Boycott ENTERPRISE .. it's just that bad. by Ghoulman

It's a viable universe, except when Roddenberry (who was brilliant) died, for some reason the torch was passed to Ronald Moore and Brannon Braga, who are morons.

Fascistic, mysoginistic morons, if I recall their episodes of "TNG" correctly.

They killed it dead. And they're too stupid to know it, because of all that money and sex they have.

___\_o_/___
--------------- (Qs)

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Sunday, May 23, 2004 7:57 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Annik,

Not having been where you are, I can only imagine.

I hope you live in a humane country with decent medical care and basic support for every day life.

And I deeply and sincerely hope you are doing better every day.

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Monday, May 24, 2004 9:11 AM

JLP

Annik,

I too hope that you are doing well, and that you are not in any pain. I hope that this board and the general company of browncoats can bring a little enjoyment.

Best wishes.

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Monday, May 24, 2004 9:48 AM

DUNDEE

i watched an eppisode of enterprise the other day.... i didnt think it was all THAT bad..... ofcourse i also fell asleep 10 minutes in so.........

Dear diary, Today I was pompous and my sister was crazy,
Today we where kidnapped my hill folk never to be seen again, it was the best day ever.

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Monday, May 24, 2004 10:11 AM

FIREFLEW

Quote:
Originally posted by SouthernMerc:
Quote:
However, the ORIGINAL cause of war was, essentially, a lie. There are no weapons of mass destruction found, a year after the war. In England, it was found that the idea of 45-minute deployable WMD was in fact a lie.

Didn't they find some artillery shells with sarin gas in them? I don't remember the exact news bit, so can you clarify?

I'm not sure about that, but I was referring to the claim that Iraq had deployable (within 45 minutes) long range weapons of mass destrution; this was the information that Bush/Blair presented to people in order to get backing for a war.

Jayne: "Know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I beat you with till you understand who's in command."

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Monday, May 24, 2004 10:51 AM

MAUGWAI

I think some people are confused about the difference between an allegory and a message. I definitely think Enterprise has several messages. Any decent show does. And I happen to like Enterprise better the second half of this season. So I watch it. I don't really care if anybody else does. If you hate it, more power to you. Watch something else.

But I don't think it's an allegory. An allegory is a story in which every element symbolizes something in real life, and the story its self is a symbol of a real life issue. So if you do believe Enterprise is completely symbolic of Bush's regime, then I suppose you're right in calling it an allegory. But I don't think everything in the show has a real life reflection.

Personally, I think the show has been finding its way this season. It's about sacrifices, both moral and physical, that we make for the greater good, and whether or not it's worth the cost. And I think that's worth investigating.

"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

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Monday, May 24, 2004 11:16 AM

PEACE

Quote:
Originally posted by SouthernMerc:
Quote:
However, the ORIGINAL cause of war was, essentially, a lie. There are no weapons of mass destruction found, a year after the war. In England, it was found that the idea of 45-minute deployable WMD was in fact a lie.

Didn't they find some artillery shells with sarin gas in them? I don't remember the exact news bit, so can you clarify?

I believe the find was of some artillery shells left over from the Iran-Iraq war. These would be battle-field weapons, tactical and extremely short-range, and a whole other category from the strategic WMD's most everyone had in mind when the war was being debated-- the sort of weapon that would have allowed Saddam to reach out and touch Riyadh (sp?) or Tel Aviv. That's why, for example, there was considerable discussion as to whether Saddam had violated range-limits on his ballistic missiles.

If I'm recalling this incorrectly, somebody shoot me a correction, please.

Oh, bugger! Now I have to wait for someone to wake up!

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Monday, May 24, 2004 1:28 PM

Dear God, if you hate it that much, just stop watching it. Watch your Firefly DVD again.

P.S. Its better than Voyager, least the captain's male.
You can add sexist to the story now :D

P.P.S. Not to totally disagree with you, I think replacing enterprise with Firefly would rock, just let me see how series, oops sorry, season 3 ends.

Oh, I'm going to that special kind of hell.

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Monday, May 24, 2004 4:00 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Annik, how're you doing? Let us know if there is ANYTHING we can do to help- even if it's just to jaw about FF.

(((((((Annik))))))

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Monday, May 24, 2004 4:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Annik,

Not having been where you are, I can only imagine.

I hope you live in a humane country with decent medical care and basic support for every day life.

And I deeply and sincerely hope you are doing better every day.

Thank you, Rue! I do live in a country with decent medical care: Canada. And I've been quite amazed/happy at what medical resources we have available to us here that fellow cancer survivors elsewhere, very sadly, don't.

