Dollhouse: Needs - Echo and her Active pals have needs, skips Dollhouse. Post comments here. by Haken

OTHER SCIENCE FICTION SERIES

Dollhouse: Needs - Echo and her Active pals have needs, skips Dollhouse. Post comments here.

POSTED BY: HAKEN
UPDATED: Monday, April 6, 2009 07:06
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Friday, April 3, 2009 4:23 PM

Likes to mess with stuffs.

Dollhouse Ep. 108 - "NEEDS"

Echo and her pals, Sierra and Victor, regain their original memories and decide to leave the Dollhouse not so nicely.

Lots of hype during the past few weeks about this one. Will "Needs" fulfill our needs? And more importantly, the needs for the rating to go up so that this isn't some one night stand with the Actives and we end up with only a single season?

Well, post your comments here after the episode and find out where the consensus is.

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Friday, April 3, 2009 5:08 PM

SHINYGOODGUY

I think they oversold the "Awakening" or, better put, they hyped the wrong premise. It should have been "What happens when an Active becomes aware?"
That would have kept us guessing as to what was going on.

IMO Joss made some poor choices "showing" us that DeWitt and company were controlling this whole thing. I figured it out about halfway through the first 30 minutes of the show. They were letting the actives act out to satisfy the "itch", so to speak.

I was not happy with the choices Joss made here to allow us, the audience, to see the DH execs moves in the background. It didn't leave much to the imagination. I felt kind of cheated in a way. I wanted another ep that came totally out of left field like "flowers in the vase" ep.

Now it did leave us a little nugget at the end with the message to Ballard, but it just didn't have that umph I was expecting from all the hype about the Awakening. I even thought this ep would be called Awakenings. It felt as though there was more set up rather than a moving forward of the story line. Except, of course, the backstories of November and Sierra. I wanted more of that.

What you think Haken?

SGG

Tawabawho?

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Friday, April 3, 2009 5:17 PM

PHYRELIGHT

I'm with SGG. They should have left the audience completely in the dark about the Dewitt & Co.'s movements until the very end.

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Friday, April 3, 2009 5:20 PM

NCBROWNCOAT

I agree too.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

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Friday, April 3, 2009 6:43 PM

CUDA77

Like woman, I am a mystery.

I also concur about how it would have been much better had there not been any showing of the Dollhouse brass carrying this out. I still felt it was pretty strong but as said, it could have been better.

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Saturday, April 4, 2009 7:08 AM

CELLARDOOR

Spoilers a-plenty (though I'm still trying to be slightly subtle where I can stand to be):

I liked the return of the ensemble cast in the episode and continued in my apathy towards Echo/Eliza--I did like her scene in the imprint room though, heeee... I almost wish Topher had wet himself or something, the amoral "I'm just the science guy!" loser! I wonder how many WWII-era German scientists said the same thing...

Victor was the highlight in the episode as far as I'm concerned. His acting was better, he was witty and interesting, and that military training he seems to have came out fairly convincingly (cool that it was a part of his ingrained knowledge, like speech and general knowledge, instead of wiped with his memories of identity and such! Is that like the saying, "There's no such thing as an EX-marine"?)

I can't remember Boyd's quip at the end to Dr. Saunders (something like "I'll try to work on that" with being satisfied by the bigger picture and greater good, does anyone remember?), but it seemed like a twist on the normal, stock response. Bah, I can't recall. Regardless, Boyd is great!

Sierra/Priya.... *cry* poor girl! I didn't think her acting was that great, given, but how horrifying for her character. I was waiting for the reveal of which one (or more) actives is there against her or his will. It made Victor's protectiveness even more endearing.

Mellie/November surprised me quite a bit. Her's seems like a unique variation from the others' stories, but I guess we still don't know a lot of background. Oh, and my female opinion: I really like that she's got a more normal body-type. They're not all supermodels in the Dollhouse, though admittedly she isn't exactly on regular engagements like the supermodel-types are (I'm absolutely glad for her sake. I'm kinda creeped out by the fact that Joss' work caused it momentarily to occur to me that she's missing out on the fun--the Dollhouse is NOT fun, CellarDoor, duh).

