BUFFYVERSE

Buffy season six: Admit it peeps, a woman taking sexual control threatens you, doesn't it?

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 7, 2007 13:28
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VIEWED: 4933
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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 8:04 AM

CHRISISALL


Buffy shagged Spike for her own reasons, to confront her own 'demons' if you will. She used Spike.
Some on this board have said that it wasn't 'Buffy' to them anymore. Like the whole show turned to crap or something because Buffy was dealing with her issues in a way that involved her using sex. Is she supposed to be sweet little innocent Buffy forever? BTW, she lost it with a vamp in season 2....

I pose that most (GUYS) uncomfortability with this season stems from fear of true equality of the sexes!



Take your best shot Chrisisall


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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 8:34 AM

CHRISISALL


See. I knew this was too frightening a topic to take on.

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 8:40 AM

KELKHIL


See my complaint with that relationship was that Spike turned into a whiney little cry baby. Man I hated him for the longest time after that! It wasn't until the last half of the final season that I enjoyed anything to do with his character. From the "Big Bad" to the Big Baby? WTF!!!!!!!!!!!

OK rant over now.



Kelkhil

The Shirtless Forsaken


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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 8:40 AM

SERENITYINSCOTLAND


Buffy: "Then why do I let him do those things to me?"

Sound like someone in control to you Chris?


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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 8:46 AM

DEEPGIRL187


My problem with season six is this: Buffy turned into an outright bitca. This has nothing to do with her having sexual control; I have absolutely no problem with that. Where my beef comes in is that she didn't want to take responsiblity for her destructive behavior toward herself and others. Buffy's decisions, along with those of the other Scoobies, often had horrible consequences on the people around them (Spike getting the crap kicked out of him, Dawn feeling neglected, the wedding, Willow's addiction). It's one thing to screw up, but another not to take responsibility for your mistakes.

*************************************************

"If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition."


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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 8:53 AM

CHARLIETHEBLOODY


also don't forget "when she was bad", she was feeling unsure of herself (due to dying) so she made herself feel stronger by asserting her sexual power over xander and angel

it was totally in character.

I'd never really thought of that as people's problem with the season and the relationship, but I think you may be on to something chris

--------------------------------------
"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."





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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 8:56 AM

CHARLIETHEBLOODY


Quote:

Originally posted by SerenityinScotland:
Buffy: "Then why do I let him do those things to me?"

Sound like someone in control to you Chris?

]

well she obviously wasn't that sucessful with the taking control, but that was the idea wasn't it?

--------------------------------------
"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."





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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:00 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SerenityinScotland:
Buffy: "Then why do I let him do those things to me?"

Sound like someone in control to you Chris?


She phrased it that way to take blame off of herself. Spike only did what she allowed him to do, and there she went wild. She was in control of what she did, but not of the urges that drove her...it was an addiction, and one she had not so much to lose by exploring it; she'd already been dead.

My take Chrisisall

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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:08 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by charliethebloody:

I'd never really thought of that as people's problem with the season and the relationship, but I think you may be on to something chris

One person on here who shall remain nameless said when he saw Smashed, he knew he'd never see another good Buffy episode again...ooohhh, what a dirty girl, expressing her feelings of no-feeling with wanton sexuality....
I had absolutely no problem with it, aside from feeling bad for Buffy for what drove her to it. But it always sounded wrong to me when peeps used that inner journey of hers as a point where everything changed...you know, sorta smacked of the puritanical.

No Puritan Chrisisall

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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:10 AM

SERENITYINSCOTLAND


Reckon you're probably pretty close to the mark there Chris, but as everyone loves a devil's advocate...

Buffy hated herself for sleeping with Spike in the first place (in 'Smashed' where she undoubtably had control) so to make it easier she let Spike control her, not the other way round. See 'As You Were', where Spike doesn't take no for an answer despite Buffy's persistent refusals and eventual relucant give. Do you think Buffy was in control there?


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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:15 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SerenityinScotland:
Do you think Buffy was in control there?


Physically, she was always 100% in control, emotionally, not so much. She started it, only to feel swept away, to feel SOMETHING.

