Dollhouse: Gray Hour - Echo becomes a thief and loses herself on the same day. by Haken

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
I liked this episode the most of any of them so far. At least it felt like we got more of a glimpse into who echo is.

That's not to say the "go on mission...mission goes wrong...find solution on the fly" formulas isn't getting old. Heck would it be that bad to have a mission that goes according to plan? I'm fairly certain they can push the morality angle and make interesting episodes.

Oh well at least I'm a little more impressed.

I agree - best ep yet. I found it pretty damn watchable, particularly given my estimation of the show 'til this evening.

'Nother thing - Sierra (Dichen Lachman) is a lot more fun to watch when she's got a lively imprint on board. Seems like we mostly see her wandering around the Dollhouse looking vacant. And when Sierra looks vacant, she really looks vacant.

ETA: "But I learned to lap dance." That line's a small example of another cool thing about this ep - the dialogue was a lot snappier, more...Firefly-esque.

It was like that when we got here!

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Friday, March 6, 2009 6:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Anyone seen the new Comcast ads, where the FX look very similar to the opening of Doll House. Coincidence?

I think I need to pay more attention to the opening of Dollhouse.

I'm not proud of this, but for some reason the Comcast ads sorta give me the willies...

It was like that when we got here!

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Friday, March 6, 2009 6:21 PM

STOWEAWAY

So at the end of each episode we see that she retains something from her assignment even after being wiped. Tonight it was her drawing the painting in the steam on the mirror.
It's intriguing. But I want to know when that's going to become significant. For now it's more of a "huh" moment.

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Check out http://www.americasfunniesttshirts.com for hilarious shirts at a great price.

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Friday, March 6, 2009 6:25 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

I wasn't that impressed with tonight's ep.

Did I hear DeWitt correctly when she told the prospective client that only the client knows all the details of the engagement? If that is what she said then it makes no sense. How would they know how to imprint the active for that engagement?

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Friday, March 6, 2009 6:28 PM

CELLARDOOR

With last week's episode, it wasn't until I watched it a second time that I appreciated it. (translation: I didn't like this much at first glance, still trying to work up some more like). I think the same may be true here. Course, I came straight from viewing Watchmen, with a very deep and complicated message of its own, so my brain may have been a little burned out.

Though I don't think the job was believable, I liked the idea of the delivery of a baby echoed (pun not intended, but inevitable) later in the episode with the remote wipe and Echo entering a newborn-like state, at least according to how Topher described it. The discussion of art was pretty cool as well I thought. I've studied Picasso, but I would not consider myself an admirer (of the person especially, but of most of the art as well). This episode made me rethink that a little.

Adelle... there's more to her than we saw in the first episode or two. She's very protective, and not just as a businesswoman I don't think. I wonder what it's like for her to be the imperfect ambassador for so many "perfect" people.

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Friday, March 6, 2009 7:37 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by WASHnwear:

I'm not proud of this, but for some reason the Comcast ads sorta give me the willies...

It was like that when we got here!

I think it has more to do w/ that freaky, monotoned " jingle " they sing.... bleh

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Friday, March 6, 2009 10:03 PM

SHINYGOODGUY

Hi Gang,

For this ep, I really liked the opening where we come into it just before a wipe. For me it's fun to figure out just how it'll fit into the storyline and what's going to happen next.

I also believe we're starting to get more complex eps as well. I agree that we're getting much more about DeWitt and that there's a lot more than what's on the surface. I don't think that Alpha had anything to do with the wipe of Echo. Doesn't make sense. In the last ep we get that he lets her live and now he puts her in harms way.

I'm not seeing it. I may be wrong but if he lets her live why do this. There's more to this that will be revealed much later. I agree also that the dialogue was much snappier. Hi marks for whoever wrote this ep. This one felt much more cohesive and finally we get a rise out of Sierra. Good ep all around.

Agreed, they need to have an assignment go right, just to change things up a bit. Although technically the opening sequence did go right. I'm not sure just where Joss is going with this because we already know that Echo is special and that she's retaining bits and pieces of her assignments, so we don't have much invested at the moment other than that.

