FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Did Jayne help Dobson escape?

POSTED BY: INDIGOSTARBLASTER
UPDATED: Saturday, November 25, 2006 13:04
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Monday, October 16, 2006 7:32 AM

INDIGOSTARBLASTER


Hey Browncoats,

My husband and I were watching the pilot again the other night, and I still can't decide whether Jayne was lying to Mal when he said, "I had nothing to do with that." What do all y'all think?

BTW, I borrowed the Firefly and the Serenity Official Visual Companions from a friend on the weekend and I can't stop looking at 'em... our BDH's are so gorramn shiny on that glossy paper!

Indigo S.

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Tuesday, October 17, 2006 4:08 PM

TRAVELER


I feel Jayne was honest. He sees a good thing with Mal. He only sold out Simon and River because he saw them as outsiders. Mal pointed out his error on that one. A wrench to the head can sure educate you on the proper way to behave.
If Jayne had sold Mal out I think he would have left him stranded on Whitefall and helped Dobson take the Tams. Instead he did what Mal told him to do, because he knew Mal gets the job done, even if plan changes at times. Clint Eastwood would say "Improvise".


Traveler

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Tuesday, October 17, 2006 4:59 PM

ROCKYSOAP


I can see the dilemma there. I want to believe that Jayne didn't, because I adore Jayne. I just can't figure out how else Dobson would have gotten that razer. The whole "pointing a sniper rifle at Mal's head" thing also creates some doubts. :(

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Tuesday, October 17, 2006 5:34 PM

MUDDERSMILK


I totally agree with Rockysoap. Jayne played all the angles. If Dobson succeeded, he was in, having helped Dobson escape. If he failed, then deniability. This matter is set up so that Jayne the betrayer evolves into jayne the trustworthy latter in Season 2 or 3, etc. We already saw the progression in the series (although with regression in the BDM). So... yes, Jayne slipped Lawrence the razor. And mal knows it, too. He just can't be totally sure, so he lets jayne slide. He's watching Jayne from then on, though.

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Tuesday, October 17, 2006 5:48 PM

ATIGDNG




Yeah, I agree with muddersmilk on that. He is a selfish BDH lets face it, and he was going to shoot Mal I think if he didn't give the money back to patience, maybe?

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Tuesday, October 17, 2006 7:38 PM

SHINYLETSBEBADGUYS


Haha the sniper moment was one of my favorite ones in that episode. I think that it was just Jayne being Jayne

I dont think he was going to shoot him at all just entertaining the idea in his head. One of those 'all i gotta do is pull the trigger' moments. Sort of like how they say when people are on top of something REALLY high they wonder what it would be like to jump off.

Like other people posted, at this point in the series Jayne is driven by what is the most profitable. But Jayne knows that even though taking over Serenity would be shiny, it just aint worth it.

"None of it means a damn thing"

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Tuesday, October 17, 2006 8:41 PM

REDLAVA


I am probably over thinking this but here goes.

Here are the two ways I think it could have went down. Most of looks that Jayne gives (ie. when Dobson makes his offer, the sniper rifle, ect.) were for dramatic effect. To keep you guessing on what was going to happen. So I will throw those out.

Scenario 1: Jayne gives Dobson the razor and pretends to take the deal. Jayne knows that Dobson will get free and go after Simon and River. He also knows Dobson has no place to go so he will have to stay onboard the ship until his reinforcements arrive. Jayne knows how Mal thinks and how he will react if he sees Dobson has gotten loose. By shooting him. Jayne pretty much wants Dobson dead from the start so he and the rest of the crew will be free and clear. Jayne lies to the captain obviously so he won't get into trouble for putting everybodys life in danger. Fast forward to Ariel as an example of the possible outcome with Mal finding out.

Scenario 2: Jayne doesn't take the deal and Dobson is more resourceful than we think he is by either already having the razor on his person or finding it in the berth where he was being held. Jayne is completely truthful to Mal.

