trash- a lovely touch by Stubbs

Is now the time to discuss, again, which episodes, in this context, lie between Ariel and Objects in Space?

My 2p says: just War Stories.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 11:38 AM

what do you mean? i'm not sure i get your tone

Stubbs

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 12:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
Is now the time to discuss, again, which episodes, in this context, lie between Ariel and Objects in Space?

My 2p says: just War Stories.

Only in the Fox order which is clearly wrong. Going by production order would have War Stories followed by Heart of Gold and then Objects in Space. DVD order (the official and to my mind most satisfactory ordering of the shows) inserts Trash and The Message betwixt WS and HoG.

David

"A lot of people are asking me, you know, what exactly is Firefly? It's a tv show you morons!" - Joss Whedon

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 12:31 PM

EVILDINOSAUR

that's freakin awesome, I must look for that as soon as I get home lol

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 8:59 PM

Quote:
Going by production order would have War Stories followed by Heart of Gold and then Objects in Space.

Quote:
Shooting script:
Firefly - "Objects in Space"

Written & Directed by: Joss Whedon

Episode #: 1AGE11

SHOOTING SCRIPT: November 12, 2002

Quote:
Shooting script:
Firefly - "Heart of Gold"

Written by: Brett Matthews
Directed by: Tom Wright

Episode #: 1AGE12
Story #: E01807

SHOOTING SCRIPT: October 29, 2002
BLUE REVISIONS: October 30,2002
PINK REVISIONS: October 31,2002
YELLOW REVISIONS: December 16,2002

The revisions on the shooting scripts show that Heart of Gold follows Objects in Space.

Quote:
DVD order (the official and to my mind most satisfactory ordering of the shows) inserts Trash and The Message betwixt WS and HoG.

IMHO: this is a revisionist order, used to give a projection towards the comix and movie and also to end (sic) the TV series on Whedon's artistic high-note -- which I have no problem with, but is ex post facto in the context of the OP.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 10:50 PM

DUTCHBOY

I read that very same thing on some site a while ago. I love those touches!

MAL
I mean, I knew her clientele was... varied...

WASH
Yeah, but, I mean, you know... damn.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 5:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
Quote:
Going by production order would have War Stories followed by Heart of Gold and then Objects in Space.

Quote:
Shooting script:
Firefly - "Objects in Space"

Written & Directed by: Joss Whedon

Episode #: 1AGE11

SHOOTING SCRIPT: November 12, 2002
Quote:
Shooting script:
Firefly - "Heart of Gold"

Written by: Brett Matthews
Directed by: Tom Wright

Episode #: 1AGE12
Story #: E01807

SHOOTING SCRIPT: October 29, 2002
BLUE REVISIONS: October 30,2002
PINK REVISIONS: October 31,2002
YELLOW REVISIONS: December 16,2002

The revisions on the shooting scripts show that Heart of Gold follows Objects in Space.

Quote:
DVD order (the official and to my mind most satisfactory ordering of the shows) inserts Trash and The Message betwixt WS and HoG.

IMHO: this is a revisionist order, used to give a projection towards the comix and movie and also to end (sic) the TV series on Whedon's artistic high-note -- which I have no problem with, but is ex post facto in the context of the OP.

Except of course that Heart of Gold isn't 1AGE12 it's 1AGE10 - clearly prior to OiS in production order. Also the fact that Inara and Mal refer to her decision to leave the ship made in Heart of Gold is to me clinching evidence that OiS follows HoG. Now it is possible that at some time in the production process the episodes were in a different order - as produced - they clearly follow the timeline I've provided.

Now the question of Trash and The Message is a bit more open. There are areas of each episode that suggest that they should come after OiS (Jayne: Girl's a mind reading genious and she still can't figure out how to eat ice planet.) and of course they were produced later. However it kind of messes up Inara's story. Two whole episodes that don't mention Inara's decision to leave the ship made in HoG and confirmed in OiS.

David

"A lot of people are asking me, you know, what exactly is Firefly? It's a tv show you morons!" - Joss Whedon

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 6:15 AM

i think at the end of the day all that matters is what joss wanted to tell and show us. The firefly dvd boxset is heis version of the story, the one that hasnt been tampered with by the tw*ts at fox. Instead of trying to work out the episodes between Trash and Objects... we should focus on finding more little clues like this that link Jubal Early to the crew of serenity

Stubbs

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 6:53 AM

Quote:
Except of course that Heart of Gold isn't 1AGE12 it's 1AGE10

The source of the quote in my original is the Wiki
http://www.fireflywiki.org/112.html
The reference in that post is to the script revision dates.