Hey, that's it.....he's taking us for a ride.

SGG

Tawabawho?

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Saturday, March 7, 2009 3:41 AM

1EYEDCAT

I think the series turned a corner with this episode. It's still not perfect, but now I'll be watching it entirely on its merits and not, in part, to support Whedon.

I would still like to see a little more exploration of the philosophical/moral/peculiar implications of the premise; for example, the appearance of 2 'copies' of the same person, and a little less of the assignment-of-the-week.

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Saturday, March 7, 2009 7:28 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

I really liked this ep. I liked that Victor didn't have his accent while eating lunch (that bugged me last ep) I liked seeing Sierra doing something more interesting. I really liked seeing Echo thrown into the real world, seeing how she handled it. I think my favorite part was when she put her chin up and said "I'm not broken."
To me, it makes perfect sense that Alpha wiped her. He retained bits of all his personas, and it made him what he is. I think he knows the same thing happens to Echo. I think he's pushing her. Maybe he wants a friend, maybe he wants her to get out, maybe he just wants to see if he's the only one this can happen to. Maybe it's something else entirely. Clearly, she is remembering, but does that mean one day she'll wake up a super genius assassin, attack half the people in the Dollhouse, and then disappear off their radar? I don't know. I think that would be too predictable, but it could happen.
And yes, DeWitt said no one knows the details of the engagement, but she was clearly lying. They knew what was going on, they had Boyd outside, and in communication with 'Taffy.' Perhaps the only thing they didn't know was what was being stolen, which they found out in the end. They lead the clients to believe that a supercomputer knows the assignment, calculates risk, and programs the dolls accordingly, which is partially true, it just does it with some human guidance.
I grow far more intrigued by all the characters. I'm pretty eager for next week's episode.

[/sig]

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Saturday, March 7, 2009 12:43 PM

Last week I had pretty much written off Sierra. This week I found her a LOT more pleasant to watch, though. She was, to be honest, quite good actually -- bordering on excellent (but let's not overdo it). Even DeWitt finally rose above her caricature, and showed signs of being a real person, after all. And, heck, even the security dude wasn't constantly mocking his own jackass role, and cared for a moment (if not out of the goodness of his own heart, then simply because he seemed to care professionally, instead of walking the halls like he gives a rat's ass, as he was doing before). And even Topher, who so far never much transcended his 'nerdy jerk with nervous smile' persona, appeared almost human there for a while.

The engagement itself, eh, weren't all that spectacular. It definitely had some 'Riveresque' moments (the obvious "You found me broken" parallel). And when Echo asked that guy, "Are you okay?", my hand to God, I expected him to say "I got stabbed, right here!" :)

They also got the chess-pieces sorted out (just by putting them in start-up position). Now, if only someone be kind enough to tell the prop-master that a white square (h1) goes into the lower left corner, instead of a black one, we're all set for perfection come next round. :)

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
Did I hear DeWitt correctly when she told the prospective client that only the client knows all the details of the engagement? If that is what she said then it makes no sense. How would they know how to imprint the active for that engagement?

Yeah, that was pretty darn lame. Unbelievably unbelievable, really.

Funny thing is, I only now get to think of Eliza's performance. Wonder why. I liked her 'negotiator' type / take charge kinda first part of her role. The latter, her tabula rasa state, while not as spiffy, of course, certainly had its own merit. Especiallly the way she absorbed / interpreted art.

And I like how they gave Sierra the Taffy persona, too. In hindsight it's pretty obvious that nothing is to stop you from imprinting the same character onto two different people, but I thought that was an interesting twist, nonetheless.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sunday, March 8, 2009 7:00 AM

I like that we finally got some interaction between the wiped dolls, and got to see some actual character from Echo in that state. It addresses one of the problems the show's premise would have to surmount (making someone intentionally written with no personality interesting), and the other problem that there needs to be more cast interaction with Echo.

The scene where they eat lunch together is still kinda creepy and empty and awkward, but it's supposed to be. And it's coupled with the revelation that the dolls shouldn't normally be doing that, which explained past episodes and why that aspect I was expecting from Joss was absent up to then.

