Was it the mixed marriage they didn't like? by Nellie

Yeah, I doubt it.

Oh, he's so full of manure, that man! We could lay him in the dirt and grow another one just like him.
-- Ruby

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Saturday, January 14, 2006 5:24 AM

BLINKER

Quote:
Thinking about that, how many HAPPY, SUCCESSFUL mixed marriages have ever been shown on television or in movies?

Star Trek is full of 'em: O'Brien and Keiko, Paris and Torres, Worf and Jadzia. (That last marriage ended in death, but only because Terry Farrell asked to leave the series.)

_________
Sliders: Gate Haven - http://slidersweb.net/blinker

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Saturday, January 14, 2006 5:45 AM

I dunno. I've heard Joss talking about how Fox did, in fact, object strenously to the idea of having a married couple on the ship. I don't remember hearing that it had anything to do with the mixed race issue, but it's certainly possible. If it wasn't that, it's almost more perplexing. Why would they have been so opposed to having a happily married couple on the crew?? Does their 'market research' (how I loathe the term) tell them marriage is somehow offensive to their 'demographic'(that one too)?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Saturday, January 14, 2006 5:59 AM

VIKING

what is this thing you got over ther against mixed marriges ?

The wages of sin are death, but the hours are good and the perks are fantastic.

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Saturday, January 14, 2006 6:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dax82:
Thats the dumbest thing Ive ever heard.

On the other hand, a black man felt the urge to say "George Bush doesn't care about black people" in front of millions - makes you think, doesn't it? Maybe the prejudices are still deep seated somewhere in the American heads.

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Saturday, January 14, 2006 6:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Viking:
what is this thing you got over ther against mixed marriges ?

The wages of sin are death, but the hours are good and the perks are fantastic.

It's this thing called 'racism'. You've never heard of it?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Saturday, January 14, 2006 6:08 AM

VIKING

well i kinda thogth racism was more a minority thing

but i guess the majority off the american pepole are racist then

if they dont want mix mariges

The wages of sin are death, but the hours are good and the perks are fantastic.

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Saturday, January 14, 2006 6:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Why would they have been so opposed to having a happily married couple on the crew?? Does their 'market research' (how I loathe the term) tell them marriage is somehow offensive to their 'demographic'(that one too)?

I doubt there is anything particularly offensive about marriage for the Firefly demographic, and I don’t know what Fox was thinking. But maybe because they wanted to parody the show. Fox never had any faith in Firefly; from the outset they were opposed to any serious depiction of anything in the show.

Oh, he's so full of manure, that man! We could lay him in the dirt and grow another one just like him.
-- Ruby

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Saturday, January 14, 2006 7:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Viking:
well i kinda thogth racism was more a minority thing

but i guess the majority off the american pepole are racist then

if they dont want mix mariges

The wages of sin are death, but the hours are good and the perks are fantastic.

I'd like to think it is a minority, but its still around. But we tend to whitewash over it. It is enough people that I think networks get antsy about offending them and tinker with their shows to accomodate. Personally, I'm glad Joss fought them on this issue even if it did lose a few potential fans. Let the racist squirm. It'll be good for them.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Saturday, January 14, 2006 8:16 AM

ROCKETJOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by dax82:
Thats the dumbest thing Ive ever heard.

Oh? How about "Hey, let's schedule this "Firefly" show in the Friday evening Sci-Fi death slot?"

As for network resistance to Wash & Zoe's salt-and-pepper marriage: As half of one myself, I have come across a certain amount of prejudice. But, as both I and my wife suffer from a like prejudice against closed-minded morons, it tends to even out.

Plus, people, even prejudiced people, are pre-desposed to accept things in TV shows that they might feel uncomfortable around in real life. I doubt a mixed marriage in a Science-Fiction show would have raised that many eyebrows. It sounds more like a Fox Exec who had already made up his mind to hate Firefly looking for another excuse.

Oh, and last note: as to those Star Trek marriages cited, only the O'Brians are a mixed marriage in the modern sense; regardless of the ancestry of the actors involved, the others are inter-species marriage, not inter-racial. Outside of that woman in Britain who married a dolphin earlier this year, I don't know of any real-world examples of that.

Geez. I hope they have a pre-nup.

"Kaylee, get that kid who's hugging dirt with Baby Jesus. We need a hood ornament." -- "Skippy" Reynolds (Mal's evil twin.)

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Saturday, January 14, 2006 8:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:
Plus, people, even prejudiced people, are pre-desposed to accept things in TV shows that they might feel uncomfortable around in real life. I doubt a mixed marriage in a Science-Fiction show would have raised that many eyebrows. It sounds more like a Fox Exec who had already made up his mind to hate Firefly looking for another excuse.

