Boycott ENTERPRISE .. it's just that bad. by Ghoulman

Terrific posts. I've seen a few shows this season and as you can see I was horrified by the "islamic suicide bombers' episode that demonstrated that old moral... crazy people should be killed? Uuuummmm no. So I watched a few more. The show is just as slick and expensive looking as ever and is still having trouble remembering what happened from Act I to Act II. Really, I've seen comic books with more insight... even Marvel comic books!

BTW; just entertainment is, if you want to know, propoganda by default. That is, since the story is hollow anyway then there is nothing left but it's intrinsic message. Whatever that message is.

Save the world from the tyrany of 'entertainment'!

Anyho', if the current seasons mission into Iraq (Xindi space) for whatever reason (the reasons given were, frankly, bullshit writing... as usual) and then it all changed the minute the Iraqi Council was introduced. Now, I'm hardly the only one to have noticed the Bush/ENT connection. Remember the times you live in Bucky, the propoganda is thick.

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 9:03 AM

... oh and I don't want to sound like I'm dumping on those who say 'it's improving' but FRELL! ... do you normally wait through years of crap to get to the good? Has any good come yet? Will it?

Honestly. What sort of bizarre logic is that?

And for the love of mudville ... realize that this sort of TV (on various levels) keeps shows like Firefly off the air. After all... if the viewing SciFi fans will accept such rubbish than why the frell would a network pay for a high class production like Firefly? Or Angel? Or... are ya seeing a pattern here boys and girls?

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 9:16 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I'd boycott it except that I never watch it. My hubby, who is an ardent couch potato (when he's not building clusters or playing semi-pro racquetball) tried watching but gave up. For a guy whose hand has melded into the remote, that's saying something!

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 9:16 AM

Ghoulman, just a quick question, do you have a problem with everything in the world (well besides Firefly)? And if the answer is no then I would to hear what you don't have a problem with for once rather then what you do have a problem with.

Oh, and play Cantr II at www.cantr.net.

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 9:34 AM

LASHER99

Boycott? Um, you go on right ahead and tell all your friends (and your adoring public) that don't already watch it to boycott it as well. Those of us who are watching it will probably continue to do so. We have our own reasons to continue to watch it or to stop. Guess what, convincing those that don't already watch it will have how much negative impact on the Nielsens? Lemme think.... Nada. Zilch. Zip. Zero. Cya.

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 9:39 AM

FREAKYSINS

*sigh*

The first two seasons were, at best, "meh". Face it, the writing was, generally speaking, sub par. Of course, I blame the producers.

This season has been considerably more interesting, to say the least, and there have been several episodes I've thoroughly enjoyed. It's what the first season should have been, to be quite honest.

As far as your references to parallels with the current stupidity in Iraq, I agree to a point, in that, as has ever been the case, art imitates life. We have an unprovoked attack against civilian targets, to which there absolutely must be a response. It is here that I believe your righteousness and indignation falls short. Archer is trying to convince and appeal... to reach a diplomatic solution, though he has had to use force to get there. Obviously, that's not what's happened or is currently happening in the Middle East. It's my thought that the current administration has more in common with the Xindi than Starfleet. The Xindi are responding proactively to a threat which they are told will occur in the far future, not unlike the US-led invasion of Iraq.

But, I suppose we all see what we want to see.

If boycotting a television program makes you feel better, knock yourself out. Me, I'll be casting a vote come November.

Peace

-FS

If I ever decide to kill you, you'll be standing, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed.

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 9:48 AM

Enterprise is most of the time an incredibly dull show it doesn't really do anything. Now I'll admit that this past season has picked it up a bit but not alot. However if you want to find propaganda Ghoulman perhaps you should check your own post. You're just trying to disect the show until you can find some political meaning for you to complain about I'm sure if I tried hard enough I could shove the same amount of political crap into Firefly.

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 10:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rklenseth:
Ghoulman, just a quick question, do you have a problem with everything in the world (well besides Firefly)? And if the answer is no then I would to hear what you don't have a problem with for once rather then what you do have a problem with.

Oh, and play Cantr II at www.cantr.net

Oh come now. It's not like I have been smackin' post after post of "things I hate". There have only been two things I've hated and posted here. Bad TV and bad politics. It's not like I have a list. Gotta ask, why do you think I'm such a muck raker?

Besides, it's not like I'm the only person around saying these things. And if you people want Sci-Fi turned into crappy 'entertainment' then you got your wish. I just thank the TV Goddesses for Joss Whedon every frellin' day.

Oh, and we are neck and neck with the SAVE Enteprise thread! *chuckle* Wow, it's a race! But hey, the show was renewed soooo... this thread has already lost. But that doesn't mean we on the Net can't express our opinions. After all, that's what this stuff is for... and Hollywoodland is reading it. Trust me, the Trek producers don't like me one bit.

