GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Firefly is an 'Outlaw Star' rip-off!!! (apparently)

POSTED BY: DAZ
UPDATED: Monday, February 16, 2015 22:53
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Tuesday, August 23, 2005 11:51 PM

DAZ


Some bright spark has decided that Joss has ripped off key elements of an anime series called "Outlaw Star" (which I've never even heard of) for Firefly and posted it on Wikipedia for all to see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefly_(television_series)#Connections_t
o_other_media


Where do these people come from? Closer examination reveals that this isn't the case. Talk about bending the truth. It's simply outrageous and this addition demands immediate censure!!


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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 12:50 AM

AKUKODOGO


Or complete and utter disdain

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 1:52 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Some fans have compared the show to Outlaw Star in its style and execution (and certain story content and plot devices) with a setting similar to Trigun

Its not that bad a refrence...
It doesn't seem to be saying FireFly was ripped off from Outlaw Star, just that its comparable. And as far as Outlaw Star is a western in space thats kind of true...
Its kind of like drawing comparisions with Kryten from Red Dwarf and Data from Star Trek...

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 2:36 AM

MSCKAREN


Yes, if you want to be picky EVERY movie/play/storyline is a rip-off of Shakespeare and he totally ripped off the Greeks and Romans.

There are only so many dramatic premises and ways to play them out. The main differences are setting, props and dialogue. Joss is a master of the differences.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Appears they've cancelled the show and we're still here. What does that make us?"
"Big damn junkies, Sir!"
"Ain't we just."

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 3:29 AM

CITIZEN


My point was both FireFly and Outlaw star are 'Westerns in Space', so can be compared...

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 3:52 AM

STARPILOTGRAINGER


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
My point was both FireFly and Outlaw star are 'Westerns in Space', so can be compared...



I suspect the entry was changed since the original poster posted it, since, as you say, what's mentioned there isn't anything outrageous, and he describes someone writing that Firefly ripped off key elements, rather than 'has been compared to'. Kinda curious to see what the original one was, even if it was a pack of lies.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 3:53 AM

JAINA


my anime fan of a brother mentioned there were similarities in both shows. western in space, outlaws on the run, girl at the centre of it all..

- http://angel-btvs.co.uk - Firefly meets Angel meets Buffy the Vampire Slayer
- http://jewel-staite.net - All things Jewel!
- http://cafepress.com/dtdfirefly & http://cafepress.com/dtdfirefly2- Firefly & Serenity slogans, wear them with pride!
- http://cafepress.com/cantstopsignal - Can't Stop the Signal T-shirts and more!

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 4:05 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


The comparison of Firefly to Outlaw Star has been made many times since Firefly aired, so I would not worry too much about it. I personally have never seen Outlaw Star, but from the way this person did their comparisons, I might actually like it. It does bear a lot of resemblance to Firefly.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 4:44 AM

STILLSHINY


I've always seen comparisons to Cowboy Bebop. But it never bothered me, I'm a fan of both. I'd never say one was a rip-off of the other.

"We had ties that could not be broken, except by the passing of time. Like a rock. A broken time rock. And you're very special to me, my broken time rock people." - Nathan Fillion

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 5:07 AM

BROWNCOATFAN1


what the heck

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 5:51 AM

NIKNAK


The great thing about Wikipedia is that stuff like calling something a "rip-off" is very easily and quickly corrected to a more neutral point of view. When I looked it read:

Quote:

Some fans have compared the show to Outlaw Star in its style and execution (and certain story content and plot devices) with a setting similar to Trigun and Cowboy Bebop.[1]

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 7:37 AM

EVERYWORLDSPINNIN


Quote:

Originally posted by msckaren:
Yes, if you want to be picky EVERY movie/play/storyline is a rip-off of Shakespeare and he totally ripped off the Greeks and Romans.

There are only so many dramatic premises and ways to play them out. The main differences are setting, props and dialogue. Joss is a master of the differences.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Appears they've cancelled the show and we're still here. What does that make us?"
"Big damn junkies, Sir!"
"Ain't we just."



Very true. You can't really create a new colr anymore, can you?

http://browncoatsrunnin.org

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 7:58 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Originally posted by Daz:
Some bright spark has decided that Joss has ripped off key elements of an anime series called "Outlaw Star" (which I've never even heard of) for Firefly and posted it on Wikipedia for all to see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefly_(television_series)#Connections_t
o_other_media


It's also been compared to Cowboy Bebop (which is noted in the article) and in some respects to Star Wars and bunches of other stuff.