EDIT(I've had problems accessing this site, sorry): Heart of Gold has been referred to elsewhere as a problematic script.

Quote:
Tim Minear in Cinefastique:
Then the last shot I did of all of them together - there’s a shot where the entire crew of Serenity is walking up to a brothel. That was actually shot on a soundstage and it’s everyone walking up to this brothel and it was the last time they were all together on a stage to shoot a moment in Firefly.

After this really depressing day of everyone crying and making beautiful speeches, I packed up my bag and went home that night and it was all finished. I turned on the TV and that was the night they were airing the pilot finally, so that was the great irony.

Which was 12/20/02.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 7:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
Quote:
Except of course that Heart of Gold isn't 1AGE12 it's 1AGE10
The source of the quote in my original is the Wiki
http://www.fireflywiki.org/112.html
The reference in that post is to the script revision dates.

You do know the scripts from the wiki aren't necesarily the latest scripts involved right? And on the DVD it clearly shows HoG's production number as 1AGE10 so when they were produced HoG came before OiS.

David

"A lot of people are asking me, you know, what exactly is Firefly? It's a tv show you morons!" - Joss Whedon

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 7:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Stubbs:
i think at the end of the day all that matters is what joss wanted to tell and show us. The firefly dvd boxset is heis version of the story, the one that hasnt been tampered with by the tw*ts at fox. Instead of trying to work out the episodes between Trash and Objects... we should focus on finding more little clues like this that link Jubal Early to the crew of serenity

Sure. Though the question of how Trash relates to OiS has a deep impact on what that flyby in Trash means. As presented the flyby suggests that Jubel is trailing Serenity waiting to pounce. If Trash runs after OiS (as it was initially produced) then that would suggest that Jubel has somehow survived being stranded in space and is back on Serenity's trail possibly looking for some revenge.

David

"A lot of people are asking me, you know, what exactly is Firefly? It's a tv show you morons!" - Joss Whedon

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 7:58 AM

thats actually an interesting theory. I live in england and never caught the series on tv. i just have the boxset of episodes in order. If Jubal survived that would be interesting. However, its his ship in Trash, and at the end of objects... his ship flies away while hes floating in the other direction. One thing puzzles me though. Whos flying his ship when it flies away from Serenity?

Stubbs

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 8:13 AM

Quote:
... that would suggest that Jubel has somehow survived

Absolutely -- and the reason for my first post

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 8:24 AM

SAB39

What I don't get is why they sent Early's ship away in the first place. A ship like that'd fetch a fair price, and I'm sure the crew knows some folks that'd buy it without askin' too many questions.

Even if not, I'm sure Kaylee'd want to scrounge some interesting engine parts off it before they got rid of it...

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 8:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Stubbs:
However, its his ship in Trash, and at the end of objects... his ship flies away while hes floating in the other direction. One thing puzzles me though. Whos flying his ship when it flies away from Serenity?

Nobody. I suspect that River set the autopilot to send the ship off in some random direction. She, "fiddled with the dials." As to Jubel surviving he could have had some way of recalling his ship. Consider the last line of Objects, "Well, here I am." That could have been a code message to his ship's autopilot meaning roughly, "Get back here and pick me up." Note that it is certainly possible this happened irrespective of the episode ordering but in the official order there is no proof that it did.

An alternate possibility is that the ship in Trash isn't Jubel's ship at all just a ship of the same class. But I doubt it - coincidences are rare in a show like Firefly.

I still stand by the DVD order as being the most official and dramatically satisfying ordering of the episodes. I've watched them both ways and the DVD order felt more right.

David

"A lot of people are asking me, you know, what exactly is Firefly? It's a tv show you morons!" - Joss Whedon

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 9:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by daveshayne:
An alternate possibility is that the ship in Trash isn't Jubel's ship at all just a ship of the same class but I doubt it - coincidences are rare in a show like Firefly.

Actually, I think this is a highly likely explanation.

Firefly was a rather high-budget show, but the money wasn't limitless. Costs would be cut wherever possible, as long as the impact on the product wasn't too high.

Now, let's assume that the post-production work on Trash took place after that of OiS (not unreasonable). Why would Zoic not have simply reused a fully-functional CG model (namely, that of Jubal's ship) in a quick flyby, rather than spending more time and money coming up with something entirely new?

