FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Heart of Gold

POSTED BY: WYTCHCROFT
UPDATED: Thursday, December 6, 2007 15:10
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Sunday, November 11, 2007 11:33 AM

WYTCHCROFT


(just watching HOG while packing boxes...)

this episode has everything - a brilliant opening - a return to classic western themes... A plot that actively involves Inara (who is a fave character of mine) and gives her a lot of extra character dimension - then there's nandi too.

it has the puppet theatre - with a symbolic show and a genuine asian (rare in the verse ironically) for 3.5 seconds.


it's tense - very tense at times...
but it's damn funny too!

so...

why dont i like it more???

one thing is - why bring the WHOLE crew to the planet - why doesn't Simon object to River coming along to such a dangerous place???

what do other people think???

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Sunday, November 11, 2007 1:09 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.


It also showed some character development for Zoe. When she argued with Wash over having a child.

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Sunday, November 11, 2007 2:45 PM

RALLEM


Was the pistol by which was owned by the bad guy destroyed? I am having a hard time remembering.


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Sunday, November 11, 2007 3:41 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.


I know it ran out of power. Not sure if it was destroyed in the fight on the speeder. Good reason to go back and watch it.

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Sunday, November 11, 2007 3:54 PM

RALLEM


Thank you, it ran out of power, so I wonder why the crew of Serenity didn't recover it for a prize.


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Sunday, November 11, 2007 4:30 PM

MAL4PREZ


I'll tell you why Wythcroft...

Like you, every time I watch HoG I think: the Inara insight is lovely, the dialogue is priceless, the Mal sex scene... yay! (OK, maybe you don't think that exactly ) So this ep is quite good. Why don't I watch it more?

And then I reach the end and think... Oh.

The shootout is just lame. The laser gun - the prop and the special effects of it firing - are lamer. The battery running out is just stupid, (maybe if it tied into some joke or earlier comment, ok. But just happening out nowhere? ) The chase scene with Mal on the horse and the bad guy on the skimmer (or whatever it you call it) is about 10 levels below the visual quality and believability of every other minute of Firefly.

Of course, I'll watch this above most anything on TV - I'm just rating this ep in relation to the rest of the series. IMHO, HoG is the only episode that becomes cardboard TV sci-fi, if only for a few minutes.

The gods of Firefly will punish me for saying all this, I'm sure! *hides*

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Sunday, November 11, 2007 5:04 PM

NBZ


I sometimes don't like Heart of Gold because IMO it got Firefly cancelled.

That is the impression I got when reading the Visual Companion. the timing seems to fit in my head too.

Quote:

Fox: Make more episodes, but for goodness sakes have less western and more scifi!
Joss & co: We'll make a western Shootout! But since the network told us NOT to do this thing, We'll make the house out of foil paper, give the baddie a laser gun. hehe, they'll never find out.
Fox: hey, wait a minute...
Joss & Co: Ok now we are filming The Message. It has this big space station, a space chase, big explosions and people die. You'll love it!
Fox: yeah, but your still fired.



It also lacks the finesse and twists of the others. It is a little straight forward. (The writer was just arriving from the comics scene, so that is expected.)

I think the Inara leaving scene was added late on to give the episode some weight. It was a gut punch. I for one never expected it, so it was a good addition.

This episode also did have a hint of out of characterness. The Mal and Inara connection seemed to suddenly have jumped up a few notches from where it was before. Some of their early dialogue was so practiced, it was almost a parody. Something which is never acceptable in any show. Unless it is a parody show, ofcourse.

It is a good episode and I love some bits of it, but IMO as a whole it is the worst of the Firefly lot.

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Sunday, November 11, 2007 5:43 PM

RALLEM


Heart of Gold was one of my two least favorite episodes of Firefly. Objects in Space was the other.


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Sunday, November 11, 2007 6:14 PM

RAHLMACLAREN

"Damn yokels, can't even tell a transport ship ain't got no guns on it." - Jayne Cobb


Including the forementioned badness, I don't like HoG because Mal consciencely(sp?) betrays Inara. When Nandi said "I ain't her.", Mal knew exactly who she was taking about. We know Mal is stubbornly loyal to Inara, business arrangement or no. Heck, he was in a duel with frickin' swords, where he almost died (ok, that happens a lot), just so she wouldn't leave.

And from an architectual stand point, the house triggers my gag reflex.

--------------------------------------------------
Find here the Serenity you seek.

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Monday, November 12, 2007 10:51 AM

NBZ


Quote:

Originally posted by RahlMaclaren:
ncluding the forementioned badness, I don't like HoG because Mal consciously [corrected] betrays Inara. When Nandi said "I ain't her.", Mal knew exactly who she was taking about.



This is the one place I have some issues with the fans. Of course he knew, but Mal did not "betray" Inara in any sense, shape or form. There was no relationship to betray. There was none that was in the process of creation either. There was simply nothing to betray.

What did Inara expect? Sooner or later Mal would move on, or at least try to. Can't expect him to be committed to a non-existent relationship while waiting for Inara to see the light. They are not teens.

Even if there was a hint of a relationship, it would hardly have been "exclusive", what with Inara being a working woman. or would she stop working once she found out that Mal was her one true everlasting and forever love? Too romanticised.

(sorry if that seems a little heavy, but I got into the flow...)

Quote:

We know Mal is stubbornly loyal to Inara, business arrangement or no. Heck, he was in a duel with frickin' swords, where he almost died (ok, that happens a lot), just so she wouldn't leave.


He was willing to have a fight, throw a few punches. The swords came in unexpectedly and he was not one to back down. He really did expect to win.

Quote:

And from an architectual stand point, the house triggers my gag reflex.



heh, pretty much agree.

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Monday, November 12, 2007 11:00 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST


When I re-watched it with my folks, to have them follow it. My dad commented that he liked this episode the least because it felt like an A-Team episode...

I kinda know what he meant too.



