Will Smith's I, Robot... looking back, was it great or what? by chrisisall

Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:
The Matrix itself is just too much of an icon to me.

Every time I start watching it I think- why not just grow & use whales? They must put out a LOT more btu's than a human...
And from there it's all down hill. Now I just watch it for the fight scenes.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, May 29, 2009 11:06 AM

DEWRASTLER

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:
The Matrix itself is just too much of an icon to me.

Every time I start watching it I think- why not just grow & use whales? They must put out a LOT more btu's than a human...
And from there it's all down hill.

The laughing Chrisisall

I never actually thought of that. Why did you have to go out and start making sense like that?

Now I guess I'll just have to enjoy for the human struggle and the themes of breaking mental barriers to reach your true potential.

________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

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Friday, May 29, 2009 11:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:

I never actually thought of that. Why did you have to go out and start making sense like that?

But, uhh... lower animals cannot accept the programs & die, or something....

Better?

The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, May 30, 2009 7:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Every time I start watching it I think- why not just grow & use whales? They must put out a LOT more btu's than a human...

Or, better still, hit the scriptwriter upside the head with a nice, heavy physics textbook and then just take whatever it was you were planning on feeding to the humans/whales and burn it to release the energy efficiently.

Animal metabolisms don't generate energy - they consume it (or, rather, they increase entropy and turn useful, accessible chemical energy into dissapated, low grade heat energy).

Now, if the human brains were being used as a computing resource... maybe the machines couldn't replicate human creativity and intuition (which would tie in with all the Architect's psychobabble about the need for subconscious choice) we might be talking. Even the old "humans only use 10% of their brains" myth would be better than defying thermodynamics.

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Saturday, May 30, 2009 7:53 AM

LEOPARDFLAN

Speaking of illogical, wtf is up with the PILLS?! That really gets me. Like, the pill is given WITHIN THE MATRIX PROGRAM, so it can't possibly work on the actual body! And if that's just the signal for the guys to go fetch the body and unplug it, couldn't they just ASK HIM TO TELL THEM instead of bothering with the pill business? grrr

okay,

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Saturday, May 30, 2009 7:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:
I agree. I always thought it was a great movie and didn't get the props it deserved.

I went to see iRobot it expecting the worst - an action movie with gorram all to do with the book (which was an anthology, anyway!) As it was, I was pleasantly surprised - the overall plot may have been Hollywood, but the themes explored (including the way that a really intelligent robot would reason its way out of the three laws) were straight out of Asimov's Robot stories.

However, the crass product placement with the trainers was unforgivable - as was making Susan Calvin (an elderly iron maiden figure in the books) a hottie.

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Saturday, May 30, 2009 7:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ImNotHere:
as was making Susan Calvin (an elderly iron maiden figure in the books) a hottie.

I liked that she was attractive, but not in a pin-up way (see: Dr. Christmas Jones- The World Is Not Enough, heh heh).

The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, May 30, 2009 8:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by LeopardFlan:
Like, the pill is given WITHIN THE MATRIX PROGRAM, so it can't possibly work on the actual body!

Its not a pill - its an icon for a trace program, probably using a security loophole in the Matrix code that makes coppertops react to what they eat. Neo "runs" the program by swallowing it. In the same way, a bottle of beer in the Matrix is an icon for a program that simulates drunkenness and a cheesecake can contain a virus which... well... you know.

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Saturday, May 30, 2009 8:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ImNotHere:
a bottle of beer in the Matrix is an icon for a program that simulates drunkenness

And in real life, beer makes The Matrix make sense... temporarily at any rate.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, May 30, 2009 8:15 AM

LEOPARDFLAN

Quote:
Originally posted by ImNotHere:
Quote:
Originally posted by LeopardFlan:
Like, the pill is given WITHIN THE MATRIX PROGRAM, so it can't possibly work on the actual body!

Its not a pill - its an icon for a trace program, probably using a security loophole in the Matrix code that makes coppertops react to what they eat. Neo "runs" the program by swallowing it. In the same way, a bottle of beer in the Matrix is an icon for a program that simulates drunkenness and a cheesecake can contain a virus which... well... you know.

Aha. Now that makes a kinda sense!

Still think the Matrix's plot is unsensibly illogical, though... or possibly I'm just thinking too much of the sequels (

), haven't seen the original in a while...

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Saturday, May 30, 2009 11:12 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

I liked it. Good flick.

The T.Rex they call JANE!

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Sunday, May 31, 2009 3:48 AM

CLJOHNSTON108

Well, I was first in line for The Matrix (and I loved the sequels, dammit!) at Grauman's Chinese, which is also where I saw I, Robot.
I won't say the one is better than the other, because they're different stories altogether (I'd compare it to Minority Report, though), but I was thoroughly impressed with Proyas' film!
I know many people refused to even see it because it wasn't the book, but you really couldn't have translated that to film as written, anyway.

