Miranda: What's going on? by TakenBaxter

It seems to me that the woman who made the report crashed on the planet. It looks like she was a scientist and was gathering data when she discovered the results. The side of the ship said "Research and Rescue" or something like that. So she may not have even been planetside long enough for any kind of effects to her.

Alas, like the Book mystery, some answers will never see the light of day.

You know, they tell ya to never hit a man with a closed fist, but it is, on occasion, hilarious.

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 10:35 AM

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 11:08 AM

KAYNA

I love my captain

It's possible that the PAX was limited in amount. When you're checking reactions to an experimental substance you don't just dump folk in a vat of the stuff and say "enjoy!"
Too much could very easily kill them in horrible ways and then you don't have any real data.
What you do is start with small, measured amounts and then see how they react to that. If, after careful observation, you conclude that nothing is happening, then you give them some more.

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 1:00 PM

JOCKOCKEYOCK

After watching the movie till I almost memorized it I came to the conclusion that the Alliance was trying to make a home outside of the other Anti alliance worlds and moons to trap those in-between its sadistical beliefs and the free thinkers. They were attempting to suffocate the last of the independence or rather stop them from happening. They decided the best way to keep their control so far out was to drug the people of the planet so no one would ever have the mind enough for a proper opinion. They wanted the people to be robots clean, sophisticated, peaceful, bright with no dark spots,…. almost like how Simon was but less of his character and no mind enough to go against their “leaders.”

Miranda reminded me of another movie that I watched, Equilibrium. Well don’t want to pull the attention off Serenity but the movie was about a society of people that are emotionally repressed. And sadly enough it is supposed to be the perfect society and in actuality they had only created a world of perfect killers.

The court of this obsession, is abstracted from possession which when the worlds of outside in fall.

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 1:20 PM

SICKDUDE

Sorry, folks, but I had a completely different take on it all.

Miranda being furthest out is coincidence, mostly. There are a certain number of planets that can be terraformed, and Miranda was one still workable but far out. They planned on putting people on all of them.

Now, if you do the math, the Pax was added a bit before the war. About the time the outer planets (including Miranda) were contemplating rebellion. So the Pax was meant as a way to head off the civil war. Only, it didn't go well...

Never read into it that they took a population and just decided to experiment on them.

"It's a cow."

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 1:23 PM

KIZYR

Quote:
Originally posted by TakenBaxter:
When Kaylee said Shepard Book had said that Reavers are just men that reached the end of space and saw a vast nothingness and went insane.

That might be overreaching quite a bit. You could easily figure the same thing based on where Reaver attacks were occurring: Lilac, Whitefall, e.g. Those are places out on the edge of space; so figures that the best guess is that's the 'edge of space' from where Reavers originate. KF

~KF

Lord, I'm walking your way. Let me in, for my feet are sore, my clothes are ragged.
Look in my eyes, Lord, and my sins will play out on them as on a screen. Read them all.
Forgive what you can and send me on my path. I will walk on until you bid me rest.
~Haven Prayer

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 1:33 PM

LEIGHKOHL

In comparison to the movie Equilibrium - You can even go further back to Huxley's Brave New World. It's about a futuristitic society that is controlled by drugs and a caste system imposed from birth. There are savages in a desert "frontier" setting and the name was also garnered from Shakespeare's The Tempest as well. It was written in 1932 and you can see themes of it resonate in works even today. It's a dystopia just as Miranda was. When I was watching in the theater with my best friend, he leaned over and whispered, "Huxley" when we saw the Miranda scene with Sara Paulson. It was creepy cause I was thinking the same thing and even in the commentary Joss mentitons it somewhere I think. If you can check it out, it's a quick read like Orwell and Vonnegut.

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 2:18 PM

@TakenBaxter:
"""
This is overreaching isn't it.
"""

IMO, yes it is.

And Book didn't say that, Kaylee did. Book just said that they might have lost touch with there human side but they were still men.

@AZBrowncoat:
The woman on the ship didn't crash on the planet. From what she said, the Alliance lost contact with the planet and they were sent to find out what happened.