That’s my point. With the number of homosexual themes being bandied about in television shows, even on Fox, it seems to belie the facts to suggest that a largely restrained interracial marriage subplot in a science fiction show was the reason Fox had a problem with Firefly. It just smells of bullshit.

Oh, he's so full of manure, that man! We could lay him in the dirt and grow another one just like him.
-- Ruby

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Saturday, January 14, 2006 8:39 AM

I think you can't compare homosexuality with racism. The latter has a long, painful history. The other is a social concept parts of the society obviously can't accept yet. Two largely different issues in my eyes.

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Saturday, January 14, 2006 8:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
That’s my point. With the number of homosexual themes being bandied about in television shows, even on Fox, it seems to belie the facts to suggest that a largely restrained interracial marriage subplot in a science fiction show was the reason Fox had a problem with Firefly. It just smells of bullshit.

Yeah, It think you're right. But they did argue vehemently with Joss to take the married couple aspect out. I've heard this from several different sources. I wonder if they just didn't decide that their presumed audience wouldn't have the maturity to track adult relationship issues? I think this might have been it. I think a lot of network execs tend to look at scifi fans and infantile in many ways.

This only shows, once again, how Fox never really wanted what Firefly offered, namely mature drama and interesting character development.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Saturday, January 14, 2006 8:46 AM

ROCKETJOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:

This only shows, once again, how Fox never really wanted what Firefly offered, namely mature drama and interesting character development.

Yeah, it seems that Fox's concept of the Science-Fiction viewership is innumerable 13-year old males in "I Grok Spock" T-Shirts, all trying to find nude shots of Lucy Lawless on the web.

"Hermanos! The Devil is building a Robot! Andale!" -- Numero Cinco

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Saturday, January 14, 2006 8:47 AM

ROCKETJOCK

Gorram double post!

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Saturday, January 14, 2006 9:09 AM

SIMONWHO

Quote:
Originally posted by CBY:
I think you can't compare homosexuality with racism. The latter has a long, painful history. The other is a social concept parts of the society obviously can't accept yet. Two largely different issues in my eyes.

But they're both based on the same principle: "Look at that person; they're not like us. They must be inferior."

And how is homosexuality a social concept? Not to mention that it also has a long painful history too.

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Saturday, January 14, 2006 9:13 AM

PROSERPINE

Quote:
Originally posted by Viking:
well i kinda thogth racism was more a minority thing

but i guess the majority off the american pepole are racist then

if they dont want mix mariges

As a white girl dating a Dominican and going to school in the whitest state in the nation, I have to admit that my boyfriend and I get some strange looks when we go to Walmart together. On the other hand, interracial couples are a non-issue on our liberal and relatively diverse campus. So the answer to your question is, it depends on where you are and who you are with. Furthermore, those people in Walmart aren't necessarily racist, but rather surprised.

I mean, when was the last time you saw an interracial couple in a commercial? It's still a touchy and/or unusual subject for many people (of all races).

I also think that if Fox objected to the marriage, it was for the reasons other people have mentioned - namely that TV execs think all sci-fi geeks are drooling adolescent boys.

Wow, I had no idea my wallpaper would start a discussion!

P.S. Where are you from, Viking? I want to learn about the magical land without racism.

"Dear Diary, Today I was pompous and my sister was crazy. Today we were kidnapped by hill folk never to be seen again. It was the best day ever."

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Saturday, January 14, 2006 9:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by CBY:
I think you can't compare homosexuality with racism. The latter has a long, painful history. The other is a social concept parts of the society obviously can't accept yet. Two largely different issues in my eyes.

I think you can compare the two, and I think there are far more people who hold reservations about the issue of homosexuality on tv then that hold reservations about interracial marriages. Yet that has not stopped networks. Largely, I think, because neither of these issues is held as particularly unacceptable television by the vast majority of Americans, and the networks know it.

In 1990, “True Colors,” a sitcom about an interracial couple, aired on Fox and ran for 3 seasons.

I don’t know what the Fox execs told Joss, but I don’t doubt that they may have used an interracial marriage issue as one of their complaints. It had nothing to do with racism, though. It had to do with Fox execs making stuff up to complain about. I’m sure they insisted that Zoe was a dumb name, Mal is too tall, Wash looks stupid in a Hawaiian shirt and the American viewer simply will not accept Hawaiian shirts on a guy named Wash. We, as Americans, have a long and noble tradition of not liking people with Hawaiian shirts, everyone knows that.