And of course River-esque Echo in the vault is love. And I also thought the switch in roles how the two guys behave towards Echo was interesting. The thief who started yelling at her and slapped her, he initially offered to deal with Echo because "he has a sister" with some condition. I'm kind of disturbed to imagine how he treats his sister, that was no Simon Tam. She even identifies him as being in the same category as the hunter in the woods, a guy who believes people have to prove their worthiness to have the right to live, and kills him the same way. The other guy clearly hates what he does, takes moral issue at first with Taffy being so comfortable with her job, says he's a bad guy, but then we see him actually care about Echo. Lots of good characterization even for minor characters, and I kind of hope we see them again. Joss finally showed off his writing chops with this episode, and I feel validated now for watching the others.

Watching this one, I've got some suspicions.

I think Victor's story with the FBI agent isn't happening concurrent with the events going on with Echo, I think they're Victor's backstory. I think it's going to be revealed that after Ballard stopped protecting Victor, the Russian Mafia grabbed him and put him in the Dollhouse as a punishment for being a snitch.

And I think Dominic was once Alpha's handler, and that's why he seems so jaded and cruel towards the other dolls.

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Sunday, March 8, 2009 8:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

I think Victor's story with the FBI agent isn't happening concurrent with the events going on with Echo, I think they're Victor's backstory. I think it's going to be revealed that after Ballard stopped protecting Victor, the Russian Mafia grabbed him and put him in the Dollhouse as a punishment for being a snitch.

An interesting thought! :) I'm thinkin' you might be right. It would certainly be 'Jossing' the plot up (can you use Jossing as a verb?). We'll have it on record that you thought of it first.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sunday, March 8, 2009 8:47 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I think Victor's story with the FBI agent isn't happening concurrent with the events going on with Echo, I think they're Victor's backstory. I think it's going to be revealed that after Ballard stopped protecting Victor, the Russian Mafia grabbed him and put him in the Dollhouse as a punishment for being a snitch.

that's a great theory, but unfortunately I can't agree. DeWitt talks about the agent, keeping him off the track, giving him closure, etc. He's definitely being manipulated from inside the Dollhouse by means of Victor.

[/sig]

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Sunday, March 8, 2009 8:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
[Bthat's a great theory, but unfortunately I can't agree. DeWitt talks about the agent, keeping him off the track, giving him closure, etc. He's definitely being manipulated from inside the Dollhouse by means of Victor.

Sure, the Dollhouse does that. But it's still posssible the Ballard interactions we see with Victor are 'pre-Victor-in-the-Dollhouse', right?

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sunday, March 8, 2009 9:18 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Anything's possible, but I don't think it's at all likely. I think if that's the kind of twist that was being aimed at, we would have seen the interactions, would have seen Victor in the Dollhouse, possibly seen more interactions, but we would not have then seen DeWitt talking about Ballard, or about the interactions, or about bringing them to the closure that was needed. She seemed sad when discussing it, I don't think she enjoyed the thought of setting one of her actives up for very likely death.
There are a lot of twists and turns in Joss's storytelling, a lot of mysteries. He's an artist in that respect. He makes you wonder, he makes you think, makes you try to solve the mystery while he unfurls it layer by layer. The mystery of what's happening to Echo, and why, and what Alpha is trying to achieve, and why, is what keeps poking at me, intriguing moments giving me a whiff of the main course, that subtle scent that leaves you puzzling, "What is that? And when will it be ready so I can sink my teeth into it?" I don't think he'd give us a (false) straight-on explanation to hide a plot twist, that just seems... cheesy. Cheap. He's a better storyteller than that. Just my opinion, of course.

[/sig]

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Sunday, March 8, 2009 9:44 AM

OUT2THEBLACK

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

...Lots of good characterization even for minor characters, and I kind of hope we see them again. Joss finally showed off his writing chops with this episode, and I feel validated now for watching the others.

Except that he didn't...

Joss didn't write this one , it was a couple of chicks that he hired...

I'd like to see him take a more direct hand to the scripts , and inject some trademark snarky humor...