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Monday, November 12, 2007 11:04 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by RahlMaclaren:
Including the forementioned badness, I don't like HoG because Mal consciencely(sp?) betrays Inara. When Nandi said "I ain't her.", Mal knew exactly who she was taking about. We know Mal is stubbornly loyal to Inara, business arrangement or no. Heck, he was in a duel with frickin' swords, where he almost died (ok, that happens a lot), just so she wouldn't leave.

And from an architectual stand point, the house triggers my gag reflex.

--------------------------------------------------
Find here the Serenity you seek.




If it helps, try to view the comment in the light that Mal does not know that Inara has feelings for him.

He only knows that he has them for Inara and can't figure her out, ever, and Nandi has been her friend since way back and even SHE doesn't know what makes her tick. How will he ever get closer? No way, ever.

And there is Nandi, knowing what it feels like to love Inara and be kept at arms length forever, talking of very little BUT Inara, making him both more miserable and giving him an option of distraction and commiseration - and at that last moment, when she says "I ain't her"... Know what Mal says? Not "I now, you're Nandi." Not "I wasn't thinking about Inara." Not "Why do you think you have to say this now?"

He says "No one in this room but you and me.", which is both the only true thing he could say and STILL a lie, because Inara is absolutely in that room swirling over their heads and in his. Nandi is a stand-in and the beautiful thing she does for Mal is that she knows it and still lets it happen.

Which makes things triply tragic for Inara because her bit of consolation is that Mal was a comfort to her dear friend, when really, she let him use her. Have that hanging over your head, Mal. *pets*


I love "Heart of Gold" because it is not about jealousy and betrayal and pettiness. It's about love and fear and tragedy.




And I HATE most everything about the episode's plot! Dude! Could Rance Burgess have been more of a cardboard villain?? Hardly! Ridiculously substandard for Firefly.

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Monday, November 12, 2007 11:09 AM

MYCREW


NBZ I couldnt disagree with you more. You said that "Mal did not "betray" Inara in any sense, shape or form. There was no relationship to betray. There was none that was in the process of creation either. There was simply nothing to betray. What did Inara expect? Sooner or later Mal would move on, or at least try to. Can't expect him to be committed to a non-existent relationship while waiting for Inara to see the light. They are not teens."

There was a relationship to betray. Yes, it may have been unspoken and they didnt use a "term" to define it but it was there. They both love each other and he knew it would hurt her. I also dont think that Mal is waiting for Inara to "see the light". Mal is just as guilty at being stubborn and not showing his feelings. I think that they are both waiting for the other to make the first move.



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Monday, November 12, 2007 11:21 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by nbz:
Quote:

Originally posted by RahlMaclaren:
ncluding the forementioned badness, I don't like HoG because Mal consciously [corrected] betrays Inara. When Nandi said "I ain't her.", Mal knew exactly who she was taking about.

This is the one place I have some issues with the fans. Of course he knew, but Mal did not "betray" Inara in any sense, shape or form. There was no relationship to betray. There was none that was in the process of creation either. There was simply nothing to betray.

I gotta go with nbz on this. Calling Mal's hookup with Nandi a betrayal is missing the complexity of the situation, and of these characters. They aren't destined for True Love, as much as we'd all like to see it. They're complicated, imperfect people trying to get by. The fact that Mal's been loyal and defensive of Inara in the past doesn't make them wedded. He's defensive of his whole crew.

I think that if Mal does betray anything in HoG, it's himself. He's a man living in denial of himself, hiding away on a little spaceship and doing his best to stay out of life in general. In fact, it may be that he's subconsciously trying to avoid his feelings for Inara. When Nandi says: I ain't her, Mal probably just dismisses that, thinking: yeah, whatever, what's she got to do with any of this?

Keep in mind, Mal tries to come clean with Inara at the end of the episode. Why didn't he do it at the beginning? Because he needed the hook-up with and loss of Nandi to give him a kick in the butt. As he says, it makes him take a longer look at what's valuable to him. Light bulb goes on.

I say, for all this information, I do love the episode. If it weren't for the shoot out... and the ugly building LOL! ...

Edit to add: Mycrew, you really think they both loved each other and both knew it? Really? I feel like it's central to the whole series that they don't know.

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Monday, November 12, 2007 2:21 PM

LAWMAN


What a great thread. I do agree with almost everything that's written here. and I do find it interesting that this episode actually has an Asian in it, reminding me of the beginning.
I think the main reason why I personally don't see it more than once a month, is because the ending never lives up to the everything that's happening in the episode. When I saw this episode, I had already seen all the other episodes, and maybe I was somehow thinking this was going to be the best damn ending ever. The different sequences leading up to Mal's sex scene without Inara (I really thought they'd hook up), and Jayne being so Jaynesque... Maybe I was expecting so much in the end, that I was disappointed. its hard to be disappointed when Mal gets the girl.

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Monday, November 12, 2007 2:52 PM

RALLEM


If Mal betrayed Inara in this episode, then in Serenity when he walked into a trap to rescue her, would that sort of be like an atonement?


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Monday, November 12, 2007 4:48 PM

NBZ


Quote:

Originally posted by mycrew:
NBZ I couldnt disagree with you more...



The bane of my life. Why can't everyone always agree with me? I will make a good world dictator!

Quote:

There was a relationship to betray. Yes, it may have been unspoken and they didnt use a "term" to define it but it was there. They both love each other and he knew it would hurt her. I also dont think that Mal is waiting for Inara to "see the light". Mal is just as guilty at being stubborn and not showing his feelings. I think that they are both waiting for the other to make the first move.


Perfect place for a quote:

Quote:


INARA: I'm not sleeping with you, Mal.

MAL: Uh, no, I think I would have noticed if you were. My keenly trained... senses would have...

INARA: You're not my lover. Neither are you my other, My House Mistress or anyone who has the slightest say in how I conduct my affairs.

MAL: Well enough. So?

INARA: So let me conduct my affairs!



Apart from being hilarious, it does have a point or two. One of their strictly business relationship, the second a hint at Inara's job (I will also say that I don't think her job is as much of an issue to Mal as is made out to others...). The job she has been doing for years before travelling on Serenity, and for atleast a year on the ship too, is that a betrayal to Mal?