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Sunday, May 31, 2009 9:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I liked it. Good flick.

I totally didn't see the robotic arm thing coming; I'm so gullible sometimes while watching a flick the first time.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, May 31, 2009 9:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by cljohnston108:
Well, I was first in line for The Matrix (and I loved the sequels, dammit!)

So, not so much a fan of the laws of thermodynamics I take it?

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, May 31, 2009 9:24 AM

CLJOHNSTON108

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

So, not so much a fan of the laws of thermodynamics I take it?

Actually, I am. Is that the only aspect you were paying attention to?
I was able to find a few other levels on which to appreciate those films.

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Sunday, May 31, 2009 10:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by cljohnston108:

I was able to find a few other levels on which to appreciate those films.

Just bein' nit-picky science nerd with ya; the first one still has great stuff in it for me.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, May 31, 2009 10:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by cljohnston108:
I was able to find a few other levels on which to appreciate those films.

Of course, The Matrix was deeply awesome film. If only:
(a) they'd found some other bit of technobabble as an excuse for the human farms, and
(b) "Revolutions" had continued in the direction suggested at the end of "Reloaded", with the "real world" and Zion turning out to be just another part of the Matrix - rather than giving Neo superpowers that worked in the real world because of (mumble mumble blah).

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Sunday, May 31, 2009 1:07 PM

In the first flick, the mission statement was to destroy the Matrix. The post 9-11 sequels tried to take a more live-N'-let-live tone, and that felt like a cheat to me. Other's mileage obviously varied.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, May 31, 2009 4:02 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I liked it. Good flick.

I totally didn't see the robotic arm thing coming; I'm so gullible sometimes while watching a flick the first time.

The laughing Chrisisall

It was a nice twist, and made added incentive / conflict for Will Smith's character.

The T.Rex they call JANE!

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Monday, June 1, 2009 7:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

It was a nice twist, and made added incentive / conflict for Will Smith's character.

Not to mention that it gave him the ability to NOT get killed in the final battle.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, June 1, 2009 8:06 AM

WASHNWEAR

...might as well BUMP...yeah, go ahead and BUMP...

donttalkbackjustdrivethecarshutyourmouthiknowwhatyouaredontsaynothinkeepyourhandsonthewheeldontturnaroundthisisforreal

Still...what would Rorschach do?

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Monday, June 1, 2009 8:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by WASHnwear:
...might as well BUMP...yeah, go ahead and BUMP...

JUMP?

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, June 7, 2009 9:28 PM

I robot was lame. Another lame fresh prince remake.

Even now, Matrix holds up. It was state of the art, and not much has surpassed it. Many have tried. The first sequel was good as well. I think Joss jumped into the 3rd one, to kill of many of the characters.

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Monday, June 8, 2009 3:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I robot was lame.

Wrong.

Quote:
Another lame fresh prince remake.

Wrong.

Quote:

Even now, Matrix holds up.

Right.

Quote:
It was state of the art, and not much has surpassed it.

Wrong.

Quote:
I think Joss jumped into the 3rd one, to kill of many of the characters.

Wrong.

Wow, one post with SO MANY wrongs.
I think you need some kind of award for that.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, June 8, 2009 7:50 AM

MALACHITE

I thought the Matrix was awesome and I Robot was quite good.

I'm interested in your point about why the robots harvested humans when they could have picked something more efficient. How do Matrix buffs answer the question? I'm wondering if it has to do with the fact that humans created the robots to be slaves, so, now that the robots are in power, they "feel" that enslaving the humans in return is proper justice. It allows them to always be able to remind themselves of their mastery over that which dominated them. I also wonder if the robots consider humans their "father" in some ways, and can't bring themselves to totally annihilate their creators.

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Monday, June 8, 2009 8:14 AM

If you really watched the movies you would see the Wachoskis were always about making people think. By the end of the trilogy who is good who is bad starts to blur.

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Monday, June 8, 2009 8:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Malachite:

I'm interested in your point about why the robots harvested humans when they could have picked something more efficient.

A case could be made that the Matrix needs the drama of a programmed human existence to have a sense of purpose- how meaningless would it be to have everything run smoothly with cattle in tubes, imagining that they're eating grass in fields all day?
Of course Agent Smith would never admit this.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, June 8, 2009 8:23 AM

I think the matrix trilogy was overall way better then I,Robot. I mean I,Robot dealt with A.I. and what not, but the Matrix dealt with so much more you could watch those movies 10 times and figure something new out everytime. They aren't just movies about A.I. and robots, but they deal with the nature of reality, control, free will, determinism, tons of religious themes. Oh and if you watch any action movie made in the last 10 years and you see someone fly across the screen to kick someone or a gun fight break out or a car chase and everything goes in slow motion that's the Matrix.