Non-judgemental Chrisisall

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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:21 AM

SERENITYINSCOTLAND


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by SerenityinScotland:
Do you think Buffy was in control there?


Physically, she was always 100% in control, emotionally, not so much. She started it, only to feel swept away, to feel SOMETHING.

Non-judgemental Chrisisall



Always 100% physically in control? How about 'Seeing Red'? Spike gets pretty close to raping Buffy, with her putting up (excuse the term) pretty girly struggles. And emotionally, Buffy was never in control. In the sense I don't think she never wanted to do what she was doing with Spike, but was compelled to. Someone compelled is not someone in control.

As always, great topic Chris. Can't talk anymore tonight, going drinking. Perils of working as a scotch whiskey tour guide. Have a good one guys.


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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 10:55 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SerenityinScotland:


Always 100% physically in control? How about 'Seeing Red'? Spike gets pretty close to raping Buffy, with her putting up (excuse the term) pretty girly struggles.

It was by the grace of whatever special feeling she might have had for Spike (shagging him and all) that she didn't flat-out KILL him in that bathroom- she let it go on like that because some part of her couldn't believe he'd push it as far as he did. If she just pounded him (like she was capable of doing) it wouldn't have had that realistic date-rape jarring quality.

A point maybe, if you tell someone to brush your hair, even though you don't particularly WANT your hair brushed, just getting someone to do as you say is control, the kind I'm talkin' about, anyway.

Don't forget to take vitamins to reduce hangover Chrisisall

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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 11:37 AM

CHARLIETHEBLOODY


Quote:

Always 100% physically in control? How about 'Seeing Red'? Spike gets pretty close to raping Buffy, with her putting up (excuse the term) pretty girly struggles.


"because I stopped you, something I should have done a long time ago..."

she always could have stopped him, she just didn't want to enough.

I don't actually think she was in control but it was still an exercise in control, practice. she was growing up and finding her feet and her power. a lot of people use things that aren't completely healthy to take control, like sex, food, work, exercise, drugs, shopping, self harm, counting things, anything that will help you get a grasp on life...

--------------------------------------
"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."





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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 11:44 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I like a woman on top.

But per your Buffy reference, I can't overlook the fact that she came back, as Spike said, 'wrong'. She couldn't grasp what it was, and I'm not sure if we ever knew for certain, but in dealing w/ having been brought back, she had some issues she had to work out. Hell, I've known plenty of women who didn't go through anything so drastic as being brought back from the dead who deal with their own issues in similar fashion.

I'm always wiling to lend a helpful ear, or what ever body part is required.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 3:35 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Hell, I've known plenty of women who didn't go through anything so drastic as being brought back from the dead who deal with their own issues in similar fashion.


Exactly.
And seeing Riley getting sucked on by vamps was more unsettling that anything Buffy did with Spike IMO.

Ewwwue Chrisisall

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 3:47 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by charliethebloody:
a lot of people use things that aren't completely healthy to take control, like sex, food, work, exercise, drugs, shopping, self harm,


My stepson went through a period from 20-22 where he did suspensions- sort of a drastic medatative (and somewhat bloody) thing *still shivers*
So seeing post-shag Buffy all scratched up and disheveled under a carpet didn't shock me so much...

Note: That was a few years ago, he doesn't do that any more now, he's got bills to pay now- like rent and such

Liking the sex thing better Chrisisall

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 5:23 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST


Nah... Big 'C' - women are ALWAYS in control anyway :D


www.cirqus.com

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 4:03 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Nah... Big 'C' - women are ALWAYS in control anyway :D


There's feminists that would disagree with that statement.
But it's true as far as Mrs.'C' goes...

Fool for love Chrisisall

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 4:44 AM

ZEEK


I'm rewatching season 6 right now actually. I don't see Buffy as in control at all. She could physically stop Spike, but he could physically walk away from the relationship. Those aren't in any way considered control to me.

Really I'm noticing how the season is really about the two different paths. Willow is on the path to getting better and accepting consequences. Buffy is out of control and can't stop. I don't think she comes off as strong in season 6 at all.

Her relationship with Riley is the one I'd put her in the driver's seat. She used him that whole time. He even knew she didn't love him. Anytime she wanted a little somethin somethin that's when she'd go find him. Anytime she didn't he was kicked to the curb.