Well, it's looking like a cancellation is sure, but... I still thought it was a good episode.

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Saturday, April 4, 2009 8:04 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

It started out super entertaining, when they first woke up. It was interesting to learn more about the actives, in general. It was kind of disappointing that it wasn't actually the strength of their own wills pulling them out of their stupor. The message seemed to be that the Dollhouse has total control and you just can't beat them. That makes me sad. There's still Alpha, though, who apparently beat them and is working against them...

Quote:
Originally posted by CellarDoor:
I really like that she's got a more normal body-type.

November is a hottie! Gotta love the curves.

[/sig]

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Saturday, April 4, 2009 8:43 AM

EVILDINOSAUR

I loved this episode, I didn't see any promos or hype, I don't watch much fox, so maybe that helped. But I continue to be in love with this show.

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

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Saturday, April 4, 2009 10:43 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by CellarDoor:
Mellie/November surprised me quite a bit. Her's seems like a unique variation from the others' stories, but I guess we still don't know a lot of background. Oh, and my female opinion: I really like that she's got a more normal body-type. They're not all supermodels in the Dollhouse, though admittedly she isn't exactly on regular engagements like the supermodel-types are (I'm absolutely glad for her sake. I'm kinda creeped out by the fact that Joss' work caused it momentarily to occur to me that she's missing out on the fun--the Dollhouse is NOT fun, CellarDoor, duh).

Actually, much like PhoenixRose feels somewhat dubbed on the whole 'impulse from within' thingy (or lack thereof, rather), I likewise feel cheated - or perhaps 'conned' even -- with Mellie's story: it smacks ostentatiously of moral justification for what they're doing. But lest we forget, Caroline is just a young girl being pimped out to every Internet fatso with a big wallet. For sex, really (after all, like the fat guy said: 'It is a fantasy'). So, DeWitt can sell her pitch elsewhere, cuz I'm not buying. LOL, I'm actually getting upset as I type this. :) Point is, don't try and sell it for anything else than it is. I can't stand that. Yes, "The lie of it."

Dr. Saunders continues to confound me. So pretty! And so kind-hearted... it seems. And yet, uncharacteristically cold in a way (or maybe I just want it to be 'uncharacteristic', which is where my confusion about her comes in?). Victor played well. The actor can truly play entirely different characters (unlike Eliza, for whom I nonetheless continue to have a soft-spot).

And like PhoenixRose, I was kinda hoping that somehow this show would, erm, show, that the human spirit triumphs, even when highly surpressed/oppressed. And now, not so much.

Also, after the very first show, I believe, I said something like Topher's philosophical musings never really clicking with me. I strongly felt that same sense of off-ness again this time, what with the whole premise of it being in the Actives best interest for them not to remember/suffer. For all the absurd womanizing the man did, Kirk got it spot-on right for a change in Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, when he said:

Damn it, Bones, you're a doctor. You know that pain and guilt can't be taken away with a wave of a magic wand. They're the things we carry with us, the things that make us who we are. If we lose them, we lose ourselves. I don't want my pain taken away! I need my pain!

So does Mellie.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Saturday, April 4, 2009 12:18 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

There are a few things in this episode that really stood out for me:

1) The way they remembered things could have been smoother, I thought. I guess maybe those types of things wouldn't have been smooth necessarily, but I could see the hand of the writers. "Look, we'll put a baby carriage here so November can remember her kid (and we can save time)!"

2) Dr. Saunders didn't come off too favorably at the end, there.

3) It's weird, but now I actually don't like the Ballard story line, because it's mostly a distraction from the main one. The dream scene in the beginning with him was alright, though I was worried it was real until November suddenly appeared the way she did.

4) They really should have saved the reveal that DeWitt was in on it, and Dr. Saunders thought of it, for the end. Would have been way cooler.

