Rewriting Shindig by DMI

Having watched the series last weekend again, these comments about victimization of women remind me of something. In OoG, Inara flashback informs Mal she supported Unification, and in HoG she explains the whores as not being in the Guild (another word for Union, or Alliance). Mal says "So they're Independents" and states that payment won't be required - and Inara starts that purely business arrangement blather.
Mal will help them once he has identified with them as independents.

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Thursday, January 29, 2009 9:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Having watched the series last weekend again, these comments about victimization of women remind me of something. In OoG, Inara flashback informs Mal she supported Unification, and in HoG she explains the whores as not being in the Guild (another word for Union, or Alliance). Mal says "So they're Independents" and states that payment won't be required - and Inara starts that purely business arrangement blather.
Mal will help them once he has identified with them as independents.

One flaw: Guild does not equal Alliance. They supported the Alliance in the war, and the Alliance extends its legal protection, but they are very much separate entities. Everything else is an assumption.

And the "independent" comment was a word play. Independent as in "not Guild-affiliated", not as in the political position, but Mal alludes to the similarity of attitudes. The not paying thing, though, I would very very much class under Mal wanting to do Inara a favor, which becomes plain when she dismisses his offer. His reaction to that is pretty tell-tale, especially since he repeats her words later in front of Nandi to express his irritation. I think he would have helped Guild-affiliated Companions out for free, as well, if it was because Inara asked him and they somehow couldn't afford to pay.

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Saturday, January 31, 2009 3:44 PM

I know this thread already fell off the front page, but I was just thinking of something I think I might have liked to have seen in this episode.

What if Inara had slapped Atherton instead of Mal punching him? And then Atherton challenged Mal, ALSO with a slap? Seems to me, if Atherton is as competent as he is supposed to be in a duel, he wouldn't be waiting for other people to challenge him first. Plus it lets Inara have a bit more strength, and maybe then instead of being forced back to Atherton's estate to finish out her contract, maybe she might get put up in that hotel also (different room, of course).

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Wednesday, February 4, 2009 11:23 AM

DMI

Expired, forgotten, spoiled rotten.

I understand the desire to get away from Mal saving the damsel in distress and let Inara stand up for herself but I just can't see that there is anyway she would slap a client who wasn't out right violating her rights in some way. Ath's general assholery (which she must have been aware of before taking him on as a client) and tight grip on her arm don't seem to me to be enough for her to act.
-e

A blog on the struggles of an unpublished writer: http://www.blogiversity.org/blogs/dmi/default.aspx

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Wednesday, February 4, 2009 12:35 PM

You're probably right, she probably was aware of how Atherton acts. Perhaps the only reason she answered his wave at all is because of the invite he extended to the party, which would be a good place to expand her client base. His behaviour must not have been bad enough in the past for her to bother taking action against him, and to feign civility in light of the business prospect side of it.

But. I may be uncertain about just how good or evil or corporate the Guild is. One thing is made very clear, however; they don't tolerate the abuse of any of the sisters by clients (they wouldn't attract many disciples if they did!), and I don't imagine that a companion is expected to fulfill a contract with a client when they're sensing danger from them. Inara would be trained to recognize warning signs, and with how Atherton was acting... Practically klaxons, really.

Maybe she should have just refused to leave with him. She was part of the altercation in a sense, the rules of that society might prohibit her from running off as much as they did Mal. Or maybe the guild has some contingency plan to protect their companions from retaliation, and she got swept off somewhere secret, then emerged to see how the duel turned out.

I'm still wondering about her offer to Atherton, before Mal turns the tables. From one perspective, it is a very selfless, heroic thing for her to do, and I've heard a few people say that Inara would probably have made the same offer even if it wasn't Mal that Atherton was about to eviscerate. That seems in character to me, and from that angle is feminist positive. On the other hand, it IS Mal, and it could be construed as Inara "sacrificing herself for her beloved," which probably is NOT feminist positive.

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Thursday, February 5, 2009 12:02 AM

IMNOTHERE

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
You're probably right, she probably was aware of how Atherton acts.

Why would she be? They've probably had a history of elegant assignations at balls, concerts and restaurants at which Atherton has been the perfect gentleman and zero (0) space cowboys turn up and try to steal his bird.

His possessive attitude only surfaces when he is faced with a threat - i.e. Mal.

Now, if the guy had any long-term relationship then his little "being an asshole" problem would surface sooner or later, but Inara just flies in for a perfect date and flies out again.

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Thursday, February 5, 2009 4:49 AM

Maybe, but I also get the feeling that this wasn't the first time Atherton asked her to stay as his personal companion.

Granted, she probably gets asked that a lot, like in the pilot episode, but unlike in the pilot episode where she just kind of inwardly sighs and smiles prettily, she seemed genuinely uncomfortable with Atherton's offer. Maybe he's been a little too persistent, maybe she senses something about him that makes her not want to stick around for a long term engagement, maybe it's just me, but that's my impression.

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Thursday, February 5, 2009 7:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Maybe, but I also get the feeling that this wasn't the first time Atherton asked her to stay as his personal companion.

Granted, she probably gets asked that a lot, like in the pilot episode, but unlike in the pilot episode where she just kind of inwardly sighs and smiles prettily, she seemed genuinely uncomfortable with Atherton's offer. Maybe he's been a little too persistent, maybe she senses something about him that makes her not want to stick around for a long term engagement, maybe it's just me, but that's my impression.

I've often considered those "uncomfortable" moments to be when a client asks her to be his "personal companion" and not "wife" - like a longer hire, but no marriage.
When she now lives with a man who would gladly marry her. Non-marriage offers are quite tedious, yet marriaqge is not part of a Companion's life.
JMO.

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Thursday, February 5, 2009 7:31 PM

Perhaps, but I don't think she was so uncomfortable or even a little unnerved when the young man in the pilot asked her to stay. On the surface she's polite and regretful with her smile that immediately ends her client's further inquiries, and underneath she's a little tired. With Atherton I got the impression she was genuinely wary.

As I remember it, he asks her, and she freezes for a second before trying to pull that same smile. And a few lines later, she says "it's not a no, either." I think there's no way she would ever have considered staying with Atherton even if he wasn't a jerk, she likes her independence too much. So why tell him any different? Politeness? She doesn't bother to soothe any egos in the pilot episode. So it seems to me more like she doesn't want to confront Atherton about it, or even discuss it. She's trying to avoid giving him an answer. Why? I can't think of any other reason except that Atherton worries her somehow.