The surpsing thing to me is how little there is to support someone who has kids and was once a major breadwinner in the two-working-adult-family ... I may be wrong, but it seems like getting cancer as a senior citizen is probably easier here ... at least they get a pension and probably don't have elementary-school aged dependents, as we do.

Sigh. I've said for awhile now that it's not the cancer that will kill me, it's the paperwork.

Sorry for going OT here.

Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.

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Monday, May 24, 2004 4:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jlp:
Annik,

I too hope that you are doing well, and that you are not in any pain. I hope that this board and the general company of browncoats can bring a little enjoyment.

Best wishes.

Thank you, JLP!

This Christmas past was the first-time ever our formerly 'middle-class' family needed to use a food bank. We also signed up at the cancer hospital for a Christmas hamper. The company that sponsored our family not only gave us all the fixin's for an excellent celebration meal, but they included the Firefly DVDs from our wish list as a present for the grownups.

We watch them often, and always happily.

I am fortunate re: pain. I had an excellent surgeon and experienced minimal discomfort after my mastectomy. Ongoing practise of tai chi has kept me with a full range of motion and I haven't suffered any post-surgical complications.

Chemo was long (18 months!) but seemed manageable at the time ... and thanks to one of the drugs, my formerly poker-straight hair came back in jet-black and curly! Woo hoo!

So far, checkups are looking good and I remain a NED (no evidence of disease) ... taking this thread *slightly* back to topic, if we only had the kind of scanning technology they've got on Star Trek (or, for that matter, the stuff Simon knew how to use!) we could probably tell a breast cancer patient definitively whether or not she still carried active cancer cells lurking around her body, waiting to metastasise.

And I love visiting with all you folks ... it's like some sort of eerie-ass second home.

Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.

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Monday, May 24, 2004 4:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Annik, how're you doing? Let us know if there is ANYTHING we can do to help- even if it's just to jaw about FF.

(((((((Annik))))))

Thanks for the hug, SignyM. Us one-breasted gals are particularly good at giving really *close* hugs.

(My apologies to the list for inadvertently taking this thread OT!

)

As mentioned in the two posts above, I'm doing OK (so far). Crossed fingers and prayers are always welcome.

I have had what I consider post-chemo complications (that is, I developed some problems 'coincidently' around when my chemo finished). I now have asthma and fibromyalgia, and the two are proving to be major problems getting a handle on.

I'm so exhausted that working FT again is a distant dream ... I still teach evenings at college for 1-2 courses per semester. A couple hours at a time is about as much as I can handle. But my old 'day job' career is on indefinite hiatus. When I have a good day, I'm working on writing and editing SF ... finally!

I'll stop now ... (sniff) ...everyone's questions are very surprising and ... wow! Thanks for the interest! I will *certainly* let you folks know if there is anything you can do to help.

Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.

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Monday, May 24, 2004 5:00 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by Peace:
If I'm recalling this incorrectly, somebody shoot me a correction, please.

This may very well be exactly what we were looking for. These are weapons of mass destruction, and Saddam Hussein was supposed to have gotten rid of them in accordance with UN Resolution 1441. It doesn't matter whether they are on missiles that can hit Riyadh or not (which Iraq also had).

It was confirmed that Iraq also had a missile that could hit both Tel Aviv and Riyadh. Iraq had produced many Al Husayn missiles which had a range of over 600 km. These weapons were strictly forbidden by UN resolution 687, which imposed a range limit of 150km. They have payload of over 500kg and can be fitted with chemical weapons.

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Monday, May 24, 2004 5:20 PM

PEACE

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:
Originally posted by Peace:
If I'm recalling this incorrectly, somebody shoot me a correction, please.
This may very well be exactly what we were looking for. These are weapons of mass destruction, and Saddam Hussein was supposed to have gotten rid of them in accordance with UN Resolution 1441. It doesn't matter whether they are on missiles that can hit Riyadh or not (which Iraq also had).

It was confirmed that Iraq also had a missile that could hit both Tel Aviv and Riyadh. Iraq had produced many Al Husayn missiles which had a range of over 600 km. These weapons were strictly forbidden by UN resolution 687, which imposed a range limit of 150km. They have payload of over 500kg and can be fitted with chemical weapons.

But my impression was that these were not from discovered caches of weapon, but were derelict pieces left over and forgotten from the Iran-Iraq War-- and, according to these two articles, not even distinguishable from regular artillery shells:

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/special/iraq/2575724

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0521/p09s01-coop.html

The shell or shells in question could only have been used in artilley, not in missiles (they couldn't be armed without being fired from a gun).

