Latest BSG Episode (3/25/07) by jpstargazer

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Latest BSG Episode (3/25/07)

POSTED BY: JPSTARGAZER
UPDATED: Thursday, March 29, 2007 20:53
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Tuesday, March 27, 2007 7:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dietcoke:
Ron Moore said in an interview that they are in fact Cylons.

Quote:
Originally posted by dietcoke:
It's true they deliberately threw us off so you really can't trust the guy. He hasn't done a commentary for the episode yet. Normally he puts it right up.

Ok, please somebody link me. *pleads* or is this on the Skiffy BSG forum?

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
I guess we'll just have to wait until January '08.

Yikes, I hate waiting.

From here to the eyes and the ears of the 'Verse!
http://www.geocities.com/browncoatsignalcorps/index.htm

www.goodworkspresents.org

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Tuesday, March 27, 2007 8:30 AM

SHINYLIBRARIAN

Here are links to a couple of interviews that Ron Moore gave yesterday, referencing the four-who-are-probably-Cylons-darn-it and other interesting things.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07085/770732-352.stm

http://www.tvweek.com/article.cms?articleId=31699

Enjoy!

ShinyLibrarian

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Tuesday, March 27, 2007 9:07 AM

FOLLOWMAL

Quote:
Originally posted by ShinyLibrarian:
Here are links to a couple of interviews that Ron Moore gave yesterday, referencing the four-who-are-probably-Cylons-darn-it and other interesting things.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07085/770732-352.stm

http://www.tvweek.com/article.cms?articleId=31699

Enjoy!

ShinyLibrarian

Thank you so much!

From here to the eyes and the ears of the 'Verse!
http://www.geocities.com/browncoatsignalcorps/index.htm

www.goodworkspresents.org

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Tuesday, March 27, 2007 10:06 AM

SHINYLIBRARIAN

You're welcome!

ShinyLibrarian

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Tuesday, March 27, 2007 1:02 PM

ARCADIA

There's a link to a salon.com interview with RDM in one of my above posts, thought that interview focuses more on the creative process and less on the season finale.

Earlier today (yesterday?) he answered 20 fan questions on the scifi boards: http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2270103

Arcadia (aka Greyfable and/or Katie)
www.stillflying.net -- picking up Firefly were Joss left off. We will hold 'til he gets back.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2007 1:14 PM

FOLLOWMAL

Thank you Arcadia... I can't stop reading about this show now that I've been so thoroughly captured by this finale.

I'll check out the salon interview too.
Thanks!

From here to the eyes and the ears of the 'Verse!
http://www.geocities.com/browncoatsignalcorps/index.htm

www.goodworkspresents.org

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Wednesday, March 28, 2007 2:59 AM

CAUSAL

Quote:
Originally posted by ShinyLibrarian:
...the four-who-are-probably-Cylons-darn-it...

I'm not saying they aren't Cylons. I'm just saying that we don't know conclusively that they are. Know. Conclusively. That's all.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

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Wednesday, March 28, 2007 5:30 AM

DANFAN

I tend to think that the Four are Cylons for the following reasons:

1) The writer of a show may well misdirect his viewers by presenting them with information in an ambiguous fashion that lures the viewers into misinterpretation. This is done all the time by the writers of shows... it is considered "fair" by the viewers.

2) If the writers explicitly tell the viewers something in the story (from the mouth of a character who is "speaking truthfully" at the time), and that something is not true, then they've lied to their audience. This is "not fair." It alienates the viewers. Even if the writer claims that the character believed it at the time... the writer has broken trust with his viewers.

3) The Four explicitly presented themselves as Cylons. They believed it at the time they said it. They weren't trying to deceive anyone within the story with the statement.

4) So, if the writer is being "fair" with his viewers, the Four are Cylons.

If the writer is NOT being fair with his viewers, then the Four could be the Horsemen of the Apocalypse. And the writer's audience could decide to watch another show once they realize that they've been lied to. Not many (competent) writers would take that risk. And these guys seem VERY competent to me.

Just my opinions. They are not legal tender. They are not redeemable for coffee.