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Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Chances are, Banning already knows what it feels like to be on the receiving end. You have to learn that stuff somewhere. The only lesson this will teach her is to be slightly less visible about where she lashes out and to despise Murphy. But what he does is really only one more spin in a circle of disrespect. He's not teaching her anything but to do exactly as she has been doing: use humiliation to solve a problem.

He's not much better than her in that regard, only he'd decided that Kaylee gets to receive his protection. He's nice to guests, so what. Anyone he has decided is useless is still fair game.

You seem to be taking a rather compassionate stance towards Banning in this thread. :) Now, I'd like to think I'm usually pretty attuned to women undergoing any form of abuse, but in Banning's case, I honestly don't see her having suffered from any (in her life, I mean). Rather, way I figure this, Banning is the epitome of a decadent society, filled with folks too rich to be doing anything useful, and too bored as a result of it. The dynamic of Dangerous Liaisons leaps to mind. Banning, bored stiff, is just being mean to Kaylee, pretty much because she's a welcome diversion, really. Banning doesn't need new friends: she's got plenty of those. What she does need, however, is an escape from the unbearable lightness of her daily life. And she does it typical Freudian Überdeckung-style: she seeks to re-affirm the value of the emptiness of her spoiled-rotten existence by putting down Kaylee.

Now, Murphy could have been nicer, for certain. But what he does, really, is basically rubbing Mal's words in her face: "The lie of it." (Not that he heard Mal say so, per se, but his acting out is for our benefit: if Ath didn't give it away, we need to understand that Inara's high society comes crumbling down when you scrape off that thin layer of veneer).

Now, I admit, Banning's daddy having told Murphy that it takes but the space of a schoolboy's wink to get her out of her clothes is a bit creepy, really, One can only imagine what kind of twisted society these rich folks live in. So, while I don't see Banning having undergone any 'classical' forms of abuse, one could, of course, argue that growing up in such a world is perhaps the greatest form of abuse of them all. But, if so, then not one the Banning girl suffered from exclusively, but rather their society at large.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

And the "independent" comment was a word play. Independent as in "not Guild-affiliated", not as in the political position, but Mal alludes to the similarity of attitudes. The not paying thing, though, I would very very much class under Mal wanting to do Inara a favor, which becomes plain when she dismisses his offer. His reaction to that is pretty tell-tale, especially since he repeats her words later in front of Nandi to express his irritation. I think he would have helped Guild-affiliated Companions out for free, as well, if it was because Inara asked him and they somehow couldn't afford to pay.

I agree that the "Independent" comment was just word play: Mal is not so daft as to equate these working girls with those who fought on the losing side of the war (still not convinced it was the wrong one).

I say it's still a bit of a double whammy, though. Mal wants to do Inara a favor, yes; but, at the same time, it's also a dig at her profession, in that by supporting whores he shoves it in Inara's face, once more, that he basically respects whores more than he does the whole Companion business. I reckon because whores, in Mal's eyes, don't live "The lie of it." Mal respects that. Also, whores are 'little people', again, in Mal's eyes, so I say he naturally feels he's on the same boat with them, as it were.

As to why Inara rejected his offer (which was clearly painful for Mal), I dunno. Professional pride, I think, certainly played into it: she simply doesn't want him to think he's doing a Companion a favor by helping out whores. Could also be she picked up on Mal's not-so-covert dig at her profession.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Wednesday, February 11, 2009 10:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:

I say it's still a bit of a double whammy, though. Mal wants to do Inara a favor, yes; but, at the same time, it's also a dig at her profession, in that by supporting whores he shoves it in Inara's face, once more, that he basically respects whores more than he does the whole Companion business. I reckon because whores, in Mal's eyes, don't live "The lie of it." Mal respects that. Also, whores are 'little people', again, in Mal's eyes, so I say he naturally feels he's on the same boat with them, as it were.

There was a tiny bit of a dig in there, yes, but not as overt or strong as the language you use implies, simply because of Mal's reaction to Inara's rejection of his offer. If he had been in anything resembling a playfully antagosistic mood about their ongoing differences, her rejection wouldn't have hit him the way it does, because he'd be able to connect it to a reaction to his own words.

I really think, for once, Mal wasn't being preachy about Inara's profession.

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As to why Inara rejected his offer (which was clearly painful for Mal), I dunno. Professional pride, I think, certainly played into it: she simply doesn't want him to think he's doing a Companion a favor by helping out whores. Could also be she picked up on Mal's not-so-covert dig at her profession.

Actually, and I think this is very obviously alluded to later in the episode, Inara is fighting the growing ties between them. He wants to do something life threatening, something heroic for her (flash back to Shindig, too) and it's just a bit too fraught with implications for Inara, who has reasons to doubt how well the two of them would actually do together.

That's why it hurts Mal. He wants to do INARA a favor (a big one) and she says no. I don't want favors from you. Don't get your hopes up. That's what really hurts. They both understand each other perfectly in that scene, and it's a pretty blatant moment there.

Oh Mal, you silly thing. If only your brain could connect the insults to her doubts about you. You just wanna pet him, right?

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Wednesday, February 11, 2009 10:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
You seem to be taking a rather compassionate stance towards Banning in this thread. :)

I am. :) I think people spend too much time conflating her behavior with her wealth, when it could easily have been a party on some backwater dirt ball, with the queen bee there trying to put down Kaylee. Calling her a spoiled rich girl is SUCH a lazy response.

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Now, I'd like to think I'm usually pretty attuned to women undergoing any form of abuse, but in Banning's case, I honestly don't see her having suffered from any (in her life, I mean).

I wasn't talking about physical abuse.

I was talking about emotional neglect, something that can happen at any social sphere.

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Rather, way I figure this, Banning is the epitome of a decadent society, filled with folks too rich to be doing anything useful, and too bored as a result of it.

Then why isn't the old guy useless? Why are not ALL the old guys useless?

It'skind of silly to pretend that they are all useless and unethical just because they are rich. We see one group of girls who could have sprung from any highschool, any playground. That has nothing to do with money and everything with being young and insecure.

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The dynamic of Dangerous Liaisons leaps to mind.