Hmm, things I DO like... Sci-Fi only...
Oh... I thought Farscape turned into a great show. How's that? Oh, and the new Battlestar Galactica is terrific. Love that Moore guy. Since he left Star Trek his talents can finally be freed.

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 10:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
After all, that's what this stuff is for... and Hollywoodland is reading it. Trust me, the Trek producers don't like me one bit.

Even if anyone at Hollywood is reading this I don't think they give a damn what you, me, or anyone else here thinks. Just so long as they keep getting their money they're happy.

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 11:03 AM

Well, it seems like when ever I read a post by you it is something bad. Maybe I'm just not reading your good posts.

Oh, and play Cantr II at www.cantr.net.

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 11:14 AM

Well RKLENSETH, I think standing up to Right Wing liars is a positive thing myself. Have ya NOT seen CNN? Where have you been the last few years? You know there is this 'War on Terror' baloney around right? Oh, I'm just teasing ya.

And Ghola, I'm not the only one who has made the connection to Bush and Enterprise. Not to mention it's more than a little obvious. There have been articles about this, there has been talk about it. So don't come around saying I made it up or it's just my opinion - this is the reality. If you don't believe me then you haven't been paying attention to what's going on, what's being said, and most importantly, what's been written about Enterprise.

Do your own research.

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 11:30 AM

CAPTAINCDC

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
I just thank the TV Goddesses for Joss Whedon every frellin' day.

Finally, something you and I agree on!

Quote:
Trust me, the Trek producers don't like me one bit.

Ah, you also found something the Trek producers and I agree on!

I have been watching Enterprise since the first ep, and am thoroughly pleased that it is coming back. For one reason, because it pisses you off so much. Another more important reason, because I enjoy the show. And what do you know, I don't exhibit any of the pathetic sexual deviant geek fan boy qualities that you implied every Enterprise fan must. Don't read so much into every show. Just because you want it to be there, 'cause you hate the show, does not mean it is or that it was the writer/producers intent. If you like the show, watch it. If you don't, then don't watch, because I for one am tired of hearing your self important blatherings. And for someone taking shots at those that you deem practice "bad politics", try not to stereotype people as much.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 11:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:

And Ghola, I'm not the only one who has made the connection to Bush and Enterprise. Not to mention it's more than a little obvious. There have been articles about this, there has been talk about it. So don't come around saying I made it up or it's just my opinion - this is the reality. If you don't believe me then you haven't been paying attention to what's going on, what's being said, and most importantly, what's been written about Enterprise.

Do your own research.

It is just your opinion like this whole T'pol going back to Archer like a battered wife when was this? Or the vulcans being liberals and Archer's father being Bush Sr. please apart from the fact that was introduced in the pilot (the one written before 9/11) the Vulcans were merely used as a plot device to create conflict. I can see where you could see the connection between Iraq/the Xindi thing from the first few episodes of the arc but more recently Archer has been allied with some Xindi and there are aliens that have been tricking the Xindi into attacking earth. I do agree that they should give more for the two minority characters to do but yelling racism is a pretty big accusation.

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 11:55 AM

^^^ Hey CAPTAINCDC, like the show all ya want. Not like it's a crime to lack sagacity. Reading your post I suspect you think of yourself as a 'geek' and therefore don't like to be called 'smelly' or something. That's fine, and hey, you're standing up for yourself! Good on you. But I don't like "Fanboy" culture and, as someone with some experience in that melee, I can tell ya that Fanboys are nothing but psychological misfits who have obsessed over to much fantasy and Sci-Fi. Worse, tptb will take advantage of this and sell you all the fetish objects your addiction can pay for. Is that healthy for the Fanboy? No, of course not. Worse, the Fanboy culture that has been groomed by Hollywoodland to build franchises these days lately have revealed themselves as the brainwash it is. Even more ... er, worse - this model of Fanboy pandering only encourages crap shows like SG-1 or Babylon 5 (which aren't horrific like ENT but are just as boring... if written competently, and that's not saying much).

I want shows like Firefly!!! See where I'm going with this? I'm not just bitching in the air here, I see direct currents (currents you might change!) in Hollywoodland that caused the cancellation of Firefly, Angel, and Buffy.

About politics... I don't know myself but it's pretty obvious to me Firefly was 'messed with' by FOX simply because they saw it as liberal propoganda. That, btw will be my next thread.

btw, a lie is not an opinion. So don't jump on me for shitting on peoples opinions, as I've never done that. Liars, however, will feel my full wrath.

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 12:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghola:
It is just your opinion like this whole T'pol going back to Archer like a battered wife when was this? Or the vulcans being liberals and Archer's father being Bush Sr. please apart from the fact that was introduced in the pilot (the one written before 9/11) the Vulcans were merely used as a plot device to create conflict. I can see where you could see the connection between Iraq/the Xindi thing from the first few episodes of the arc but more recently Archer has been allied with some Xindi and there are aliens that have been tricking the Xindi into attacking earth. I do agree that they should give more for the two minority characters to do but yelling racism is a pretty big accusation.