But yes, the effects of a lot of chemicals take time to show themselves. So, if the PAX was still in the air, because nothing smelled funny, or was wrong (Mal didn't make a funny face with that deep breath and the sensors didn't show anything) it was probably very dilute to begin with.

But, then again, was the PAX still in the air? The Alliance wouldn't have pumped more in the air if there was no population to experiment on. Also, the environment might have broken it down. Possibly like trees convert CO_{2} to O_{2}.

@Jockockeyock:
I don't think that that is what was going on. When you experiment with things that you clearly don't want to get out, you tend to do the experimenting somewhere where people don't go ie a remote location. Miranda is rather remote.

That being said, they might have thought that this would be a side benifit if everything worked out the way they planned. But, with things like this, you always have to plan on Murphy.

@SickDude:
"""
Never read into it that they took a population and just decided to experiment on them.
"""

If you remember the scene when River showed them Miranda, Kaylee (I believe) said that she remembered a few years back a call for settlers on a planet called Miranda. Not a thing about it after that. So, this does seem to indicate an intention to experiment. I would think that any math stating otherwise is a mistake on the part of Joss.

@In general:

I'm going to agree with Algus on this one. The easiest way to get people out onto a planet to experiment on them is 1) don't tell you're going to experiment on them; make something up and 2) offer something to them to lure them to where you want them.

I really think that constructing something more complicated and nefarious is reaching way beyond what is actually there. My logic: This was a movie designed to appease the masses. The masses can't handle anything complex (at least anymore). So, when there is nothing in the movie that states anything complicated...

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 2:34 PM

MISSTRESSAHARA

Quote:
Originally posted by TakenBaxter:
Ok this may be a little overreaching but i was thinking that maybe Book had some connection to Miranda. I'm not sure on how it would all work out it it was true, but here's what gave me this little idea:
When Kaylee said Shepard Book had said that Reavers are just men that reached the end of space and saw a vast nothingness and went insane.
Well from what i can see from all the maps and starlog things Miranda is the furthest planet out, so it could very well be what he meant by the edge of space.

This is overreaching isn't it.

Rabbits are Roadkill

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Have to correct you here, Mal was the one who said that line, agreeing with Jayne when Jayne said "They ain't men." Book says something along the lines of "Of course they are, perhaps too long removed from society , but still men." and Mal responds "Jayne's right, they aint men. They flew out to the edge of the black where there was nothing and that's what they became." I wish I could remember the exact quotes, I hate miss-quotes.

Shepard Book was responding because of his new teachings and belief. He didn't want to believe there could be no-one who was redeemable (which is why he was on the boat, for Mal's sake than anyone else's.) However, since the movie has seemed to contradict a few things from the show the possibility that Book knew about Miranda, if only the planet and not the Pax would be another mystery to add to an already growing number. So it could be he knew a little of their origin, at the least, knew from the direction the Reaver territory came from that they COULD have come from there. I dunno, as I said, the movie contradicts a few things from the show.

If I'm a bitch, then life just got interesting

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 2:40 PM

THENCDUCK

Miranda reminded me of another movie that I watched, Equilibrium. Well don’t want to pull the attention off Serenity but the movie was about a society of people that are emotionally repressed. And sadly enough it is supposed to be the perfect society and in actuality they had only created a world of perfect killer

I didn't even think about that, but it does remind me a little bit of Equilibrium (great movie by the way) except they knew about what was happening.

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 6:03 PM

NATVANYA

like the dude who like said jock didn't get the concept i think u need help.. no affence and all but see what i beleive she's trying to say is
.... they were trying to drug people so they could control them not experiment on them that was after all an accedent... i mean if realy the aliece was entitaled to experimenting they would have been all over miranda studdying the reavers.... not acting like it was something to hide. they didnt want what happend to happen so then how was it an experiment... it was a basic ploy from a gov to contain and detain its slaves either by choice or by obligation to lies.....