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Monday, June 8, 2009 8:51 AM

I believe the themes explored in I, Robot are much more extensive than you seem to indicate.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, June 8, 2009 8:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Malachite:
I thought the Matrix was awesome and I Robot was quite good.

I'm interested in your point about why the robots harvested humans when they could have picked something more efficient. How do Matrix buffs answer the question? I'm wondering if it has to do with the fact that humans created the robots to be slaves, so, now that the robots are in power, they "feel" that enslaving the humans in return is proper justice. It allows them to always be able to remind themselves of their mastery over that which dominated them. I also wonder if the robots consider humans their "father" in some ways, and can't bring themselves to totally annihilate their creators.

You might consider humans to be a non-efficient source of energy, but the huge population provides such a huge resource. Why do we feed rabbits, if they are not an efficient source of energy? becuase they are fairly effortless, just feed them and you have more suddenly, then you can eat them. They consume resources which are already abundant, which result from solar energy, and are low maintenance.
All the machines had to do was harness this energy, they don't care if the humans expire, they seem to keep reproducing. And the machines are not able to harness the solar power fully, so confiscating energy from living beings which do convert solar power in various forms to energy is beneficial.
Plus, keeping humans may be sort of a backup plan - humans created the machines, and if a problem comes up, maybe some humans will be abel to find a solution.
The Matrix may seem like a big deal to the human batteries, but it's not so much for the machines - they likely hardly notice.

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Monday, June 8, 2009 9:01 PM

They are the same themes explored in the Matrix movies. Namely the animatrix the second resistance. But they are also explored in all Matrix movies, on top of many other themes and philosophical debates which are also woven into the Matrix movies. Also, you might want to check out Ghost in a Shell. It influenced the Matrix movies alot. I,Robot seems to take alot of cues from that movie as well. In the end the Matrix is a truly innovative piece of work. While I,Robot is an entertaining adaptation of the book, its themes seem to have been scaled back and only explored to a certain extent, to allow for a Will Smith charged summer blockbuster.

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Monday, June 8, 2009 9:20 PM

Well it's not only humans that are the source of energy. The harvested energy from humans is then combined with a form of fusion, to give the machines all the power they need. Also, the sun has been blocked out and all life on the planet has died, except humans. Also the machines take over a couple centuries in the future natural resources would be alot lower. Then a war rages for at least 100 years. So we are talking a good 400 years in the future on an earth with the enviroment of a nuclear winter. Also, in a good Wachowski fashion nothing is what it seems. Are the humans enslaved? Humans in the Matrix live way more comfort filled enjoyable lives. Where as humans in the real world live in a miserable existance eating syntheized protein mush. They live in a underground city with no sunlight. So to a certain extent humans were enslaved in the sense that they were not given the choice of living in the real world or the Matrix. However, given the choice how many people would choose the Matrix over the real world? That's up in the air. And Humans may have created AI in the world of the Matrix movies, but the machines of the Machine city the ones that run the Matrix are much more advanced then the ones created by humans.

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Monday, June 8, 2009 9:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by signo060:
Well it's not only humans that are the source of energy. The harvested energy from humans is then combined with a form of fusion, to give the machines all the power they need. Also, the sun has been blocked out and all life on the planet has died, except humans. Also the machines take over a couple centuries in the future natural resources would be alot lower. Then a war rages for at least 100 years. So we are talking a good 400 years in the future on an earth with the enviroment of a nuclear winter. Also, in a good Wachowski fashion nothing is what it seems. Are the humans enslaved? Humans in the Matrix live way more comfort filled enjoyable lives. Where as humans in the real world live in a miserable existance eating syntheized protein mush. They live in a underground city with no sunlight. So to a certain extent humans were enslaved in the sense that they were not given the choice of living in the real world or the Matrix. However, given the choice how many people would choose the Matrix over the real world? That's up in the air. And Humans may have created AI in the world of the Matrix movies, but the machines of the Machine city the ones that run the Matrix are much more advanced then the ones created by humans.

Light energy is not the only solar power produced or provided by the Sun.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 7:14 AM

Yes well its a SCIENCE FICTION movie, not a science movie. The human body heat + fusion combo is not around today so we can never know how much energy it produces, which is why its a good story device for a SCIENCE FICTION movie.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 9:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I believe the themes explored in I, Robot are much more extensive than you seem to indicate.

Of course, they are easier to spot if you've read the books - and not just "I, Robot" but the other robot collections and the Elija Bailey books (...up until the point when Asimov decided to retcon all his novels into the same universe).

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 10:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by signo060:
Yes well its a SCIENCE FICTION movie, not a science movie.

Yes, but good Science Fiction doesn't needlessly flout known science.

Quote:

The human body heat + fusion combo is not around today so we can never know how much energy it produces

ANS: less energy than the "new type of fusion" plus whatever you'd get from burning the food instead of feeding it to humans.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 10:16 AM

The science in "I, Robot" was much better grounded in reality than in "The Matrix."