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Saturday, April 4, 2009 1:10 PM

CELLARDOOR

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:

Mellie's story: it smacks ostentatiously of moral justification for what they're doing. But lest we forget, Caroline is just a young girl being pimped out to every Internet fatso with a big wallet. For sex, really (after all, like the fat guy said: 'It is a fantasy'). So, DeWitt can sell her pitch elsewhere, cuz I'm not buying. LOL, I'm actually getting upset as I type this. :) Point is, don't try and sell it for anything else than it is. I can't stand that. Yes, "The lie of it."

Right, and perhaps I should clarify: I'm not happy Mellie is in the Dollhouse, even if it's supposedly to "ease her pain." But whatever reason landed her there, her circumstances and engagements seem slightly better than the situations that Caroline and Priya landed in for example.

No, DeWitt has not managed to sell anything to me yet (well, probably she has, but not that I'm consciously aware of; such is the nature of grey areas...). There's got to be a plan...D? that works better for people than A) suicide B) prison or C) dollhouse. Other atrocities notwithstanding, we also see that DeWitt's altruistic surface is undercut by the presence of undeniable victims like Priya/Sierra, and that's just not selling the whole concept to me, nope. But if you're saying Mellie is just as much of a victim and being abused by the system, then I agree.

Dr. Saunders--I haven't figured her out yet, and I'm glad about that I guess. There seem to be conflicting aspects to her though, as you said Asarian, the simultaneous warmth towards the actives and scientific coldness towards the situation.

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:

And like PhoenixRose, I was kinda hoping that somehow this show would, erm, show, that the human spirit triumphs, even when highly surpressed/oppressed. And now, not so much.

I don't know... if they had that essence as part of themselves before, even if the brass execs explain it away as unresolved conflict that finally got resolved, then doesn't it stand to reason that such essences, part of their innermost selves, might still leave traces behind? We saw a couple aspects in Victor after all: he may have gotten the girl, but does that resolve his military trauma? I doubt his flashback from Echoes related to "getting the girl." Also, Mellie is clearly experiencing jealousy over Caroline, and I don't think that crying over her baby's grave did anything to relieve that tension.

(My point: simplifying the conflict into a single event may not wipe the glitches). The human spirit may yet triumph in spite of the Dollhouse's best efforts; we just saw a very discouraging setback in 'Needs." I hope the show lasts that long!

Awesome and appropriate quote of Kirk's by the way... Whew, that's powerful stuff.

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Saturday, April 4, 2009 1:13 PM

HAKEN

Likes to mess with stuffs.

Quote:
Originally posted by Shinygoodguy:
Now it did leave us a little nugget at the end with the message to Ballard, but it just didn't have that umph I was expecting from all the hype about the Awakening. I even thought this ep would be called Awakenings. It felt as though there was more set up rather than a moving forward of the story line. Except, of course, the backstories of November and Sierra. I wanted more of that.

What you think Haken?

Honestly? The episode didn't do much for me. Maybe I just didn't get it.

What was the point of the episode? Everyone has needs? Fulfill those needs and we're all happy people who turn into docile sheep because we can't solve our own problems and can't protect ourselves from the big bad world?

I "really" wanted the series to go into a different direction with this episode. I know it's been done before in series like 'Dark Angel' and 'Pretender,' but I "really" wanted Caroline to save the day and escape in a dramatic way because Caroline should be "better" than Echo and the Dollhouse.

The series would actually be more interesting if Caroline had Alpha's story. If Caroline did actually escape from the Dollhouse and has to learn to come to terms with her past (or try to regain her past) and deal with her current situation with the Dollhouse, Rossum Corp, etc. on her own using the skills she acquired while being an Active.

I think that would tell a more compelling story. To say that although a person can be anyone to deal with any situation, it's a lot better to be oneself and work with what one has through human ingenuity and compassion to deal with a situation that may seem lost.

And, really, I don't like to compare, but every week that I watch Dollhouse, I keep thinking that Jessica Alba as Dark Angel does a better Active act than Eliza Dushku as Echo. Just my opinion, of course.

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Saturday, April 4, 2009 2:14 PM

STOWEAWAY

I enjoyed the episode as a whole. Just some random thought on it....