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Wednesday, March 28, 2007 6:41 AM

CAUSAL

*stretches philosopher muscles*

Quote:
Originally posted by danfan:
I tend to think that the Four are Cylons for the following reasons:

1) The writer of a show may well misdirect his viewers by presenting them with information in an ambiguous fashion that lures the viewers into misinterpretation. This is done all the time by the writers of shows... it is considered "fair" by the viewers.

This doesn't present any evidence for the Cylon Thesis. It merely reiterates a point that has already been made by others in the thread previously, so it doesn't provide any support at all: you're only saying, "Yes, writers misdirect." But this has no logical connection to the point under consideration (and when I say "logical" I mean it in the philosophical sense). Misdirection doesn't entail evidence for the Cylon Thesis.

Quote:
2) If the writers explicitly tell the viewers something in the story (from the mouth of a character who is "speaking truthfully" at the time), and that something is not true, then they've lied to their audience. This is "not fair." It alienates the viewers. Even if the writer claims that the character believed it at the time... the writer has broken trust with his viewers.

Again, this is irrelevant to the Cylon thesis. Chief Tyrol may really believe in his heart of hearts that he is a Cylon, and he may also be wrong. This "fair/not-fair" thing is a Red Herring which really only serves to cloud the issue of what evidence there really is. As for the issue of "lying" to one's audience, consider The Sixth Sense. Shamalan presented Bruce Willis' character a certain way throughout the movie--then at the end there's this huge reveal, and we found out we were mistaken. Effectively, he "lied" to us (according to your schema as laid out above). Did that alienate audiences? Hell, no! They flocked to the movie, because it was great story telling. Similarly, we haven't been told that these guys are Cylons explicitly. What we've been told is that they think that they're Cylons; that might seem like needless hair-splitting, but it remains true. They haven't been explicitly shown to be Cylons--the language for this in BSG seems to be the reveal of multiple copies, or self-admission from one who already knows. We've had no reveal of multiple copies, and these guys don't have prior knowledge. They merely experienced a phenomenon and took it to mean something. They could be wrong.

Quote:
3) The Four explicitly presented themselves as Cylons. They believed it at the time they said it. They weren't trying to deceive anyone within the story with the statement.

No, they didn't. They explicitly voiced a conclusion they reached based on exaclty two pieces of evidence: they all heard the same song, and they were all drawn to the same room. Now, the only explanation they could come up with (and, apparently, the only explanation most of us can come up with) is that this means that these guys are Cylons. But that conclusion isn't warranted by the premises. In order to make it follow logically, you'd have to add something like "Any group of people who all experience the same phenomenon are Cylons"--and then it might follow. But then there'd be problems because Athena, Caprica 6 and Roslin all had the same vision, but Roslin didn't hear the music, and isn't being considered a candidate like the other four. Maybe "all being drawn to the same location" would suffice, but then again, we have no reason to suspect that that proposition is correct, and so we can't really use it in a logical argument.

Quote:
4) So, if the writer is being "fair" with his viewers, the Four are Cylons. If the writer is NOT being fair with his viewers, then the Four could be the Horsemen of the Apocalypse. And the writer's audience could decide to watch another show once they realize that they've been lied to. Not many (competent) writers would take that risk. And these guys seem VERY competent to me.

Once again, the fair/not-fair thing is a Red Herring that adds absolutely nothing to the discussion of whether the evidence we've been presented in the show warrants the conclusion that the four are Cylons. My contention is that it does not. If you'd like to challenge that assertion, be my guest. But the fair/un-fair issue is utterly irrelevant. The writers are not bound to this rule, and so it can't be used in an evidentiary fashion. Besides, there was supposed to be a storyline involving the Sagitarrons that was utterly scrapped--at the expense of the quality of some of the mid-season episodes, which were quite weak. Now, I'd say that fits your definition of "unfair," so you can't even rely on the (tacit) assumption that Ron Moore and co. will be "fair." Besides, didn't anyone ever tell you that life isn't fair?

That was a staple phrase of my childhood. Besides, I would dispute that your conception of fair is even a valid concept to use in the way you seem to be using it.

Quote:
Just my opinions. They are not legal tender. They are not redeemable for coffee.