And even in that book/movie, not everyone who is rich (which is everyone) is evil and useless. Only the two protagonists. That's not a social commentary but a look at two people who react to their life in this particular way.

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What she does need, however, is an escape from the unbearable lightness of her daily life. And she does it typical Freudian Überdeckung-style: she seeks to re-affirm the value of the emptiness of her spoiled-rotten existence by putting down Kaylee.

I agree about trying to affirm the value of her life, but not because of an unbearable lightness brought on by wealth but an emotional emptiness brought on by one or two sucky parents.

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Now, Murphy could have been nicer, for certain. But what he does, really, is basically rubbing Mal's words in her face: "The lie of it."

And we know absolutely nothing about Murphy that suggests he is living a meaningful life, so he seems like quite a hypocrite. Plus, he was not rubbing in anything about the meaning of her life, he was rubbing in something to do with her private sexual behavior, basically humiliating her about something that has little to do with her wealthy lifestyle. Inconsistent.

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(Not that he heard Mal say so, per se, but his acting out is for our benefit: if Ath didn't give it away, we need to understand that Inara's high society comes crumbling down when you scrape off that thin layer of veneer).

Except the high society of Persephone isn't really Inara's high society. I bet the Sihnon folk would giggle on the floor if they saw them. I mean, really. This is Persephone, not the Core.

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One can only imagine what kind of twisted society these rich folks live in. So, while I don't see Banning having undergone any 'classical' forms of abuse, one could, of course, argue that growing up in such a world is perhaps the greatest form of abuse of them all. But, if so, then not one the Banning girl suffered from exclusively, but rather their society at large.

So you basically insist that it must be the entirety of her rich society that was tough to grow up in.

I'll disagree based on this being a rather simplistic condemnation of an entire society with little evidence to support it and focus more on her parents, specifically her father.

I guess that's where we differ, really. :)

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Wednesday, February 11, 2009 11:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

And the "independent" comment was a word play. Independent as in "not Guild-affiliated", not as in the political position, but Mal alludes to the similarity of attitudes. The not paying thing, though, I would very very much class under Mal wanting to do Inara a favor, which becomes plain when she dismisses his offer. His reaction to that is pretty tell-tale, especially since he repeats her words later in front of Nandi to express his irritation. I think he would have helped Guild-affiliated Companions out for free, as well, if it was because Inara asked him and they somehow couldn't afford to pay.

I agree that the "Independent" comment was just word play: Mal is not so daft as to equate these working girls with those who fought on the losing side of the war (still not convinced it was the wrong one).

I say it's still a bit of a double whammy, though. Mal wants to do Inara a favor, yes; but, at the same time, it's also a dig at her profession, in that by supporting whores he shoves it in Inara's face, once more, that he basically respects whores more than he does the whole Companion business. I reckon because whores, in Mal's eyes, don't live "The lie of it." Mal respects that. Also, whores are 'little people', again, in Mal's eyes, so I say he naturally feels he's on the same boat with them, as it were.

As to why Inara rejected his offer (which was clearly painful for Mal), I dunno. Professional pride, I think, certainly played into it: she simply doesn't want him to think he's doing a Companion a favor by helping out whores. Could also be she picked up on Mal's not-so-covert dig at her profession.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

I did not intend to imply Mal equated Nandi's whores with browncoats. But that he admired and supported the SPIRIT of the non-union or non-Alliance whores, perhaps.

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Wednesday, February 11, 2009 11:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Then why isn't the old guy useless? Why are not ALL the old guys useless?

Who's to say he isn't? :) Just because we may sympathize with him, in the moment, because of putting Banning in her place in favor of Kaylee, doesn't mean he isn't part of the same clique. I reckon he is.

As for hypocracy, I imagine they're all hypocrites to a degree, and that, purely amongst themselves, not a very great effort is made to keep up the facade. A conceited jerk like Atherton is still honest enough to come out and say all of them just wish Inara were in their bed. And even Sir Harrow's "You're mistaken, Sir. I'm an honest man." routine lasts but a mere few seconds: he still wants to move some property off-world, discretely, and readily comes about.

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The dynamic of Dangerous Liaisons leaps to mind.

And even in that book/movie, not everyone who is rich (which is everyone) is evil and useless. Only the two protagonists. That's not a social commentary but a look at two people who react to their life in this particular way.

And, in Shindig, not every girl is like Banning, either. Her girlfriends play along a bit -- but mostly, I reckon, because she has the higher standing, and they're not gonna side with a total unknown, obviously lower-class, girl, against Banning. But the way they giggle, after Banning has been humiliated, suggests they certainly weren't horribly offended seeing Banning taken down a peg or two.

Yes, in Dangerous Liaisons not everyone who is rich (which is everyone) is evil and useless. Still, being independently wealthy seems almost like a conditio sine qua non for such a playground. After all, regular folks have to work, and have exactly no time for games. And I just happen to think Banning fits the 'bored rich girl' profile perfectly. She's not really evil, btw: just bored out of her skull.

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I wasn't talking about physical abuse.

I was talking about emotional neglect, something that can happen at any social sphere.

'Cept that Banning isn't from any social sphere, but a very rich one. The emotional neglect -- which I'm sure she endured -- plays right into the whole 'utter boredom' thingy: mom & daddy being way too busy being important to pay much attention to their kids, yet endowed with enough cashey money to 'make up' for their absence by spoiling them rotten, is the perfect breeding ground for Banning's personality and behavior.

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Except the high society of Persephone isn't really Inara's high society.

Tell that to Inara. :) I'm sure she doesn't equate Persephone with Sihnon. Still, when she tells Mal, "I don't suppose you'd find it up the standards of your outings," she's certainly letting him know she thinks it's more her world than his.

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I bet the Sihnon folk would giggle on the floor if they saw them. I mean, really.

I'm fair certain they would. The Persephone nobility pales in comparision to, say, the circles the Tams go round in. But I guess that just strengthens the hypocracy of their little world. That layer of veneer really is very, very thin. I mean, I doubt you'd see Gabriel Tam check his gun at the door. :) You think that's a commetary on the Persephone society?

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So you basically insist that it must be the entirety of her rich society that was tough to grow up in.

Well, I wasn't insisting, really, but I'm sure having to cope with the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune isn't always easy, and certainly can mess up a kid or two. I think, for instance, Kaylee's life was easier: less rich, of course (money-wise), but also a lot less complicated.