Can't you people see Bullshit when you hear it? What ever the motives were for the Fox execs complaints, it had nothing to do with racism. They just didn’t like the show, and nothing was going to make them like it.

Oh, he's so full of manure, that man! We could lay him in the dirt and grow another one just like him.
-- Ruby

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Saturday, January 14, 2006 9:22 AM

Quote:
how is homosexuality a social concept? Not to mention that it also has a long painful history too.

Why not? What would you call it? A disease?

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http://www.byond-trax.com - my selfmade ambient/lounge/chillout music

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Saturday, January 14, 2006 1:10 PM

AUNTYCHRIS

This is an interesting, if not disturbing,angle I had not even thought of. If Fox actually complained about the marriage thing, I think that indicates that they wanted Firefly to be a "shoot-em-up" kind of SciFi rather than the thoughtful character study (with action) that it was. BUT, I do not discount the possiblity that some might be put off by the interracial aspect. To them I say simply "EVOLVE" for christ sake. We are all "on the same planet" so we'd dang well work on getting along (that includes homophobics).

PS One of the first interracial couples on TV, by the way, were one "The Jeffersons". Don't remember their names, but their daughter married George and "Weezy's" son, so that's actually "two for the price of one". How do you like that score, Racists?

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Saturday, January 14, 2006 1:28 PM

SIMONWHO

Quote:
Originally posted by CBY:
Quote:
how is homosexuality a social concept? Not to mention that it also has a long painful history too.

Why not? What would you call it? A disease?

I would think your wink was just an ironic jest at how you couldn't possibly think a biological fact throughout many different species could possibly be considered a disease. Except for the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Americans who actually do think homosexuality is a disease and can, should and ought to be cured. What's worse is that some of these people think themselves compassionate as they want to cure gays by brainwashing techniques.

I suspect if there had been a gay couple on board Serenity, it wouldn't have made it past the pitch. (Note: Lesbians are totally different because they appeal to the 16-25 demographic. Just make sure any "plot" concerning them is skipped over but keep the sex scenes in.)

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Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:

But they did argue vehemently with Joss to take the married couple aspect out. I've heard this from several different sources.

This only shows, once again, how Fox never really wanted what Firefly offered, namely mature drama and interesting character development.
SergeantX

Wow! I had no idea that actually happened!

All these posts are so interesting---I'm so grateful to everybody for responding. Thanks to Proserpine, too, for the images that inspired it, and for her courage in standing up for her love.

One thing about racism: it's not fair to only blame Americans, because Fox is owned by Australians, as Calhoun pointed out in another thread. And even oriental cultures have this fault...

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Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:41 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:
Yeah, it seems that Fox's concept of the Science-Fiction viewership is innumerable 13-year old males in "I Grok Spock" T-Shirts, all trying to find nude shots of Lucy Lawless on the web.

Just wanted to point out that:
1 This seems to be true, they have no understanding of sci-fi fans.
2 Grok is a great word, and the book it comes from is great too. Odd thing is that I got directed to it by an extremely prudish catholic girl, never would have expected her to like that content (and I'm not talking about the sci-fi.)

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Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:44 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by proserpine:
P.S. Where are you from, Viking? I want to learn about the magical land without racism.

There was a time when I thought racism was something that didn't happen anymore too. Perhaps Viking is just young.

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Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:55 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
(Note: Lesbians are totally different because they appeal to the 16-25 demographic. Just make sure any "plot" concerning them is skipped over but keep the sex scenes in.)

When I was writing a book a while ago I had a scene where two of the characters sat down and talked about if their life was a movie, it was an attempt on their part to get over a trauma by making light of the situation, and one of the things I felt it necessary to put in was that the lesbian couple they knew would:
1 Be extremely attractive.
2 Be publicly sexual.
3 Wear very little clothing.
and
4 Have no brains to speak of.

-

More accurately one of the characters I created felt it necessary to put that in.

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Saturday, January 14, 2006 5:18 PM

COMPANION6

Personally I don't think it was the interacial marriage of Zoe and Wash, my honest opinion 20 Century Fox leaders are STUPID. They have gotten rid of some very good and entertaining shows in the recent past.
Now as far as there not being anymore racism in America or the rest of the world that is not true. This has been going on since the dawn of time and it will never end. It is ingrained in the human being untill we stop raising our children to hate what they dont know, understand or fear, it will never stop. Once we ALL become enlightned then we won't have to worry about such things. And this coming from an African American Woman who dates men of all races.