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 5:34 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Zeek:
Those aren't in any way considered control to me.


Her control is of her emotions, to feel SOMETHING outside herself- for which she is indulging in the Spikester. The way some would drink to ease a loss.

Dats all Chrisisall

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 6:07 AM

DEATHISMYGIFT


I quite enjoyed the Buffy/Spike dynamic. I believe that Buffy could have stopped it at ANY time but she liked it. It was dirty, she felt guilty but...she enjoyed it. The fact that she did enjoy it made it "dirty" to her. There is nothing wrong with a little rough sex. Or a lot in their case.

The whole "Seeing Red" thing. You have to look at Buffy and Spikes overall relationship. She ALWAYS said no, he always insisted and prevailed. Eventually she would give in. However in this scene Spike kept pushing. Buffy did say no but given their history he felt he should keep going and she would eventually give in. That wasn't the case this time. I was able to talk with Jane Espenson about this scene over the CSTS weekend and she told me that it didn't "turn out" quite like the writing team wanted. She said Spike was meant to feel instantly regretful about it but it didn't come across that way on the screen.

All in all, I like season six. I like Buffy and Spike. I truly believe deep down inside she did love him.

"it's always complicated and at some point someone has to draw the line and that is always going to be me. you get down on me for cutting myself off but in the end the slayer is always cut off. there's no mystical guide book, no all knowing council, human rules don't apply. there's only me....i am the law" -Buffy the Vampire Slayer

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 6:21 AM

JRC


Buffy can control me sexually whenever she wants to, got no problem with that.



Everyone dies alone.

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 6:50 AM

ZEEK


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Physically, she was always 100% in control, emotionally, not so much. She started it, only to feel swept away, to feel SOMETHING.



Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Her control is of her emotions, to feel SOMETHING outside herself- for which she is indulging in the Spikester. The way some would drink to ease a loss.


huh?

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 7:04 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Zeek:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Physically, she was always 100% in control, emotionally, not so much. She started it, only to feel swept away, to feel SOMETHING.



Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Her control is of her emotions, to feel SOMETHING outside herself- for which she is indulging in the Spikester. The way some would drink to ease a loss.


huh?

You know, like, if you drove your car off a cliff, you'd be in control of the car initially, and the decision to go off the cliff, but once you're in the air the control's gone?
Y'know?

WHAT AM I, THE GORRAM PRESIDENT HERE? Am I being cross-examined for inconsistancies in my testimony???

I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Summers!

C'mon, you know what I'm trying to say here....

The sometimes imprecise Chrisisall

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 8:56 AM

DEEPGIRL187


Quote:

Originally posted by DeathIsMyGift:
I quite enjoyed the Buffy/Spike dynamic. I believe that Buffy could have stopped it at ANY time but she liked it. It was dirty, she felt guilty but...she enjoyed it. The fact that she did enjoy it made it "dirty" to her. There is nothing wrong with a little rough sex. Or a lot in their case.

The whole "Seeing Red" thing. You have to look at Buffy and Spikes overall relationship. She ALWAYS said no, he always insisted and prevailed. Eventually she would give in. However in this scene Spike kept pushing. Buffy did say no but given their history he felt he should keep going and she would eventually give in. That wasn't the case this time. I was able to talk with Jane Espenson about this scene over the CSTS weekend and she told me that it didn't "turn out" quite like the writing team wanted. She said Spike was meant to feel instantly regretful about it but it didn't come across that way on the screen.

All in all, I like season six. I like Buffy and Spike. I truly believe deep down inside she did love him.



Agree with you whole-heartedly there, except for the Buffy loving Spike business. I think she loved things about him, but it would have been impossible to love him as a person, especially given their history.

"I love you."
"No you don't. But thanks for saying it."

***************************************************

"Right! Because teenage pranks are fun when you're about to die!"

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 10:14 AM

DEATHISMYGIFT


Quote:



Agree with you whole-heartedly there, except for the Buffy loving Spike business. I think she loved things about him, but it would have been impossible to love him as a person, especially given their history.

"I love you."
"No you don't. But thanks for saying it."