You're certainly entitled to see the issue differently, but to me this doesn't seem to be in the same class as strategic weapons.

And I apologize for helping to take this thread off-topic (I swore I wasn't going to do that, I really did....).

Oh, bugger! Now I have to wait for someone to wake up!

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Monday, May 24, 2004 5:41 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Uh... WHAT was the topic of this thread?? I've forgotten!

But that's OK- weve taken some interesting detours along the way.

((((((((Annik+family))))))))

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Monday, May 24, 2004 6:25 PM

SHINY

The topic is how much browncoats love each other.

{{{{{{{{{{Annik}}}}}}}}}}

Please help Haken keep this site running by occasionally clicking on some of the sponsored ad links on the side of the page!

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Monday, May 24, 2004 7:07 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

A great deal of Hussein’s chemical weapons were leftovers from the Persian War, or shortly there after. I don't know what difference that makes. And not being distinguishable from an explosive artillery shell doesn't make any difference either. These are chemical weapons. These are the reasons we went to war. Hussein was not supposed to have them.

As far as strategic weapons are concerned, according to the UN, that is irrelevant, also. The UN does not limit the list of banned weapons to strategic weapons. The UN says that Iraq is not allowed to have any chemical weapons, at all. Now if you're okay with Hussein's Iraq having had chemical weapons, then okay, I'm not trying to tell you you're wrong, but based on the Resolutions against Iraq, the UN doesn't agree.

The only question is, did they come from an Iraqi cache or were they imported from, say Syria? Chances are pretty good that they did come from an Iraqi cache. The problem is proving that, and to do that, we’re going to have to identify a cache.

Also best wishes to Annik. I've dealt with cancer in my family, and my prayers are with you.

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Monday, May 24, 2004 8:05 PM

SCORPIUSTOTA

Ghoulman and his buddies here...

You remind of every single Liberal I've ever met at college. You run around looking for reasons to get upset and angry. Guess what? If ya look hard enough, you'll find them.

When I watch these shows, I watch them for entertainment value. I, as a conservative, can even manage to enjoy The West Wing, and you don't get a more propoganda show than that. The difference is, you run around in life looking for reason to be offended, instead of just living life. If you want to spend the little time you have on Earth mad at a show like Enterprise, that's fine, go ahead. Your wasting your time. I'm willing to bet even a Liberal has better things to do. I'm sure there's a white assed tit-mouse that needs saving somewhere. :)

In the very first thread I read on these boards, I am being driven away from them. I came to this site, thinking I would find a friendly site, like watchfarscape.com is. A site where people who all genuinely enjoy a show can come together and celebrate it. Instead, I find drivel like this. I was insulted as a conservative just reading your posts, and none of your pretentious, smug, and condescending remarks were even directed to me.

I know, I know, the fact that you have driven a conservative away from this community probably pleases you in some way. That's not the kind of life I choose to live. Many of my real life friends are liberals, and we manage to be friends, without insulting each other or stepping on each others toes. Perhaps you'll learn more about debate as you get older. It's not about insulting the other person, it's more about backing up your own points.

As to your post. I think you're reaching. I think you are reading into things in order to find something to be angry at. Given enough time and enough episodes, I could draw paralells to the current world environment and "Saved by the Bell". Sure, some of the plot lines strike home, but how relevant is a show that doesn't? How can you enjoy something you can't relate to your own life? I think your comments about T'pol, the Vulcans, the Xindi, and Archer are just twisting things to fit some agenda you have. I don't know what it is or why...

I guess what I'm saying in the end is, lets leave our political ambitions at the door, and use this site for what is intended for. A place for fans of Firefly to come together and celebrate that we are getting our ruttin movie. And series. And spinoff. and more movies.... (hey, I can dream, can't I?)

-Scorp

p.s. Insulting someone on the internet based on grammatical skills and thier English is usually considered rude and childish. In case you didn't realize, the whole world has access to the internet, and some people here may not hold English as their primary form of communication. We know Al Gore invented it, but the whole world gets to play in this sandbox. So please cover up your droppings before the kid from France steps in it. :)

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Tuesday, May 25, 2004 6:24 AM

*sigh*

Well, I've given up on this thread except to say I hope ANNIK is doing well and I want to apologise to her and anyone else who was interested in the subject of this thread.

The rest of you just wanted to attack me... prolly because I made a fool of you at some point which is easy enough. I love how those people insist I've attacked people, etc. Well, you can always cut and paste the proof.

