Why was the Uber-Vamp trying to drown Spike? by chrisisall

I mean, was it just generic torture? As I understand, vampires don't really need to breathe...

Curious Chrisisall

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Monday, July 2, 2007 1:25 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Could have been holy water.....

Or maybe Spike was afraid of baths. I mean did we ever see him take a shower or scrub in the tub? Noooo. He sat in an empty bath tub in season 4 but never washed... Hmmmm

*rubs chin*

www.cirqus.com

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Monday, July 2, 2007 1:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Could have been holy water.....

Very diluted....

Chrisisall

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Monday, July 2, 2007 2:03 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Hey I don't make the rules Big 'C' I just follow them... at least I do when it comes to Buffy.

www.cirqus.com

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Monday, July 2, 2007 2:09 PM

I think it was just general humiliation is all.
A less-harmful waterboarding, if you will.

Uber Chrisisall

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Monday, July 2, 2007 2:32 PM

SIGMANUNKI

In one of the first episodes it was said that vamps don't breath, any indication as such is just an illusion, etc. But, that doesn't stop Joss from rewriting things to fit the current need.

Happens all the time in Buffy/Angel. Something that I didn't notice very much on first airing, but upon watching a Buffy (or two) a day straight through the series, it kinda got really really apparent. One of the reasons why I'm not going to watch Buffy again for a very long time.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

http://www.newsoftheverse.net
Searching the 'Verse so you don't have to.

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Monday, July 2, 2007 10:43 PM

I guess at the end of the day I just don't take those kinds of things that seriously.

Now if that kind of thing were to happen on GENERAL HOSPITAL, look out...hyper-pissed!

Joss is more than forgiven for minor continuity issues as far as I'm concerned...look what he gave us!!

**************************************
"What if you could have the power? Now? In every generation, one Slayer is born...because a bunch of men who died thousands of years ago made up that rule...
So I say we change the rule. I say my power should be our power...
Every girl who could have the power, will have the power. Can stand up, will stand up...
Make your choice. Are you ready to be strong?"--Buffy Summers, May 20, 2003

"In Joss We Trust."

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Tuesday, July 3, 2007 7:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jwhedonaddict:

Joss is more than forgiven for minor continuity issues as far as I'm concerned...look what he gave us!!

EXACTLY!!!!!!

Season seventh heaven Chrisisall

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Tuesday, July 3, 2007 7:10 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

I suppose it's a curiosity because Joss and the writers do wherever possible try and tie things up.
Thing is that [Spike being plunged into water] isn't really that necessary, so I wonder if there wasn't something else going on there...?

www.cirqus.com

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Tuesday, July 3, 2007 7:46 AM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by jwhedonaddict:

Joss is more than forgiven for minor continuity issues as far as I'm concerned...look what he gave us!!

I'd agree if it were minor. But, the fact of the matter is there are /major/ continuity errors. If you want more examples just look at Angels history. The one given in Buffy is radically different than the one that was developed in Angel. Another one would be the fighting strengths of the different characters. Namely that they change drastically in different situations.

Basically, Joss didn't change the situation to get the desired effect, he changed the characters.

Next time you watch through the series, don't just turn off your brain to enjoy, watch with a critical eye. Keep things that were said in your head as the series progresses. There is some VERY serious breaches in continuity.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

http://www.newsoftheverse.net
Searching the 'Verse so you don't have to.

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Tuesday, July 3, 2007 8:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

Next time you watch through the series, don't just turn off your brain to enjoy, watch with a critical eye. Keep things that were said in your head as the series progresses. There is some VERY serious breaches in continuity.

Buffy is a comic book (now...literally!

).
Comics are full of the junk. I just enjoy it for what it is, although Angel's backstory did get a little *tilts hand back and forth*

heh heh Chrisisall

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Tuesday, July 3, 2007 12:47 PM

Confused on what is meant by errors in continuity of Angel's history from both shows. I remember certain things explained in commentaries by writers about that exact subject and I'm wondering if it's the same issue, or something else altogether. I can't recall right now the exact scenes/episodes, but I do remember being mildly confused/upset beforehand, until listening to the commentary.

By the way, I do not shut my brain off when watching. It's kind of insulting to have it implied that I do.

I've noticed a lot of things over the years actually...I just don't remember anything in the Jossverses that bothered me that much. Examples: Spike and Angel are (un)dead, but they bleed and have hard-ons. Big deal. Vamps photograph (though not well, apparently) despite having no reflection. So what? Angel-with a soul-vamped a human to save others in "Why We Fight" after making it sound like (to Darla) that he'd never done it before since he got his soul and wondered if he would pass it on to her. Guess what, don't care. There are plenty of reasons to not be honest about it...denial and remorse would be two of them. Makes him more interesting to me instead of turning me off completely.