I think Dr. Saunders believes that the dolls are already lost forever. I think that's why she seems eternally melancholy. She couldn't help Caroline/Echo because the escape was her idea and she knew she needed to let it play out.

Ballard actually seeing Caroline on an assignment was a big turn in the story for me. But now they need to push that along. I'm losing patience with the Ballard side-story waiting for something else to happen there.

I think they "mis-diagnosed" the needs of Viktor & Sierra. If all Sierra needed to do was confront who hurt her, she would have dropped unconscious as soon as Viktor punched out that dude. Right? She's clearly been hurt by multiple people. Maybe she needed to feel like someone was protecting her for a change. Once she knew Viktor was looking out for her, then she was done.
Likewise, Viktor talked about seeing someone hurt Sierra & he couldn't do anything about it. This time he protected her and defended her. Maybe that's what he needed.

And hearing Topher and DeWitt talk about the Dollhouse only served to convince me of how thoroughly twisted & manipulative they are. The load of crap they dole out to Caroline is just plain sick.

And, yeah, I wish they had kept us in the dark about allowing the actives to escape. But I've also come to realize something while watching Dollhouse & Castle. Even though these shows are fantastic and have actors & writers that we love, they are also developed so that they appeal to the general public. Intelligent Whedonites like us don't want to have our stories spoon-fed to us. We love to discover layers & surprises. But I think they run the risk of losing baseline viewers who might switch over to SuperNanny so they don't have to keep guessing what's going on. It's the sad result of wanting our heroes to have mainstream success.

--------------------------------------------------
Check out http://www.americasfunniesttshirts.com for hilarious shirts at a great price.

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Saturday, April 4, 2009 5:16 PM

PACHELBEL

Quote:
Originally posted by Haken:
Honestly? The episode didn't do much for me. Maybe I just didn't get it.

What was the point of the episode? Everyone has needs? Fulfill those needs and we're all happy people who turn into docile sheep because we can't solve our own problems and can't protect ourselves from the big bad world?

And even if that were the case, didn't the Dollhouse execs pick an extremely risky method of fulfilling those needs? Talk about running the risk of being exposed ... and it just so happens that Caroline got a call off to Ballard prior to "freeing" all the other actives.

I completely did not buy the behaviors of Echo, Mellie, Sierra, and Victor. We just escaped from this crazy place; they're after us; we have almost no idea who we are. Let's all go our separate ways! Yeah, good plan.

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Saturday, April 4, 2009 8:18 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

I wanted to see Topher fry.

Joss finally admitted that drugs are used for mind control - "anti-psychotics and sedatives".

Victor: "Co-ed showers?!"
Mellie: "No big deal."
-Dollhouse, Needs

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Sunday, April 5, 2009 2:20 AM

STINKINGROSE

I enjoyed it, and I'm waiting to see where they take us from here.

November needs to greive. What about that brought her to the point of putting her life on hold for five years for a devil's bargain? I still ask "How did her daughter die?" and "Why was it in the graveyard outside what appears to be a convent or Catholic school? Was she a nun? Did the daughter have a disease? Did she beat her to death? There's a lot more story behind the story.

Echo we know about.

I don't think that having Victor punch wassizname would have been the trigger. Sierra needed to feel that *she'd* confronted that man. It's her emotional needs and perceptions that were the trigger. It might have gone on until she'd killed him if the wounds went deep enough.

I'm terribly sorry to ruin a damsel in distress fantasy, but frankly having a man beat someone else up for me is not my idea of dealing with something and wouldn't be nearly as psychologically satisfying as handling it myself. I don't want to be rescued, I want to make sure it stops and doesn't happen again.

Victor we didn't get much on. Maybe he's another Ballard who got dragged in trying to save Sierra? Maybe he's an ex-cop/soldier/whatever who failed to save a female from danger? He lost a girlfriend to some other man?