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Tuesday, May 25, 2004 6:27 AM

*hmm. Oh well.

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Tuesday, May 25, 2004 6:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by maugwai:
I think some people are confused about the difference between an allegory and a message. I definitely think Enterprise has several messages. Any decent show does. And I happen to like Enterprise better the second half of this season. So I watch it. I don't really care if anybody else does. If you hate it, more power to you. Watch something else.

But I don't think it's an allegory. An allegory is a story in which every element symbolizes something in real life, and the story its self is a symbol of a real life issue. So if you do believe Enterprise is completely symbolic of Bush's regime, then I suppose you're right in calling it an allegory. But I don't think everything in the show has a real life reflection.

Personally, I think the show has been finding its way this season. It's about sacrifices, both moral and physical, that we make for the greater good, and whether or not it's worth the cost. And I think that's worth investigating.

"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

You know, before I go silent I wanted to point out that this was a great point. I personally do see it as an allegory of the Bush agenda, I'd call this thinly veiled propaganda. We could argue the fine points if this thread wasn't stuffed with attacks on me. Sorry.

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Tuesday, May 25, 2004 7:00 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

I’ve been silent on this point for the most part. Primarily because I couldn’t care less about this show. But I will say this one point: in order for something to be propaganda, it must be deliberate. And that is where your argument fails and why it seems so much like ideological pandering. Anyone can argue some allegory about something. You can say this is symbolic of this or that, and it may or may not be true, but it may not necessarily be the intention of the author. You are drawing some fairly specific conclusions about this show, and until you can demonstrate that the author or authors intended for these allegories to be drawn about a specific administration or cause then there is no way to imply any propaganda, no matter how thinly veiled.

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Tuesday, May 25, 2004 7:18 AM

NRKANGEL

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
*sigh*
The rest of you just wanted to attack me... prolly because I made a fool of you at some point which is easy enough. I love how those people insist I've attacked people, etc. Well, you can always cut and paste the proof.

Yo, Ghoul- You make good points and interesting arguments even if I don't always agree, but you've got to cut out the self-aggrandizing martyrdom, it's getting old.

In this case, I've been pretty much on your side since this thing started, but you're letting it get away with you, dude.

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Tuesday, May 25, 2004 9:16 AM

SOUTHERNSLAYER

Ghoulman's gone silent! great!! Does this mean we wont need to log on to find another of Ghoulmans pointless, egotistical and often offensive posts ever again?! Things are at last looking up!

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Tuesday, May 25, 2004 9:22 AM

CAPTAINCDC

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
*sigh*

Well, I've given up on this thread except to say I hope ANNIK is doing well and I want to apologise to her and anyone else who was interested in the subject of this thread.

The rest of you just wanted to attack me... prolly because I made a fool of you at some point which is easy enough. I love how those people insist I've attacked people, etc. Well, you can always cut and paste the proof.

You wanted proof of your "attacks" on people on this site? This is just one of your many posts, posted in the Help Save Enterprise thread started March 29, 2004:

Quote:
ENT is the worst show on TV. I gotta wonder about people who trash Firefly for being sexist while this crap show has that battered wife Vulcan whore mentality. The writers (if I can call them that, hmm, no guess not!) reveal thier sick mysoginist minds with every second show. Then they insult the entire Islamic world with thier racist allegories. Oh I could go on and on...

I do hope all my Firefly friends work hard to beat up every ENT fan they see. They deserve it.

Wishing violence on people that disagree with you about the show might be considered an attack.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Tuesday, May 25, 2004 9:34 AM

.. and I'm the one with the martyr complex?

Fanboy politics. Never fails.

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Tuesday, May 25, 2004 11:13 AM

SOULOFSERENITY

The Man They Call Soul...

Ghoulman...dude...get off your high horse, man. I really hope you're not expecting respect, 'cause you're certainly not deserving of it. The insulting really needs to stop. It's childish and for the most part undeserved. If people don't agree with your point of view, suck it up and accept that not everyone shares your high-strung political/conspiracy views.

You want to bash someone, then stick with bashing me. I'd rather be the only one recieving your unmitigated attacks than to have you chase away Firefly fans who come here expecting to find unjudging kindred souls.

Ease off, man. I await your sarcastic and severely biased return volley with open arms.

P.S. Annik, I now thank you more than ever for your help and I will be happy to send you some of my crap writing if you need an editorial challenge!

You are in my prayers!!!

______________________

But if your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you.