On a different level, spacecraft in this time period would not be "one-off", custom designs. They would be models, similar to cars and trucks today. We know, for example, that Serenity herself is just one of many hundreds of similar Firefly transports -- they were in production long enough to go through at least one significant redesign. So it's no surprise that someone besides Jubal Early would own and operate a ship of the same design. I mean to say as, if you saw a white VW bug in a movie today you wouldn't assume it was supposed to be Herbie.

Yes, Joss did salt the episodes of Firefly with many deliberate clues and hints, and many details of the 'verse were included without anyone pointing to them or holding them under our noses ("Look! I'm pointing right at it! Blue Sun!")

On the other hand, I think it's possible to read too much into the details. Not every little 3-second glimpse of something has deep significance.

I vote for "CG design reuse" as the most likely explanation, rather than a lurking bounty hunter.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't disagree on any particular point.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 9:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by daveshayne:
I still stand by the DVD order as being the most official and dramatically satisfying ordering of the episodes. I've watched them both ways and the DVD order felt more right.

Of course, we know that Joss changed at least one scene in at least one episode so that the sequence worked better (check the deleted scenes on the FF box set). So it's not surprising that they flow well.

I wonder if that's the only change he made? We'd never know, as long as those changes were to the unaired episodes only. Maybe this would be a good question for the next Q&A that Joss attends.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't disagree on any particular point.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 9:44 AM

but isnt just more satisfying to believe that Joss put Jubals ship in to link the two episodes? We dont want to believe in coincedences. And since Jubal says 'i've been following you since Ariel' and Trash is situated between Ariel and OiS (in the dvd set anyway) isnt it just that little bit nicer to assume that Joss was having a wink at the audience. The model may have been a reused piece of cg that Joss put in to link the episodes in the dvd set yes, but not just for show surely? How many other ships do we see two models of apart from Jubals? Not counting the two Serenity shuttles of course.

Stubbs

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 11:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
Of course, we know that Joss changed at least one scene in at least one episode so that the sequence worked better (check the deleted scenes on the FF box set).

You're refering to the Objects In Space - Scene 6 deleted scene I take it. Where it says, "This scene was actually aired in the original broadcast but has been deleted from the episode's DVD release. All of the episodes on this DVD appear as Joss Whedon originally conceived them so this reference to Inara deciding to leave no longer makes sense."

No longer makes sense since she had already decided to leave in the unaired Heart of Gold that was intended to air before Objects in Space and which is presented in it's proper place on the DVD.

David

"A lot of people are asking me, you know, what exactly is Firefly? It's a tv show you morons!" - Joss Whedon

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 12:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by daveshayne:
Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
Of course, we know that Joss changed at least one scene in at least one episode so that the sequence worked better (check the deleted scenes on the FF box set).

You're refering to the Objects In Space - Scene 6 deleted scene I take it. Where it says, "This scene was actually aired in the original broadcast but has been deleted from the episode's DVD release. All of the episodes on this DVD appear as Joss Whedon originally conceived them so this reference to Inara deciding to leave no longer makes sense."

No longer makes sense since she had already decided to leave in the unaired Heart of Gold that was intended to air before Objects in Space and which is presented in it's proper place on the DVD.

David

That's what I was referring to, yes. What I'm wondering is whether that was the only change made on the DVD set. Any other changes would have to be to the unaired episodes, since undoubtedly someone would have noticed any changes in the ones that were broadcast. But Joss could have reedited the unaired eps to improve the flow and continuity of the DVDs' episode order.

It's probably pretty unlikely, though. The change to OiS probably went the other way -- it was changed for the broadcast because HoG wasn't shown first.

--- Sheesh, just looked out the window. It's snowing like there's no tomorrow! Where the heck did this come from?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't disagree on any particular point.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 12:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Stubbs:
but isnt just more satisfying to believe that Joss put Jubals ship in to link the two episodes? We dont want to believe in coincedences. And since Jubal says 'i've been following you since Ariel' and Trash is situated between Ariel and OiS (in the dvd set anyway) isnt it just that little bit nicer to assume that Joss was having a wink at the audience. The model may have been a reused piece of cg that Joss put in to link the episodes in the dvd set yes, but not just for show surely? How many other ships do we see two models of apart from Jubals? Not counting the two Serenity shuttles of course.

Well, of course, you're free to speculate along those lines if you find it rewarding. I was just suggesting that the whole episode order debate becomes moot if the ship in Trash wasn't Early's -- which it didn't necessarily have to be.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't disagree on any particular point.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 1:07 PM