Always Remember "The Litany Of Fear"

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Saturday, January 14, 2006 5:22 PM

TANSTAAFL28

No I don't think that's the problem here. Most folk who would watch good science-fiction like our show aren't the kind that would hold to silly notions that skin color is a social barrier.

Physically, our blood is the same color, our genetics are virtually identical, and we were all born on the same planet.

"Race" is a made-up term by folks who want us to believe we are easily separated by differences of nationality, culture, society, and general disposition. All it really does is keep us from truly seeing how alike we really are.

The folks at Fox got their dander up because FF wasn't appealing to a wide enough audience in a timely manner, bringing them them increased advertising revenue. That's all they really care about.

"You can't take the sky from me..."

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Saturday, January 14, 2006 8:07 PM

SHUTTLE2

I seriously doubt that's what it was. I mean wouldn't that be discrimination of some kind?? THey wouldn't be able to do that....

....mind you people do stupid things all the time.

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Sunday, January 15, 2006 3:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shuttle2:
....mind you people do stupid things all the time.

Yes, they do...

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Sunday, January 15, 2006 4:17 AM

VIKING

ow ther is racism over her do not so muche that companys will not have blacks and whites come up on tv or psoters togther

and yes the oter part o your argument migth be rigth to i am maybe a bit younge

The wages of sin are death, but the hours are good and the perks are fantastic.

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Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:04 AM

SHEPARD

First off, Viking, I'd like to apologize for all the abuse you've received in this thread. It is ironic that in a thread discussing intolerance you have been repeatedly demeaned. As a fellow fan, I think you're entitled to respect for your opinions, & I wish we could all live in a world where racism was more theoretical than real.

Second, I work with an interracial lesbian couple & I asked them once which bothered people more, whether they were gay or salt & pepper. They just laughed & said that if someone objected to one, they usually objected to the other, and so as a couple they never bothered to differentiate.

Married couples are boring for dramas unless they cat around a lot; that's why you usually see them in sitcoms.

Hell. It's Special.

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Sunday, January 15, 2006 7:24 AM

EARLYWARNING

I believe in the commentary to the pilot "Serenity",
Joss states that Fox objected to a happily married couple.
Happy equals boring.
Viewers like to talk about couples relationships.
I.E. gossip
Mal and Inara " oh why don't they..." and "Did you.."
Same thing with Simon and Kaylee.
A happy Wash and Zoe gets a "oh there so cute. Did you see Jaynes new gun?"
Angst, guilt and trust, are what keep viewers hooked, not happy. Thats why you rarely see happy on tv, It's boring.

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Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:43 PM

URSULA

Quote:
Originally posted by auntychris:
PS One of the first interracial couples on TV, by the way, were one "The Jeffersons". Don't remember their names, but their daughter married George and "Weezy's" son, so that's actually "two for the price of one". How do you like that score, Racists?

The couple was Tom and Helen Willis, and their daughter Jenny married Lionel Jefferson, George and Louise's son. Tom was white, Helen was black. Jenny looked black. Their son (whose name I cannot remember right now) showed up in a later season and looked white.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 7:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Earlywarning:
I believe in the commentary to the pilot "Serenity",
Joss states that Fox objected to a happily married couple.
Happy equals boring.

If a happy marriage is so boring, why did Reese Witherspoon just win a Golden Globe Award for portraying a happily married woman?

No, Earlywarning, I can't let you get away with that. If a happy marriage is so boring, why is it the dream of most people on the planet?

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Monday, January 16, 2006 7:58 PM

RITAK7

Has anyone seen I believe it is an ad for internet provider or a computer but it features a black mom a white dad and 3 kids with fabulous hair. There is also a show on UPN which my friends and i call BET-called half and half about half sisters. The elder sister Mona gets kicked to the curb by q guy cause she's not ethnic enough so she tells this to her mother. mom's response "What you are balck and Jewish theonly way you could be more ethnic is if you wnt and played the bagpipes."
on the same network is a show called Girlfriends a couple that was married for like a year and decided to divorceon the day their child was born (um...hello how wacked is that?) the wife was a black Christian and the husband a white Jew

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Monday, January 16, 2006 8:29 PM

CHOPPYBADGER

Well, anyway, I remember hearing in a commentary on the Series DVD, I think "Train Job" that Fox didn't like the theory of it being Sci-Fi-Western and didn't like that people were riding horses. That is why they did not air 'Serenity'. And also the fact that 'Serenity' was too good for them and they probably could not understand it with their simple minds.

Heresy grows from Grottiness...