They are not beholden to each other, nor do they have the illusion that they are. Inara crying was (to me) a symbol that it meant something to her when Mal decided to look elsewhere (and a moving scene - so totally unexpected to see the porcelain mask drop). It finally meant something.

The only other time where they could have connected was at the end of Our Mrs Reynolds, but there Mal read it wrong. Unlike in the Pilot - Serenity - where he sort of faked affection to get her to agree with his plans to abandon ship.

And now a point to the opposite. Notice how Mal is totally at ease walking in on Inara? where did that comfort come from? maybe something happened and then unhappened before the series started? cliched, but IMO a distinct possibility.

@Mal4Prez: +1.

@Rallem: Did he? go in to rescue her? or to see what was happening? This intrigues me. I would say both, but cannot be certain of the former.

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Monday, November 12, 2007 5:41 PM

MAL4PREZ


Excellent dialogue quote nbz! That does get the point across. And I agree about Inara's job - I think that's the convenient thing Mal's grabbed hold of to keep her at a distance. I don't think it's the heart of the matter.

Quote:

Originally posted by nbz:
Unlike in the Pilot - Serenity - where he sort of faked affection to get her to agree with his plans to abandon ship.

Hunh. Now see, I don't take that as fake at all. Not even a little! Reavers on the horizon - kinda makes one be truthful. I'm not saying it was a declaration of unending love or anything, but just a sign that underneath the butting of heads there's something a bit warm and fuzzy between these two.

Quote:

And now a point to the opposite. Notice how Mal is totally at ease walking in on Inara? where did that comfort come from? maybe something happened and then unhappened before the series started? cliched, but IMO a distinct possibility.
I take it the opposite way. If they'd hooked up at any time, there'd be a whole lotta discomfort. Big elephant in the room. The fact that Mal is so comfortable and unself-conscious tells me that sure as hell nothing ever happened.

I think it comes from the fact that Inara laid down the law right off, and Mal set up his own defenses, so in any everyday non-Reaver threatened situation they manage to look at each other in a completely non-sexual way. Walking into her shuttle is like walking into a sister's room for Mal. There's just nothing there.

OK, you and I know that there's sure as hell something there, but these two characters live in constant conflict with themselves and are very good at denial. They've got their mutual attraction sorted out and locked away where they won't have to look at it. Not unless Reavers attack, or Inara thinks Mal's dead or about to get skewered, or Mal gets rattled by the death of his one night stand.

Um. What was this thread supposed to be about again?

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Monday, November 12, 2007 8:29 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


The sexxing parts with Mal made me think of stereotypical Star Trek format.

I din't think River coming was a problem - Simon has been moderating her drugs and she's been improving.

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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 6:26 AM

ASARIAN


So, did Mal betray Inara? There's all these dualities going on: Inara professes to have just a business relationship with Mal, but is found weeping nonetheless when he sleeps with Nandi; Mal tells Nandi, "Any friend of Inara's is a strictly businesslike relationship of mine," but only says it outloud in the first place because Inara wounded him in that whole "But you will get paid." speech; Nandi accepts the "Only people in this room is you and me." reply, full-well knowing Inara's still in the room, but the day after goes to, "You didn't give me the whole truth, Mal," after all; and Mal tries to pull off an innocent "'bout what?" routine, but his face shows him feeling guilt all the same.

Inara and Mal were so in denial about their true feelings (or in denial about their denial, however you wanna put it). And I wish they hadn't been. You know, peeps toss the phrase "Getting in touch with your feelings" around as if doing so is as easy as lyin'. It ain't. What was that saying again? "It's very hard to say the exact truth about your own feelings -- much harder than to say something fine about them which is not the exact truth." Or some such.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 7:50 AM

JONGSSTRAW


I like Heart of Gold. It's a different kind of Firefly episode than the others. We learn more about Inara and Mal here than in any other episode. I like Mal's conversation & body language when he makes the move on Nandi...I like when he says he likes women folk when she asks him if he's sly,& I like it when he says it takes more than a few drinks to render his judgement blurry. There is a real connection between Mal & Nandi. He really needs to be with her too.....hey man, it's lonely out there in space. If Inara can separate sex from love, why can't Mal too?

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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 8:31 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
There is a real connection between Mal & Nandi.

I agree. Definitely they hit it off. It's a shame she didn't live, cause there could have been all kinds of entertaining complications. But I guess an onboard Companion and a rogue wife is enough for poor Mal to deal with.

Quote:

If Inara can separate sex from love, why can't Mal too?
Indeed! I think people are way too hard on Mal about this.

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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 12:15 PM

LAWMAN


Has anyone noticed just how strange the entire actions of Mal are? Seriously, he is a man after all. He certainly was attracted to the very hot Mrs. Reynolds. I'm still hoping Mal and she hook up in the second movie. However, he's so goody goody two shoes about it. Even in Heart of Gold, he has to basically drink himself into sleeping with Nandi. For a man who has a few years on him, he seems to almost avoid physical intimacy with fairer sex. Even Inara is almost school girlish in her weeping scene after she finds out about the night before. For people who are very open about sexuality and with legalized prostitution, Mal and Inara have a perhaps way too romanticized notions of what love is. I really appreciate Jayne in that sense. What you see is what you get.

That's why i never kiss 'em on the mouth.

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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 12:25 PM

NBZ


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
Excellent dialogue quote nbz! That does get the point across. And I agree about Inara's job - I think that's the convenient thing Mal's grabbed hold of to keep her at a distance. I don't think it's the heart of the matter.



I always have seen control and authority as their main points of contention - issues that were NOT cleared up in the BDM.

Quote:

Hunh. Now see, I don't take that as fake at all. Not even a little! Reavers on the horizon - kinda makes one be truthful. I'm not saying it was a declaration of unending love or anything, but just a sign that underneath the butting of heads there's something a bit warm and fuzzy between these two.


That is entirely plausible. But I always tend to remember the scene from Bushwacked. Mal has a manipulative side that is rarely shown. Time for a flashback.

Quote:

MAL: ...I won't have these people lookin' over my shoulder once we're gone. Now I ain't sayin' there is any peace to be had. But on the off chance there is -- then those folks deserve a little of it.