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 11:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
The science in "I, Robot" was much better grounded in reality than in "The Matrix."

Yes, because if you could make enough positrons and stop them annihilating any electrons they encountered then "positronic brains" would be so almost as good as electronic brains...

Of course, picking holes in the technobabble is part of the entertainment value.

The problem with the Matrix as SciFi (as opposed to seriously cool eyecandy) is that the entire premise hinges on the machines needing to keep the human race alive, conscious and just sufficiently unhappy not to go mad.

In neither case is the "moral of the story" about science, really: "I, Robot" is about how easily simplistic morality can be turned around to justify evil (quite topical in our insanely risk-averse modern society) while "The Matrix" is about, er, something really deep and meaningless about "choice" (sorry, I was busy enjoying the coolness).

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 11:38 AM

First off someone asked some questions about the Matrix I was answering them. Second my point was that The Matrix like I,Robot is a work of fiction and debating the science of fictional stories is pointless. Third this was about I,Robot the movie not the books. I,Robot the movie would not have happened if it wasn't for the Matrix. Number one because AI stories were brought back into the lime light thanks to the Matrix. Number Two every action scene in I,Robot is a Matrix slow motion, bullet time rip. Will Smith flying through the air on a motorcycle pulling out two guns in slow motion and shooting Robots, is such a ridiculous Matrix rip-off, its not even funny. Number three I,Robot is another "Time for Will Smith to save the world movie". He plays the same role we have seen him in too many times. The outsider detective who is thought to have some crazy ideas about a suspect that leads to a plot of world destruction. Hmmm that well that sounds alot like Men in Black. Was I the only one to notice that scene when he chased that robot down at the beginning of the movie was alot like him chasing the alien down at the beginning of Men In Black? My final word about this: The Matrix is a better movie because it was original. I,Robot was a corporate hollywood adaptation of book, with recycled story lines that while getting across the themes of the story without making people think to much, fails to execute in other areas namely action (where lame rip-offs of Matrix style action just degrade the film) and special effects.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 11:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by signo060:
The Matrix is a better movie because it was original. I,Robot was a corporate hollywood adaptation of book

I can't argue with this.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 8:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by signo060:
The Matrix is a better movie because it was original. I,Robot was a corporate hollywood adaptation of book
I can't argue with this.

Wrongisall finally gets it right.

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Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by signo060:
Number Two every action scene in iRobot is a Matrix slow motion, bullet time rip.

Every scene in every action movie for a few years after The Matrix seemed to be a Matrix bullet-time ripoff - not fair to single out iRobot!

What I would say that The Matrix and iRobot have in common was that on both occasions I walked out of the cinema thinking "wow!".

Sadly, in the latter case it was "wow, that only pissed on Asimov's grave a little bit!" - I'd been expecting far, far worse.

Quote:

debating the science of fictional stories is pointless

I'd disagree with that - good science fiction tries to get as much of the science right as it can, and to keep the fantasy science & prediction self-consistent - picking holes is part of the fun. It helps to avoid fantasy science which we know is impossible (even FTL travel is a bit out of vogue - yay Firefly!)

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Wednesday, June 10, 2009 5:33 PM

ROCKETJOCK

The original, early-draft idea of the nature of The Matrix was that, lacking a energy source as abundant as solar power to run their hardware, the AI programs adapted to running themselves on WETWARE, ie, the human nervous system, linked into a kind of biologic mainframe. Humans wouldn't have been "coppertops" so much as "microchips". This would have required keeping the humans both alive and sentient/educated so as to keep the minds usable to the (now parasitic) AIs. Presumably the fusion power would be used to power grow-lights for some kind of farming to feed the humans, thus avoiding the closed-loop power paradox.

Unfortunately, that idea was deemed too cerebral and esoteric by some studio suits, so they required the idea be dumbed down to the "Humans as power source" idea.

On the subject of "I, Robot"-- It's not a bad Sci-Fi murder mystery in its own right, but, like the Tristar Godzilla movie, I would have enjoyed it a lot more if it had a different name, since it had next to nothing to do with the book. This is, by the way, another example of executive interference -- the draft had nothing to do with Asimov's work except for using the three laws -- which Asimov specifically threw into public domain, so long as he was credited as their creator. Despite this, the legal department decided that they had to acquire the rights to the book to avoid the possibility of a nuisance lawsuit, and since they now had the rights, why not shoot for name recognition?

Thus we see that the true "Phantom Menace" of SF film is Studio Executives. . .

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

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Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:

Unfortunately, that idea was deemed too cerebral and esoteric by some studio suits, so they required the idea be dumbed down to the "Humans as power source" idea.

That's freakin' tragic is what it is.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, June 12, 2009 1:20 PM