Well, from what I know Joss said she did love him.

"it's always complicated and at some point someone has to draw the line and that is always going to be me. you get down on me for cutting myself off but in the end the slayer is always cut off. there's no mystical guide book, no all knowing council, human rules don't apply. there's only me....i am the law" -Buffy the Vampire Slayer

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Thursday, July 19, 2007 9:31 PM

GENERALARROW


Watch the episode commentaries. They help alot!

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Friday, July 27, 2007 6:20 AM

SAMANIE


I can't say I enjoyed watching the Buffy and Spike bits but that could be cos I'm a prude :) but I think the argument that it isn't Buffy is a valid one. I am not debating coming back from the dead isn't traumatizing and the new responsibilities thrust upon her would be terrifying I just don't think that having lots of sex with Spike was a good way to express that. Sure it made a point at the begining but I think where it went wrong was because there was so much of it and then it lost its meaning

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Friday, July 27, 2007 9:03 AM

EMPIREX


There's nothing wrong at all with a woman taking sexual control. I think what a lot of fans had a problem with was the fact that Buffy used sex to put off dealing with her emotional issues.

Using sex (or drugs or alcohol) to forget your problems - well I think most people would agree that's not the healthiest way to deal.





Patsy: When you were two years old, we tied you to the central reservation of a motorway.

Edina: But you were like a homing pidgeon, sweetie....back within a week!

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Thursday, August 2, 2007 10:23 AM

ZAMIAM


I haven't the smallest problem with a person, including Buffy, 'using' sex. Casual sex or sex purely for pleasure is fine with me, as long as both parties understand it as such and do it for the same purpose. This was not the case with Spike, who was clearly in love with her.

It isn't the 'sexual control' Buffy takes, but the maipulation and straight out disregard...

But it didn't make me hate her character at all. It was just a mistake.

I initially loved the idea of a Buffy/Spike relationship, even one of that nature. I think over the course of season six it was run into the ground by sheer repetition. I was bored.

--------------------------------------------------
I am a leaf on the wind.

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Saturday, August 4, 2007 6:53 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by ZamIAm:

I initially loved the idea of a Buffy/Spike relationship, even one of that nature. I think over the course of season six it was run into the ground by sheer repetition. I was bored.


You clearly have no understanding of addictive nature; I found it extremely realistic and engaging. Well, you know, as realistic as a show about slaying vampires and demons can get...

Bufffan Chrisisall

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Sunday, August 5, 2007 12:57 AM

CORNCOBB


If by 'taking sexual control' you mean being sexually assertive and willing to have casual sex - nope, didn't bother me at all. But then, I loved season 6, how dark it was, how messed up everyone was. Very dramatic.
I was far more bothered by some of her previous relationships. As someone above mentioned, she completely used Riley. Even though I found Riley boring, I thought the way Buffy treated him was really low. And casual sex with Parker bothered me, I think because she was so clearly being used. And because that whole episode seemed gratuitously 'sexed-up'.
Buffy and Spike wasn't out of character for Buffy at all. She'd always used sex to deal with her problems.But I liked the Buffy and Spike relationship. Yes, it was f****d up, but pretty equally so on both sides. I think they really did love each other in a strange way, they just expressed it unhealthily. let's face it Buffy wasn't exactly playing with a whole deck at the time, and Spike always had some serious psychological issues, so the relationship was bound to be weird. But they loved each other, that was the main thing. Even in season 7 Buffy said Spike was her boyfriend in her heart or something like that.
To surmise, Buffy choosing to have casual rough sex didn't bother me. (That'd be hypocritical ). Buffy using people and letting herself be used bothered me many times. It didn't just happen in her romantic relationships either. Made me really dislike the character sometimes.

"Gorramit Mal... I've forgotten my line."

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Sunday, August 5, 2007 8:04 AM

SAMANIE


Didn't Faith say that slaying made you hungary and horny. I think Buffy was taking on the darker aspect of the slayer, as Spike represented her dark nature and like Faith to a degree was revelling in something she had control over.

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Tuesday, August 7, 2007 1:28 PM

WYTCHCROFT


LOL! no - maybe we all just agree with you!

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