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Sunday, March 8, 2009 9:50 AM

We've all heard the stories about how hands on Joss is when it comes to scripts. If there's a lack of humour, it's either a mandate for Fox, or Joss himself is trying for something different. He did say somewhere that he wanted Dollhouse to be darker and more grown-up.

PhoenixRose: You bring up a good point, although DeWitt talking about closure for agent Ballard suggests to me something happened in the past.

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Sunday, March 8, 2009 10:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
And I think Dominic was once Alpha's handler, and that's why he seems so jaded and cruel towards the other dolls.

I think you might be right about this, too. Did you notice, that prior to Sierra getting her treatment, when she tells him she's got her eye on him and shouldn't take off with the money, Dominic says something like: "Sure, Echo."? That lends credence to your notion that he once was Echo's handler (and basically just calls her Echo because he finds himself in an all too familiar position). I do find him actually more cruel to Echo than to the other Dolls.

Btw, I loved how Echo retained a 'blue sky' image, when in the vault, in her wiped state, on the Parthenon job (which is itself subtle pun on the tabula rasa thingy, what with 'parthenos' meaning 'virgin' and all, in Greek).

Oh, and I also like Topher's "You need to take something" assistent. She's cute.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sunday, March 8, 2009 10:38 AM

Well, actually, I said Alpha and not Echo, but that'd be a fun possibility too, especially the part about why he's no longer Echo's handler.

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Sunday, March 8, 2009 10:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Well, actually, I said Alpha and not Echo, but that'd be a fun possibility too, especially the part about why he's no longer Echo's handler.

LOL, you *did* say Alpha. Wonder why I read Echo? :)

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sunday, March 8, 2009 10:45 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
DeWitt talking about closure for agent Ballard suggests to me something happened in the past.

Yeah, he was shot

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Sunday, March 8, 2009 11:20 AM

Heh, true enough, I think that'd piss off any agent enough that they'd start pursuing the case (more) obsessively.

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Sunday, March 8, 2009 1:53 PM

A very enjoyable episode.

Can I just ask, and forgive me for not reading everyones posts, but is anyone of the similar mind to me that Alpha is the FBI agent? Would that make sense?

I noticed in the previous episode how; he wiped out his attackers with extraordinary force - and I'd have to go back and watch it again- but did he not hold a similar stance over his defeated attackers in the basement to that of Alpha as Alpha did overlooking Echo back at the Dollhouse? And with blood on his hands...?

It may explain why he knows about the Dollhouse and no-one else does. Seeing that residual memories do remain in an active, it would clarify why he knows Caroline/Echo is a Doll.

Anyways - I liked this one alot and Eliza was excellent when doing the heist, right back to her Faith mode, and the drawing in the steam was a touch of genius!

As someone said earlier - Dollhouse I'll now watch on it's own merits, not necessarily because it's a Joss show.

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Sunday, March 8, 2009 2:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Quote:
... Oh, and I also like Topher's "You need to take something" assistent. She's cute.

Yeah, she's pretty much that, alright. She was also - and correct me if I'm wrong - Mr. Palmer's "girlfriend" and attorney-gone-tragically-wrong on NCIS for 2-3 seasons.

It was like that when we got here!

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Sunday, March 8, 2009 3:09 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
is anyone of the similar mind to me that Alpha is the FBI agent? Would that make sense?

Maybe if Alpha has multiple personalities, one of which remembers the Dollhouse and knows how to hack their system, and probably how to find it, and is sending info on it to his other personality in the form of a manila envelope. Intriguing idea.
However, seeing as how the Dollhouse is obviously tracking Ballard, and would presumably know what Alpha looks like, I find it a little far-fetched. Their ultimate goal when it comes to Alpha seems to be to take him out. He's dangerous, to them and in general.
There might be a connection between the two characters, though. It could be any number of things. Maybe Alpha was at some point imprinted with a portion of Ballard. Maybe they knew each other, before Alpha was an active, and that's why Ballard has an obsession with the Dollhouse. Maybe they're brothers, only Alpha is too messed up to really remember that. Alpha is certainly a great mystery.