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I'll disagree based on this being a rather simplistic condemnation of an entire society with little evidence to support it and focus more on her parents, specifically her father.

Funny how you reckon that, as I see it the exact opposite way: I see no specific evidence to suggest Banning had abusive/bad parents, but instead see a rather sizeable social commentary on the Persephone nobility. In fact, I'd say Shindig was written with that exact commentary in mind. In everything they do, we see the hypocracy of their high society in action. One could perhaps even say it's a bit overdone: everything is geared towards Mal's notion of "The lie of it." Atherthon, could be argued, is just a mite too villainy, Banning a tad too bratty and spoiled, Kaylee perchance portrayed a wee too common, etc. But ultimately the point came across: Inara's "These people like me, and I like them." bubble needed bursting; and by the end of Shindig, it has.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:14 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
As to why Inara rejected his offer (which was clearly painful for Mal)

Inara is fighting the growing ties between them.

She quite clearly is, which has always made me kind of confused when I've seen people talk about how Mal 'betrayed' her in Heart of Gold. She's very cold to him about their relationship, quite deliberately, and shortly thereafter a gorgeous, tough woman gives him some very warm attention. He has feelings for Inara, but there's nothing really established between them. What would most people have done? He's still concerned about her reaction, and she shows nothing of the pain she's feeling, channeling it into a snark and then finding a place to cry. I always found her behavior rather immature, while the general opinion I've seen is that Mal was selfish and insensitive. He wasn't the one trained to pick up on the subtlest hints to mood. He knows only what he hears. Inara was driving him away, and then she was so hurt she'd succeeded and so unsure what to do about it and the relationship in general that she left.

[/sig]

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:08 AM

Or, the OTHER explanation that I'm liking better the more I think on it. Gives her a very good reason to keep pushing him away, even though, in that scene where she's crying, she obviously wishes she didn't have to. Want to avoid potential spoilers here, but anyone who's read Better Days may know the theory I'm talking about.

I don't think Mal betrayed her so much as he betrayed himself, really. It's pretty obvious in a couple episodes that he'd like to pursue a relationship with her if she wanted it and he didn't have his own issues. The way Mal thinks, and his traditional upbringing (and I suspect he's a raging romantic underneath it all, I mean, just listen to some of the speeches he gives Inara, jeez!), I wouldn't be surprised if he thought of what he did as being unfaithful. "You're not bothered?" is kind of a guilty question, he thinks he's done something wrong.

Inara knows she has no claim on him, that's why I'm starting to agree that his indiscretion with Nandi isn't what she's crying about, but rather she's crying about the truth about their respective situations, how it can't work. What Mal did only made it more apparent.

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

I don't think Mal betrayed her so much as he betrayed himself, really. It's pretty obvious in a couple episodes that he'd like to pursue a relationship with her if she wanted it and he didn't have his own issues. The way Mal thinks, and his traditional upbringing (and I suspect he's a raging romantic underneath it all, I mean, just listen to some of the speeches he gives Inara, jeez!), I wouldn't be surprised if he thought of what he did as being unfaithful. "You're not bothered?" is kind of a guilty question, he thinks he's done something wrong.

Inara knows she has no claim on him, that's why I'm starting to agree that his indiscretion with Nandi isn't what she's crying about, but rather she's crying about the truth about their respective situations, how it can't work. What Mal did only made it more apparent.

As was written, "There are only two tragedies in life: one is not getting what one wants, and the other is getting it." I believe Inara is crying because of the latter: she got exactly what she wanted. She kept pushing Mal away, until one day she realized he really WAS away (in the arms of another woman).

Theirs was a strained dance: Mal continually insulting Inara's profession, as his more-or-less clumsly way of letting her know he cares for her (in that he wants better for her), vs. Inara carefully not letting Mal get too close, lest she might have to deal with her feelings for him. Nandi, as it were, tipped the balance. Mal, indeed, feels guilty. I would say not even for being unfaithful to Inara per se, so much as being unfaithful to their mutual ritual. Inara knows the dance has ended, and Mal knows he had a part in that. He knows he ruined -- in terms of unfaithfulness -- not a romantic relationship between them that was, but one that could have been. Whereupon Inara concludes it's time to make the breakage 'official', as it were, and decides to leave: with no possibilities left, in her mind, it seems the only sensible thing to do.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:47 AM

Or she was leaving because if they ever did get involved, Mal would be very hurt at the end of it because of her secrets... Which is the view I've kind of started to lean towards.

But I do agree she's chosen to push Mal away, and it turns out it wasn't something she wanted, but I still think she has a good reason for it. Besides the whole violent criminal/unacceptable partner thing, because she does seem to get a kick out of crime sometimes. :)

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
As to why Inara rejected his offer (which was clearly painful for Mal)

Inara is fighting the growing ties between them.

She quite clearly is, which has always made me kind of confused when I've seen people talk about how Mal 'betrayed' her in Heart of Gold. She's very cold to him about their relationship, quite deliberately, and shortly thereafter a gorgeous, tough woman gives him some very warm attention. He has feelings for Inara, but there's nothing really established between them. What would most people have done? He's still concerned about her reaction, and she shows nothing of the pain she's feeling, channeling it into a snark and then finding a place to cry. I always found her behavior rather immature, while the general opinion I've seen is that Mal was selfish and insensitive. He wasn't the one trained to pick up on the subtlest hints to mood. He knows only what he hears. Inara was driving him away, and then she was so hurt she'd succeeded and so unsure what to do about it and the relationship in general that she left.

Yeah, but you can't put all of this on Inara. If you call her immature, you have to call Mal... uh, twice as immature? He has this weird schism in his head about Inara and her job, saying he respects one but not the other. So either he thinks she is a complete moron who can't see the (supposed) hypocrisy she's living, or he's in a strange world where a person's whole-hearted choices have nothing to do with who they are. Both would make you question just how Mal understands love. Plus, he's making it very clear that his "respect" for her is not really worth being actually treated with respect. He certainly enjoys humiliating her in front of others and can never just shuttup about her job. It's like the Inara in his head is the madonna and her job is the whore. Cannot compute.

Sure, WE know his real feelings, and there are glimpses about him accepting her job occasionally, but there is really no reason for Inara to assume that this thing between them would end in anything but painful catastrophe.

