death rate in America now exceedes the birth rate, while we also hold the greatest food production. These factors would make us the greatest target in the next 25-50 years(population controls internationally being what they are)
-The US economy cannot support a sustained military presence without foreign governments paying us. And we have burned many foreign relations bridges throughout our history.

I think Card did a good job of showing a more than possible future, that's all.

There were prodigies and portents enough, One-Eye says. We must blame ourselves for misinterpreting them. One-Eye's handicap in no way impairs his marvelous hindsight.

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Monday, February 16, 2004 10:37 AM

ARCPLAYER

I liked Enders Game and the alternate history of the
US in the Alvin series. Haven't read much else of his.

Shindig is playing while I post this.

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Monday, February 16, 2004 11:15 AM

HJERMSTED

Somehow O.S. Card the sci-fi and fantasy writer and O.S. Card the every day person are two halves of a split personality.

I never feel overly preached down to when reading Card's books nor do I get even a whisp of conservative politics... quite the opposite in fact. I find progressive and libertarian philosophies in most of his works.

However... when I visit O.S. Card's website ( http://www.hatrack.com/) I feel as if someone turned on an AM radio opinion show and that Rush Limbaugh is behind Card whispering in his ear. His politics are that conservative. It's the typical family-values mantra... make the world safe for five year olds kinda stuff with no consideration that adults need to lead adult lives. Also there is some of that no change is good change junk posted there.

But I've learned to differentiate between Card the innovative writer and Card the PTA member though and still look foreward to his new books.

In fact, I just finished the newest Alvin Maker book The Crystal City. Aside from the revelation at the end that the Crystal City we've been hearing about since early on in the series is going to be referred to as a tabernacle... It was a great book!

RE: Treason and A Planet Called Treason...

Treason is the updated version I do believe. Card wrote A Planet Called Treason when he was young and spiffed it up for re-release after Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead won all those awards.

mattro

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Monday, February 16, 2004 11:30 AM

KNIBBLET

Quote:
Originally posted by DragonFlyDirector:
Quote:
by SwizzlePits
What is the difference between "Treason" and "Planet Called Treason"?
Nothing really, the first several printings were "A Planet Called Treason" then the most recent printings title was shortened to just "Treason".

A publishing ploy that has cropped up in the past several years. A ploy that seems to save any legal hassles with the original publisher. Weird stuff, publication rights.

Actually Knibblet would seem to know more about legalities than I

They do like to mess with stuffs. I didn't study enough about that to pontificate. I do know that my aunt lost the rights to her name for 10 years when she left Regency Romances to write for Silhouette. She got it back three years ago and Nina Pykare is published under her own name again.
Logic would tell us that changing the name slightly protects the original publisher's rights to the first name (if they have no intention of reprinting the book) while allowing them to sell the reprinting rights and earning cash that way.

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

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Monday, February 16, 2004 11:56 AM

DRAGONFLYDIRECTOR

Thanks Knibblet!

"Observe Analyze & Respond"
Motto of the A.P.E.s
Alliance Protean Engineers

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Monday, February 16, 2004 1:51 PM

PALEHORSE

Quote:
Originally posted by arcplayer:
I liked Enders Game and the alternate history of the
US in the Alvin series. Haven't read much else of his.

Shindig is playing while I post this.

Just remember that he wrote "2001:..."

The other Ender books are philosophic studies of the human race's view of the things we don't understand and the effects of genocide. Don't get me wrong, they can still be enjoyable. As you've seen, some like them and some do not.

The Shadow books, I think are great fun and have a lot of references to the world we know.

"Enchantment" is a cool treatment of the Sleeping Beauty tale, returning it to the russian root with Baba Yaga thrown in for good measure. I thought it was a hoot.

There were prodigies and portents enough, One-Eye says. We must blame ourselves for misinterpreting them. One-Eye's handicap in no way impairs his marvelous hindsight.

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Monday, February 16, 2004 1:57 PM

PALEHORSE

OOOPS!

Arthur C Clarcke : "2001:..."

I'm a goof.

There were prodigies and portents enough, One-Eye says. We must blame ourselves for misinterpreting them. One-Eye's handicap in no way impairs his marvelous hindsight.

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Monday, February 16, 2004 2:20 PM

SERENA

Quote:
Originally posted by Hjermsted:
Somehow O.S. Card the sci-fi and fantasy writer and O.S. Card the every day person are two halves of a split personality.
...
However... when I visit O.S. Card's website ... His politics are that conservative. It's the typical family-values mantra...