JAYNE: Fong luh, All of you.

He storms off. Simon follows. Book takes a beat, might say something, decides against it then goes. Kaylee's beaming at her Captain. Inara now moves to Mal.

INARA: And just when I think I've got you figured out.

She holds the look. Might kiss him. Doesn't. Instead she moves off. He watches her go.

KAYLEE: That was real pretty, Captain. What you said.

WASH: Didn't think you were one for rituals and such.

MAL: I'm not. But I figure it'll keep the others busy for awhile. No reason to concern them with what's to be done.



Now, tell me you didn't fall for that speech the first time around? (and if you didn't, more the fool me.)

In the pilot, the holding her shoulder, the slight rub, the look - very practised and smooth. To get the right reaction. Almost companiony I could say. He had no time to argue and used what he thought would get through her defenses. (now that raises all sorts of interesting issues and contentions).

Maybe I am reading it all wrong (because this I am not one way or the other about), but I do see him manipulating her there. is there warmth? yes. but it is calculated. Show the right emotion to get the right reaction.

Quote:

I think it comes from the fact that Inara laid down the law right off, and Mal set up his own defenses, so in any everyday non-Reaver threatened situation they manage to look at each other in a completely non-sexual way.


I see where you are coming from. I would like to add that he deliberately does it to shatter her porcelain. Put her on the wrong foot to get a real reaction and not something she has practised for hours.

Quote:

Um. What was this thread supposed to be about again?


heh, that is something I will never be able to do. Too scatter minded to stick to a topic.

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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 12:34 PM

RALLEM


Quote:

Originally posted by Lawman:
Has anyone noticed just how strange the entire actions of Mal are? Seriously, he is a man after all. He certainly was attracted to the very hot Mrs. Reynolds. I'm still hoping Mal and she hook up in the second movie. However, he's so goody goody two shoes about it. Even in Heart of Gold, he has to basically drink himself into sleeping with Nandi. For a man who has a few years on him, he seems to almost avoid physical intimacy with fairer sex. Even Inara is almost school girlish in her weeping scene after she finds out about the night before. For people who are very open about sexuality and with legalized prostitution, Mal and Inara have a perhaps way too romanticized notions of what love is. I really appreciate Jayne in that sense. What you see is what you get.

That's why i never kiss 'em on the mouth.



Captain Malcolm Reynolds is a man who is in love with Inara, but as it has been stated several times in the series he has intimacy issues, so he has a difficult time talking with women and telling them how he feels. With Mrs. Reynolds, or Saffron he did not have intercourse with her or partake in any other marital activities because he felt that they were not wed and did not want to give her any ambiguous messages as to their relationship, and he did not want to take advantage of her submissive nature because that very nature grated on his nerves. With all that said I am sure he would have had sex with Saffron when she crawled naked from his bed if it weren’t for the fact that she drugged him and tried to kill the crew. As a man with intimacy issue myself, I find Mal’s predicament very believable, but I will admit that nobody would ever confuse me for a Hollywood actor.


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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 12:59 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by nbz:
Now, tell me you didn't fall for that speech the first time around?

I fall for it every time I watch the episode LOL!

Interesting argument, but I don't buy it. Certainly Mal has it in him to manipulate folks. But generally he does it for a reason - ie in Bushwacked, he's getting people out of the way and keeping them from freaking out about the possible ka-boom. In the scene with Inara, there's no need for him to lie to her. I think it'd take less time to play tough captain and order her to go. (Scowl and say "Git!" ) But the moment is actually drawn out but what he does. I think he doesn't want his last words to her to be harsh.

(By the way, I'm thinking I should watch the commentary again, because I recall Joss being particular about how the shoulder push should go. I think he wanted it to express softness, and be gentle. I didn't get the impression of it being fake, but of imparting real emotion. Could be remembering wrong...)

OK, to take a writer's view: It's the pilot episode, and Joss has a lot of info to impart on a lot of characters and not long to do it. He's already showed us that Mal is tricksey (and every time Mal is tricksey, Joss lets us know in no uncertain terms.) I think that this tiny little moment is there to tell us that Mal does indeed feel something for Inara, and that's all.

Last point: I don't think it would fit the series if Mal was so easily able to manipulate Inara. He shows on numerous occasions that he's clueless about her. Oi yeah, so if he was playing her here, that would change quite a few things for me. Hence my lengthy argument about something so silly LOL!

Quote:

I see where you are coming from. I would like to add that he deliberately does it to shatter her porcelain. Put her on the wrong foot to get a real reaction and not something she has practised for hours.
Totally! He probably also likes to remind her, and himself, that it's HIS ship LOL! You're so right, there's a bit of a power struggle going on between these two.

Lawman - I don't know what it is that's got Mal so afraid of entanglement. I take it as a product of the war stuff, that he's too messed up to trust.

As for romanticizing, that's something I love about Joss. He gives me my romance and fluff without making me feel dirty about it, cause there's no Fabio anyway near it, and plenty of meatier stuff to make me feel highbrow about my taste in sci-fi.

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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:29 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.


Quote:

Originally posted by rallem:
.....it ran out of power, so I wonder why the crew of Serenity didn't recover it for a prize.



Who's to say they didn't. There were no more eps after this one. Maybe it would of come up later how Jayne went looking for the laser and got all worked up when he returned to the ship to find Wash playing with it like it was a cap gun.

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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:44 PM

RALLEM


I would think that if the laser were retrieved it probably would have been picked up just before he took Rance Burgess back to the house, and it probably would have been sold for a profit, because who needs an illegal laser pistol when you are trying to avoid the Alliance?


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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:24 PM

TRAVELER


Kaylee asked Inara about relationships in "Ariel".
Inara replied the rules are complicated.
This makes me wonder if there is some reason Inara is unable to form a relationship with Mal because of some Companion bylaw. This would put her in a bind. She loves him, but must adher to the rules of her order.

I also got the impression she was leaving the Companion life style behind at the end of the BDM.

So when she was crying in "Heart of Gold" it may have been the inability to start a relationship with Mal and not so much that he betrayed her. It must be a struggle to choose a life you have made a great commitment to and starting a relation that would ruin that life and may go no where.