I think that we're supposed to be getting "the lie of it" and they're having to bang us over the head to remind netxecs that they're not saying this is a good and happy place, but the people running the Dollhouse may actually believe it is. Maybe it's not being written for Whedonites. Maybe it's being written to fulfill Joss' feminist (personist? There are male dolls.) agenda and make the masses stop and think just the eensiest bit about objectifying others and how that takes away their humanity. Maybe it's a poke in the eye to the entire industry that uses actors and actresses like kleenex and it's all a big commentary. "Why do you write these lines for people and put these ideas in the public's head?" "I'm just the writer guy, talk to the studio heads.."

Who knows? Not me. Possibly not even the directors and writers at this point, we're only five or so eps into the thing.

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Sunday, April 5, 2009 7:32 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Haken:
What was the point of the episode? Everyone has needs? Fulfill those needs and we're all happy people who turn into docile sheep because we can't solve our own problems and can't protect ourselves from the big bad world?

I think the point, however misguided it may have been, was along the suggested lines of the alleged mole: if people want a resistance movement, give 'em one! Only a faux, 'controlled' one. And, in this case, if there are unresolved issues that need redressing, don't frantically try and suppress them, but give the Actives what they need; only, again, in a controlled fashion. The psychology behind that -- ethics aside -- is sound.

Quote:
Originally posted by CellarDoor:
Dr. Saunders--I haven't figured her out yet, and I'm glad about that I guess. There seem to be conflicting aspects to her though, as you said Asarian, the simultaneous warmth towards the actives and scientific coldness towards the situation.

Glad you noticed it, too. Actually, I'm kind of a softie, so Dr. Saunders is really the sort of gentle soul I'd normally gravitate towards, show like this. 'Cept that, especially in this episode, she ain't that sweet at all. And maybe that's a problem with the show altogether? I mean, you can't really like the Dollhouse staff. They all have their endearing moments, but soon as you begin to think they might be okay, they say stupid stuff like: "I'm just the tech guy." Or rationalize their medical complicity.

Quote:

(My point: simplifying the conflict into a single event may not wipe the glitches). The human spirit may yet triumph in spite of the Dollhouse's best efforts;

I think you're right. If there's one overall, persistent theme, then I'd say it's the ultimate absence of control; the whole Jurassic Park argument: containment is the illusion. All Dolls are inevitably headed to become like Alpha. It's just a matter of time. Like Topher said so poignantly: "Couldn't. Shouldn't. Did." Until such time they enter the, erm, Composite Event Horizon, the Dolls can be controlled; but clearly in every episode we witness some thing they missed: from wipes that aren't to man-reactions, to thinking they can fix a glitch with a single stitch. Time and again the Dollhouse staff encounters things they couldn't predict (hence, control). Like the unforeseen act of Caroline making a call to Ballard. Indeed, "Life will find a way."

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sunday, April 5, 2009 8:36 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

I thought it was a great episode. It maybe wasn't as strong as 'the man on the street' but it was interesting to see how devious the Dollhouse can be and I thought it a particularly delicious twist that sweet Amy Acker came up with this twisted plan.

It continues to improve for me, and I loved the soft focus on Ballard as he approached the Tech guy in the store. Furthers my notion that he indeed is Alpha

but anyway. It was good. Didn't see all the hype so that had no effect on me and maybe that helps. I generally don't like to see clips before an episode as it takes away the impact.

Some very interesting developments here from everyone, I wish I could go into them some but I haven't the time.

Lets hope Fox take a risk with it for a second season...

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Sunday, April 5, 2009 9:34 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Blah. Seems like it's just back to more of the boring same-old at the Dollhouse.

I think I've figured out what it is I don't like about it most: It's basically The Initiative from Buffy Season 4. There's just nothing about these people who run the Dollhouse that I don't despise. I don't find any sympathetic characters in ANY of the execs or staff, and very little among the "dolls" - especially since every show, they're doing some shady deal or other themselves (only they're not REALLY themselves, right?).

In short, there's just nobody to really like on the show, or to identify or bond with.

And you pretty much always knew that The Initiative was going to fail, miserably... so why make a whole damn show that's just basically them all over again? And if you do, do you really expect that it WON'T fail?

I'm about to ditch Dollhouse from my DVR's "record all episodes" queue, and write it off as an unfortunate misfire from Joss, alongside that "Alien" movie he did that was such a trainwreck...