I find it kind of hypocritical to fault Inara for not falling into Mal's arms whenever he deigns to show a softer side, when Mal isn't really making any effort himself, save for rare moments of wanting to play her hero or being actually faced with the potential for loss. Heroics mean very little in terms of a relationship surviving. Everyday respect does.

Inara chooses herself over some potentially doomed fling with a guy who doesn't really know what he wants with her most of the time. For a time she thinks she can do that while staying on the ship she loves, but it turns out watching Mal move on hurts too much, so she logically decides to go.

I don't find that immature.

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:26 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Refusal to accept or confront your feelings is pretty immature. They both do that dance, I never said they didn't. In the context of their relationship they both acted like teenagers, only snarkier, most of the time. In the context of Heart of Gold, though, I really can't condemn Mal for his actions or feel much sympathy for Inara after they've been doing the old push-and-pull for all those months and she decides to shut him out so completely. I just can't. I never said she should fall into his arms, I actually think she shouldn't. I just think that, after all the time she spent acting like she wanted to, and vice-versa, their absolute refusal to discuss their own tension and perhaps why they shouldn't fall into each other's arms was a much less mature choice than constant snarking and then fleeing. I understand that it's entertainment and there's going to be some drama, but I actually think that a quiet conversation about how it wouldn't work out and why could have been pretty heartwrenching if it was done right.

[/sig]

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Refusal to accept or confront your feelings is pretty immature.

I think at this point Inara has. She just underestimates their impact. Her actions through the series are pretty consistent. She has one slip: kissing Mal in OMR. But she treats it as that, a slip.

There are plenty of situations where you have to confront your feelings privately, rather than making it a round-table discussion, and that's a perfectly rational way of dealing with them.

Quote:
In the context of Heart of Gold, though, I really can't condemn Mal for his actions or feel much sympathy for Inara after they've been doing the old push-and-pull for all those months and she decides to shut him out so completely. I just can't.

No one is saying you have to condemn Mal. He betrayed his own values, not Inara, since clearly he feels guilty but is pretty aware she has no actual claim on him.

He hasn't really made a sincere effort to show Inara his feelings, he'd rather escape into the arms of a less complicated woman. His good right, but then I can't feel much sympathy for him when Inara chooses to escape into the arms of a less complicated life.

It's as you say, equal opportunity retreat?

If Mal had spent any time thinking, he would have seen Inara's declaration coming a mile away, really. He hurts her, Inara hits back and then retreats. It's a pattern. Attempts to be sincere with her once that pattern is engaged have never worked, she'll only retreat more politely. (See the sword practice scene in Shindig.) Mal just has a really messed up sense of when to show his feelings: when she won't care to hear them.

Quote:

I just think that, after all the time she spent acting like she wanted to, and vice-versa, their absolute refusal to discuss their own tension and perhaps why they shouldn't fall into each other's arms was a much less mature choice than constant snarking and then fleeing.

The problem is that it's not a done deal. The suspicion that it's doomed is at war with the suspicion that it could be wonderful, which is the entire point of their conflict. They see the potential, they see the obstacles and they are scared and choose not to pursue. They prioritise their independence, both of them.

Mal flees into the shield of calling her a whore, Inara snarks back and retreats, Mal pretends he's the only one being pushed away, Inara ultimately flees back to her life. The snarking and fleeing is who they both are at this point in their lives. If they had the insight to have a mature conversation about their relationship, they would have the insight to realise how their respective "flaws" don't really bother them. Mal would let her be a Companion, Inara would let Mal be a petty thief and they'd be happy. These are people who are afraid of their mutual potential, they are conflicted. For good reasons, because we know Mal is traumatised by loss, and we know weird things are going on in Inara's past.

If they could solve their conflict easily, there would be no conflict in the first place, you know?

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:42 PM

Hey, Rouka, I think the word you're trying to think of to describe Mal is "infantile." :)

Although. I don't recall him ever deliberately trying to publicly humiliate her...

Oh wait, the scene in the pilot, with Book. But I'm not sure that's cut-and-dry. He was in a mean mood on account of Badger, wanted to make the preacher uncomfortable and rile Inara by the usual means, but didn't take into account that Book wasn't already familiar with their game. It was poorly handled by Mal all around, and Inara's words to him telling him that he stepped over a line apparently made him feel guilty enough that he sent Book with some food for her as an apology.

My impression is that he normally doesn't behave that way when introducing Inara to strangers. The other times I remember that he embarrasses her are inadvertent (getting into a duel because he doesn't know the customs of the upper class) or he does so privately, as in Our Mrs. Reynolds.

I don't really classify the sniping they do to each other as that either.

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Friday, February 13, 2009 12:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Hey, Rouka, I think the word you're trying to think of to describe Mal is "infantile." :)

Not infantile, really. :) I reserve that for Kaylee when she gets huffy about Simon.

Mal is more ...selectively hypocritical. He doesn't seem to register that his words to Inara have an effect, a long-term one, but he gets all wounded when Inara hits back or rejects his advances. His need to be defensive, to use "whore" as a weapon to protect his fragile heart seems so ingrained that it doesn't register as extremely discouraging behavior to him.

It's a bit pathetic, mostly tragic, but not really infantile. :)

Quote:

Although. I don't recall him ever deliberately trying to publicly humiliate her...

Oh wait, the scene in the pilot, with Book. But I'm not sure that's cut-and-dry. He was in a mean mood on account of Badger, wanted to make the preacher uncomfortable and rile Inara by the usual means, but didn't take into account that Book wasn't already familiar with their game. It was poorly handled by Mal all around, and Inara's words to him telling him that he stepped over a line apparently made him feel guilty enough that he sent Book with some food for her as an apology.

My impression is that he normally doesn't behave that way when introducing Inara to strangers. The other times I remember that he embarrasses her are inadvertent (getting into a duel because he doesn't know the customs of the upper class) or he does so privately, as in Our Mrs. Reynolds.

I don't really classify the sniping they do to each other as that either.

Okay, you are correct, I overstated that bit. He doesn't want to publicly humiliate her, really. :) But the rest still applies.

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Friday, February 13, 2009 5:09 AM

Way I see it, it's not so much he doesn't think his words effect her, he wouldn't keep poking at her if they didn't. She's a high class lady; he can't imagine her caring in the long run about insults or opinions from someone in a much lower position on the social totem pole.