The fact that it's being compared to other quality programming is always a good thing.

The part that confuzzles me is how the writer says that the Reavers are broken into "various clans." That would imply some manner of social organization that the Reavers definitely don't have. They fly through space ravaging settlements... end of story.

Personally, I think River got a comfier box too... absurd, I know. At least she was clearly in hibernation .

I draw...therefore I am. http://www.mnartists.org/Nora_Leverson
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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 8:23 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Besides, everyone knows it's more like StarHunter...

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.net

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 2:57 PM

DAZ


Quote:

Originally posted by StarPilotGrainger:


I suspect the entry was changed since the original poster posted it, since, as you say, what's mentioned there isn't anything outrageous, and he describes someone writing that Firefly ripped off key elements, rather than 'has been compared to'. Kinda curious to see what the original one was, even if it was a pack of lies.




Your wish is granted StarPilotGrainger. Have a good long read and make up your own mind whether the intention was to inform or totally diss Firefly.

Quote:

Quoted from Staxringold in the Wikipedia History tab:


12. Connections to other media
12.1 Outlaw Star
12.1.1 River Tam and Melfina
* Both awaken from a box taken on by a person who hired the transport and bodyguard services of the series in the middle of a gun battle of the series' first episode, an act which marks the end of the first episode and the start of the second. Melfina's box is taken by "Hot Ice" Hilda, who hired Jim Hawking and Gene Starwind to transport her. She awakes in the middle of a battle with the Kei Pirates, at the end of "Outlaw World" (the first episode, To Be Continued). River's box is taken by Simon Tam, who hired the transport services of Malcolm Reynolds. She awakes in the middle of a Mexican standoff at the end of "Serenity Part 1" (the first episode, To Be Continued)
* Melfina is a bio-android, built by the "Space Forces" (the military government body in Outlaw Star). River is a genius child, who's brain was altered and experimented upon by the "Alliance" (the military government body in Firefly). Sidenote: Both were stolen from these organizations by the people who woke them up.
* Reavers are broken into various clans who live 'on the edge of space', outside of the law, and commit horrific acts of violence. Space Pirates are broken into various clans who live in 'Pirate Territory' (where the "Space Forces" have no power, so the 'on the edge of space' as the Alliance of Firefly would see it), outside of the law, and commit horrific acts of violence.
* The Alliance is the military governing body of the Firefly universe who stands opposed to both the outlaws (like Malcolm Reynolds) and the Reavers. The Space Forces are the military governing body of the Outlaw Star universe which stand opposed to both Outlaws and the Space Pirates.
* The crew of Serenity repeatedly refer to themselves as outlaws, performing illegal salvage and smuggling along with the occasional honest transport job to get by. The crew of Outlaw Star belong to the 'Outlaw' clan, and perform illegal salvage and smuggling jobs along with the occasion honest job (through Starwind and Hawking Enterprises) to get by. Sidenote: (this theme is shared by other sources such as Han Solo of the Millenium Falcon or the crew of the Cowboy Bebop)



In my opinion, cleaning this article up would be to delete that section quickly and completely.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 8:16 PM

DAZ


This guy is continuing to go all out:

Quote:

Update from Staxringold on Wikipedia:

* Both fugitives have unusual abilities that are programmed in by the military government in their universe. River is a genius child whose brain was experimentally altered by the Alliance, Firefly's military/commercial government. Melfina is a bio-android built by the "Space Forces", Outlaw Star's military government.
* Both are aided for the majority of the series by someone other than the person who originally stole them because that person has made a promise to help unlock the mysteries of what the government did to them. Gene promises Melfina he will figure out why she was made, and Simon promises to unlock what the Alliance did to River's brain.
* Both ship's are regarded as an additional character to the series, with it's own reactions and personality. The Outlaw Star has Gilium, the in-ship AI. Serenity is constantly referred to by the cast and crew as "Serenity: The 10th Character," even warranting it's own special feature on the DVD release of Firefly.
* Both ship's have a thick-headed, muscle bound warrior on board who seeks monetary reward through Melfina/River. Jayne Cobb wants to turn in River (and Simon) for a reward; while Aisha Clan-Clan (crewmember of the Outlaw Star) desperately wants the valuable treasure she believes the Galactic Leyline to be, which can only be reached with Melfina's navigational abilities.
Both ship's have mysterious, spiritual warriors on board who come and go with unknown backgrounds. Shepard Book is a monk who somehow has incredible fighting abilities and violent knowledge no normal monk would have without any explanation. "Sunset" Suzuka is a mysterious assassin (who often quotes Buddhist/Confucianist-esque wisdom) with an unknown past because she kills nearly anyone who knows her.
* Both ship's have childlike engineers who have an oft-adversarial relationship with the captain, but always make up with him by the end of the day. Jim Hawking is an actual child who has detailed mechanical knowledge and often fights with Gene over their finances or his wild plans. Kaylee Frye is incredibly childlike engineer on Serenity who's upbeat attitude and innocence often clashes with the captain's realism and dangerous plans.
* The final equivalence references the movie, Serenity. In the movie River Tam is pursued by a vicious mercenary (known as The Operative) who stops at nothing to recover her. In Outlaw Star Melfina is pursed by a pair of vicious mercenaries known as the MacDougall Brothers who stops at nothing to recover her.
* Thus, we can see the following connections:
River Tam = Melfina
Malcolm Reynolds = Gene Starwind
Kaylee Frye = Jim Hawking
Jayne Cobb = Aisha Clan-Clan
Shepard Meria Book = "Sunset" Suzuka
Serenity = Gilium (AI of the Outlaw Star)
The Operative = MacDougall Brothers
The Alliance = The Space Forces
Reavers = Space Pirates (particularly the Kei Pirates)
Illegal salvage and smuggling operations = The Outlaws
Full understanding of what the Alliance did to River = The Galactic Leyline (each solves the mysteries of River/Melfina)




I think the original author of the base article should be alerted to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Wapcaplet

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 8:30 PM

DESCENT


I don't think anyone should be surprised at this comparision. They are similar in some aspects especially with Melfina and River. Though River isn't an android, they both have their own mental problems and are trying to find themselves.

Mal: She's a human being. She has a name.
Jayne: So does this. I call her Vera.
Mal: Well the days of me taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle...

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 8:48 PM

DAZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Descent:
I don't think anyone should be surprised at this comparision. They are similar in some aspects especially with Melfina and River. Though River isn't an android, they both have their own mental problems and are trying to find themselves.



My beef isn't with any comparison being made between Firefly and other works. Its the way in which these ones are made and the sheer amount of them. I think Staxringold is telling us that Firefly copies directly and heavily from the one show called "Outlaw Star". And this is all done so in an article meant to be all about Firefly, not put too strong a focus on its "influences".

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 11:00 PM

CAPNRAHN


It almost sounds like the writer is attempting to perpertrate the witchhunt that LucasFilm {or was it 20th Century Fox} afflicted the original BattleStar Galatica with.

I believe that lawsuit had 36 VERY BROAD examples of comparison with Star Wars:A New Hope. BSG lost ...

Anybody remember this SW:ANH/BSG ulginess better than I have reported?

"I've heard more intelligent sounds coming out of a pair of corduroys" - Herbert Phillip Lovecraft from *Cast A Deadly Spell*

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Thursday, August 25, 2005 12:55 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Japan anime/manga freaks

Fact: the majority of Japan cartoons are rubbish apart from about 4 or 5 that the movie critics will admit are ok to watch.

there's something seriously wrong with these folks, they are obsessed with Japanese film cartoons and think everything from Japan is totally original and oscar winning material

ignore these idiots




I think I recall some of that Lucas BSG witch hunt, pot calls kettle black

Lucas himself had already stolen from material and copied film like Fritz lang's Metropolis, Flash Gordon, Kurosawa's Yojimbo, and the 1966 Star Trek TV Series aswell as a heap of other 'stolen' or 'borrowed' material.