Oh, heck.

I could use a little caffiene.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

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Wednesday, March 28, 2007 9:55 AM

DANFAN

I suppose I could try to respond point by point to your response to my thesis. Then you could respond point by point. Then I could respond point by point.

Then I get fired by my boss for doing all this on his nickel. I dread the conversation that would follow with my wife...

So I'll cheat... in an interview (linked to by this thread), Moore said they were Cylons.

You could argue that he is lying in that interview. You could claim that this is only what he believes now and he could change his mind at some future time in the story line. You could claim that we are all standing in a cave gazing upon our shadows on the back wall.

But for now, I'll let Moore carry my water for me.

;-)

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Wednesday, March 28, 2007 2:54 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

Maybe they are Cylons... but not Cylons

While I was thinking of what these five have in common ( my STD theory )

It also occured to me that all of them were on New Caprica. All under Cylon control. All of interest to the Cylons in that these people were in positions to observe and influence others.

Notice when the cylons decided to have a mass execution to put down the resistance, none of these people whom you would think might be immediate suspects.... made the death list.

What if the Cylons developed the ability to create or modify themselves to look like others. Release these people in key positions to learn things of interest, and turned loose.

The behavior they showed was not unlike that of Sharon in the first season while she was still a sleeper.

Perhaps the Kara we watched die, was a skin job... struggling with some type of memory graft

Perhaps the music is the nebula interfering with the Cylon part of their makeup.

If so, what of the Kara in the shiny new viper ?

and the women who led Baltar away ?

could those really be the five,

and the rest poser skinjob cylons ?

Will Tigh come back with both eyes, abd Bill having to explain what happened to his wife

but I want to know now

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Wednesday, March 28, 2007 2:59 PM

CAUSAL

Yeah; the thing is, if the four are really four of the final five, they have to be replacements. It stands to reason that Saul Tigh couldn't possibly have been a Cylon all along; they didn't even develop the ability to look like humans until after the first Cylon war. So either these aren't truly the part of the final five, or they're replacements of the real Saul, Sam, Galen, and Tori.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

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Wednesday, March 28, 2007 3:03 PM

CAUSAL

Quote:
Originally posted by danfan:
You could claim that we are all standing in a cave gazing upon our shadows on the back wall.

Ah, ah; not our shadows, but shadows of cut-outs of animals, trees, people and the like. If you're going to insult me using Plato, get it straight!

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Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

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Wednesday, March 28, 2007 3:45 PM

PEULSAR5

We sniff the air, we don't kiss the dirt.

I couldn't watch it till Monday night, and I spent the last 20 min of the show with my frakking jaw on the floor. As soon as the ending credits started a friend called and all we could do was make incomprehensible noises and say HOLY F%#@*^} SH@#!! to each other.

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Wednesday, March 28, 2007 3:48 PM

CAUSAL

That about sums up my reaction.

Then I get to come on here and fight with you fine folks!

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Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

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Thursday, March 29, 2007 11:27 AM

DANFAN

Causal

I apologize for the insult. I was nettled at the time I posted.

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Thursday, March 29, 2007 2:05 PM

CAUSAL

Sorry about the being nettled thing. I need to remember that most people aren't used the style of philosophical debate that I am (given it's my major). Most folks just feel personally attacked (which I assure you, I was not doing!). Instead, I was just pointing out that we don't know with certainty. Heck, it could bery well turn out that they are. But after the twists and turns already taken in the series thus far, I'm not ready to take it at face value, interviews notwithstanding.

No hard feelings, I hope.

________________________________________________________________________
- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

Vote for Firefly! http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/index.html

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Thursday, March 29, 2007 8:53 PM

SHAMELESS

Ohhhh, man. She's alive! She's alive! EEEEEEEHEHEHEHEHEEE!

Well, I'll say tons more later, but I needs me some sleep.

In the meantime:

This is why I love this community. Good discussion, cool-tempered debate (or silly debate, take your pick), and if somebody's accidentally offended, is there flaming? No gorram way! Just fixin' that misunderstanding and an apology for unintended perceptions.

I bein' a browncoat.

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