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Friday, February 13, 2009 5:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Way I see it, it's not so much he doesn't think his words effect her, he wouldn't keep poking at her if they didn't. She's a high class lady; he can't imagine her caring in the long run about insults or opinions from someone in a much lower position on the social totem pole.

It's that long-term-effect I'm talking about, though, and it's exactly as you say. He just assumes that the insults wouldn't bother Inara long-term, as if they don't send a somewhat consistent - if false - message.

It might make sense if they hadn't formed a friendship, if Inara wasn't actually quite involved in the crew's fate, but she is, so his ignorance of this long-term effect he would have on his friend Inara by regularly insulting her, regardless of social class, is not quite natural. His few but sincere attempts at forging a closer connection (Shindig, HoG) demonstrate that he doesn't see an unbridgeable social distance, not really. He wouldn't even try, otherwise.

I think this blindness to his own effect is a bit willful, born out of fear, because disapproving of her life choices and rudely telling her so is his best defense against Inara. If he was honest with himself about his effect and stopped insulting/hurting her, he'd be facing tougher questions.

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Friday, February 13, 2009 6:04 AM

Hmm, true enough. Long term there's an effect that he's just ignoring, and that ignoring is probably another defense mechanism along the lines of 'She's not interested, doesn't care. Good.'

I can believe there might be a little fear, sometimes, and definitely that he willfully pushes her away. I think he thinks he'd ruin her and she's out of his league.

The most he ever tried, before Nandi dropped those hints, was asking her not to accept Atherton's offer. That was his own quiet way of asking her to not leave him, but he definitely couldn't say that specifically, because what exactly would she be leaving? Nothing, in his mind.

Slightly off topic: does anyone else get the impression that getting the two of them to confront their feelings was ENTIRELY Nandi's purpose? She did have SOME companion training before she left. Guess we'll never know now.

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Friday, February 13, 2009 6:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Slightly off topic: does anyone else get the impression that getting the two of them to confront their feelings was ENTIRELY Nandi's purpose? She did have SOME companion training before she left. Guess we'll never know now.

You mean, was it her intention? No way. If it had been, she would have failed spectacularly, as it got them to confront their feelings, but also destroyed any chance of actually having something together for foreseeable future. She didn't seem that short-sighted or stupid to me.

If this had been her plan, it'd also have been a dang selfish way to do it. Nandi is very clear to Mal that she had no idea Inara had feelings for him, implying she wouldn't have slept with him had she known, and during the evening conversation she has Mal revealing his feelings for Inara, albeit very slightly veiled, making the sex unnecessary for just that purpose.

I think Nandi sees her own inability to fully know Inara reflected in Mal, and the unexpected commonality blinds her to Inara's feelings for Mal. They share a night based on their hurt feelings for an absent third person that they both failed to read accurately, which I find beautifully poetic and tragic.

Was it her purpose in terms of the writers' intentions? Uh, yes, almost entirely. :)

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Friday, February 13, 2009 7:00 AM

Well, if Nandi had lived, she might have been able to do some damage control and helped them bridge that gap; could be the way she left it hadn't been her intention.

Just seems strange to me that she'd spend the night with Mal, and not chatting up her dear old friend who has about zero experience aiding in childbirth. Makes me think maybe there was some ulterior motive there, that she's trying to help the both of them.

But your way is interesting too. You think she's attracted to Inara?

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Friday, February 13, 2009 1:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Well, if Nandi had lived, she might have been able to do some damage control and helped them bridge that gap; could be the way she left it hadn't been her intention.

But then why do the damage in the first place? It would have been more productive JUST talking to Mal, or even better, talking to Inara. Sleeping with Mal is about 100% counter-productive.

Quote:

Just seems strange to me that she'd spend the night with Mal, and not chatting up her dear old friend who has about zero experience aiding in childbirth. Makes me think maybe there was some ulterior motive there, that she's trying to help the both of them.

Would you seduce your friend's crush to help them open up their feelings? But how would sleeping with Mal help them? It's not the kind of thing you do to a person you like. You don't strengthen the chances of a couple by making yourself a third party to their relationship. It'd be a completely backward plan. It's cruelty, even. And a completely unjustified outside interference.

It'd make Nandi a pretty villainous character.

I agree that Nandi spending time with Mal instead of Inara is sort of a huge plot hole that is glossed over. It's not really logical and Joss gets away with it because of the monumental fall-out. But I just cannot for the life of me consider that she knew Inara had feelings for Mal and then slept with him anyway. It'd assassinate everything I like about Nandi.

Quote:

But your way is interesting too. You think she's attracted to Inara?

I personally think so, yes, but to keep it more neutral, it can easily be toned down to them having obviously shared a close friendship at some point, and the way Nandi emphasises that SHE doesn't know Inara's reason for leaving Sihnon, either, just jumps out at me that this disconnect, keeping her emotions very close, is a pattern with Inara that Nandi has struggled with the same way Mal does, only Mal is probably more to blame himself - which Nandi doesn't know.

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Friday, February 13, 2009 1:13 PM

VERONIC

In my opinion, Shindig is very very enjoyable.
You know, I'm a big fan of Mal And Inara (I love the sexual tension).
Mal loves Inara, but he doesn´t like her job. And Inara loves Mal, but she doesn´t like his job.
Almost, Companion can´t felt love.

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Friday, February 13, 2009 3:06 PM

Rouka:

*Cough* Um, well, no, I wouldn't do that, but that's more a case of "not-applicable."

I do see what you're saying. I don't know, it still feels to me like Nandi could see Inara and Mal's feelings right away. The way the two snark at each other is so blatantly obvious, and they're even at it when Inara is trying to introduce Mal. And then Nandi seems to smirk knowingly.

Hmm, Nandi does seem curious. Or is that intended to get Mal curious and she already knows why Inara left? Bah, if only she hadn't died, then we might know this stuff.

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Friday, February 13, 2009 3:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by veronic:
In my opinion, Shindig is very very enjoyable.
You know, I'm a big fan of Mal And Inara (I love the sexual tension).
Mal loves Inara, but he doesn´t like her job. And Inara loves Mal, but she doesn´t like his job.
Almost, Companion can´t felt love.

She doesn't want to, at least.

Yeah, they're pretty much my favourite potential couple. Definitely the most intense, and really interesting their respective issues.

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Friday, February 13, 2009 10:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Rouka:

*Cough* Um, well, no, I wouldn't do that, but that's more a case of "not-applicable."