English! Please!

But I think I get you. I see where you see some of what I mean (glad to see Joss' metaphor ladden stories have had an affect) but not all of it. Especially T'Pol. I do see one problem you have, you are following the plots. That is misleading as the plot will pull you around by the nose (narratively speaking). Watch what the charactes do. What choices they make. A story can't just ignore reality, even in these days of unreality.

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 12:23 PM

ANNIK

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Worse, Enterprise is also the producers sycophantic pro George "Dubya" Bush cream dream. Notice how the protagonist, Capt. Archer, is the son of a "great man" who was held back by the (liberal) Vulcans. As the show progresses, Archer becomes increasingly more angry and with a terrorist attack on Earth by an alien race he agrees to "do what it takes" to ... well, the actual goals aren't defined. Stop the bad guys? Sound familiar? Propoganda is not what I watch Star Trek for let alone a soft sell for the War in Iraq. It's become painfully obvious that Enterprise means to present the 'War against Islam" as a great adventure. Sick.
(snipped)
Boycott Enterprise.

Thanx for your time.
---
Ghoulman

I think you've done a great analysis here, Ghoulman, although as a non-American I'd go a step further and say that the show seems to be doing a soft-sell on war in general, not just the one in Iraq. (So, are you guys planning to invade anyone else this year?

).

I'll still watch the show, at this point mostly to see what else they'll screw up in their own continuity/character development.

Your point about entertainment being used as propaganda is well-known by many: remember when all the bad guys in movies always looked German? (remember The Empire in Star Wars?)

Then we hit ST:TNG and all the Romulans look suspiciously middle-eastern. It goes on from there.

I well remember a class at uni where we were looking at the movie, "Top Gun," and one guy kept insisting it was just a great movie and wasn't trying to say anything. As one of our American classmates said to him, "Do you think that the navy just loans out aircraft carriers for the heck of it?"

There was a point here somewhere, but I think it got lost somewhere behind a bad script.

Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 12:36 PM

CAPTAINCDC

Like I said in my first reply to you Ghoulman, I am not a sad geek fanboy (not that there is anything wrong with that, and I'm sure that you will misinterpret my denial as me being in a state of denial, but whatever). I am totally on board for changing the current climate of television. I hunger for the next firefly, buffy, angel, or wonderfalls to make it on the air and be a success. I just don't think Enterprise is public enemy #1 in fighting that front. And I don't believe for one moment that the Fox network "messed with firefly simply because they saw it as liberal propaganda". They axed it because they had no vision and did not realize what a jewel joss and tim had given them. I know that there is a lot of propaganda out there primarily by the government (regardless of who is in the white house) but you come off sounding paranoid seeing propaganda where it might not exist. Your response to ghola advising to ignore plot in favor of reading between the lines is a very telling insight into your views of these shows that we are debating. I agree that we need to read between the lines to see the big picture, but how can you fully enjoy a tv show if you ignore plot?

And could you expand upon what you meant by this:

Quote:
btw, a lie is not an opinion. So don't jump on me for shitting on peoples opinions, as I've never done that. Liars, however, will feel my full wrath.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 12:37 PM

3OF19

If you absolutely want to analyze the Xindi arc, do it right:
Sphere Builders: Bush Administration
Xindi:
Reptilians: US
Insectoids: UK
Aquatics: UN
Primates: Germany
Arboreals: France

Starfleet: US between 9/11 and Iraq war.

I'd agree with you that "Chosen Realm" (the suicide bomber episode) was very heavy handed. But overall the third season has been very good.

It has been really desperate times for the Enterprise crew, trying to prevent the certain destruction of Earth. They have done things they aren't proud off to say the least, torturing a prisoner in Anomaly, stealing engine parts in Damage...
But don't forget, this is a mission they have to see through. Real danger, and not shaky intel and a possible hidden agenda.

If I could trade Enterprise season 4 for Firefly on tv again, I'd do it in a hearbeat. It's not that good, but has shown enough improvement through this season that I'll tune in again next season, and if that one continues to improve (and the ratings finally catch on) the seasons that might follow.

If you had seen the last episode, you'd also have checked that Hoshi rant at the door.

Mayweather has been underused this season for a reason: Anthony Montgomery's father has been very ill this past year and Anthony specifically asked for more time off so he could take care of him.