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Thursday, August 25, 2005 1:26 AM

VIKINGPHOTOGRAPHY


Quote:

Originally posted by JaynezTown:
Japan anime/manga freaks

Fact: the majority of Japan cartoons are rubbish apart from about 4 or 5 that the movie critics will admit are ok to watch.

there's something seriously wrong with these folks, they are obsessed with Japanese film cartoons and think everything from Japan is totally original and oscar winning material

ignore these idiots



What's funny about all of this is:

At the press conference for the Serenity world premier in Edinburgh, the first question to Joss was regarding the genus for Firefly/Serenity; his (jovial) answer was

"Japanese Anime Porn...."

All of the photog's, reporters and journalists present had a good chuckle at that one.

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Thursday, August 25, 2005 4:15 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by JaynezTown:
Fact: the majority of Japan cartoons are rubbish apart from about 4 or 5 that the movie critics will admit are ok to watch.


I think your confusing fact with your opinion there. But well done for dismissing a big part of an entire peoples culture as rubbish, are you an ambassador perhaps?




The post to wikipedia is unacceptable, a single line saying it can be compared with is one thing, but the above is something else.
May I suggest not getting overly worked up, inform the proper people and all that, but whomever wrote that most likely just wanted to people off.

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Thursday, August 25, 2005 9:44 AM

KENJI88


I also thought Firefly was more like Cowboy Bebop mixed with trigun. i used to watch outlaw star and it wasnt very good.

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Thursday, August 25, 2005 8:14 PM

DAZ


At last, vindication and corrective action within 39 hours!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefly_and_Outlaw_Star

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Thursday, August 25, 2005 8:57 PM

THEGREYJEDI


*kills you with a big anime hammer making a ridiculous anime expression spouting off fan-subbed Japanese.*

--------------------------------------------------------------
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Real Fans Wait - 09/30/05

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 7:29 PM

MURMURER


The page was relocated to the discussion section of the main Firefly article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Firefly_%28television_series%29

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 8:49 PM

DAZ


Thank goodness for this action but we're still not out of the woods yet. If enough Outlaw Star fanboys get together on this, it could force the administrators to restore this contentious piece of crap to the main article.

If that happens then Firefly's reputation will be seriously trivialised on Wikipedia (a widely read internet reference). Then we'll start seeing more and more garbage being put up by other fanboys wanting to pimp their favourite show.

How does a "Firefly and Big Brother" comparison sound? They both feature an enclosed space and a group of people of breeding age who make passes at each other for the audience's prurient entertainment. Ridiculous comparison I know but this is exactly where its going if "Firefly and Outlaw Star" wins inclusion.

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 10:44 PM

MURMURER


Given that most of the votes were for deletion and very few were for re-integration into the main article, I wouldn't worry too much about the fanboys. I've been reading wikipedia's policies, and they seem to be pretty good about discounting biased votes (which is, to be honest, why I haven't voted!) and on limiting opinionated writing in their articles. Feel free to add your own commentary to their discussion if you haven't already - but if you're not registered, keep in mind that despite their open policy, they tend to discount outsider opinions completely when it comes to decisions of this sort.

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 9:04 AM

DREAMTROVE


Okay, I'm new to this, but I'm in bed with pneumonia and nothing better to do. To the insinuation that firefly was heavily derivative of outlaw star my reply would be: Duh! Seriously, thought I haven't seen Outlaw Star, but I've seen Cowboy Bebop, and the evidence that firefly is a cross between the two is overwhelming. The idea that this was not intentional on Joss' part is absurd.

Now for the next part. So What.

No one jumped up and down and said, oh look this Farscape is the same idea as the cheesy 80s brit show Blake's 7, so let's not watch it. Original ideas are good, but they aren't the only thing. Well told stories are also good. This is an idea that has been had before. I don't know about Outlaw Star, but it will go on to my next-to-watch list, because Cowboy Bebop was awesome. Firefly is also awesome. This is another nifty idea that merits being done more that once.

Here's another point for the sticklers:

What if someone had an idea for a TV show like one of the following:

1. Let's have a romance, and set it in a hospital.
2. How about a crime show where the characters are cops?
3. What if we had a comedy, and set it in a dysfunctional family?

Show ideas, even combo show ideas, have been done more than once. I hope everyone recognized the above list as some sample ideas that have been done about 400 times too many. Is there space in this world for 3 space-westerns? sure. There may be space for a dozen for all I know. Was firefly the first? No, obviously not. It probably won't be the last either. I'll probably watch the next one too. I'll also watch the next "we're all a bunnch of escaped prisoner's in a stolen spaceship running away from the law" show.