I suspect that having a business relationship with Mal, renting the shuttle and working out of his ship, may exclude him from being a life partner. Business does not mix with pleasure.


http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:37 PM

LAWMAN


ya see, that's why i love this series. its so freaking complicated on so many facets of relationships just like in everyday life. and saffron is still oh so hot. and i'm sure i'm not the only person who cheered when mal got a kiss from inara.

that's why i never kiss em on the mouth

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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:44 PM

NBZ


They already have laser. One of the first. The Lassiter. Who needs two?

(yeah, they probably do retrieve it for salvage/sale - they are supposed to be expensive in the 'verse. Probably in cost price and also in maintenance/usage. There is also the same issue with Jubal's ship in OiS. Why did they waste good salvage material?)

Quote:

MAL4PREZ WROTE:
OK, to take a writer's view: It's the pilot episode, and Joss has a lot of info to impart on a lot of characters and not long to do it. He's already showed us that Mal is tricksey (and every time Mal is tricksey, Joss lets us know in no uncertain terms.) I think that this tiny little moment is there to tell us that Mal does indeed feel something for Inara, and that's all.



On the other hand - it is the pilot and he is threading many storylines - some which had to be scrapped.

As an example, one thing I noticed in the shooting script is that in Simon's speech about River, he mentions that he paid the underground to get him to Boros. Serenity goes from Persephone to Boros. Mal has no idea that he is smuggling something. Who made the deal? (I think you prefer the Book angle. I prefer the Inara angle... Have Book as the coincidence. ) incidentally, this could just be a simple mistake as in all the versions of the pilot I have in my collection, Simon says Persephone, not Boros (I may be going mad though as I always thought he said Boros before I had even read the shooting script! insanity.) It says Boros on both TwizTV and the Visual Companion shooting scripts though.

(I had a point about Mal/Inara, but I seem to have forgotten it, so i'll just move along.)

Back on topic, another thing while funny does detract from firefly is ParodyMal. Or PanickyMal. You know how he panicks when that womans water broke? it was funny, but it was also cliched for tv, and different for Mal. I shall call it ParodyMal. (put him alongside DarkMal, AngryMal, HappyMal etc to describe particular characteristics.)

Just thinking about this now, but before hand Mal has deadened his reaction to events. Yes he gets happy, sad, angry, hurt, but each and every time that sensation is deadened by an all conquering sense of calculation. Look at Mal at the start of Out of Gas before the fire. He is in there, but not. Same with most other places. Occasionally he misjudged things to hilarious consequences, but always his own reaction is muted.

When Kaylee gets shot, when he opens the box, when he finds Saffron, when he gets drugged, when he is amongst the crew as a friends and colleague, when the fire strikes, when gets tortured, when he gets back. in each of those there is always a sense of calculation in him. As if he rebuilt each and every aspect of his character with painstaking care to fashion it in a certain way. (to do that natural reactions need to be dampened.)

But when the water breaks, he is all panicky with no sense of calculation at all.

In short, ParodyMal almost feels like a parody.

thoughts? (I could be way off base though - I have not seen a single second of a single episode for about three months now. It's almost sacriledge.)

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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 4:21 PM

RALLEM


Quote:

Originally posted by nbz:
They already have laser. One of the first. The Lassiter. Who needs two?

(yeah, they probably do retrieve it for salvage/sale - they are supposed to be expensive in the 'verse. Probably in cost price and also in maintenance/usage. There is also the same issue with Jubal's ship in OiS. Why did they waste good salvage material?)

Quote:

MAL4PREZ WROTE:
OK, to take a writer's view: It's the pilot episode, and Joss has a lot of info to impart on a lot of characters and not long to do it. He's already showed us that Mal is tricksey (and every time Mal is tricksey, Joss lets us know in no uncertain terms.) I think that this tiny little moment is there to tell us that Mal does indeed feel something for Inara, and that's all.



On the other hand - it is the pilot and he is threading many storylines - some which had to be scrapped.

As an example, one thing I noticed in the shooting script is that in Simon's speech about River, he mentions that he paid the underground to get him to Boros. Serenity goes from Persephone to Boros. Mal has no idea that he is smuggling something. Who made the deal? (I think you prefer the Book angle. I prefer the Inara angle... Have Book as the coincidence. ) incidentally, this could just be a simple mistake as in all the versions of the pilot I have in my collection, Simon says Persephone, not Boros (I may be going mad though as I always thought he said Boros before I had even read the shooting script! insanity.) It says Boros on both TwizTV and the Visual Companion shooting scripts though.

(I had a point about Mal/Inara, but I seem to have forgotten it, so i'll just move along.)

Back on topic, another thing while funny does detract from firefly is ParodyMal. Or PanickyMal. You know how he panicks when that womans water broke? it was funny, but it was also cliched for tv, and different for Mal. I shall call it ParodyMal. (put him alongside DarkMal, AngryMal, HappyMal etc to describe particular characteristics.)

Just thinking about this now, but before hand Mal has deadened his reaction to events. Yes he gets happy, sad, angry, hurt, but each and every time that sensation is deadened by an all conquering sense of calculation. Look at Mal at the start of Out of Gas before the fire. He is in there, but not. Same with most other places. Occasionally he misjudged things to hilarious consequences, but always his own reaction is muted.

When Kaylee gets shot, when he opens the box, when he finds Saffron, when he gets drugged, when he is amongst the crew as a friends and colleague, when the fire strikes, when gets tortured, when he gets back. in each of those there is always a sense of calculation in him. As if he rebuilt each and every aspect of his character with painstaking care to fashion it in a certain way. (to do that natural reactions need to be dampened.)

But when the water breaks, he is all panicky with no sense of calculation at all.

In short, ParodyMal almost feels like a parody.

thoughts? (I could be way off base though - I have not seen a single second of a single episode for about three months now. It's almost sacriledge.)