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 1:18 PM

SOUTHERNSLAYER

As I've stated before In a similar thread, Im not the biggest Enterprise fan but I must disagree with your posts and the very idea behind your posts. If you dislike Enterprise as much as you say, then why watch the show in the first place? Wouldn't it be simpler for you to choose not to watch Enterprise and allow others the choice of whether or not to watch, free from the damaging effects of your forced opinions? I also feel it is unfair for you to further damage a shows reputation by suggesting it mirrors events of a current and heated political nature. Such disscusions only ever succeed in creating unwanted arguments of which are unessesary and divide us. Finally I must display my disgust at your willingness to use a tool intended to allow us Browncoats to converse, as a tool in which to tarnish another shows name in the hope of securing its cancellation. That I believe is low, especially considering the trials us Browncoats have had to endure this past while back.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 2:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:

btw, a lie is not an opinion. So don't jump on me for shitting on peoples opinions, as I've never done that.

You're not shitting on peoples opinions??? I must have read the following statement wrong.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:

^^^ Hey CAPTAINCDC, like the show all ya want. Not like it's a crime to lack sagacity.

You're calling him stupid and you're not shitting on someone's opinions?

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 2:16 PM

JERRY111

enterprise is better than firefly

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 2:21 PM

FOSTER

Whoa, spewing stereotypes imagine that. I did not know that the only people who liked enterprise were obsessed little boys. I guess that I will just have to reevaluate my interest in the show. And Vulcan’s are liberal when did that happen last time I checked they were the most tradition bound unchanging logical race in the Trek verse. Not that refusal to change and logic really go together if you are looking to survive but never mind.

As for suicidal bombers sure they can blow themselves up all they want but not if other people are in the vicinity. As for killing suicide bombers why the hell not. They want to die for their cause it makes them martyrs. You are much more useful to the cause if you are dead.

The theme that you see against liberal politics in the show and using CNN as conservative, well, I don’t think that you’ve noticed but CNN is a liberal news source. You also didn’t need to slam CAPTIANCDC, just to let you know it makes you look petty.

The propaganda that your talking about in the show that is their prerogative so they support Bush’s decision what’s it to you? If you feel so bad about it go produce your own show and have it support your own beliefs. Otherwise this post of yours is propaganda and well if you want to be more successful at it you might want to follow Hitler’s advice “All propaganda has to be popular and has to adapt its spiritual level to the perception of the least intelligent of those towards whom it intends to direct itself.”

As for liberalism in general, do you really just mean you’re against the war? Well war makes great stories. Wait I know another show that had to do with War. If you are trying to say that Firefly’s message is liberal well let me say that if you take our two main political parties and their values, the Democrats would not be the Browncoats. Republicans are for smaller government (much), less government interference in private lives, and more personal responsibility. Just to let you know.

I recomend that you read FREEHOLD by Michael Z. Williamson, at least it will give you an idea of how the other side sees things. or ATLAS SHRUGGED by Ayn Rand.

"The real destroyer of the liberties of the people is he who spreads among them bounties, donations and benefits." -Plutarch

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 2:32 PM

SHADESIREN

I was a loyal Trekkie, thruogh Next Generation, through Voyager, and through most of DS( (ok, I ony really like the Ferengi episodes, but still).

I still own a Next Gen and a Voyager "communicator badge" (pretty shiny pins).

I watched the first season of Enterprise. I thought the Beagle was adorable. I watched part of the second season..

and I realized, hey - I've seen this episode before.. it was called "Enemy Mine" the first time.

I realized that every episode I was watching was a total rip off of some other movie or episode of another series, and I just couldn't watch it anymore.

I think I actually saw the season finale of season 2. I have only seen bits and pieces of the last season - and that was too much. It just made me sick to know that Enterprise would keep flying, when Firefly was gone.

When Buffy was gone.. when Angel was gone.. when Wonderfalls was gone.

All good things must come to an end, huh? Does that mean the bad stuff just goes on and on and on and... ugh.. my tummy hurts.

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 2:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jerry111:
enterprise is better than firefly

Now that's a comment that can get you hurt out here, son.

Oh, and play Cantr II at www.cantr.net.

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 3:00 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

WHAO THERE FOSTER! When you say...

Quote:
If you are trying to say that Firefly’s message is liberal well let me say that if you take our two main political parties and their values, the Democrats would not be the Browncoats. Republicans are for smaller government (much), less government interference in private lives, and more personal responsibility. Just to let you know.

...you're WAAAAY off the mark! The Alliance is not Democrats. It's the United States when it tries to dominate/ colonize other nations. And if you don't belive me, believe Joss...

"Mal's politics are very reactionary and 'Big government is bad' and 'Don't interfere with my life,"' Whedon explains. "And sometimes he's wrong -- because sometimes the Alliance is America, this beautiful shining light of democracy. But sometimes the Alliance is America in Vietnam: we have a lot of petty politics, we are way out of our league and we have no right to control these people. And yet! Sometimes the Alliance is America in Nazi Germany. And Mal can't see that, because he was a Vietnamese."