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 12:00 PM

GEEKMAFIA


okay i'm a fan of Firefly Outlaw star and Cowboy bebop and i noticed the links between the three clearly its not stolen but at the same time it isn't fair to compare it saying all drama rips off shakespeare as there are some very close similarities the two that jumped out at me were

a) we first meet river as she lies naked asleep in a box the situation is identical to when we first see melfina in OS.

b)when river (again) has us believe she has "become" the ship in OIS this really felt like an homage to melfina's ability to become the outlaw star and control it.

but like i said homage not robbery i'm almost certain for these reasons and others i noted that joss has seen / is a fan of OS but i think its more of a sign of respect to a fellow creator not an attempt to steal from a foreign show.



Quote:

Originally posted by JaynezTown:
Japan anime/manga freaks

Fact: the majority of Japan cartoons are rubbish apart from about 4 or 5 that the movie critics will admit are ok to watch.

there's something seriously wrong with these folks, they are obsessed with Japanese film cartoons and think everything from Japan is totally original and oscar winning material

ignore these idiots




there is no need to attack anime fans (please note FANS not freaks we prefer to be called fans) as all the people i know who've seen Firefly and Outlaw star just see it as a nice little nod to the show not a blatent stealing of ideas so calm down and as you may have guessed from the post i'm actually an anime fan AND a Firefly fan so please less of the "There's something wrong with these folks" stuff most of us are pefectly normal people just like most Fireflyfans or any sci-fi fans


WASH: Little River just gets more colorful by the moment. What'll she do next?
ZOE: Either blow us all up or rub soup in our hair. It's a toss-up.
WASH: I hope she does the soup thing. It's always a hoot, and we don't all die from it.


Liou coe shway duh biao-tze huh hoe-tze fuh ur-tze

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Monday, November 14, 2005 3:00 PM

CLJOHNSTON108


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I don't know about Outlaw Star, but it will go on to my next-to-watch list, because Cowboy Bebop was awesome. Firefly is also awesome. This is another nifty idea that merits being done more that once.

Well said! Nothin' wrong with it, as long as it's acknowledged...

COWBOY BEBOP - Homages & Influences - Sessions 1-13
http://rfblues.aaanime.net/Omake/Influences/

I went and looked up this Outlaw Star, and when I saw this...
http://usera.imagecave.com/cljohnston108/CowboyBebop_OutlawStar/17melf
ina.JPG

...I just went "Oh. My. GAWD!"


I have to say, though, regardless of who used it first, the idea of having the person curled up in the fetal position is a stroke of genius: Nobody would ever suspect there's a human body in there, because the container is not in the typical coffin shape!

Some other fun things I noticed...

•Mal & Crew refer to Serenity as a "boat", and the Bebop actually floats!




•The Bebop also has a great big, flat, aerodynamics-killer of a cargo door facing front (but the Bebop's is on top), and a roomy cargo bay (also a rotating ring at its midsection)...





•In Cowboy Bebop, A hyperspace gate between the Earth and the Moon exploded 50 years prior, partially shattering the Moon...




•In Cowboy Bebop, the Internet has evolved into the massive Solar System Web (SSW), accessed by nifty little book-like terminals.



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Monday, November 14, 2005 3:23 PM

PHILYBURKHILL


Cowboy Bebop rocks. Outlaw Star is ok.

I don't think FireFly is a rip off, I just think it's more like great minds thinking alike. It wouldn't surprise me if someone who was involved in the creative process had seen Bebop. It reminded me A LOT of Bebop, which is one of my favourite shows next to FireFly and the main reason I checked FireFly out.

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Monday, November 14, 2005 5:12 PM

CLJOHNSTON108


Quote:

Originally posted by philyburkhill:
I don't think FireFly is a rip off, I just think it's more like great minds thinking alike.

Absolutely!

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Monday, November 14, 2005 5:34 PM

ANGELCRUSHERD


Holy friggin crap! Similarities between unrelated media! Will the sky not crack and fall? Will sow take flight and fire rain upon us?

Come on people, do you honestly think seeing traces of a possible influence in a series means that much? I know naught a person who saw Spaceballs and said "What the hell? They totally ripped off Star Wars..."