Mike

Just lying smiling in the dark,
Shooting stars around your heart,
Dreams come bouncing in your head
pure and simple every time.
Now you're crying in your sleep;
I wish you'd never learnt to weep.
Don't sell the dreams you should be keeping
pure and simple every time.
"Pure", by Lightning Seeds

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Monday, April 6, 2009 5:42 AM

ZEEK

So, what are we guessing Caroline did to finally get her to join the Dollhouse? I'm almost thinking she played a part in Alpha. What if she found out about the Dollhouse and was trying to free them? She might have messed with Alpha's programming or something to try to free him. Then she ends up unleashing a killer who murders a bunch of the dolls she's hoping to save. It might leave her feeling guilty enough to want to erase those memories. It would explain Dominick's hatred of her. It would explain Alpha leaving her alive. I guess one of the problems is her memory of him killing the other dolls in the shower. If that was his first attack and she was already a doll then the timeline wouldn't work. If that was a subsequent attack then it's alright.

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Monday, April 6, 2009 5:50 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Echo was in the dollhouse, as a doll, when Alpha flipped out. So no.
She snuck into Rossum with the man she loved, who she'd convinced to help her, and he was killed. She felt responsible, and she was in trouble because she'd seen things she shouldn't have. She was told the consequences of her actions - all the consequences - would be erased. So, with little other choice, she signed.

[/sig]

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Monday, April 6, 2009 6:43 AM

ZEEK

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Echo was in the dollhouse, as a doll, when Alpha flipped out. So no.
She snuck into Rossum with the man she loved, who she'd convinced to help her, and he was killed. She felt responsible, and she was in trouble because she'd seen things she shouldn't have. She was told the consequences of her actions - all the consequences - would be erased. So, with little other choice, she signed.

DeWitt said something about her and Caroline beating around the bush for 2 years IIRC. Those events didn't seem to last 2 years. Plus Caroline from her Dollhouse interview looked much more worn out and ragged than she did after infiltrating Rossum. I think there's much more backstory to Caroline. We just saw part 1.

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Monday, April 6, 2009 6:43 AM

BYTEMITE

I don't relate to the characters, but they have gotten to the point where they interest me. Whenever someone goes into the chair I cringe a little bit, because clearly it hurts a little bit or is some kind of shock to their system.

When proto-Caroline was about to imprint Topher, immoral as he is, I felt scared for him. I'm just the tech guy, I'm just doing my job. Just an excuse, but I felt sympathy for him in that moment. I think that scene was really well acted.

What they do is horrible. None of the dollhouse staff are good people, anyone who has any sympathy is having to swallow it to some degree or another. But no one deserves what they do to the dolls, not the loss of identity or memory or personality, definitely not the rape (in Sierra's case).

I'm also wondering if that might be a turning point for Topher sometime soon. Character development-wise, I can see nothing more likely to change someone's perspectives than having to face themselves what they do to others. I really hope he doesn't just shrug this off and does some real introspective over this.

The Tech guy Ballard goes to see... He only got a small part in this episode, but from what little I saw of his shop, it seems like the ideal place for an wiping/imprinting chair, doesn't it?

When Echo is leading the other dolls out of the house, Boyd said it best: just a game or not, that was really impressive.

And I suspect that allowing the dolls some development and wiping them won't be quite the fix the staff are hoping for. ;) In fact, I suspect if the dolls maintain some echo of this on their blank slate, like we've seen happen before, I think this could only accellerate a true composite/awakening event.

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Monday, April 6, 2009 7:06 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

In "Echoes" the events seemed to follow one into the other. Caroline says "I know what I saw." and we know that DeWitt says (paraphrase) "What if actions didn't have to have consequences?" from the pilot. We also know she was in the dollhouse when Alpha flipped out, and he killed her handler. She was already a doll. Maybe the two years refers to how long she's been there, I don't know, but her landing in the dollhouse had nothing to do with Alpha, this I'm sure of. Unless, of course, her boyfriend didn't really die, and he's Alpha. I doubt that, though.

[/sig]

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