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Tuesday, May 25, 2004 12:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
*sigh*

Well, I've given up on this thread except to say I hope ANNIK is doing well and I want to apologise to her and anyone else who was interested in the subject of this thread.

The rest of you just wanted to attack me... prolly because I made a fool of you at some point which is easy enough. I love how those people insist I've attacked people, etc. Well, you can always cut and paste the proof.

Bye then

oh, i'm going to that special part of hell

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Tuesday, May 25, 2004 12:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
*hmm. Oh well.

yeah, ok, bye

oh, i'm going to that special part of hell

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Tuesday, May 25, 2004 12:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
.. and I'm the one with the martyr complex?

Fanboy politics. Never fails.

hasn't he gone yet

oh, i'm going to that special part of hell

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Tuesday, May 25, 2004 2:01 PM

OKAY gang ... let's all play nice a bit and get back on-discussion ... sort of.

I'm not going to scroll back and pull quotes, so I'm using paraphrasing only here ... but I think the underlying topic of propaganda inside entertainment is one that really *should* be addressed.

Someone in this thread mentioned that to be propaganda, the actions need to be deliberate. I think that is a *fair* statement, and it is fair to wonder whether the folks putting Enterprise together are doing what they do deliberately ... at a guess, I'd say they're not doing it deliberately.

(And I'm speaking as someone with several years in the world of propa--ooops, I mean, PR.).

But ... here's where things get interesting: when our entertainment mirrors the 'official line'.

I'm of the opinion that a sign of really effective propaganda is when the key messages of the propaganda *propagates* itself through the public realm.

(To wit: our kids almost never get to eat McDeathburgers, but wow, can they ever sing that commercial jingle ba-da-ba-ba-ba well!

So guess what they beg for?)

To take us away from our day-to-day lives (and attempting to keep this from returning to personal slinging at one another), let's look at ancient Rome.

Roman men had wives to bear them heirs. They had mistresses for entertainment and conversation. It was perfectly acceptable for a mistress to be well educated and thus able to communicate smartly with the men around her. A respectable wife, OTOH, was forbidden this sort of thing. (Sorry, no citations ... I lent my Roman history books out and they haven't come back yet ... tho' it's probably easy to follow up on this example for those who are determined!

)

Anyhow ... back to the main point. "Everyone knew" that Roman matrons were stupid and uninteresting. The fact that the Romans had deliberately built their society to be that way didn't seem to register on them at all.

Back to us in contemporary times ... how many things in our day-to-day lives do we accept on the basis that "everyone knows" something? How often does what "everyone knows" stand up to scrutiny?

I think that each of us in our respective countries can think of recent historical examples of this type of thinking: particularly related to civil rights, women's rights, freedom of religious expression, etc.

I don't claim to have any answers here, but I think it is important to encourage ourselves and our children to learn to view the infotainment we receive with a critical eye. From what I observe, critical thought is rarely an instinctual process; most people I consider critical thinkers were coached or instructed in the process of critical thinking.

And, BTW, critical thinking does not simply mean being 'critical' or negative towards everything around you. It means using your five senses to look at a wide variety of perspectives, weighing those perspectives, and determining meaning beyond the surface packaging we are usually presented with.

So ... the reason a show like Firefly probably resonates with so many of us (beyond the pure and lovely entertainment of it) is that Firefly promotes personal responsibility and critical thought. Mal and his gang don't always work outside the law; however, they're quite prepared to ignore stupid laws that are stupid for law's sake.

I could go on here, but I won't. I'd love to see some further discussion on this underlying issue, but I'm thinking perhaps we should start a new thread on it. Any takers?

Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.

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Tuesday, May 25, 2004 2:17 PM

I'll take that bet.

The problem is that anything that makes one Think Critically tends to get crapped on by the masses. "Dude, Firefly is stoopid," I'll often read or hear. "Sci-Fi and cows?! U R dum!"

We, the Critical Thinkers, are in the minority. Or at least, that's the way it feels to ME. Clever, thought provoking TV or film is low-rated, and makes little money, while the top-rated TV shows and movies are such clever, intellectual fare as "American Idol," and "Four Explosions and a CGI Funeral."

We, the educated, can never hope to take American Culture back, because we'd have to stop too often and explain things to those left behind.

But we can URGE people in a certain direction: "I'm not driving you to McDonald's; how about Subway?" or, "Hey, there's this new movie called 'Serenity' coming out, and it's AWESOME."

