BUFFYVERSE

Is Joyce Summers dead because of Dawn?

POSTED BY: DATALESS
UPDATED: Thursday, September 27, 2007 11:41
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Monday, August 13, 2007 5:51 AM

DATALESS


When Season 5 of Buffy begins there is on sign of Joyce's craziness or cancer. Almost as soon Dawn shows up she started getting sick. So is it a side effect of the monk's spell or is it the green energy that Dawn puts out?

Do you really blame Dawn for The Death of Joyce Summers?


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Monday, August 13, 2007 6:51 AM

EVILDINOSAUR


I've often wondered that myself, as far as I can tell the writers never give us an answer and her death was by nothing but natural causes, but I do have to wonder if the spell didn't have something to do with it. I mean the show has taught us that magic has a price, so a spell as big and complex as creating a person and a history for that person, could potentially have had a side effect as severe as killing joyce.



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Monday, August 13, 2007 6:54 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Or she could be dead because she was a boring and irritating character that got in the way of the bigger picture.


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Monday, August 13, 2007 6:58 AM

PENGUIN


lol




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Monday, August 13, 2007 6:58 AM

MIRAMEL


it does seem like a sideaffect of the spell, but i tend to think that was just coincidence; joss stressed the whole 'natural death' thing, and i can't imagine they'd pass up an opportunity to make dawn feel even less welcome, so if it was her fault i'm thinking we'd have heard about it.

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Monday, August 13, 2007 7:55 AM

SINGATE


Egad! Another Buffy thread with a spoiler in the title. Rally the troops of the uninitiated.

If Dawn had been created from Joyce it would be natural to assume that her death was the price for Dawn's existence. However, it was stated on more than one occasion that Dawn was taken from Buffy in order to create a connection between the two. I seem to remember Joyce making the comment, "she's not mine is she?". Or something to that effect. If anything it was Buffy who balanced the equation at the end of the season by sacrificing herself to save Dawn. If Dawn did not exist Buffy never would have had to make that choice. Of course her death wasn't quite so permanent as Joyce's.

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Monday, August 13, 2007 5:34 PM

FILLIANGIRL4136


Quote:

Originally posted by singate:
I seem to remember Joyce making the comment, "she's not mine is she?". Or something to that effect. If anything it was Buffy who balanced the equation at the end of the season by sacrificing herself to save Dawn. If Dawn did not exist Buffy never would have had to make that choice.



I was just watching that episode on Tivo. The fact that she was sick along with all the crazies that Glory created, and could see that Dawn was not really human, was a great story device. But I think the importance of comes when she says to Buffy, "But she belongs to us, doesn't she?" Even though they both know that she is not blood family, they both know that she is still family.

I really feel that Joyce's death was meant to show impact of death on family. Regardless to whether Joyce's death is directly related to Dawn's coming into the world, I still think that The Body is one the most powerful episodes emotionally of the entire series.

As for the possible message that magic has consequences, all you have to do is look at Willow at the end of the same season. Joss has always incoporated the fact that actions have consequesces, so you could imply that the creation of Dawn and the memories implanted of her could have caused her death.

But one question:
Why didn't any of the other characters have any adverse affects from the transplanted memories?

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Monday, August 13, 2007 6:41 PM

JOSSISAGOD


I'm not exactly sure where I read or heard this, but I think Joss told Kristine Sutherland when she was hired, when Joyce was going to die. So, I think Joyce's death may have been caused by Glory, NOT Dawn, as I don't believe Dawn was written in until the end of the forth season at the earliest.

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Tuesday, August 14, 2007 4:19 AM

DEEPGIRL187


Personally, I think it would be far too simple to blame Joyce's death on Dawn's creation. I think when everything starts to revolve around magic, we lose site of the bigger picture.

Instead, I like to see Joyce's death as a way of showing everyone that the most horrible, painful episodes in life don't have to involve anything supernatural. Having Joyce die from something as mundane as a brain tumor was a reality check not only for the characters, but for us too. We get so swept up in this fantasy world, sometimes we forget how shocking and frightening a normal death is, or how helpless it makes one feel.

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Tuesday, August 14, 2007 5:21 AM

ZEEK


Quote:

Originally posted by jossisagod:
I'm not exactly sure where I read or heard this, but I think Joss told Kristine Sutherland when she was hired, when Joyce was going to die. So, I think Joyce's death may have been caused by Glory, NOT Dawn, as I don't believe Dawn was written in until the end of the forth season at the earliest.


It's sorta the other way around. They were hinting about Dawn back in Season 3. When Faith and Buffy are making the bed in the dream sequence thing and she says something like "gotta get ready for little sis" or something. Then at the end of season 4 during the crazy first slayer dreams Tara says, "the Dawn is coming" or something like that.

As for Joyce, I know that Joss said in an interview that he told Joyce she was going to die in Season 5 right before Season 4. Basically because Joyce was taking a leave from the show (that's why she was hardly in Season 4), but he was like "but you're coming back for Season 5 right? Cause I'm gonna kill you."

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Tuesday, August 14, 2007 11:18 AM

LWAVES


Quote:

Originally posted by Zeek:
It's sorta the other way around. They were hinting about Dawn back in Season 3. When Faith and Buffy are making the bed in the dream sequence thing and she says something like "gotta get ready for little sis" or something. Then at the end of season 4 during the crazy first slayer dreams Tara says, "the Dawn is coming" or something like that.