Personally I don't believe that Jayne is that methodical when it comes to planning. Too many variables hinge on the outcome he is looking for. So while the first scenario makes some sense, I don't think it is the right one. The second scenario is where I put my money because I think that Jayne trusts Mall more than he lets on or else he would have killed him and taken over way before. Remember the conversation that Mal and Jayne have at the end. Mal askes Jayne why he didn't turn on him. Jayne replies that the money wasn't good enough. Dobson had to have offered him a great deal of money and Jayne as we all know is increadibly greedy.

Thus concludes the longest post I think I have ever written.


Everybody always has the advantage over us, but that's what makes us special...and Browncoats.

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Tuesday, October 17, 2006 9:08 PM

AYRAD


I don't think Jayne helped Dobson. The hun dan shot Kaylee and Jayne wanted to end him painfully. Had Sheperd Book not being in his way, Dobson would be 6 feet under right now. And about the money offer I someway have this feeling that Jayne knew that Dobson was lying about making him rich enough to be captain of his own ship...you know one of these things you say when you're about to be sliced up (even if by the sexiest man alive ;-) )Jayne looked at Dobson like he was a sort of pathetic idiot...




www.cthomashowell.net
www.myspace.com/ayrad
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2291467/

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Tuesday, October 17, 2006 10:11 PM

CALHOUN


Look at Jaynes reaction when Mal calls him over to help throw Dobsons body out the ship. There was no hint of guilt or fear, it was pure pleasure. If Jayne had helped Dobson escape he would have had a "tell" when confronted with Dobsons body.

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Wednesday, October 18, 2006 4:52 AM

FREEBAGEL


Quote:

Originally posted by Redlava:
I am probably over thinking this but here goes.

Here are the two ways I think it could have went down. Most of looks that Jayne gives (ie. when Dobson makes his offer, the sniper rifle, ect.) were for dramatic effect. To keep you guessing on what was going to happen. So I will throw those out.



I think you've nailed it here. All of the things that looked like Jayne might possibly be set to side with Dobson were just for dramatic effect. I never thought twice about whether or not Jayne had a hand in Dobson's escape, he was telling the truth in this matter.

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Wednesday, October 18, 2006 8:38 AM

INDIGOSTARBLASTER


Ooh. Somehow I totally forgot that Jayne had been ready to kill Dobson for shooting Kaylee. And I agree, he didn't seem to feel bad about Dobson's demise at all.

Ok, I can see that Jayne would have no real interest in helping Dobson in any way. So the way he responded to Mal's implicit accusation (that made me think Jayne might be lying) -- that was just 'cause he was concealing the fact that Dobson had made him an offer and that he had, for at least a fleeting moment, considered taking it.

Thanks, all. There's nuthin' like fanwanking with my e-peeps :)

Indigo S.

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Saturday, October 21, 2006 11:00 PM

USMCHELLRAISER


I don't understand the "Sniper Rifle" comments, but if they are about how Jayne was looking at Mal through his scope, well that is just what you do when your long-distance sighting device is attached to a weapon. Even as much as Marines try to avoid pointing weapons at each other ("flagging"), we use our scopes (called ACOGs or RCOs) to look at anything far away, including our own people. You would have to let go of your weapon to use binos, and if your setting up a shot with friendlies near enemies, you sight off of your friendlies to use them as a TRP (target reference point) and gain a frame of reference as to which bad guys to shoot (ie- closest to your guys, best line of sight on your troops. etc...)

"...let's not ruin an otherwise pleasant day with unnecessary bloodshed..."

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Sunday, October 22, 2006 5:28 AM

DONCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by USMCHellraiser:
I don't understand the "Sniper Rifle" comments, but if they are about how Jayne was looking at Mal through his scope, well that is just what you do when your long-distance sighting device is attached to a weapon. Even as much as Marines try to avoid pointing weapons at each other ("flagging"), we use our scopes (called ACOGs or RCOs) to look at anything far away, including our own people. You would have to let go of your weapon to use binos, and if your setting up a shot with friendlies near enemies, you sight off of your friendlies to use them as a TRP (target reference point) and gain a frame of reference as to which bad guys to shoot (ie- closest to your guys, best line of sight on your troops. etc...)