I maintain that "Pulp Fiction" was slightly more intellectual entertainment, because you had to think about it, and once the Smart Folks explained it, it DID find a way into popular culture. Same with Buffy, or ... I dunno, Aspirin.

Unfortunately, "Enterprise" pays off right now, in the millions, to the Corporate Whores of the world. So we're screwed.

But thanks for the very, very good argument. Only one out of every 50 people I meet can even comprehend Critical Thinking, so maybe that's another reason to just try to lead by example. I dunno.

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Tuesday, May 25, 2004 4:11 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I sometimes wonder if American acceptance of cr*p is due to an unstated admiration for ignorance. Somehow Americans equate ignorance with wisdom, rather than trashy boorishness. And it is considered better to be an ignorant if trashy common man than an educated uncommon one.

"I don't know much about art, but I know what I like."

Bone-headed thinking, or honest and sincere?

I think at one time some people did live in a society where the honesty and reliability of neighbors, and the stark necessities of life, were real forces. It didn't take much learning to evaluate people and things in that scheme. Anyone who wasn't plain-spoken about the simple necessities of life was too clever, and suspect. And ignorance and honesty were melded into a precept.

But those days are long, long gone, if they ever did exist on a large scale.

So I think what we have is a shared myth whereby people keep themselves ignorant, and are easily manipulated by images.

I think it is preferable to be wise in the world, but simple in response. But that idea hasn't caught on yet.

While I'm not religious, this sums it up for me:
Be ye wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

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Tuesday, May 25, 2004 5:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I sometimes wonder if American acceptance of cr*p is due to an unstated admiration for ignorance. Somehow Americans equate ignorance with wisdom, rather than trashy boorishness. And it is considered better to be an ignorant if trashy common man than an educated uncommon one.
(snip)

Heh heh ... this explains why "A Canticle for Leibowitz" was set in the US.

Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.

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Wednesday, May 26, 2004 1:22 PM

"I don't know much about art, but I know what I like."

My actual argument is below (XOXO), but I wanted to touch on this quote, cuz it's a whole other can of worms: to "know" something about art is to admire the technical achievement, the subtleties, to be a scholar of it.

Art is not merely pictures hanging on a museum wall-- I'll watch a film like "2001" or "The Sixth Sense" and admire the subtleties, the nuances, the use of color, of camera angles to set mood, of the way the director places objects or people in a scene. This is because I love the art form, but also because I'm a huge nerd. Let's focus on the former.

A film like, say, "Van Helsing" has none of these things. The camera cuts for no reason, the costumes were designed by retarded chimpanzees, and character development is replaced with Stuff Blowing Up. So I told the nerd in me to take a damn nap, and I enjoyed the movie. I know what I like.

Most of America, it would seem, knows what it likes, too. But they don't appreciate the art, so if something with Critical Thinking, or some actual Thought, comes out, they go, "Huh?" and think they don't like it, because they never bothered to think about it. If that makes sense.

(XOXO) -- My actual point, that I'm working toward, however, is I disagree about it being Admiration of Ignorance. What it is, is Actual Ignorance. That, coupled with an entertainment industry focussing on the bottom line. They've only recently discovered (well, TV has only recently discovered) that if they pander to our most basic voyeuristic desires, they will have the #1 show on TV and make billions of dollars.

It is our responsibility to NOT watch "The Simple Life," to NOT watch "Joe Millionaire," and demand something that makes us think. Because THOSE tv shows will still be talked about in 5 years (as 'Firefly' will be), while in 5 years, no one will ever remember "Joe Millionaire" ever existed.

THAT, to me, is what art is about. And a tremendous number of Americans are uneducated as to what Intelligence looks like. And a tremendous number of Entertainment Execs don't give a f

.

-Qs

p.s. What the frag is "A Canticle for Leibowitz?!"

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Wednesday, May 26, 2004 1:31 PM

Feh. The short version of my arguement-- well, actually, an ALTERNATIVE to my arguement, is just simply this:

Some people are gonna watch dumb shows, and go see dumb movies. That is their right, and we can't change them; they can only change themselves.

It is OUR (Your?) job to go see/seek the intelligent art, film, television, literature... because THAT is what moves the medium along, adds to the art form, and has a lasting effect on both the medium itself, and pop culture. I saw people dancing like "Starsky & Hutch" the week after it came out, but now we've all already forgotten about it-- it's no longer funny, or timely.

Do you remmber Indiana Jones running from that boulder? THAT is timeless... because even though the story didn't take a Rhodes Scholar to understand, the makers told it in an intelligent way that respected our intelligence. Maybe not everyone got it when it came out ("Pulp Fiction," "Fight Club") ... but these, like Firefly, are what We Must Tell Others About... and then just hope for the best.