But to quit watching? That's just crazy-talk as far as I'm concerned!

Not crazy-you, crazy-me. I'm not going to insult you the way you did me. For me, BUFFY and ANGEL and the Jossverse in general are actually more than an addiction for me--they are like oxygen. Without them, I just couldn't function.

Well, I could, but it wouldn't be pretty.

**************************************
"What if you could have the power? Now? In every generation, one Slayer is born...because a bunch of men who died thousands of years ago made up that rule...
So I say we change the rule. I say my power should be our power...
Every girl who could have the power, will have the power. Can stand up, will stand up...
Make your choice. Are you ready to be strong?"--Buffy Summers, May 20, 2003

"In Joss We Trust."

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Tuesday, July 3, 2007 4:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jwhedonaddict:

But to quit watching? That's just crazy-talk as far as I'm concerned!

--they are like oxygen. Without them, I just couldn't function.

I hear ya, and I concur.
What would life be without Once More With Feeling????

Chrisbotisall

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Wednesday, July 4, 2007 9:53 AM

Really wouldn't want to know, Chris...really wouldn't want to know.

**************************************
"What if you could have the power? Now? In every generation, one Slayer is born...because a bunch of men who died thousands of years ago made up that rule...
So I say we change the rule. I say my power should be our power...
Every girl who could have the power, will have the power. Can stand up, will stand up...
Make your choice. Are you ready to be strong?"--Buffy Summers, May 20, 2003

"In Joss We Trust."

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Saturday, July 7, 2007 6:38 PM

You want the simple answer? How about, 'cause it's the crappiest episode of the entire 144, and that's just the craptastic topping on the great big steaming pile of #$&%.

Seriously, did the "Buffy" writers forget how Angel had just spent his summer vacation between seasons 3 and 4, just a few months previous? And after all that time, it wasn't the water that got to him, just the lack of food...

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Sunday, July 8, 2007 10:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Groosalugg:
You want the simple answer? How about, 'cause it's the crappiest episode of the entire 144, and that's just the craptastic topping on the great big steaming pile of #$&%.

So....you didn't like it...?

Chrisisall

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Sunday, July 8, 2007 2:11 PM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Groosalugg:
Seriously, did the "Buffy" writers forget how Angel had just spent his summer vacation between seasons 3 and 4, just a few months previous? And after all that time, it wasn't the water that got to him, just the lack of food...

Well, Spike and Angel have always been very different vamps. Angel apparently subsists entirely on blood. Spike eats hot wings, Weetabix crumbled up in his blood, and the bloomin' onion (until they took it off the menu). Not to mention the bourbon, or the big loaf of dwarvish battle-bread (*) he was once seen toting in a grocery bag.

(* Okay, it was the token Hollywood-style baguette, but have you seen/felt how hard those things get? You could stave in a skull.)

Spike is a gourmand, an undead hedonist who fills his timeless years with luxuries of sensation. Eating, dreaming, fighting, screwing, drinking, and, yes, breathing.

Angel. . . Angel broods. He doesn't eat, doesn't drink, he doesn't seem to dream, he uses violence only as a tool, he sure as hell doesn't get laid often. . . Lock him in an iron box and he'll patiently stay there, thinking dark thoughts until someone gets him out. Hell, that's what he does when he's not locked up.

Lock up Spike, and he'd rant, rage, and claw his fingers to the bone to get out.

Plus, respirating or not, I can't imagine a lungful of water is particularly pleasant. Ubervamp probably got Spike about to launch into one of his patently sarcastic rants, then dunked him. Spike sucks in a breath (needed to make his vocal chords work), and suddenly everything goes "glub." Plus, the water was either freakin' cold or scalding.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Tuesday, July 10, 2007 9:27 AM

I got a little lost before, no doubt due to mainly overtiredness on top of the very idea of stopping watching these shows over what I considered minor details in the grand scheme of things.

That said, with a clearer mind, I can honestly say that I never thought the ubervamp was actually trying to drown Spike, but to torture him. So I don't see this specific issue as a mistake on Joss's part, or the writer's part at all. For example, We can't die from having someone burn us repeatedly with a cigarette, but if they do it enough times when we're not in a position to stop it, it could potentially push us to want to do what they wanted to get them to stop. I imagine the goal was to push him to give up, to give in to their side. That's why the First tried to get him to believe Buffy wasn't coming for him.