I think you'll find OSC's values reflect the fact that he is a card carrying Mormon, which is amazing considering I have rarely found explicit evidence of the philosophies of that religion in his writing.

"Every well bred, petty crook knows that the small, concealable weapons always go to the far left of the place setting."

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Tuesday, March 2, 2004 8:49 PM

DJKILLJ0Y

Yes indeed, it is also bit interesting to note that he has written religiously themed novels as well about biblical characters.

Overall, I think he's a developed "working" writer who creates the occasional work of sheer genius. A bit like Ray Bradbury, in my opinion, though I find I can dive into a Bradbury book and usually not come away disappointed.

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Tuesday, March 2, 2004 9:15 PM

PARADIGMSHIFT

Ender's Game is one of my favorite books of al times. I really haven't been a huge fan of any of his other works, but that one book makes up for a multitude of mediocre things.

-Paradigm Shift

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Wednesday, March 3, 2004 2:36 AM

MARINOMOANA

Kia Ora Rita,
I love Orson Scott Card's work. There is an offical site its at: http://www.hatrack.com/
There is also a online store Hatrack River store, where you can order all of Card's books and articles.

Hope you enjoy going to the site. There are also quite a few fun clubs.

Cheers,
Marinomoana

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Thursday, March 11, 2004 2:13 PM

SCIFIDO

OSC is one of my faves. I have read most of the work mentioned in the posts above and have always enjoyed them.

One book in particular I have not seen mentioned here is Past Watch Redemption. This is an interesting book with socially leftist leanings.

I think OSC should not be pigeon holed, he is indeed a complex thinker with more depth than many actively writing SF today.

And back to you...

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

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Saturday, March 13, 2004 6:05 AM

DARKJESTER

I agree with SciFido - Pastwatch was a great "what if...." story, well thought out and well-written.
I remember reading a collection of OSC's short fiction (can't recall the title) and his saying in the preface that he felt that science fiction was the best way (at least for him) to examine Man's relationship to God. I found this to be rather profound and unexpected, but I think I see where he was coming from.
And I admire how, in his writing, he can take a character with whom in real life he would vehemently disagree as to actions and ethics, and make them well-rounded individuals, instead of shallow plot-movers. Especially when you take into account his strong religious convictions.
As as far as to his being a, I believe the phrase was "bigoted homophobe", I strongly disagree. He sees homosexuality as being wrong, and a sin. He is not suggesting that we need an anti-gay pogrom.
I think he's wrong in his beliefs (I believe my sister is a lesbian because of genetics) but I respect his beliefs. And I respect his writing.

MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."

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Saturday, March 13, 2004 6:33 AM

JEBBYPAL

I think it is probably unfair to judge the entire Ender series by the same stick. Ender's Game was originally written in a very conflicted time and addressed the issue of underage people in war. At the time of Vietnam there were multiple other wars around the war in which child soldiers were beginning to be used and the effects had just begun to be judged. The idea that all nations would one day use child soldiers for different reasons, well, I think he took this idea and then expanded on it.

The rest of the "original" series expanded on this vein at looking at the reintegration of the children into society while also examining the effects of war on society - those that perpetrated genocide and the society that was destroyed.

As to the extensions of the series, I think it was probably a good vehicle with which he could address current events while at the same time being sure of his audience.

I think my only criticism of him as a writer is that I've never been impressed with his ability to write from a female perspective. It always seems somewhat contrived even in his recent novels to me. That being said, the man definitely knows his way around his characters and his plots. And I bet there are more than a few people out there that would never know who Locke and crap, can't remember the name well the other one the other sibling wrote as, were if it weren't for these novels.

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Saturday, March 13, 2004 7:55 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

If anyone is interested the last I heard about the Ender's Game movie was in one of his books on writing. He said it wouldn't happen because the would-be producers insisted Ender be played by a teen.

I always liked the Alvin Maker ones though I have yet to get the most recent.

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Saturday, March 13, 2004 8:31 AM

SCIFIDO

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
If anyone is interested the last I heard about the Ender's Game movie was in one of his books on writing. He said it wouldn't happen because the would-be producers insisted Ender be played by a teen.

---------------

Actually, OSC's website indicates the movie is a go. The writing team of the X-Men in currently working on the script.

Check it out here: http://www.frescopictures.com/movies/ender/endersgame_update.html

Ender's Game is definitely on my can't wait to see list, with Serenity as my #1!

OK, But what's the speed of dark?

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