Joss Whedon

In this case, it would be George (dubya) Bush interfering in Iraq instead of Johnson interfering in Vietnam. And if you STILL don't believe me- here's the link!

http://flatdisk.net/exonews/xtra/josswhedon.htm

Actually, I suggest you read the whole thing anyway... it's really interesting and very revealing.

Oh and BTW, I don't watch Cap'n Archer. Like the previous poster said- do only the bad things go on and on?

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 3:13 PM

NRKANGEL

Open post to everyone on this thread-

What's going on here? Good grief, enough with the juvenile crap already. What happened to finding something we can all share and enjoy? I thought that's what this board was about, sharing the fun of FF.

At the top of this posting, there is a note asking everyone to please be civil when responding to others. You're adults. Y'all know what's right. Keep that in mind before rationalizing the subtle insults and derogatory references to others. It not enough to say that someone else started it, or that you were only defending yourself from a personal attack.

You guys have been a lot of fun. Don't spoil it by escalating this trivial crap.

Hey, anyone want to create a FireFly boardgame?

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 3:23 PM

NRKANGEL

Quote:
Originally posted by Shadesiren:
I was a loyal Trekkie, thruogh Next Generation, through Voyager, and through most of DS( (ok, I ony really like the Ferengi episodes, but still).

It just made me sick to know that Enterprise would keep flying, when Firefly was gone.

All good things must come to an end, huh? Does that mean the bad stuff just goes on and on and on and... ugh.. my tummy hurts.

Yeah...have to agree, hurt tummy and all. I'm still a fan of the old Star Trek series, campy as it looks now, but I couldn't stay on the bandwagon for the whole of STNG or the others. Some episodes were great, but It was just a little too sterile for me...I prefer watching Mal and company match wits with the Alliance and the likes of "YoSafBridge" on the busted-looking, ancient relic of a Firefly. Damn I love that ship...

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 4:40 PM

JRC

Boycott? No thanks. I will and have stayed away from Idol, that Hilton crap, any "reality" crap for that matter. Can you please get p.o.'d at them instead? The people that make these shows popular should "feel your full wrath", not Enterprise fans. Fan boy geek? Used to be, but it was never a bad thing, like being addicted to cocaine. I have one question about these comparisons on Enterprise and war: Why not ask the writers, producers, even the actors from the show? I'm pretty sure they would have something to say about that. In the meantime, I will not believe everything said about the show.

Everyone dies alone.

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 4:57 PM

RAW53X

ENTERPRISE. is not a bad show. is had some good epersodes. it just that the series has not been used to its full potential. it been improving in series 3.

the whole war on terror angle has some merrit. but sci-fi has allway mirrored world events just look at the history of comix and movies.

but the suiside bomber eposode morral is "an eye for an eye and the world goes blind".

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 5:19 PM

CLEANER

Mmmmm to all those calling for a show to be cancelled, u all deserved to have FF cancelled on you.

Alot of people consider FF to be crap or average at best, not that you would ever admit this to yourselves.

Prehaps the lack of comic relief in Enterprise is not to your liking, or maybe they need to add some children to the crew to bring it down closer to your age group? IMHO these are 2 major improvements of Enterprise over TNG Voyager and DS9. I am by no means a Trekkie. I think ST some of the worst PC crap ever put on TV, especially the original series that was 70% outright US propaganda. Enterprise is a breath of fresh air.

It annoys me that people cannot see the links between the episodes. I couldn't believe all these trek nerds complaining that T'Pol was not acting like a Vulcan, if you couldn't read between the lines that she was under the influence of something then GO WATCH SURVIVOR it should be dumb enough for u to comprehend!

I'll say it again DON'T S**T WHERE U EAT! support Scifi, there is very little left.

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 5:43 PM

CALHOUN

Wailin on Enterprise... with all the other crap on tv... No one should wail on Enterprise without first wailin on about a billion other reality or sitcom shows first. I'll gladly take any sci-fi over idol or the like.

Political parallels... some people can see parallels with anything. Some people hear voices in their heads.

I like smackin'em!

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 5:57 PM

KNIBBLET

Ghoul,

I have to say that I think the show has improved over the latter half of the current season.

T'Pol isn't a battered wife, nor is she a skank. Her attraction to Archer isn't that of love or the Stockholm Syndrome. The episode that showed them married (He had no ability to maintain memory) displayed only loyalty and a sense of guilt that he was injured saving her.

I enjoy the fact that in an alternate future, she and Tripp are married. He's sort of cute in a southern fella sort of way.

As for the Archer/Bush parallels ... I couldn't agree with you less.

1. Unlike Archer, Bush is not the son of a great man. He's the son of a one term president who was allegedly "out of the loop" concerning Iran/Contra. hmmmm, former head of the CIA, current VP and he is out of the loop?

I saw a bumper sticker yesterday. "Like Father Like Son. One Term." I'm going to get one for my car.

Before I hear about how I'm a just a liberal and therefore a 'hater', I voted for Reagan twice and Bush Sr once.