I wish I could write a post that was shorter than eighty paragraphs.

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Wednesday, May 26, 2004 1:36 PM

See, now my brain is working. You bastards.

The above post, 2nd paragraph: I didn't mean, SEE bad movies/TV/whatever. We're all guilty of that. I admitted to seeing "Van Helsing" in the post before that.

I meant, like, ENJOY. See repeatedly. I thought "A.I" was freakin' TERRIBLE, but people bought that DVD because they really enjoyed it, not noticing the plot holes, character inconsistencies, or sheer illogic. I was amused by "Van Helsing" and all, but I cannot think of a reason I'd ever watch it again. Conversely, I'll watch Indiana Jones until the day I die.

Anyway, nothing we can do about those people. Except recommend 'Firefly.' I'm really done typing now.

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Wednesday, May 26, 2004 2:22 PM

GHOLA

Quote:
Originally posted by Quicksand:
I'll take that bet.

The problem is that anything that makes one Think Critically tends to get crapped on by the masses. "Dude, Firefly is stoopid," I'll often read or hear. "Sci-Fi and cows?! U R dum!"

We, the Critical Thinkers, are in the minority. Or at least, that's the way it feels to ME. Clever, thought provoking TV or film is low-rated, and makes little money, while the top-rated TV shows and movies are such clever, intellectual fare as "American Idol," and "Four Explosions and a CGI Funeral."

We, the educated, can never hope to take American Culture back, because we'd have to stop too often and explain things to those left behind.

But we can URGE people in a certain direction: "I'm not driving you to McDonald's; how about Subway?" or, "Hey, there's this new movie called 'Serenity' coming out, and it's AWESOME."

I maintain that "Pulp Fiction" was slightly more intellectual entertainment, because you had to think about it, and once the Smart Folks explained it, it DID find a way into popular culture. Same with Buffy, or ... I dunno, Aspirin.

Unfortunately, "Enterprise" pays off right now, in the millions, to the Corporate Whores of the world. So we're screwed.

But thanks for the very, very good argument. Only one out of every 50 people I meet can even comprehend Critical Thinking, so maybe that's another reason to just try to lead by example. I dunno.

No offense or anything but I read that post as pure elitism. Particularly this comment "We, the educated, can never hope to take American Culture back, because we'd have to stop too often and explain things to those left behind.". I think it's quite arrogant to assume that we are the gifted few with the ability to use "Critical Thinking" where as the majority of America the ones that watch crappy reality TV are obviously stupid. I'm sure that are many Ivy League graduates who would list a reality show as one of their favorite TV shows. In fact if movies like Van Helsing or TV shows like Enterprise make a ton of money I don't mind that some people like them there are some reality shows (but not all) that I do absolutely hate (like "The Swan") but that's because I have problems with the way they treat real people. What's art and what isn't is purely in the eye of the beholder and if I oneday find that there's nothing I care to watch anymore I'll stop watching TV and movies.

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Wednesday, May 26, 2004 5:11 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I hate to sound like "The Life of Brian" ("Blessed are the cheesemakers." "The CHEESEMAKERS?" "Well, not Cheesemakers exactly, but men of Commerce ...")

I didn't mean to be taken quite literally by the quote "I don't know much about art, but I know what I like." ... not art specifically ...

It was highlighting an attitude where people who haven't studied a subject feel free to trivialize it, worse ignore it, shut their brains off, stick their heads in the sand, because for them there is something honest about not liking it and therefore dismissing it. It is, in my opinion, a reverence for ignorance.

Of course everyone has their own likes and dislikes. Liking something just because it's fun is great. And important serious meaningful stuff can be no fun at all.

But to dismiss something vital from your world that you are ignorant about just because you don't like it, well ... I think it's a misguided American truism.

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Wednesday, May 26, 2004 5:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Quicksand:

p.s. What the frag is "A Canticle for Leibowitz?!"

The book came out in 1960, by Walter M. Miller, Jr. I recently came across the original 20-something page short story that the first third of the book is based on, originally published in 1955 as "The First Canticle".

It's a marvelous post-apocalyptic story, opening in a future Utah, near a monastary of St. Liebowicz. In this future, average folks have destroyed books and learning as being part of what brought the atomic horror on their heads ... the monastery keeps secret knowledge hidden within it (books, blueprints, technical manuals). It is considered a 'good' thing to be a Simpleton ... in the world-at-large, learning and books are considered highly dangerous.