Jockockeyock is me sizister

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 7:15 PM

NOSADSEVEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Kayna:
It's possible that the PAX was limited in amount. When you're checking reactions to an experimental substance you don't just dump folk in a vat of the stuff and say "enjoy!"
Too much could very easily kill them in horrible ways and then you don't have any real data.
What you do is start with small, measured amounts and then see how they react to that. If, after careful observation, you conclude that nothing is happening, then you give them some more.

"Too much could very easily kill them in horrible ways..."

Umm, isn't that exactly what happened?

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 5:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

@AZBrowncoat:
The woman on the ship didn't crash on the planet. From what she said, the Alliance lost contact with the planet and they were sent to find out what happened.

I thought they did. Because the ship was half buried in a building and in the commentary Joss said he should have done more to make it look like the ship had crashed.

Or did I dream up something again.

Either way, this thread has got my mind churning. May have to follow through with a plan for a fic.

You know, they tell ya to never hit a man with a closed fist, but it is, on occasion, hilarious.

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 5:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

@AZBrowncoat:
The woman on the ship didn't crash on the planet. From what she said, the Alliance lost contact with the planet and they were sent to find out what happened.

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 9:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AzBrowncoat:

I thought they did. Because the ship was half buried in a building and in the commentary Joss said he should have done more to make it look like the ship had crashed.

Or did I dream up something again.

Either way, this thread has got my mind churning. May have to follow through with a plan for a fic.

Oh, they did crash. But I imagine that was the reavers work when they were trying to get off planet after they figured things out.

She did say that it was what they thought it was.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 9:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nosadseven:

"Too much could very easily kill them in horrible ways..."

Umm, isn't that exactly what happened?

Accident. Not intention.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 9:34 AM

RAE

I remember them saying that the PAX was only an active "virus" (for lack of a better word at the moment) for a limited time. I just figured the search and rescue people got there after it was no longer a threat, and so they were not effected.

Rae Y

No power in the 'verse can stop me

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 9:47 AM

If you look at it in Earth terms the Core worlds are like Edwardian Europe, they have all the industry, civilisation and a very ordered society. The border planets are like an Independent east coast USA of that time, there are places like Persephone that are starting to get very "Core" and people are starting to move away from those places to find better opertunities. It's these planets that are starting secondary colonisation of the Rim much like the US pushing west. I suspect at the time of Miranda most Rim worlds are being colonised from the Border planets.

My suspicion is that the Core worlds were initially busy building themselves up. When they started to look out at the 'Verse again they discovered that the Border worlds which had been less advanced neighbours and first generation colonies had "grabbed" a lot of terraformed planets for their own colonisation. Miranda and placed like the Mr Universe planet are the Core's new secondary colonies, bigger brighter and cleaner than the shack city worlds colonists from the Border worlds were building on the Rim.

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 9:48 AM

GORRAMSCOTT

I assumed that the Alliance created this core planet on the rim to test out the PAX. If anything went wrong then there wouldn't be anyone there to complain.

My food is problematic

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 11:14 AM

@Fletch2:
And where exactly would all the border worlds get the money and equipment for such a venture? IMO, they wouldn't have done this even if they could. They would've used the tech for themselves, because they needed it.

What you're saying is basically, the border worlds were screwed and bearly scraping by. So, they decided to split what they had and send people to a different planet(s) to colonize.

Doesn't make sense.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 11:35 AM

NOSADSEVEN

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:
Originally posted by nosadseven:

"Too much could very easily kill them in horrible ways..."

Umm, isn't that exactly what happened?

Accident. Not intention.

Point being, it's not an explanation for why the "Research and Rescue" crew were not (directly) affected.

My thoughts? The effects of the Pax appear to be permanent, so it wouldn't require a persistent presence in the atmosphere. The R&R folks would be able to safely see the results of the drug, without risking exposure to it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 1:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
[B]@Fletch2:
And where exactly would all the border worlds get the money and equipment for such a venture? IMO, they wouldn't have done this even if they could. They would've used the tech for themselves, because they needed it.