Archer isn't a weak-minded, lying bastage who avoids moral responsibility and the slightest personal risk. He doesn't think he hears God singing his praises in his morning bowl of cornflakes.

I like Archer. I loathe Shrub.

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 6:20 PM

DRBORIS

Star Trek has from its inception always carried a political message of some sort. Granted it used to be far more American-centrist. So what if it swung later. decide the swing direction for yourselves and stop argueing about it ain't accomplishing anything and because in the long run most people arn't growing their political opinions from what they've seen on Trek.

Got news for some of you who hate Ent. because of seasons one and two. No Trek was ever at its best right out of the gate. Ent. just had a particularly bad start due to poor writeing and no attempts to find the stride.
...
The quality improvement for the latter half of this season? Yup, experimenting with different writers...

As for insulting Trekkies: It's mean for no reason. I know popular media has given them a bad name for being show worshipping nerds but I mean, take a look at us. The orriginal Trek had about DOUBLE the time on air our hero show did. Who are we to make fun of them...

Oh well, all of that is just my built up frustration at the Ent. bashers. Take it for what its worth...

---
"If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed." - Mal

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Friday, May 21, 2004 2:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by captaincdc:

And could you expand upon what you meant by this:
Quote:
btw, a lie is not an opinion. So don't jump on me for shitting on peoples opinions, as I've never done that. Liars, however, will feel my full wrath.

Thought I was clear when I said about my political posts ...

Quote:
About politics... I don't know myself but it's pretty obvious to me Firefly was 'messed with' by FOX simply because they saw it as liberal propoganda. That, btw will be my next thread.

btw, a lie is not an opinion. So don't jump on me for shitting on peoples opinions, as I've never done that. Liars, however, will feel my full wrath.

And to CERTAIN OTHERS HERE - I don't appreciate being misquoted... TWICE, in this thread. If you people don't know how to read I might suggest the long walk off the short warp nacelle.

And I can see I've found a bunch of people who have no frellin' clue at all. No politics in Star Trek? STAR TREK!!! Buy a frellin' clue.

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Friday, May 21, 2004 3:21 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Politics is in EVERYTHING. Some of you are too young to remember those ridiculous Pledge (furniture polish) commercials with the woman waltzing around her upper middle class home in heels and a chiffon dress, a can of Pledge in her hand, but there's politics in that too: We're all upper-middle class or aspire to be, the woman is a stay at home whose biggest concern is getting her furniture glossy and clean, buying something will make you complete.

It's deeply frustrating to read science fiction that dreams up atom-thick beings living on the surface of a neutron star who have no idea of a vertical dimension, only to have them behave like the author's stupid idea of primitive African tribes... Even LeGuin, who TRIES to address the social dimension, can't seem to rid her characters of a North American middle class angst.

Firefly is in fact OVERTLY political. You don't need to look very deep to see that Mal is reacting to the political, economic, and military structure of his 'verse by being in opposition.

Having said that... Ghoulman, while I understand your frustration it's not productive to glower. We have a guy at work whose main response to so-called liberal politics is to adopt a threatening stance (raised voice, nose to nose, veins popping, fists clenched). It's a real discussion stopper.

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Friday, May 21, 2004 3:40 AM

JLP

Ghoulman,

What a load. When I read posts like yours, posts that attempt to be so completely pseudo-intellectual about an entertainment show, I can have only one rational reaction--to roll my eyes. Agenda? Yes. You do have an agenda. Destroy what little science fiction on television there is in the name of advancing some liberal namby pamby schlepp ideals.

Do I love Star Trek Enterprise? Not especially. I have watched it off and on for the three seasons. I liked season one fairly, season 2 left me uninterested, and season three has been one of the more enjoyable sci-fi seasons anywhere.

Do I get my politics from Star Trek? Come on. Do I get my opinions on the Iraqi war from Star Trek? You must be kidding.

It is a show. It is entertainment. I am completely capable, as are the majority of people who think about anythign besides their navel lint of keeping story and reality seperate. So even if ST:E is trying to advance "right wing" ideals, are we not able to distance ourselves from the story line?

I had included a long political rant in this post. I have taken it out because you know what? This site is a haven for me. A place I visit daily to hang out with folks who love firefly. Politics makes people angry. I know my opinions, and no poorly worded argument by you will change them. I will avoid your posts from now on.

over and out.

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Friday, May 21, 2004 6:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

Having said that... Ghoulman, while I understand your frustration it's not productive to glower. We have a guy at work whose main response to so-called liberal politics is to adopt a threatening stance (raised voice, nose to nose, veins popping, fists clenched). It's a real discussion stopper.

Terrific post SignyM. You're great!

And about that guy in your office... send him my way and I can deal with him.