I wrote a song a couple days ago and was surprised to find an entire sentence verbatim in a song that I listen to nearly everyday. I didn't steal the sentence, I was influenced subconsciously towards it. If Joss wrote for River to be in a box, he isn't going to change it just because it's been done before. Even if he did intend for the connection to Outlaw star, it wasn't maliciously. Whoever thinks he 'stole' the material shouldn't even be commenting on it, they obviously haven't seen both sides of the matter. I've watched both Outlaw Star and Cowboy Bebop and I can say firsthand that both are quality anime, but fail in comparison to Firefly's depth. Intentional or not, the only bad guys here are the people who can't get over themselves and weigh things proportionally here.

It sounds like Wikipedia needs a few more Browncoats to me.

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Tuesday, November 15, 2005 4:18 AM

BISHAMON


I remember reading how the idea for Firefly came from Cowboy Bebop. Again, very few similarities, apart from the 'space western' theme.

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Tuesday, November 15, 2005 4:40 AM

WORKEROFEVIL


As a fan of Outlaw Star (I'm currently rewatching it courtesy of Netflix), I can see where they see the similarities. The crew flies around on the universe's most advanced spaceship, aliens abound, there are magic using pirates and assassins, the crew is hunting for a mystical treasure, and in the first episode they found a naked girl (android really) in a box. Well, one out of five ain't bad.

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Tuesday, November 15, 2005 5:50 AM

DAZ


I'm probably doing the devil's work here giving him publicity and all but here's the latest version on the content first put up a couple months ago on the main Firefly article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Staxringold/Firefly

For the minority who are so inclined, this will cement their conviction that Firefly is not a homage to or even influenced by Outlaw Star. It is pure plagarism.

For the majority, if they are willing to waste their time in reading this tripe, they will see the ramblings of an anime fundamentalist determined to make the assertion that anime is the only art worth seeing and everything else is either derivative or pitifully inferior. The majority will laugh at the bad grammar, mispellings and the rather primary school quality of the arguments.

For the record, the primary influence for Firefly had nothing to do with Outlaw Star, Cowboy Bebop or anime at all. Not one single reference. The primary influence was from the book "The Killer Angels" which is an account of the Battle of Gettysburg. You can read about here on this very site:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/news.asp?newsid=234

Further, Joss has stated elsewhere that during the time leading up to Firefly, he didn't have time to watch other works let alone anime. When you're writing, directing, executive producing and constantly involved in the creative process of two hit TV shows at once, I doubt you would have the time either.

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Tuesday, November 15, 2005 6:20 AM

ANGELCRUSHERD


Quote:

Originally posted by Daz:
For the minority who are so inclined, this will cement their conviction that Firefly is not a homage to or even influenced by Outlaw Star. It is pure plagarism.



Indeed it is. Pure plagiarism that looks to me like the ramblings of an adolescent. "The title of Firefly is the class of the main character's ship. The title of Outlaw Star is the name of the main character's ship." Where are my shackles? Joss must be detained.

And yes, I did laugh. "Both are aided for the majority of the series by someone other than the person who originally stole them..." Serious business, plagiarism is.

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Tuesday, November 15, 2005 6:31 AM

CLJOHNSTON108


Quote:

Originally posted by Angelcrusherd:
Holy friggin crap! Similarities between unrelated media! Will the sky not crack and fall? Will sow take flight and fire rain upon us?

Yikes!
Quote:

Come on people, do you honestly think seeing traces of a possible influence in a series means that much?
Ummmm, apparently not nearly as much as denying any traces of it.
Quote:

I know naught a person who saw Spaceballs and said "What the hell? They totally ripped off Star Wars..."
Right, because Spaceballs was advertised as a parody of Star Wars.
Quote:

I wrote a song a couple days ago and was surprised to find an entire sentence verbatim in a song that I listen to nearly everyday. I didn't steal the sentence, I was influenced subconsciously towards it.
Reminds me of the Bolton/Isley fiasco. Funny how the entire Isley Brothers version isn't available in any form (that I can find). There's just a tiny sample of them repeating the five-words, "Love is a wonderful thing", over and over...
http://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/projects/law/library/cases/case_threeboysbo
lton.html

I never saw any similarity, beyond the title.
Quote:

If Joss wrote for River to be in a box, he isn't going to change it just because it's been done before. Even if he did intend for the connection to Outlaw star, it wasn't maliciously. Whoever thinks he 'stole' the material shouldn't even be commenting on it, they obviously haven't seen both sides of the matter.
And whoever thinks we're saying he 'stole' the material shouldn't even be commenting on it, because all that's being said is that there are some cool elements shared by these separate works. (At least, that's the direction I'm trying to steer this discussion towards)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefly_(television_series)#Notes
"Some fans have compared Firefly to the anime series Outlaw Star in its style and execution (and certain story content and plot devices). Trigun and Cowboy Bebop also have a similar setting. Most of these similarites are very general, or common to the "Sci-Fi/Western" genre. See also Science fiction Western for a list of other fiction which combines these two genres."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_fiction_Western
Quote:

Intentional or not, the only bad guys here are the people who can't get over themselves and weigh things proportionally here.

No bad guys here. Just an honest brawl between folk.
Although, proportionally-speaking, the ones who perhaps need to get over themselves are those who interpret an acknowledgement of "general similarities" as an accusation of plagiarism.
Quote:

It sounds like Wikipedia needs a few more Browncoats to me.
It sounds like Wikipedia needs a few less panic-prone Browncoats to me.

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Tuesday, November 15, 2005 6:53 AM

ANGELCRUSHERD


I haven't denied any trace of similarity between Firefly and anything, but that's all it is. The kid who wrote the Wiki article might merely be comparing the two, however weird it might make him, which is why I don't care that it exists. And anything I do online is far from panic induced, I'm only online when I have nothing else to do. I don't appreciate any accusation that Joss isn't genuine, but as long as it stays at a comparison level, I'll keep laughing and keep my big boy talk elsewhere.

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Tuesday, November 15, 2005 7:27 AM

GREENFAERIE


Right. All this has done for me is to push me over the line to buy the Outlaw Star DVDs. We can all get along in my house.


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Tuesday, November 15, 2005 2:23 PM

LOUGOJIRA


Comparing similarities is all fine and dandy, and I don't see anything wrong in it myself. But before I came here, I was drumming up any and all enthusiasm I could for the Serenity movie at another forum, and out of nowhere came a guy who went so far as to call Joss Whedon a "no-talent plagerizing ass clown" who "totally ripped off Outlaw Star".

To make it interesting, I asked this man if he was bothered by all the similarities in other anime to movies and shows from America (the door swinging the other way, in other words)...and, naturally, he clammed up.

I love anime to no end...some of my all-time favorite movies and shows have been anime. To add to this, I have met many anime fans who are genuine and good folks that appreciate the medium for what it's worth.

Sadly though, at least here in the states, I've noticed a certain "fringe element" amongst anime fans...certain people who are infatuated with anime simply because of it being Japanese. To this fringe element, no other medium of story-telling can or will exist...no matter how excellent another story is, if it's not Japanese, or Asian for that matter, they'll automatically hate it. I personally think it's a form of drag these misguided people are suffering...they long to be something they're not, hating themselves, hating their surroundings, so they engross themselves with some pop culture from another nation and make it their way of life...even going so far as to tack a "san" or a "sama" onto peoples' names, embracing anything and everything as long as its Japanese no matter how bad it may be (hentai anybody?).

What do I think? I personally don't give a flying crap if Joss Whedon borrowed or "plagerized" anything...I look at final products, and I go with what is the more appealing to me. Besides, if there was so much ripped off from Outlaw Star, why hasn't any lawsuits been filed?

For that matter, if we're going to go on this "who did it first" logic this fringe element clings to when it's convenient for them, then there should be no other car company in the world other than Ford, Taito should be the only video game company making shooters since they were first with "Space Invaders", and there should've never been another transforming robot comic or show out of their beloved and perfect utopian Japan since "Tanku Tankuro" came out in the 1930's! (*whew* run-on sentence!)

Sorry if I got on a soap-box.

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Tuesday, November 15, 2005 3:21 PM

VOLANGENERAL


I belive in Outlaw star I can swear remembering a "special" bullet that makes a black hole or something like that. To my knowlege I have never seen that on Firefly. (this a small diffrence but I still think Outlaw Star was a little more serious and unbeliveble, personaly i never broke out laughing while whatching it)

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Tuesday, November 15, 2005 3:31 PM

LOUGOJIRA


Quote:

Originally posted by VolanGeneral:
I belive in Outlaw star I can swear remembering a "special" bullet that makes a black hole or something like that. To my knowlege I have never seen that on Firefly.