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Monday, January 16, 2006 8:56 PM

RUSSELL

hi, i think what did the show in was lack of publicity. i never even heard of it until the sci-fi channel started promoting it and the movie. but its one of the very few shows that ive actually been compelled to search for info online about.

i watched the movie for the first time tonight (finally). and i sat there with my mouth hanging open in shock when wash died. i kept waiting for the doctor to arrive and fix him up. when the movie ended and he was still dead i just couldnt believe it. how could they kill him off in the movie but he was alive and well in the weekly show.

so i had to start searching online to find out what the heck was going on. i cant even tell you how bummed out i am tonight. i think someone made a big mistake cancelling this show.

i think the cast and writing was excellent. the episodes were funny and entertaining, the writers did a great job. i really cant even express how disappointed i am. such a good and entertaining show that never had a chance. and all the loose ends left like inara and mal, zoe dealing with wash's death, everything :( how depressing.

its like reading a good book and getting half way through it, then seeing that the remaining pages are all blank.

oh well... life goes on. just very disappointed tonight

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by russell:

Its like reading a good book and getting half way through it, then seeing that the remaining pages are all blank.

What a wonderful way to express it! That's exactly how I feel, too.

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 4:53 AM

Originally posted by russell:

Its like reading a good book and getting half way through it, then seeing that the remaining pages are all blank.

River6213:
That actually sums up my Firefly experience for me.

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 4:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shepard:
...I wish we could all live in a world where racism was more theoretical than real.

I totally agree with that, thanks for adding it.

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 5:14 AM

IMALEAF

Spoilers:
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I never really thought of Zoe as black or Wash as white I thought I them as a couple. I don't think Wash was killed off because his realtionship with Zoe was crosses lines in peoples eyes. The orignal show didn't get seen enough for the marriage to upset people. And if it had upset people back then, then maybe it would have given the show some media attention and the show could have gone on??

I believe Wash died in his moment of glory, and he died for the feeling of all is lost. Haven was destroyed, book died, Wash died, most of the crew having a stand down with the Reavers. EVERYONE gets hurt, and then Mal getting the crap beat out of him by the Operative. I think Joss killed Wash because he wanted to fool us into thinking that this was the end for everyone.

OO and one last thing.....the Operative I believe he went and threw himself on his sword.

~~River: Bible's broken. Contradictions, false logics. Doesn't make sense.~~

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 5:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
Well, Star Trek TNG had an Irish-Asian mixed marriage.

Asian/White unions are unspoken, approved versions of interracial relationships than White/Black unions.

Asian/White couples are approved mainly because of the white males misguded view of the Asian woman, but thats another topic all together.

This is something I notice on television, movies, and in public. I see people getting visibly upset when there is an black/white couple, but I almost never see public disapproval when its Asian/White combination, but also it depends WHERE you are in the USA that matters.

Some places like California, or Washington State may not have as much problems as compared with Iowa or Texas.

Believe it or not there are places in the USA where interracial relationships are seen in the same light as homosexuality, or beastiality, which is the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. And a lot of these idiots believe that God is against interracial interaction, and they say they can prove it in their bibles...**PLACE SWEAR WORD HERE**

Wash and Zoe loved each other. The actors played the characters well, and it was easy to believe that they were a married couple. They looked good together. I think that most normal people wouldnt have a problem with these two people getting together.

My 1st thought regarding Zoe and Wash, when I got that they were married, when I 1st watched the show was: What a beautiful woman, why is she with that wimpy guy?

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 5:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by CBY:
Quote:
Originally posted by dax82:
Thats the dumbest thing Ive ever heard.

On the other hand, a black man felt the urge to say "George Bush doesn't care about black people" in front of millions - makes you think, doesn't it? Maybe the prejudices are still deep seated somewhere in the American heads.

A lot of you have really been taken in by all the propaganda regarding the USA. Racism is alive and well here, but the level or racism depends on WHERE you are in the United States, and your level of education, status, and visibility.

Anyone living here in North America who believes that racism no longer exists in America has to be white, living in a isolated area, and is totally uninformed....basically, they are idiots stumbling about in the dark of complete ignorance.

make a man out of a Mouse!

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 5:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
Well, Star Trek TNG had an Irish-Asian mixed marriage.

Thats so dumb!

Its like a few years ago when i was arging with a friend about interracial relationships and the general publics view of it. My friend believed that there was no more racism in the United States, and he pointed out the fact that John Lennon and Yoko Ono were an interracial couple, and no one had a problem with that.

**John and Yoko?**

Some people are so dumb that it sometimes makes me want to cry.

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 5:53 AM