And just to put this out there (to no one in particular) - people around this BBS seem to blame me for 'arguments' on this BBS. Well, I gotta say that's just sour grapes from people who can't deal with someone who doesn't put up with baloney. You know... I gots man parts

. Ain't Dr. Phil over here. Notice how some people, even in this thread, are so put out they lay down post after post about how horrible I am. Well, it's not like I'm going after people. I got jumped in the 'Our President' thread and defended myself from a lieing bastard. Then, a certain someone decided to troll me about the 'torture Mr. Bush' thing... and he got his too (for being a liar, cruel, and inhuman). It's not like I don't play nice if people play fair.

But this Enterprise thing is not the end of the world... why some people think that I can only imagine they are 'smelly'

Personally, I see it as a sad comment on Sci-Fi, which I think is the point I made clear in my first post. Some people bring a lot of baggage with them and Trekkies (btw, I consider myself a Trekkie) perhaps more so.

Case in point... I spent a few months last year posting against Enterprise on th eTrekBBS. Funny, the Trek fans there like me. It's like I said in another thread - a lack of sagacity isn't a judgement on your intellegence. People like Benny Hill but that doesn't make them stupid. Though not understanding that might indecate so *chuckle*

What... you're shocked and disappointed? I'm evil.

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Friday, May 21, 2004 6:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jlp:
Ghoulman,

What a load. When I read posts like yours, posts that attempt to be so completely pseudo-intellectual about an entertainment show, I can have only one rational reaction--to roll my eyes. Agenda? Yes. You do have an agenda. Destroy what little science fiction on television there is in the name of advancing some liberal namby pamby schlepp ideals.

Do I love Star Trek Enterprise? Not especially. I have watched it off and on for the three seasons. I liked season one fairly, season 2 left me uninterested, and season three has been one of the more enjoyable sci-fi seasons anywhere.

Do I get my politics from Star Trek? Come on. Do I get my opinions on the Iraqi war from Star Trek? You must be kidding.

It is a show. It is entertainment. I am completely capable, as are the majority of people who think about anythign besides their navel lint of keeping story and reality seperate. So even if ST:E is trying to advance "right wing" ideals, are we not able to distance ourselves from the story line?

I had included a long political rant in this post. I have taken it out because you know what? This site is a haven for me. A place I visit daily to hang out with folks who love firefly. Politics makes people angry. I know my opinions, and no poorly worded argument by you will change them. I will avoid your posts from now on.

over and out.

Does ENTERPRISE have an agenda? Does Star Trek have a tradition of political stories? Does Ghoulman have an agenda?

Well, I'm speculating (that's the pseudo-intellectual part, can't disagree there) on the right wing shift in Enterprise. Which I think is a valid argument considering the shows past. I would hope you might recognise that before just dumping on me. It's not like I pulled this stuff from my ass. Also, I did mention the negative affect this sort of 'franchise' creature can have and the damage it can bring to genre TV and movies. But hey, if you don't care about such things ...

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Friday, May 21, 2004 6:35 AM

And so something is only good if it is left wing propaganda? I find that hard to swallow because both the right wing and the left wing have committed just as much atrocities as the other.

So what if Enterprise has a right wing leaning. Should we boycott The West Wing because it has a left wing leaning?

Oh, and play Cantr II at www.cantr.net.

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Friday, May 21, 2004 6:47 AM

^^^ and where is that said rklenseth? BTW, I think West Wing is didactic in a similar way Enterprise is. But please keep in mind... no one was ever killed because of some milque toast lefty gits bullsh*t opinions.

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Friday, May 21, 2004 6:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by annik:
Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Worse, Enterprise is also the producers sycophantic pro George "Dubya" Bush cream dream. Notice how the protagonist, Capt. Archer, is the son of a "great man" who was held back by the (liberal) Vulcans. As the show progresses, Archer becomes increasingly more angry and with a terrorist attack on Earth by an alien race he agrees to "do what it takes" to ... well, the actual goals aren't defined. Stop the bad guys? Sound familiar? Propoganda is not what I watch Star Trek for let alone a soft sell for the War in Iraq. It's become painfully obvious that Enterprise means to present the 'War against Islam" as a great adventure. Sick.
(snipped)
Boycott Enterprise.

Thanx for your time.
---
Ghoulman

I think you've done a great analysis here, Ghoulman, although as a non-American I'd go a step further and say that the show seems to be doing a soft-sell on war in general, not just the one in Iraq. (So, are you guys planning to invade anyone else this year? ).

I'll still watch the show, at this point mostly to see what else they'll screw up in their own continuity/character development.

Your point about entertainment being used as propaganda is well-known by many: remember when all the bad guys in movies always looked German? (remember The Empire in Star Wars?)

Then we hit ST:TNG and all the Romulans look suspiciously middle-eastern. It goes on from there.