The Lasiter was sold for profit for two reasons, one it did not work, and two that was the aim of the mission. The laser in Heart of gold worked very well, but I doubt the Crew of Serenity would want it because while it is more powerful than a firearm it also carries heavy pelnalties for unlicensed carriers so the risk would not be worth the rewards.


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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 4:48 PM

ZZETTA13


HOG

Jayne" Good,'cause I don't know these folk and I don't much care."

"Jayne they're whores!"

"I'm in."

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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 5:18 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by nbz:
On the other hand - it is the pilot and he is threading many storylines - some which had to be scrapped.

Hmm. But I'm failing to see what storyline purpose it would serve to have Mal faking Inara out in that little bit. Unless you're going somewhere wild, where Inara's really an evil secret agent and Mal knows and is trying to play her... I guess anything's possible, but that smells kinda crackfic-y to me. If Mal suspects her that much, how come we see nothing of it for the rest of the series and movie?

Quote:

As an example, one thing I noticed in the shooting script is that in Simon's speech about River, he mentions that he paid the underground to get him to Boros. Serenity goes from Persephone to Boros. Mal has no idea that he is smuggling something. Who made the deal?
Um, sorry, I don't get it. Why is a deal necessary?

OK, I looked at the script and see that Simon's line originally said "Boros." I'm still not getting how this is an example of a buried plotline. More of a mistake or an adjustment in technicalities, I think.

Quote:

You know how he panicks when that womans water broke?
OMG! Another not so good moment. And his whole - "It's time. Oh! It's time! *panics*" Soooo stupid. I didn't even find that funny the first time I saw it. So cliche. I won't blame Mal for that though, just the writers.

Quote:

in each of those there is always a sense of calculation in him. As if he rebuilt each and every aspect of his character with painstaking care to fashion it in a certain way. (to do that natural reactions need to be dampened.)
Hmm, okay. I don't disagree at all, I'm just not seeing the relevance. If you mean to push the water breaking thing - hey, I'm right there with ya! It was a stupid choice by the writer, and part of the reason the episode sits poorly with me, despite all the Mal/Inara goodness. (See me tying into the thread there? )

But if you're talking about Mal's treatment of Inara in the pilot episode... I agree that he's deadened and he holds back his natural reactions, but I don't see it as calculated as much as survival mechanism. Meaning, it's not consciously done. I don't think he calculates purely to manipulate people, but to defend himself.

A-ha! I just put on the Serenity the Pilot commentary. Joss says as Mal pushes Inara's shoulder: "Important moment! Originally, this is the first time you [Mal] made it very clear how much you care about her..." (Trying to be good and not stick out my tongue... LOL!)

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:27 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I'm not sure if you 2 are women, but I'm highly suspectin.
Breaking water Panicky is not a cliche. It's reality. I'm familiar with numerous EMT crews, and when it's a water breaking call, all the men RACE to get in the driver's seat. They go the fastest as they can to get to the Hospital. If ever a woman gets behind the wheel on a breaking water call, she drives as slow as possible, lights and sirens on full blast, plodding along well below the speed limit, hoping the deleivery will happen before arrival at Hospital.
PanickyMal is not a parody. It's reality. Of all that Mal is, he's still a guy.

Also, I don't think Mal calculates for defense or manipulation of others. He does it to maintain effectiveness. Logical, effective thought is inhibited by emotion, which blinds the mind. To keep his wits about him, he has learned to absorb the emotion in the instantaneous situation - emeotion can be dealt with later. But if you're dead, you helped nobody.

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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:54 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
If ever a woman gets behind the wheel on a breaking water call, she drives as slow as possible, lights and sirens on full blast, plodding along well below the speed limit, hoping the deleivery will happen before arrival at Hospital.
PanickyMal is not a parody. It's reality. Of all that Mal is, he's still a guy.




I know it's off topic, but... why ever would these women do that??

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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 10:38 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


They want the birth to occur in their care, like as if they're midwives. It's cute, gloriuous, defining moment in a woman's life, blah blah blah. It's a women thing. All the men want to get to the Hospital as fast as possible so the birth does not occur in their presence. They are all trained to perform delivery, but they do not want to do it if avoidable. The female EMTs tend towards wanting to perform the task.


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Wednesday, November 14, 2007 2:48 AM

JONGSSTRAW


I don't understand Inara at all. What the hell does she want in life? Does she really want to continue to have meaningless sex with rich men and boys all her life? Is her goal in life to take their money so she can buy fancy dresses?

The speech she makes to Mal in HOG really shows how twisted her brain is....she interrupts Mal's tender moment of truthsomeness by saying how she admired Nandi and learned a lot fronm her...her strength, her friendships; and you can see and feel her love for Mal, Serenity, and the Crew in her words and demeanor. But she's afraid of staying with the people she loves....why? Is it better back at the Training House?...teaching young men and women to have sex and make tea? In the long run Mal is better off without her. She is really just a reflective shadow of Saffron in many ways ...they both use their bodies as instruments to get what they want from men, and they're both drifting aimlessly from one caper to the next. Someday they'll both grow up a little & realize that family and friends are the only important things in life.

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Wednesday, November 14, 2007 3:05 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
They want the birth to occur in their care, like as if they're midwives. It's cute, gloriuous, defining moment in a woman's life, blah blah blah. It's a women thing. All the men want to get to the Hospital as fast as possible so the birth does not occur in their presence. They are all trained to perform delivery, but they do not want to do it if avoidable. The female EMTs tend towards wanting to perform the task.




Isn't that scarily selfish of them, considering they probably don't have all the pain meds on them that hospital staff would have?

I'm honestly freaked out!

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Wednesday, November 14, 2007 3:53 AM

RALLEM


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
They want the birth to occur in their care, like as if they're midwives. It's cute, gloriuous, defining moment in a woman's life, blah blah blah. It's a women thing. All the men want to get to the Hospital as fast as possible so the birth does not occur in their presence. They are all trained to perform delivery, but they do not want to do it if avoidable. The female EMTs tend towards wanting to perform the task.




Isn't that scarily selfish of them, considering they probably don't have all the pain meds on them that hospital staff would have?

I'm honestly freaked out!