You can probably find both versions of the story (short or book-length) in a second-hand book shop quite easily ... I'd say this is one of the great pieces of 1950s SF.

Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.

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Wednesday, May 26, 2004 5:49 PM

GUNHAND

Well I don't like Star Trek but that's just a matter of personal choice and I go out of my way not to dump on other people's likes and dislikes. So the whole premise of this thread is something I can't go along with.

Also I don't talk politics in public so I'll ride right on past that stuff, again it's all personal choice and all that, see above. Besides all politics are wrong in a subjective sense, hence pointless. Yeah that was humor, people should use it more.

The one thing that I can agree with 110% on this whole thing here is that A Canticle for Leibowitz is a great book and if y'all haven't read it ya probably should.

That's all.

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

My eerie-ass website:
http://gunhandsfirefly.homestead.com/Index.html

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Thursday, May 27, 2004 2:23 PM

Quote:
No offense or anything but I read that post as pure elitism.

I'm not offended, cuz I like a good arguement.

I wasn't saying (though I maybe, er, accidentally implied) that I'm better than people who watch that stuff because "they are dumb and I am smart." All sorts of people watch all sorts of things, and besides, there are plenty of people who are smarter than me... just none of them work for the Fox Network, is all.

I didn't mean to disrespect anyone for watching, say, Jerry Springer and loving it. But I'm disrespecing Jerry Springer because, DAMMIT man, you have this huge opportunity to make people think, to affect peoples LIVES... and you're showing me KKK moms. I mean, whatthefuh?

*I* feel disrespected when someone tells me Firefly is stupid because it has cows and a gas-powered 4-wheeler. To the people who make those arguments: How do we teach them anything, unless we raise our standards?

I'm not saying we should ban Jerry, but I would like to increase the number of shows that make me think to more than, say, 3.

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Thursday, May 27, 2004 2:49 PM

MAUGWAI

Quote:
Originally posted by Quicksand:

I didn't mean to disrespect anyone for watching, say, Jerry Springer and loving it. But I'm disrespecing Jerry Springer because, DAMMIT man, you have this huge opportunity to make people think, to affect peoples LIVES... and you're showing me KKK moms. I mean, whatthefuh?

*I* feel disrespected when someone tells me Firefly is stupid because it has cows and a gas-powered 4-wheeler. To the people who make those arguments: How do we teach them anything, unless we raise our standards?

I'm not saying we should ban Jerry, but I would like to increase the number of shows that make me think to more than, say, 3.

Then I guess it would really sadden you to know that Jerry Springer is HUGE in Europe. That's one of the reasons everybody hates Americans.

But I like what you said about raising our standards. As far as Enterprise goes, I think the writers realized their own shortcomings and raised their own standards this year. Several people have mentioned the improvements in the show over the season. Although I enjoyed the many episodes that seemed to revolve around Trip's bare chest, I am glad the show got some beefing up. But I am highly devoted to critical thinking, and I like Enterprise. Not every smart person is going to like the same thing.

But my point about raising standards is this. I spend all day with teenagers, most of whom have been told repeatedly how dumb they are. So they act dumb. They talk dumb. They talk about how dumb they are, and joke about how dumb the other people in the class are. You should see what happens when you tell them they're smart and mean it. They start acting smart - every single one of them. They just need someone to tell them they can do it, and they comply. So all those people who talk about kids today being stupid are full of crap. Kids today are as smart as they ever were. We just have to tell them they are.

So if we feed the public reality TV and tell them it's good, that's what they watch. If we feed them good TV and let them watch it, they will. Look at Buffy. It had a huge audience because it was considered cool to watch Buffy. We rise to the standards we are given.

"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

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Monday, September 27, 2004 9:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
... oh and I don't want to sound like I'm dumping on those who say 'it's improving' but FRELL! ... do you normally wait through years of crap to get to the good? Has any good come yet? Will it?

Honestly. What sort of bizarre logic is that?

And for the love of mudville ... realize that this sort of TV (on various levels) keeps shows like Firefly off the air. After all... if the viewing SciFi fans will accept such rubbish than why the frell would a network pay for a high class production like Firefly? Or Angel? Or... are ya seeing a pattern here boys and girls?

*bump*

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Monday, September 27, 2004 10:25 AM

SOUTHERNSLAYER

LOL. Well thats pathetic... bumping your own thread. Whats even worse though is that you are simply just trying to cause trouble. It's not clever Ghoulman and its not needed.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Monday, September 27, 2004 10:29 AM