I well remember a class at uni where we were looking at the movie, "Top Gun," and one guy kept insisting it was just a great movie and wasn't trying to say anything. As one of our American classmates said to him, "Do you think that the navy just loans out aircraft carriers for the heck of it?"

There was a point here somewhere, but I think it got lost somewhere behind a bad script.

Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.

I once loved a girl named Annik. Ahhh, Quebec City. YOU deserve a nice cyber cookie. Enjoy.

Thanx for recognising what certain other people seem to be purposely avoiding - the allegory.

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Friday, May 21, 2004 7:14 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Well, I always wondered why this bimbo was waltzing around with a can of Pledge, fer Chrissakes. Now it's babes humping beer bottles, credit cards, and cars. Talk about replacing human relationships with conusmer products!

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Friday, May 21, 2004 7:29 AM

SOUTHERNMERC

Actually, Ghoulman, most of the posts of yours I have read have been very political (regardless of topic) and somewhat aggressive in tone. That you care deeply for politics comes through in your posts. The only problem being that you put a political slant on EVERY post I have read. While many of us enjoy, and look forward to, political discussions with other intelligent adults, you seem to push it upon others. That, I believe, is the issue some here have with you. Not that you are a left-wing, right-wing, dining-room, servant's-quarters or any other part of the house political person, but that you are too aggressive with it and bring politics into non-political threads. I can see you have alot of passion for this, but please remember that others may not share your enthusiasm for politics in a non-political context.

And, BTW, saying someone has a lack of sagacity means you are saying they have a lack of intelligence and judgment, since sagacity means "penetrating intelligence and sound judgment." You also don't seem to speak well of anyone til they agree with you, and trash those that don't, that doesn't help at all. Name calling doesn't help your argument, please refrain.

Now, back to topic.

Enterprise season one and two were alright in that I needed the SF fix and it was there. Some of the stories had been done before on other Trek series, though, and this was a little off-putting. When season three rolled around, I could only get through part of it before I removed it from my recorder's programming. I can see the topical nature of the current season's plot (you are right about that, GM), but the enemy in the show is alot more clear cut than the one's IRL. Archer's mission is alot clearer, as well, which made me question his judgment on a few episodes (don't ask me to name them, don't remember) when he got sidetracked doing something OTHER than moving forward toward the objective. I liked the addition of the Andorians when they first appeared, as they added an interesting political dynamic between humans and vulcans. That is what I really wish they had explored with the third season, instead of a "save the EAAAAAAAAARRTH!!" (big, booming, dramatic music and sing-song voice) storyline. There have been a few good eps. this season, but not enough to keep me interested.

DrBoris said:

Quote:
No Trek was ever at its best right out of the gate. Ent. just had a particularly bad start due to poor writeing and no attempts to find the stride.

This can be said about MANY great shows. Quite a few didn't hit their stride until later seasons, and not just Trek series (Cheers, MASH, B5). It takes a little patience to realize the great ones when they are among us. Sadly, TV execs don't have ANY nowadays: If a show doesn't rock the house right away, it gets cancelled. One reason reality shows are the rage now is that they DON'T have to build up, as they get big, drooling ratings right off the bat. They also don't hang around long, only one season typically, so don't have to be good enough to hold on to viewers. Just good (or freaky, sick, or droll) enough to get the flash-in-the-pan interest. Enterprise may get better. Will have to look at all the eps. of this season on reruns to be sure.

Jayne: "See, Vera? You get dressed up, you get taken someplace fun!"

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Friday, May 21, 2004 8:24 AM

CAPTAINCDC

Quote:
And, BTW, saying someone has a lack of sagacity means you are saying they have a lack of intelligence and judgment, since sagacity means "penetrating intelligence and sound judgment." You also don't seem to speak well of anyone til they agree with you, and trash those that don't, that doesn't help at all. Name calling doesn't help your argument, please refrain.

That is how Ghoulman handles all of his threads. If a person does not agree with him, well they must be a moron.

And no Ghoulman, I do not purposefully ignore allegory. I just don't see right wing progaganda in every allegorical storyline like you apparently do.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Friday, May 21, 2004 9:37 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

The absolute most alien show I've ever seen is FF.

There was an exchange that went (more or less):
"If you can't run, then walk, if you can't walk then crawl, and if you can't crawl ..."

Now as I was following this I was trying to predict how this sequence would end.

In Western cultures we are taught that only the 'immutable' things are meaningful ... the isms and ologies. People achieve meaning with their lives only insofar as they lose themselves or sacrifice themselves to the greater. It makes our economic system possible (c'mon, do you REALLY want your certain fate to be to toil most of the years of your life and hope and pray you don't get ill and wiped out financially?) So our ending would be "if you can't crawl ... do yourself in so as not to be a burden to this big all important ism."

Instead it ended ... "find someone to carry you."
Now THAT is political. And alien.

Much more interesting that watching cowBOYS in space.

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Friday, May 21, 2004 10:47 AM