...Hey, has anyone else wondered where the Dollhouse assignment came from in the first place? It's clearly regarded as a joke by most of the Bureau, but someone must have gotten a whiff of something worthy of investigation, unbelievable as it might have been, and it got foisted on Ballard because... what? He was considered a joke already? Kind of has echoes of the X-files in that way.

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Sunday, March 8, 2009 3:26 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

Quote:
Originally posted by WASHnwear:
Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Quote:
... Oh, and I also like Topher's "You need to take something" assistent. She's cute.

Yeah, she's pretty much that, alright. She was also - and correct me if I'm wrong - Mr. Palmer's "girlfriend" and attorney-gone-tragically-wrong on NCIS for 2-3 seasons.

Yes! I knew I recognized her from somewhere.

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Sunday, March 8, 2009 3:49 PM

LISSA

Quote:
Originally posted by out2theblack:

Except that he didn't...

Joss didn't write this one , it was a couple of chicks that he hired...

I'd like to see him take a more direct hand to the scripts , and inject some trademark snarky humor...

Um, those "chicks" he hired are a writing team Joss has worked with in the past on Angel. Also, the fact that they wrote the episode does not mean that Joss did not have a direct hand in the scripts. This is how all of Joss's shows have worked in the past. He can't write every script. Generally he gets the writing credit on about 3 or 4 episodes a season.

~lissa

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Sunday, March 8, 2009 3:57 PM

Originally posted by PhoenixRose:

Quote:
However, seeing as how the Dollhouse is obviously tracking Ballard, and would presumably know what Alpha looks like, I find it a little far-fetched. Their ultimate goal when it comes to Alpha seems to be to take him out. He's dangerous, to them and in general.

Well what if Alpha and his escape into the real world so to speak, is an experiment to see how a blank active (tabula Rasa) would cope. Remember Topher noted how Echo, Sierra and Victor grouped together... Perhaps this is what Alpha/Ballard is instinctively doing by trying to locate the Dollhouse.

Now how he came to be an agent and 'look' different is part of his evolving on the outside. The fact that the Dollhouse are reluctant to get rid of Ballard would suggest they have some kind of vested interest in what he does, and just how he goes about it. So keeping him under observation is just part of the procedure. For now.

Remember the call DeWitt received when she was with the client. She was nervous. The bosses above her clearly have an agenda, a more sinister agenda...

Maybe :D

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Sunday, March 8, 2009 4:12 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

I'm sorry, that holds no water. While you're right that DeWitt was nervous, I think it was for entirely different reasons than you're speculating. Alpha isn't a tabula rasa, that's been well established. He's a "composite event" who injured or slaughtered several tabula rasa actives and employees of the Dollhouse, including Echo's previous handler, the previous Siera, and Doctor Saunders, and he fled. He was reported assassinated by the higher-ups in an effort to keep panic down. Topher fears him; he's afraid like a little girl. Alpha and the composite event in general are, I believe, the ultimate plot of the show.

[/sig]

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Sunday, March 8, 2009 4:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
A very enjoyable episode.

Can I just ask, and forgive me for not reading everyones posts, but is anyone of the similar mind to me that Alpha is the FBI agent? Would that make sense?

I noticed in the previous episode how; he wiped out his attackers with extraordinary force - and I'd have to go back and watch it again- but did he not hold a similar stance over his defeated attackers in the basement to that of Alpha as Alpha did overlooking Echo back at the Dollhouse? And with blood on his hands...?

It may explain why he knows about the Dollhouse and no-one else does. Seeing that residual memories do remain in an active, it would clarify why he knows Caroline/Echo is a Doll.

Anyways - I liked this one alot and Eliza was excellent when doing the heist, right back to her Faith mode, and the drawing in the steam was a touch of genius!

As someone said earlier - Dollhouse I'll now watch on it's own merits, not necessarily because it's a Joss show.