What you're saying is basically, the border worlds were screwed and bearly scraping by. So, they decided to split what they had and send people to a different planet(s) to colonize.

Doesn't make sense.

Read what I wrote and check out the layout of the 'Verse. The only Core world you ever see is Ariel. Those big city planets you see like Persephone and Beaumont are Border worlds, these are the kind of planets that formed the Independents. The little shanty town places like Whitefall are Rim worlds, these are the most recently colonised frontier planets.

We know that it takes a long time to terraform planets and we know that every planet in the 'Verse is terraformed. The speculation is that robot terraforming plants were sent ahead of the colony ships to prepare the way. The initial colonisation was in the Core worlds which is why they ARE the Core worlds and why they are so technologically advanced.

At that time the Border worlds were at the edge of colonizable space because only a few places were terraformed. Imagine that the Core was like Europe and the Border worlds the 13 original colonies. My guess is that the Core was too busy building industry and stuff to be too concerned with that the Border planets were doing. This meant that as their populations grew the Border planets started setting up colonies of their own. They were not that advanced themselves which is why we have shanty town western towns like Whitefall. It's exactly the same as the new Americans pushing west.

At some point the Alliance is formed in the Core and they start thinking about building their own colonies. When they do they try and build the same kind of place as they have in the Core -- "civilised" places like Miranda. It's also this time that the Alliance starts to claim sovereignty of the rest of the Verse. It's no coincidence that they start building places like Miranda just before the war --- the Core is staking it's claims on the verse.

So, the Rim worlds that are wild west style towns are the secondary colonies from the Border planets. Places like Miranda are Core secondary colonies. That's why the two sets of worlds look so different.

What we see even has real world parallels. At the same time as Americans were building wooden towns in the west, Germany was building little copies of Bavarian townships in its African colonies.

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 2:31 PM

@Fletch2:
"""
My guess is that the Core was too busy building industry and stuff to be too concerned with that the Border planets were doing. This meant that as their populations grew the Border planets started setting up colonies of their own.
"""

I'd hate to say this, but this is quite a large leap. I say this because here, on Earth, we haven't fully colonized the planet, and there are billions of use. To say that splitting our numbers between say, a few dozen planets, and after only a couple hundred years, is enough to justify making the move to colonize another planet is bloody ludricous.

Please note that there is a large difference between pushing west to cover more land, and pushing out to another planetary body. If they were going to continue colonization, they would have pushed west in the way the americans did. Namely, actually moving west... on the same planet.

"""
It's no coincidence that they start building places like Miranda just before the war
"""

Prove to me that this was before the war. Please note that you're going to have to explain the away all the inconsistencies between the series and the movie before you can do this ie the time-line has clearly been messed around with. That is assuming that the numbers that have been quoted above aren't just a mistake by Joss. And considering that he has stated in interviews before that he is about the story an not the tech details, I'm going to figure that it is a mistake.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 2:55 PM

So what you are saying is that no matter what I say you will choose not to believe it. So what's the point?

By your logic there would be no point to having small ships like Fireflys because of all the difficulty in getting into space. Europeans colonised the new world in ships designed primarily for local trade, the ship seen in "Bushwacked" is exactly that, a bulk freighter upgraded privately for colonisation. If you have cheap ships and habitable places within range then people will colonise. Sorry if that ruins any pet theories.

As to Miranda

Open your Visual Companion (you have that right? You ARE a fan?)
go to page 117

KAYLEE -- "Wait a tick... yeah Some years back, before the War. There was a call for workers to settle on Miranda...."

In the shot version it was Zoe that says "Right before the war."

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 5:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:

So what you are saying is that no matter what I say you will choose not to believe it. So what's the point?

By your logic there would be no point to having small ships like Fireflys because of all the difficulty in getting into space.

This is where I stopped reading. My logic says absolutionly nothing about such a thing, and to say that it does is entirely irrational.

If you feel like having an actual rational discussion let me know. And please note that it'll have to be based on things that aren't called into question, like this probable error in the time line.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 8:04 PM