As for Joyce, I know that Joss said in an interview that he told Joyce she was going to die in Season 5 right before Season 4. Basically because Joyce was taking a leave from the show (that's why she was hardly in Season 4), but he was like "but you're coming back for Season 5 right? Cause I'm gonna kill you."



I'd heard something along those lines as well about when he told her that she was going to die. To tell her when she was hired would have been before S1 was out and I think that they wouldn't be planning that far ahead.

I think Faith refers to Dawn as 'Little Miss Muffet'. And on my last viewing of S5 I only just got that the crazy guy outside the Magic Box mentions 'curds and whey'. Still finding new stuff after all these years.

As for the original point I think that the theory is nice but that it is a coincidence of sorts. Buffy's Dad is out of the picture, she has a sister that's not her sister and I have read too many times that Joss wanted a natural death, one that couldn't be linked in any way to the supernatural. As stated Buffy's 'death' makes more sense.



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Tuesday, August 14, 2007 5:57 PM

AURAPTOR

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Interesting idea. It could be that, or simply that Joss likes killin' off folks we've become accustomed to.


I'm leaning toward the latter, myself.

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Tuesday, August 14, 2007 6:37 PM

QUIETUDE


Well just harking back to a previous mention of if it was due to Dawn arriving that Joyce joined the Choir Invisible. The reason it may not have effected the others was because they had only known Buffy from when she was a teenager and therefore Dawn from that time as well, while Joyce would have memories dating back to Dawns birth. So alot more meddling would have gone on in her head. Wouldn't have effected Buffy of course as she is the Slayer with bouncebackability.

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Thursday, August 16, 2007 5:57 AM

DATALESS


I heard that both Joyce and Jenny Calendar were both were meant to die sooner then they did. (In Joyce's case I think much sooner.)

Quote:

Originally posted by Quietude:
Well just harking back to a previous mention of if it was due to Dawn arriving that Joyce joined the Choir Invisible. The reason it may not have effected the others was because they had only known Buffy from when she was a teenager and therefore Dawn from that time as well, while Joyce would have memories dating back to Dawns birth. So alot more meddling would have gone on in her head. Wouldn't have effected Buffy of course as she is the Slayer with bouncebackability.



Interesting point. The effects of the spell could have caused the cancer but her death was natural.

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Friday, August 24, 2007 3:42 PM

SIRI


Quote:

Originally posted by lwaves:
Quote:

Originally posted by Zeek:
They were hinting about Dawn back in Season 3. When Faith and Buffy are making the bed in the dream sequence thing and she says something like "gotta get ready for little sis" or something. Then at the end of season 4 during the crazy first slayer dreams Tara says, "the Dawn is coming" or something like that.
B]



I think Faith refers to Dawn as 'Little Miss Muffet'. And on my last viewing of S5 I only just got that the crazy guy outside the Magic Box mentions 'curds and whey'. Still finding new stuff after all these years.



I've been rewatching Buffy from Season 1 and noticed the references to Dawn between Faith and Buffy - a couple of times and Tara in The Restless. I was surprised I hadn't picked up on it before.

I don't think Dawn caused Joyce's death. I'm not even sure (who can be but Joss) that either Glory or the spell of the monks caused it. I think it was natural causes which seems even more horrific in the context of the whole magic, demons, supernatural sphere. I would agree that The Body was one of the most powerful shows of the whole series. It was so starkly realistic and final. I kept waiting for Joyce to come back. I thought maybe somehow Dawn would revive her, that it would be some sort of latent power within her. I remember in a later episode that Buffy makes a remark or responds to a question tht if she had to do it again, she would kill Dawn before allowing the ritual to even begin.



Siri

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Wednesday, September 19, 2007 6:13 AM

DEATHISMYGIFT


Quote:

Originally posted by Zeek:

Then at the end of season 4 during the crazy first slayer dreams Tara says, "the Dawn is coming" or something like that.



"Be back before dawn."

One of my favorite Tara quotes.

"it's always complicated and at some point someone has to draw the line and that is always going to be me. you get down on me for cutting myself off but in the end the slayer is always cut off. there's no mystical guide book, no all knowing council, human rules don't apply. there's only me....i am the law" -Buffy the Vampire Slayer

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 6:57 AM

JWHEDONADDICT


Joyce's death was a natural one. NO supernatural thing or event caused it--that was the whole point. Something that Buffy could not fight, could not stop, could not correct.

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 7:03 AM

CHARLIETHEBLOODY


I agree, surely that whole point was that it was completely natural? trying to blame it on dawn and glory and the supernatural is what buffy went through before coming to the understanding that it was just life...

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 7:09 AM

JWHEDONADDICT


Exactly!

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"I'm 1120 years old. Just give me a frigging beer!"--Anya

"You let him get me. You let him get me."--Connor

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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 4:45 PM

EMPIREX


I never thought Joyce's death was supernatural or caused by Dawn or anyone else. It's seems to me that Joss simply wanted to take Buffy down that path - force her to really grow up and, in turn, become a parent to Dawn. It makes for good character development.

And Joyce was not annoying! I loved Joyce! Pwthththththhhh! I raspberry in your general direction, FutureMrs! LOL



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Thursday, September 27, 2007 11:41 AM

JWHEDONADDICT


Quote:

Originally posted by EmpireX:

And Joyce was not annoying! I loved Joyce!



Me too. She was a good mom. Sadly, since it was Buffy's story, Joyce didn't get to have much of a life that we could see (until the end--sniff).

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