Too many people put too much importance on pain medication. I am not saying that pain medication does not have a place, but in my opinion too many people are taking way too many pain medications instead of looking for alternate and healthier ways of pain management.


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Wednesday, November 14, 2007 4:13 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by rallem:

Too many people put too much importance on pain medication.



I dunno. Pain is scary. :) I'm more of a John Candy guy myself: "No pain... sounds good to me!" :)


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Wednesday, November 14, 2007 5:20 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I'm not sure if you 2 are women, but I'm highly suspectin.

yep. Woman here. Not sure how that matters especially much.

Now, I know EMTs - of both flavors - who wouldn't be dawdling on the way to the hospital, no matter what the emergency. Sure as hell, no EMT should risk the life of the mother and baby just they can have a novel experience. I find it a little horrifying that you know people who would.

BTW - isn't there another cliche about men crying and having a big life change after witnessing childbirth? Who are these men you know who are so horrified by it? Sounds like you're living in the cliche of women being ruled by their emotions, and men ruled by practicality. Obviously, you don't live in *my* world!

Yeah, as far as cliches go, there's a whole bunch of assumed behaviors that are often used as jokes. ie - men never ask for directions. Women binge on chocolate ice cream after a bad date. Men panic over childbirth. Women panic over changing the oil in their car. Men have meaningless sex and that's a *score*. Women have meaningless sex and that's confusing - don't they want more from life? (this is for Jongstraw...) And maybe if we did a study we'd find these behaviors are true of a majority of men/women. Or maybe we wouldn't, cause very few of these things apply to me, or the people I know.

And actually, whether the panic thing is true of most men or not is beside the point. The thing is - this joke is old. It's been done and done and done. To death. Every damned sitcom involving childbirth has the big manyly man going all jelly while the canned laughter plays in the background. And maybe that's because it's a joke that works for a majority of viewers over and over again, but material like that is not what pulls me into Firefly. If I wanted trite cliche jokes, I'll watch everything else on TV.

So, yeah, I expect more of Firefly. At the very least, I expect Mal to panic in a novel way. Example: MIB. The pregnant alien lady in the car - Will Smith does the stereotypical male panic, but then it plays out in a new way which I find quite entertaining. The FF writers may not have had the alien card to play, but I'm sure they could have had Mal say or do something original. His behavior and lines in that bit of HoG are soooo stale.


-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Wednesday, November 14, 2007 6:25 AM

MERRYK


Now see, I think it was less a joke and more an exploration of Mal's character. I think it's clear that he's uncomfortable with open relationships...that is, he can be affectionate or have relationships, just not show them, and he doesn't want others to do that either. He's very uncomfortable with Simon and River, and I don't think it's because they're fugitives. He is equally uncomfortable with Wash and Zoe, and even told Zoe not to marry Wash. He's uncomfortable with Jayne's views on relationships, and also Inara's. The only relationship he didn't freak out over was Kaylee and Simon in the bar at Jaynestown...which I would think he'd at least look a little upset about. He has a problem with family and relationships.

Anyway, when it comes to the childbirth, I think it's his intimacy issues coming to the front again. Notice that Wash, Book, and Jayne don't go all panicky, and Simon is cool as a cucumber about it all. It's just Mal. Here is another evidence of relationship, of family, of something he can't really grasp a hold of himself. It's not the childbirth itself, it's motherhood.

That's my take, anyway.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Wednesday, November 14, 2007 7:02 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by rallem:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
They want the birth to occur in their care, like as if they're midwives. It's cute, gloriuous, defining moment in a woman's life, blah blah blah. It's a women thing. All the men want to get to the Hospital as fast as possible so the birth does not occur in their presence. They are all trained to perform delivery, but they do not want to do it if avoidable. The female EMTs tend towards wanting to perform the task.




Isn't that scarily selfish of them, considering they probably don't have all the pain meds on them that hospital staff would have?

I'm honestly freaked out!



Too many people put too much importance on pain medication. I am not saying that pain medication does not have a place, but in my opinion too many people are taking way too many pain medications instead of looking for alternate and healthier ways of pain management.




But I'm sure you agree that it should be a choice everyone gets to make for themselves, and not have it dictated by someone else's need to run your painful birth process, right?


I know many women who are all about "experiencing the pain of childbirth", going so far as to say "Why would you want children if you can't take the pain of childbirth?", which is so many levels beyond offensive and ridiculous, I don't know what to say to that.

I'm a big fan of pain meds. And modern medicine in general. Nature is not perfect, it's only as imperfect as it got away with back in times of natural selection, so I feel free to interfere with the parts that have me keening and whimpering and curled up fetal-wise.

But still, power to those who choose other paths, as well. It's the choice that matters and people taking it away, that's what riles me up madly.

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Wednesday, November 14, 2007 7:39 AM

RALLEM


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by rallem:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
They want the birth to occur in their care, like as if they're midwives. It's cute, gloriuous, defining moment in a woman's life, blah blah blah. It's a women thing. All the men want to get to the Hospital as fast as possible so the birth does not occur in their presence. They are all trained to perform delivery, but they do not want to do it if avoidable. The female EMTs tend towards wanting to perform the task.




Isn't that scarily selfish of them, considering they probably don't have all the pain meds on them that hospital staff would have?

I'm honestly freaked out!



Too many people put too much importance on pain medication. I am not saying that pain medication does not have a place, but in my opinion too many people are taking way too many pain medications instead of looking for alternate and healthier ways of pain management.




But I'm sure you agree that it should be a choice everyone gets to make for themselves, and not have it dictated by someone else's need to run your painful birth process, right?


I know many women who are all about "experiencing the pain of childbirth", going so far as to say "Why would you want children if you can't take the pain of childbirth?", which is so many levels beyond offensive and ridiculous, I don't know what to say to that.

I'm a big fan of pain meds. And modern medicine in general. Nature is not perfect, it's only as imperfect as it got away with back in times of natural selection, so I feel free to interfere with the parts that have me keening and whimpering and curled up fetal-wise.

But still, power to those who choose other paths, as well. It's the choice that matters and people taking it away, that's what riles me up madly.