Actually, yeah. o.0 That brief look at Alpha screwing around in that apartment and preparing the file to put on Ballard's desk, I noticed they look kind of alike from the back (same hair colour, similar haircut at least). I just couldn't figure out how that could possibly work. Some sort of fractured personality thing? Like in Fight Club? With the Alpha personality leaving clues for Ballard? It'd sure fit the theme of the show...

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Sunday, March 8, 2009 4:37 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Some sort of fractured personality thing?

Said that, didn't I?
Still makes no sense to me, as i said, but I guess we'll see.

[/sig]

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Sunday, March 8, 2009 5:51 PM

Sorry, sometimes as I'm reading a thread, I respond to a comment before I read the comments that follow it. :)

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Sunday, March 8, 2009 11:24 PM

Originally posted by PhoenixRose:

Quote:
I'm sorry, that holds no water. While you're right that DeWitt was nervous, I think it was for entirely different reasons than you're speculating. Alpha isn't a tabula rasa, that's been well established. He's a "composite event" who injured or slaughtered several tabula rasa actives and employees of the Dollhouse, including Echo's previous handler, the previous Siera, and Doctor Saunders, and he fled. He was reported assassinated by the higher-ups in an effort to keep panic down. Topher fears him; he's afraid like a little girl. Alpha and the composite event in general are, I believe, the ultimate plot of the show.

Hey Phoenix.

While I conceed that I'm reaching here I still feel there are enough plot 'gaps' if you will to arrange the facts in such a way as to make Alpha Ballard. The split personality thing is one such device (although I hope they don't go that route). I'm not saying I'm absolutely right - but the information that he's a composite isn't necessarily enough to dispute that Ballard is Alpha. Granted it's unlikely - but within the reality of the show I'm not ruling it out.

There's something not quite right about Ballard - he seems detatched from things somehow and the fact that he seems disengaged from his neighbours advances suggests something to me....

Anyway time will tell hey.

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Sunday, March 8, 2009 11:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
[BThe fact that the Dollhouse are reluctant to get rid of Ballard would suggest they have some kind of vested interest in what he does, and just how he goes about it. So keeping him under observation is just part of the procedure. For now.

Killing Ballard would be a pretty brain-dead thing to do, IMHO. Unless you wanna get pinched... which is what happens when you kill a Fed. :) Instead you wanna trip him up, constantly make him look foolish to his superiors. Or, best of all, do it the "1984" way: actually GIVE him something to go on (like the 'Alliance' did in 1984 with the fake Resistance book); not enough to really go somewhere with it, but enough to keep him thinking he's getting somewhere. I think Victor is fulfulling the latter role.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Monday, March 9, 2009 3:54 AM

HELL'S KITTEN

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
I wasn't that impressed with tonight's ep.

Did I hear DeWitt correctly when she told the prospective client that only the client knows all the details of the engagement? If that is what she said then it makes no sense. How would they know how to imprint the active for that engagement?

I normally try to stay away from these sorts of discussions, but, yeah... that didn't make much sense to me, either:

"I can't tell you the details, but we need someone who's unflappable in a tight situation, who can think on the fly, and who can organize a team to break into an incredibly high security vault and get out in one piece...... oh...... and here's a drawing of a piece of the Parthenon for reference..... but... um... yeah, that has *nothing* to do with the engagement." ((innocent whistling))

A few other things that bothered me:

1. Why would anyone spend hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of dollars on an engagement for a midwife? A midwife. Seriously? Midwives still exist and operate today, ya know.... The idea that someone filthy rich would rather deal with the Dollhouse for this sort of common activity is just absurd.

2. Echo's imprint was "wiped" over the phone using the squealing noise of a 54k modem. Niiiice. Sure, the "technology" they use hasn't been explained (yeah, yeah, it's not real), but to insinuate that nothing more than a series of tones and frequencies will cancel out the "real" imprint...? Weak plot device.

3. The Greek government is aware of the existance of the Dollhouse, but the US government is not. Ooookay.........

I guess those are minor complaints, but they do add up show after show. That being said, I'm still going to watch it. Unfortunately, I think that speaks more to my obstinance than it does to the quality of the show.