Oh but wait! There was something similar!

Remember in the "Our Mrs. Reynolds" episode, when Jayne fires Vera at the space station?! The effect it had was the bad guys being sucked out into space when the windows bursted (similar to the effects of a graviational pull of a black hole)! And Vera is a very special gun to Jayne! This proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt! Joss Whedon totally ripped that off too!

Sorry...I'm not being serious at all...I just figured I'd beat some Japanophile to that ridiculous conclusion.

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Tuesday, November 15, 2005 3:56 PM

ANGELCRUSHERD


Bah forget you guys.

...unless you're Japanese.

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Tuesday, November 15, 2005 4:05 PM

CLJOHNSTON108


Quote:

Originally posted by LouGojira:
I just figured I'd beat some Japanophile to that ridiculous conclusion.

Ummmm, no.
You get to keep that one all to yourself.

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Tuesday, November 15, 2005 5:59 PM

WORKEROFEVIL


Quote:

Originally posted by VolanGeneral:
I belive in Outlaw star I can swear remembering a "special" bullet that makes a black hole or something like that. To my knowlege I have never seen that on Firefly. (this a small diffrence but I still think Outlaw Star was a little more serious and unbeliveble, personaly i never broke out laughing while whatching it)



The "bullet" you're talking about was a number 4 caster shell. It was one of the special ones Gene got just before going to the Galactic Leyline.

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Wednesday, November 16, 2005 1:12 AM

CLJOHNSTON108


It really isn't that big of a deal to recycle cool ideas!
"There's nothing new under the sun." (or so they say) There's just new combinations!

Listen to what Joss himself says...

Quote:

http://www.foxhome.com/firefly/assets/videos/joss/2_4.mov

"It's a science fiction western drama action comedy hybrid, much like all the shows I do. It's something I haven't seen on TV for a while. I'm not sure if I've ever seen all of the elements in place. It's got a great deal of action, and a great deal, obviously, of cool spaceships and all the things I love in science fiction, but it's actually just really Stagecoach. It's using a nice compelling setting, a journey in this case, hopefully a very looooong journey, to learn about people, and see their interactions, and see what makes them tick, and learn about society and life and what it all means... but with action... and a whore!"

http://www.foxhome.com/firefly/assets/videos/joss/2_6.mov

"I don't know if there's anything that I'll ever do that anybody's never seen before... but this show is new in the sense of the way it treats the future..."



I could happily go to my grave never having heard the term "rip-off" again.

I just wanna talk about the "independently cool" bits that all these works share!

I mean, it's just plain undeniably COOL how the simple word "boat" connects Firefly to Cowboy Bebop...

Jayne: "The only people she's a threat to is us on this boat!"
The Bebop floats, so it's literally a BOAT after it makes planetfall.

Can't ignore some'n like that!

Moving on...

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Monday, November 21, 2005 5:25 PM

LOUGOJIRA


Quote:

Originally posted by cljohnston108:
Quote:

Originally posted by LouGojira:
I just figured I'd beat some Japanophile to that ridiculous conclusion.

Ummmm, no.
You get to keep that one all to yourself.



Then I guess I better zip it with the whole "Wash and Zoe being an inter-racial relationship rip-off of Roy Fokker and Claudia Grant from Macross" theory huh? *lol*

Just funnin' around...I just hope some Japanophile somewhere hasn't honestly thought something so absurd...

Maybe I should be worried that this has even occured to me as a joke!

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Wednesday, January 28, 2015 11:05 AM

LT_BADGER


It is very true that the non-storyline elements are directly comparable to Outlaw Star, which in it's own right is a great work. 1.) A ship that is considered a hunk of junk piloted by roguish types. 2.)Young innocent female genius mechanic. 3.)Girl found in a cryogenic box who is a genius and has psychic powers. It does go on. HOWEVER, Firefly is a completely different animal in execution and is AMAZING. Do not let the defense of something we are ALL passionate about blind you to facts. Check out Outlaw Star, it is a great series, and it goes it out say, so if Firefly and YES they are different shows, however there are core elements that link them.

Keep flying.

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