AGENTROUKA
Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 08:05







Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
They want the birth to occur in their care, like as if they're midwives. It's cute, gloriuous, defining moment in a woman's life, blah blah blah. It's a women thing. All the men want to get to the Hospital as fast as possible so the birth does not occur in their presence. They are all trained to perform delivery, but they do not want to do it if avoidable. The female EMTs tend towards wanting to perform the task.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Isn't that scarily selfish of them, considering they probably don't have all the pain meds on them that hospital staff would have?

I'm honestly freaked out!


People should have the choice, but I also believe that choice should be an informed choice and people should go through a form of Lamaze training which highlights various forms of pain management lessons. I am a man, and I have been forced tolive with pain every since January of 1986 when I fell 50' from a cliff in Colmar France, but I have to say yhtat I think that is nothing compared to a friend of mine who suffers from Trigeminal neuralgia which is called the suicide nerve. As a child I was scared of pain and refused to give an honest effort to catching the ball in kickball becasue of the slap and raspberry the ball would sometimes give, but then one day I caught the ball and received the raspberry on my face. The pain was not so bad and went away and from that time on I no longer fear pain.



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Wednesday, November 14, 2007 8:48 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by rallem:

People should have the choice, but I also believe that choice should be an informed choice and people should go through a form of Lamaze training which highlights various forms of pain management lessons.




I'm glad we agree, then. :)



I do, however, think that there is a very big difference between types of pain, how the body deals with each and what helps where.

Birth pain is very different from chronic pain from injury or illness, though I imagine each can be at equal levels.

Birth pain isn't the kind that "won't be so bad" once you try it, at least not for all women. Not for many,judging by how popular pain meds are.

Similarly, chronic pain doesn't have an assured ending to it like childbirth does, and needs a long-term strategy to deal with it and its effects on the body.

As with everything, informed choices are the key, like you say.

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Wednesday, November 14, 2007 2:04 PM

NBZ


while I am finding the discussion of pain and child bearing riveting, I'll jump back a little. (sorry about ignoring AgentRourka, Merryk and others posts, they had some good meat in them that I really am interested by...)

Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
Hmm. But I'm failing to see what storyline purpose it would serve to have Mal faking Inara out in that little bit.

Not "faking out". Real emotion used in a calculated manner.

I do not think he is too suspicious of Inara's motives (apart from in Trash... Wiles and all that are like some sort of magic...), just Inara wanted to stay with the rest, and he had other ideas. he showed that he cares, she backed down. Was it real? yes. Was it spontaneous? probably. Was it manipulative? I think so.

Quote:

OK, I looked at the script and see that Simon's line originally said "Boros."


I have no idea where I was going with that in relation to this discussion either.

Quote:

Quote:

You know how he panicks when that womans water broke?
OMG! Another not so good moment. And his whole - "It's time. Oh! It's time! *panics*" Soooo stupid. I didn't even find that funny the first time I saw it. So cliche.



Something we can totally agree on.

Quote:

Hmm, okay. I don't disagree at all, I'm just not seeing the relevance.
Just waffle mostly. line of thought got types instead of thought.. and not very well. It was an attempt to say that Mal has erm... "reacts differently" is probably the best way to put it. He gives himself a chance for thought. A deliberateness that makes the mishaps even funnier.

Quote:

I agree that he's deadened and he holds back his natural reactions, but I don't see it as calculated as much as survival mechanism. Meaning, it's not consciously done. I don't think he calculates purely to manipulate people, but to defend himself.


Ofcourse. Not everything is conscious, or has too much thought behind it.

Quote:

JEWELSTAITEFAN wrote:
Also, I don't think Mal calculates for defense or manipulation of others. He does it to maintain effectiveness. Logical, effective thought is inhibited by emotion, which blinds the mind. To keep his wits about him, he has learned to absorb the emotion in the instantaneous situation - emeotion can be dealt with later. But if you're dead, you helped nobody.



Put way better than I ever could.

Quote:

MAL4PREZ wrote:
A-ha! I just put on the Serenity the Pilot commentary. Joss says as Mal pushes Inara's shoulder: "Important moment! Originally, this is the first time you [Mal] made it very clear how much you care about her..." (Trying to be good and not stick out my tongue... LOL!)



So do I have to distribute humble pie? (Grown ups are allowed to stick their tongues out. Atleast that is what I will tell everyone.) in my defence, I am not trying to suggest that it was all faked emotion. just that he chose to show it for convenience rather than being overwhelmed.

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Wednesday, November 14, 2007 4:39 PM

RALLEM


In "Heart of Gold," there were several wooden buildings in the design of the old west but yet there were very few trees if any on world, so how did the settlers get their lumber? Wouldn’t it have been easier to bring their own prefabricated futuristic material buildings to save on weight rather than hauling lumber? Actually this phenomenon is quite common in most of the outer worlds and moons that had buildings.


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Thursday, November 15, 2007 1:44 AM

WYTCHCROFT


read the whole thread with delight.

i don't think the relationship or not with inara will ever be clear - but the commentaries make it plain they were building in the 'chemistry' and i DO find their scenes quite moving... and her leaving arc is astute - i don't see her coming back.

JEWELSTAITEFAN - it's interesting to compare the 'waters' scene with the same one in Angel, when Darla floods the back of the car. Only Wesley panics (because it's funny) - and not overly.

NBZ - 'parodymal' i agree. but it is on occasion hi-larious.

Finallly - i'll throw this in.
WHO is the woman Mal is talking about just before gettin it on with Nandi?
SAFFRON.

Nandi. "I'm not her".

the fusion of Inara/Yos-Saff tickles me everytime.

and probably says a great deal about Mal.

or not so much.

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Thursday, December 6, 2007 3:10 PM

LAWMAN


I'm sure somebody did bring this up before about HOG. but last week, when i saw it again for the 11th time (i don't see this episode as much as the others), i really noticed something i never thought about before. before the local dudes attack the brothel, they have this big hell raising meeting in town. and when he tells the betrayer to get on her knees... i never noticed that scene all this time. not sure it added anything of particular importance to the plot line, but made him a really bad jerk. just never noticed it before...

everyone dies alone

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