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Monday, March 9, 2009 4:14 AM

MALACHITE

Overall, there was a lot good about this episode. I really did not find Echo and impaled art guy's escape remotely possible, though, and that ruined this episode for me. It felt like the writers put Echo in an impossible situation and waved a magic wand for her to be able to get out of it. It could be that I didn't get it. As far as I can tell, Echo escaped by running past several guards under the cover of a smoke grenade and then making her way through some passage that extends around the vault and back to the original hole they blew in the wall. How is this possible? All of the guards were at the entrance. How are both Echo and the impaled guy going to get by them? If the guards were blinded by smoke, wouldn't Echo be, too? I wonder if the writer's knew this escape was incredibly implausible, and that's why they didn't bother even trying to film anything for it -- instead just leaving it to our imagination.

Can someone explain the escape to me?

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Monday, March 9, 2009 4:42 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

The only way the Ballard-as-Alpha theory could hold water is if several of his scenes were only in his imagination and/or he has multiple personalities and/or he has had plastic surgery. In the first episode he was in the FBI offices and interacted with several other agents. Plus, DeWitt and Dominic both know Alpha and also know what Ballard looks like. Since Echo was already an active at the time Alpha went psycho it cannot have been that long ago, no time for him to have become an FBI agent, that is unless he was already an agent before he was abducted by the Dollhouse and turned into Alpha.

Sorry, just not working for me.

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Monday, March 9, 2009 5:19 AM

Originally posted by ecgordon:

Quote:
The only way the Ballard-as-Alpha theory could hold water is if several of his scenes were only in his imagination and/or he has multiple personalities and/or he has had plastic surgery.

Well that's three ways right there. Not saying they're solid reasons, but I've seen more built on less.

Quote:
In the first episode he was in the FBI offices and interacted with several other agents. Plus, DeWitt and Dominic both know Alpha and also know what Ballard looks like.

Yeah but DeWitt especially is holding something back on this issue. I'm not entirely sure of her agenda. Last weeks episode where she is clearly adhering to a higher power intrigued me. I wasn't expecting that.

Quote:
Since Echo was already an active at the time Alpha went psycho it cannot have been that long ago, no time for him to have become an FBI agent, that is unless he was already an agent before he was abducted by the Dollhouse and turned into Alpha.

Opps and there's number four... Couldn't he have faked an agents identity? They Winchester boys do it all the time in Supernatural.

Quote:
Sorry, just not working for me.

Oh granted I'm reaching for sure. Thing that's bothering me slightly though is the show set-up. I think we've already met Alpha, otheriwse there's little reason to keep him a shadowy mystery. There's little point to build up to a 'big reveal' and then present us with someone we've not already come across. It would just fall flat. So I'm of the mind we've met him. For the moment the biggest revelation for me would be Ballard. Because he by TV show design, is classic misdirection.

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Monday, March 9, 2009 5:38 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
The only way the Ballard-as-Alpha theory could hold water is if several of his scenes were only in his imagination and/or he has multiple personalities and/or he has had plastic surgery. In the first episode he was in the FBI offices and interacted with several other agents. Plus, DeWitt and Dominic both know Alpha and also know what Ballard looks like. Since Echo was already an active at the time Alpha went psycho it cannot have been that long ago, no time for him to have become an FBI agent, that is unless he was already an agent before he was abducted by the Dollhouse and turned into Alpha.

Sorry, just not working for me.

I concur.

[/sig]

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Monday, March 9, 2009 6:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hell's Kitten:
I normally try to stay away from these sorts of discussions, but, yeah... that didn't make much sense to me, either:

"I can't tell you the details, but we need someone who's unflappable in a tight situation, who can think on the fly, and who can organize a team to break into an incredibly high security vault and get out in one piece...... oh...... and here's a drawing of a piece of the Parthenon for reference..... but... um... yeah, that has *nothing* to do with the engagement." ((innocent whistling))

A few other things that bothered me:

1. Why would anyone spend hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of dollars on an engagement for a midwife? A midwife. Seriously? Midwives still exist and operate today, ya know.... The idea that someone filthy rich would rather deal with the Dollhouse for this sort of common activity is just absurd.