I imagine killing him would've been a last resort, but not the actual intention with the so-called drowning.

**************************************
"What if you could have the power? Now? In every generation, one Slayer is born...because a bunch of men who died thousands of years ago made up that rule...
So I say we change the rule. I say my power should be our power...
Every girl who could have the power, will have the power. Can stand up, will stand up...
Make your choice. Are you ready to be strong?"--Buffy Summers, May 20, 2003

"In Joss We Trust."

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Tuesday, July 10, 2007 5:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Groosalugg:
You want the simple answer? How about, 'cause it's the crappiest episode of the entire 144, and that's just the craptastic topping on the great big steaming pile of #$&%.

So....you didn't like it...?

Chrisisall

Not a huge fan of it, no.

And while you're still puzzling over this particular episode, maybe you can figure out for me exactly what purpose Joyce served in it. Four years later, and I'm still trying to figure out what she was there for...

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 3:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Groosalugg:

And while you're still puzzling over this particular episode, maybe you can figure out for me exactly what purpose Joyce served in it. Four years later, and I'm still trying to figure out what she was there for...

The First was using Joyce's visage to sooth Buffy, to calm and re-assure her. Kind of get her to soften up and drop her guard a little. Exactly what Buffy didn't need to be doing- she needed her edge.

I disagree with ya G. This was a very good ep IMO. I even liked the speechafying at the end. It sets up a great funny by Andrew later, too.

The #1 season seven fan Chrisisall

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 3:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:

Plus, respirating or not, I can't imagine a lungful of water is particularly pleasant.

The change in temperature that lung tissue experiences upon being confronted directly with water is most unpleasant, however this particular feeling would likely be somewhat lost on the undead, as they tend to be lower in body temperature to begin with, however the density change sensation from air to water would still maintain it dis-orienting factor, initially, at least.

Not-too-over-analyzing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 6:28 AM

DATALESS

I think being underwater feeling like you needed to breath would still bother you. I was once in a pool with an oxygen tank and I felt weird and like I needed to got out of the water. Also I think he was being shoved into a toilet, How would that make you feel? That germ-ridden bowl would not be a nice place for your head to go, but then again he lives in a crypt.

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 9:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
The First was using Joyce's visage to sooth Buffy, to calm and re-assure her. Kind of get her to soften up and drop her guard a little. Exactly what Buffy didn't need to be doing- she needed her edge.

Except that it wasn't the First--it was just a dream, both times.

I have a feeling your answer to that would be, "Yeah, but it was the First appearing as Joyce in the dreams." Right? Am I right? You were gonna say that, right?

Okay, find me another instance where it's shown that the First can appear in dreams and attempt to mess with people in them the same way it does when they're awake...

Unless you wanna just chalk it up to another FE-continuity problem, same as with the Dawn scenes in CWDP...

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 9:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Groosalugg:

I have a feeling your answer to that would be, "Yeah, but it was the First appearing as Joyce in the dreams." Right? Am I right? You were gonna say that, right?

As a matter of fact...

Hey, maybe they were just dreams then...okay?
People have them, y'know.
Not EVERYTHING has to be dripping with signifigance...

Sheesh Chrisisall

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Thursday, July 12, 2007 7:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Hey, maybe they were just dreams then...okay?
People have them, y'know.
Not EVERYTHING has to be dripping with signifigance...

Right, that's what my take on it has always been--no FE, just Buffy dreaming. Which gets back to my question of, why have her in the ep at all? If she'd given Buffy some kind of key revelation or insight, that'd be one thing, but she doesn't.

You want my theory on it. No? Well, you're gonna get it anyway:

They're beginning work on writing CWDP, and ask Amber Benson if she'd like to come back and appear in an episode. "Oh, sure, I'd love to--that'd be great." She then gets the script shortly before filming begins: "Hey, hold on--I don't want to play an EVIL Tara. No way." Hasty re-writes occur (and someone comes up with the HORRIBLE idea to leave the scenes pretty much as-is, and have Cassie(?!?!) of all people stand in for her).

A couple of episodes later, someone on the staff thinks it'd be nice to see Joyce back one last time. Not wanting to get burned again, they ask Kristine Sutherland first, and most importantly, get her signature on a contract before proceeding too far on the script.

Then, at some point, one writer asks, "Okay, so, now that we've got her, what do we do with her?" Several pairs of eyes all stare at each other around the writers' table; no one speaks up with a compelling idea. Eventually, they settle on what you see on your DVD--two completely useless dream sequences...

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Thursday, July 12, 2007 7:39 AM