I do see what you're saying. I don't know, it still feels to me like Nandi could see Inara and Mal's feelings right away. The way the two snark at each other is so blatantly obvious, and they're even at it when Inara is trying to introduce Mal. And then Nandi seems to smirk knowingly.

Hmm, Nandi does seem curious. Or is that intended to get Mal curious and she already knows why Inara left? Bah, if only she hadn't died, then we might know this stuff.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. :)

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Sunday, February 15, 2009 9:56 PM

I had thought Nandi had clearly said after the night with Mal that she had not known INARA had the same feelings towards Mal, or else Nandi would not have intervened. If this is true, Nandi would have seen Mal pining for Inara, and Inara wanting to keep things purely businesslike, and Nandi would have been providing a diversion for Mal, taking the pressure off of Inara, in addition to whatever Nandi wanted from or for Mal. Inara was a player, and purportedly a better trained Companion than Nandi, so Nandi could have missed the signs if Inara wanted her to miss them, at least until the morning after.

Regaqrding Mal jabbing Inara, I normally conjure Mal is irked by Inara supporting Unification, which Mal likely considers redundant for a whore. Mal and Zoe are fairly anti-Unification, Jayne is anti-Alliance (at least lawforce), Wash is acceptable through marriage, Kaylee was on a world near Paquin (according to the Map of the Verse, a border world near Silverhold, Truimph) and not obviously pro-Unification. Inara is the exception, the lone anti-freedom advocate aboard, and a constantly available target for scorn. The profession of whore only allows veiled analogies, being a whore for Unification. If this seems unlikely, consider that many who identify themselves as conservatives or liberals often continue to jab each other, even when not an eliction year (beware RWED). Similar thing.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Hey, Rouka, I think the word you're trying to think of to describe Mal is "infantile." :)

Although. I don't recall him ever deliberately trying to publicly humiliate her...

Oh wait, the scene in the pilot, with Book. But I'm not sure that's cut-and-dry. He was in a mean mood on account of Badger, wanted to make the preacher uncomfortable and rile Inara by the usual means, but didn't take into account that Book wasn't already familiar with their game. It was poorly handled by Mal all around, and Inara's words to him telling him that he stepped over a line apparently made him feel guilty enough that he sent Book with some food for her as an apology.

My impression is that he normally doesn't behave that way when introducing Inara to strangers. The other times I remember that he embarrasses her are inadvertent (getting into a duel because he doesn't know the customs of the upper class) or he does so privately, as in Our Mrs. Reynolds.

I don't really classify the sniping they do to each other as that either.

I figured the Pilot scene was, like Inara said, more to discomfit Book than Inara. When Book was revealed as one of religiosity, it was Kaylee who tried to sooth any Mal conflict, because, "it's just not" a problem. Mal still had to get in his jab, asking if this was a problem.

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Sunday, February 15, 2009 10:28 PM

Well, that's if Nandi is being truthful.

I like Nandi, and I don't think she's some evil person. I even enjoy her story about the dulcimer in the spirit she tells it, imagine her roll her eyes and just smash it to pieces on the ground instead of the possibly more likely scenario of a young companion under a lot of stress throwing a temper tantrum.

And whoever is in charge of house Madrassa really SHOULD go gen hou-zi bi diu-shi for telling all the other companions to shun Nandi for leaving.

I'll admit if it were her plan to play matchmaker, it wouldn't be a good one, especially because she should have been trained to recognize whether she was becoming an interloper and the negative affect that would have on a relationship. Companions seem to function as therapists quite often, and I don't think their intent is for their client to leave an appointment worse off.

But doing what she does, Nandi quickly and efficiently finds out what their feelings are, and equally quickly reveals them. She makes a big old mess of it, but I think ( and I think Nandi thought) the two of them would have been able to work things out once they knew... if not for Inara's secrets that cause her to leave. I don't know. Just how it happens, seems a bit too unbelievable for coincidence.

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Monday, February 16, 2009 6:34 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Wash is acceptable through marriage

What makes you think he supported unification and is only 'acceptable' because Zoe married him? I never saw any evidence of his support for the Alliance, and behind the scene conjecture is that he was flying in some function for the Independents and was taken prisoner, spending most of the war in a low-security cell entertaining other minor war criminals with shadow puppets.
C'mon, that's so Wash.

[/sig]

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Monday, February 16, 2009 7:11 AM

No one's sure exactly what planet Wash came from. The amount of pollution he talks about could be indicative of an over-developed core world. Or it could be crappy terraforming or some other polluting operation on a border/rim world/moon.

I think he was probably Independent too, it brings another angle to the jealousy he feels over Mal and Zoe, in that he never got to experience any of the War (makes it harder from him to relate to her, and maybe he was also very passionate about fighting the War).

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Monday, February 16, 2009 7:19 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

I doubt he ever saw much combat, or wanted to. My thought is he was probably running supplies and got intercepted. Not to say he wasn't passionate about it, I think he was, but he's not inclined to be a warrior the same way Zoe is. I think that still adds to the jealousy issue, though. Maybe he feels like he's not strong enough for her sometimes.

[/sig]

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Monday, February 16, 2009 8:12 AM

Well, he's a pilot. They have a different mentality than trenchmen. Dogfights are somewhat impersonal, but there's also this weird kind of respect, like it's a duel, it's different from the feel of war that most of us are familiar with. You fly a sortee, you go home to your base after and have dinner and drinks.

He'd have wanted to fly and be the greatest pilot out there, be decorated as a hero for some nigh-impossible scouting mission or perilous escape. I think if he got captured, he'd be disappointed he never got that chance.

Oh, also on the Wash-during-the-war-history, there's also the question of where did he got to pilot school. That could seem alliance because it's very official, but then on more prosperous worlds (like one with enough industry to be heavily polluted), they'd probably have to be able to train pilots to transport their goods to the rest of the verse.

So, it could swing either way, but Wash really doesn't have an Alliance mentality. I think he gets a thrill thumbing his nose at the law, same as the rest of them. On the other hand, he has called their lifestyle "unhealthsome" and unwise, and suggested Zoe is the only reason he does it. It think he's just more acutely aware of the danger because it's Zoe who's in danger.