2. Echo's imprint was "wiped" over the phone using the squealing noise of a 54k modem. Niiiice. Sure, the "technology" they use hasn't been explained (yeah, yeah, it's not real), but to insinuate that nothing more than a series of tones and frequencies will cancel out the "real" imprint...? Weak plot device.

3. The Greek government is aware of the existance of the Dollhouse, but the US government is not. Ooookay.........

Is it bad that what you said makes perfect sense to me?

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Monday, March 9, 2009 8:06 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

I was pretty happy with the episode. Liked the sympathy swap between the two guys locked in the vault, and re-booting Taffy in Sierra.

Couple of things, though.

It would seem to make better sense if the entire team were Actives to avoid a possible double-cross, but that'd kind'a kill the story line.

The vault escape was too much a Deus ex Machina for me, what with the thousand-round magazine on the Tec-9 and the security guys who obligingly jumped from behind cover to be shot. How come neither Echo nor the wounded guy got tagged by all the wild fire while going out the pretty narrow door?

Anybody else get the idea that standard procedure if an Active is about to be captured is termination? When it looked like Echo would be caught, DeWitt told Dominic to send in other handlers as backup, because she didn't think Langdon would do what was needed.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, March 9, 2009 8:12 AM

ROBSAD79

I can't believe I waited until today to watch this episode. I'm actually liking the show more and more...
Hope we don't lose this show.

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Monday, March 9, 2009 8:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
I was pretty happy with the episode. Liked the sympathy swap between the two guys locked in the vault, and re-booting Taffy in Sierra.

Couple of things, though.

It would seem to make better sense if the entire team were Actives to avoid a possible double-cross, but that'd kind'a kill the story line.

The vault escape was too much a Deus ex Machina for me, what with the thousand-round magazine on the Tec-9 and the security guys who obligingly jumped from behind cover to be shot. How come neither Echo nor the wounded guy got tagged by all the wild fire while going out the pretty narrow door?

I believe Echo and WG were both wearing invisible body armor (Contrivance class, if I'm not mistaken) manufactured by Deus ex Machina Systems (a subsidiary owned jointly by Blackwater and Haliburton).

Quote:
Anybody else get the idea that standard procedure if an Active is about to be captured is termination?

That's what I'm thinkin'. I also wonder if DeWitt is that balky at neutralizing any Active, or is she more prone to looking out for Echo?

Quote:
When it looked like Echo would be caught, DeWitt told Dominic to send in other handlers as backup, because she didn't think Langdon would do what was needed.

Hmmm...well, maybe she's not that damn balky. But I keep thinking DeWitt is more (or other) than what she seems...

It was like that when we got here!

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Monday, March 9, 2009 8:32 AM

Maybe part of the midwife thing was actually GETTING to the location: it looked like a pretty remote, cold, and inhospitable place. And maybe the parents wanted a natural birth without the sound of a helicopter in the distance. :)

So if midwife Echo had to hike in, I could maybe see why they'd engage a doll.

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Monday, March 9, 2009 9:16 AM

HELL'S KITTEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Maybe part of the midwife thing was actually GETTING to the location: it looked like a pretty remote, cold, and inhospitable place. And maybe the parents wanted a natural birth without the sound of a helicopter in the distance. :)

So if midwife Echo had to hike in, I could maybe see why they'd engage a doll.

Heh. =) Yeah... no, can't buy that. If it was so remote that someone would have had to hike in, how do you explain a full-term mother getting there? Unless you're thinking she was trapped in her home for the last 3+ months? I mean, seriously, it's not like they didn't have time to plan this out. (ZOMG! I'm suddenly pregnant and about to give birth! Quick! Call the Dollhouse!) A midwife can be hired for more than just the birthing; plenty of them can and do stay for months before and after, so they wouldn't have to be so bothered by the sound of a helicopter coming in and leaving the same day.... And that would *still* cost less and make more sense than an Active.

I know it was just a silly, few minutes long clip, but it was just ridiculous. They could have come up with something far better to show the diversity of their Actives.

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Monday, March 9, 2009 9:59 AM