While I have no doubt that's all true, I question whether the typical TV viewer (or scriptwriter) would be aware of that. To most of us, that scene says, "Hey, Jayne has Mal in his sights! Maybe he's going to shoot him!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

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Monday, October 23, 2006 9:30 AM

CAVALIER


In films, that shot is often used to show a man genuinely uncertain who to shoot. Common sense should give people USMCHellraiser's alternative explanation, afterwards.

FWIW I think Jayne was telling the truth when he said he refused Dobsons offer. He does not seem to be a very confident liar, later in the series.

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Tuesday, October 24, 2006 7:43 PM

USMCHELLRAISER


Quote:

Originally posted by DonCoat:
Quote:

Originally posted by USMCHellraiser:
I don't understand the "Sniper Rifle" comments, but if they are about how Jayne was looking at Mal through his scope, well that is just what you do when your long-distance sighting device is attached to a weapon. Even as much as Marines try to avoid pointing weapons at each other ("flagging"), we use our scopes (called ACOGs or RCOs) to look at anything far away, including our own people. You would have to let go of your weapon to use binos, and if your setting up a shot with friendlies near enemies, you sight off of your friendlies to use them as a TRP (target reference point) and gain a frame of reference as to which bad guys to shoot (ie- closest to your guys, best line of sight on your troops. etc...)

While I have no doubt that's all true, I question whether the typical TV viewer (or scriptwriter) would be aware of that. To most of us, that scene says, "Hey, Jayne has Mal in his sights! Maybe he's going to shoot him!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!





I believe it.

Y'know the funny thing? I don't even own a
personal firearm...



"...let's not ruin an otherwise pleasant day with unnecessary bloodshed..."

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Tuesday, November 7, 2006 10:56 PM

NEVERMORE


I dont think Jayne helped Dobs.

The sniper thing is incredibly obvious, he did it because Joss wanted us to think that he had accepted the deal.

I have no formal or informal combat training, I havent read any military or covert ops novels. I have no reference for knowing anything about combat or sniping, and I figured he was just hovering over Mal to both get a reference and see what was happening.

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Monday, November 20, 2006 6:38 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by ShinyLetsBeBadGuys:

Haha the sniper moment was one of my favorite ones in that episode. I think that it was just Jayne being Jayne

I dont think he was going to shoot him at all just entertaining the idea in his head. One of those 'all i gotta do is pull the trigger' moments. Sort of like how they say when people are on top of something REALLY high they wonder what it would be like to jump off.




Agreed. The sniper thingy was just Jayne's funny way of showing to himself that he COULD take Mal, if he wanted to. But he had no real aspirations in that area. Jayne ain't no leader; and he knows it. He's a merc, and overall quite content with having Mal be his boss. Long as he gets paid.



--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, November 21, 2006 6:52 AM

CLEMENTINE


Did Jayne help Dobson escape?

No. What Jayne wants more than anything else is a place to belong. He's been a hired dog since he got bigger than all the other kids (and that was early). He knows he's not the sharpest pencil and now he's found a brighter guy who is a straight arrow. He's Mal's dog now.

Jayne says, "Would helping you mean turning on the Captain? "
Dobson: "Yes."
and that's as far as the conversation went.

Even in Ariel, Jayne turns the Tams in because it was off ship and he rationalized it as not being turning on the Captain. Mal points out the error of that line of thinking.

Jayne's found a home and he won't jeopardize it.
__________________________________________

Holding.

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Saturday, November 25, 2006 1:04 PM

THEREALHEROOFCANTON


There's nothing to indicate that Jayne is lying when he tells Mal that he had nothing to do with Hobson escaping

In fact Jayne almost seems offended when Mal suggests that Jayne didn't securely restrain Hobson. I think the scene was just designed to show that both characters can be honest with each other about Jayne's negotiable loyalties (and so that we get more of an idea about how Jayne thinks, setting up the later episode where he tries to sell River and Simon to the feds)

The whole thing was just a way for making us think Jayne had betrayed Mal, when in fact he's just showing his quasi-sadistic side by sighting at Mal with the sniper rifle.

The moment he shot the guy in the hat instead of Mal, all doubt is gone, I reckon.

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