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Monday, February 16, 2009 8:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Wash is acceptable through marriage

What makes you think he supported unification and is only 'acceptable' because Zoe married him? I never saw any evidence of his support for the Alliance, and behind the scene conjecture is that he was flying in some function for the Independents and was taken prisoner, spending most of the war in a low-security cell entertaining other minor war criminals with shadow puppets.
C'mon, that's so Wash.

Sorry, did not intend to suggest Wash was Pro-Alliance. Had no info pro-Alliance, nor did he banter aboutn how he fought in the war for the Independents. Without clear indication either way, his marriage to Zoe (actually vice versa) s=gave him cred - Zoe would not mesh with a purplebelly.

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Monday, February 16, 2009 9:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
But doing what she does, Nandi quickly and efficiently finds out what their feelings are, and equally quickly reveals them. She makes a big old mess of it, but I think ( and I think Nandi thought) the two of them would have been able to work things out once they knew... if not for Inara's secrets that cause her to leave. I don't know. Just how it happens, seems a bit too unbelievable for coincidence.

Except it's not efficient! :)

Nandi can tell Inara likes Mal - without knowing Inara ran into Mal outside her door, without talking about Mal at all, JUST from the way Inara won't look at her when she steps into the room later that morning. Or something like that.

She can read Inara, when she puts her mind to it.
The efficient thing to do would have been to ask Inara upfront. That reaction would have been enough to know and then she could have worked up some kind of reveal - if indeed she was so nosy as to mess with their business in the first place.

I really find that whole theory of manipulation cannot work without attaching a hefty dose of selfishness to Nandi because you do NOT mess with other people's relationships unasked, especially if you have training. And it just doesn't jive with the maturity Nandi displays in the rest of the episode.

And I still maintain that it's nothing short of cruel to create a rift like that. You do NOT do that to anyone who even remotely like on purpose. Whether they MAY repair (repair! That means something was broken!) or not later.

I mean, seriously, Mal and Inara could never look back on the moment when they got together without thinking about Mal sleeping with Nandi. How is that going to help them last? It doesn't really promise anything for a couple starting out rocky actually being able to stay together. Nandi isn't that dumb.

I do NOT think they would have been able to work things out "were it not for Inara's secret". If it wasn't for Inara's secret they MIGHT already be together (or never have met at all). But even if it wasn't for her secret (which we didn't know for the longest time and still could make sense of her choice to leave, you know) Mal's awful behavior to her would still come into play, Inara's different values, their different lives... Lots of reasons for Inara to resist the relationship that have nothing to do with her secret. Add the shock and pain from Mal and Nandi, and you do not really make a convincing case to Inara to try this relationship.

And why would Nandi think they could work it out, really? How would she know?

And as I said, sometimes a weird thing like Nandi spending time with Mal instead of Inara IS just bad writing. Joss is capable of plotholes. See "The Message". ;)

Dammit. I walked away from this thread before and I am sucked back in!

I guess I just keep being confused by your opinion. How can you even consider that anyone with training would think that this is a good idea? A selfish fourteen-year-old might, but a grown woman trained in psychology and counseling who clearly likes Inara a lot and knows a thing or two about respecting people's freedom to make choices? I'm making my incredulous face. :)

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Monday, February 16, 2009 9:07 PM

Are you saying Nandi knew Inara had equal feelings for Mal BEFORE she spent the night with Mal?

I had not seen that view proposed before. Only that Nandi knew Mal had feelings for Inara.

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Monday, February 16, 2009 11:34 PM

I am not saying that. I'm arguing against it, in fact.

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:34 AM

Think JewelStaiteFan was talking to me. :)

I don't mean to keep you here. It's a suspicion I have, not a strong opinion that this is how it was, or belief that if this was Nandi's intention, it was the right thing to do. People can make bad judgment calls, especially, it seems, when trying to play matchmaker.

But in the interest of defending my case, the banter they trade in Nandi's presence would give her no indication of how much and how seriously the two of them fight and insult each other. And I think I do agree with you that Nandi doesn't know what Inara's secret is. Hence, my saying that if this WAS what she was going for, the possibility of believing they might still have a chance even after. A lot of us fans do, don't we? If we feel like they have a chance after what Nandi did, why wouldn't SHE?

I also propose their relationship was pretty broken BEFORE Nandi may or may not have intervened.

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 3:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Think JewelStaiteFan was talking to me. :)

I don't mean to keep you here. It's a suspicion I have, not a strong opinion that this is how it was, or belief that if this was Nandi's intention, it was the right thing to do. People can make bad judgment calls, especially, it seems, when trying to play matchmaker.

But in the interest of defending my case, the banter they trade in Nandi's presence would give her no indication of how much and how seriously the two of them fight and insult each other. And I think I do agree with you that Nandi doesn't know what Inara's secret is. Hence, my saying that if this WAS what she was going for, the possibility of believing they might still have a chance even after. A lot of us fans do, don't we? If we feel like they have a chance after what Nandi did, why wouldn't SHE?

I also propose their relationship was pretty broken BEFORE Nandi may or may not have intervened.

Yes, but what I am arguing is that it would be completely irrational to try and "fix" their relationship by putting such a big strain on it, you know? It's like poisoning someone to make them realise they were living a stressful life that MIGHT lead to heart problems. Who would do that?

Even if their relationship had not been fraught with conflict, this strain would have thrown them back considerably, so there is no reason at all to suspect Nandi should have expected a positive outcome from sleeping with Mal knowing that Inara loved him.

The more I think about it, the more implausible it becomes.

Why break something like that, only to "hope" that it may be fixed afterwards? It's too obviously nonsensical for a smart woman like Nandi to try, especially when there would have been better ways to try and manipulate them, say, by simply talking to them. Maximum information and manipulation without any of the damage that would keep them apart.

The thing is that Nandi is not the kind who would make bad judgment calls about this because she has been trained in subjects pertaining to human behavior and psychology. It's like expecting Wash to make a rookie mistake about piloting Serenity.

And there is still no motivation for Nandi to try and secretly manipulate them like this when she could just openly ask them.

Overall your theory is just too improbable because it bends logic and characterisation too much.

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 5:18 AM

Well, I never really said I believed it over much. It's just something I wonder about.

I know you don't really want to discuss it anymore, so I'll try to drop it too now.

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 5:25 AM

Nah, really, I apologize for getting all obsessive about it. :)

Have a nice day, anyways!

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:24 PM