Lost in French Translation, Part 09: Ariel by fortinm

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Lost in French Translation, Part 09: Ariel

POSTED BY: FORTINM
UPDATED: Thursday, January 17, 2008 17:33
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Thursday, January 10, 2008 4:01 PM

This review is part of a series of articles analysing the translation work for the French dubbed Firefly series and movie(s). It is intended for anyone who would like to know a little better how a French audience would perceive Joss’ wonderful creation.

Introduction to this series: http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=4&t=31382
Previous review (Out of Gas): http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=4&t=32090
Next review (War Stories): http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=4&t=32395

The various excerpts analyses are formatted like this:
In bold is the original line.
In italic is the French translation replacing the original lines.
In bold and italic is my English translation of the French lines.
In regular text is my personal comment on the translation work for the excerpt.

General comments
My rating is on the fence for this one. But the bottom line is that there are many gross mistakes that change the story and the characters' motivation. This episode is a little better than the worst so far, but I must put it in the "bad ones" bin. The fact that there is no Chinese doesn't help either.

Interestingly, they replaced the "amygdala stripping" reference with an "arachnoid operation" to explain River's condition. I've done a bit of research on the arachnoid [mater] but was unable to learn if it is a biologically valid explanation. Maybe some of you will be able to enlighten me.

Translation score: 2/5
Chinese score: 0/4

Chosen Excerpts

JAYNE and KAYLEE
- Smells like crotch.
- Jayne!
- Well, it does.
- C'est ton haleine qu'on sent, là?
- Jayne!
- Il ne se lave pas les dents.
- It's your breath we smell, now?
- Jayne!
- He doesn't brush his teeth.
Not really funny in French and we lose the link with the previous Simon and River exchange. The scene doesn't flow!

MAL, JAYNE and WASH
- Could've gotten off with Shepherd Book at the Bathgate Abbey. You could be meditating over the wonders of your rock garden right about now.
- Better'n just sittin'.
- It is just sittin'.
- Toi tu aurais dû descendre à l'abbaye San Sebastien. Tu serais en train de méditer sur ton sort en désherbant ton jardin potager.
- J'ai besoin d'action.
- Tu n'es pas tout seul.
- You should have got off at the San Sebastien abbey. You would now be meditating on your fate while weeding your vegetable garden.
- I need action.
- You're not the only one.
This is again less funny and the added complaint from Wash doesn't go well with its body language. Also note the puzzling but completely inconsequential abbey rename.

WASH
Can I use "Companion" as a verb?
Je ne savais pas qu'il fallait un permis.
I didn't know a licence was needed.
It already was established, since the beginning of the series that the companion guild was much regimented. Wash should know better. That being said, I don't think this line could have been translated as-is in French.

INARA
All Companions are required to undergo a physical exam once a year.
Toutes les prostituées doivent passer un examen médical une fois par an.
All prostitutes must pass a medical exam once a year.
They've used the term "compagne" before. Inara should have used it here. This is an unforgivable mistake for this character.

JAYNE (talking about leaving River and Simon)
Might even pick us up a reward for our troubles.
Après tout le mal qu'ils ont fait, ça serait normal.
After all the evil they've caused, it would be normal.
In my opinion, the reward allusion was the most important notion here.

MAL and WASH
- Alliance territory. Ain't any jobs worth havin'.
- Nor the last three places we been.
- Sur ce territoire, tout travail est bon à prendre.
- Pourquoi on n'est pas venu avant alors?
- On this territory, any work is good.
- Why didn't we come before, then?
No, no, and no. It is exactly the opposite of what he's saying.

SIMON and WASH
- Whatever the take, more than enough payment for what I have in mind.
- So the medvault's not the job?
- Quelle que soit la prise, ça vous rapportera bien plus que ce à quoi je pensais.
- Cette fois, va falloir nous en dire plus.
- Whatever the catch is, it will get you even more than what I was thinking of.
- This time, you'll have to tell us more.
Firstly, these sentences don't make much sense. Secondly, leaving out the medvault question makes the following response from Simon a bit disorienting for the audience.

MAL (about the stolen drugs)
And folks on the rim could use it.
Une petite goutte d'eau dans l'océan.
A small drop in the ocean.
Here, in French, our heroes are less heroic.

JAYNE
Hell, I don't know. If I'd wanted schooling, I'd have gone to school.
J'en ai marre de ton truc, là. J'arrête, c'est trop dur.
I have enough of this. I give up, it's too hard.
We're losing non trivial information for this character.

SIMON and JAYNE
- If those officers hadn't been armed, I think you'd have had a chance.
- Guy shoved me, I shoved back. Not like I was trying to mount a rescue.
- Still. I appreciate you trying.
- Ils ne sont pas armés. Je crois qu'on a une chance.
- Il m'a doublé, je le doublerai. J'ai fait tout le boulot pour lui.
- C'est vrai. Je comprends ta colère, et je la partage.
- They're unarmed. I think we have a chance.
- He double-crossed me, I'll double-cross him. I did all the work for him.
- That's true. I understand your anger, and I share it.
Big, big mistake. It clearly states that Simon knows that Jayne has betrayed them and he accepts it matter-of-factly. At the risk of repeating myself, it's a very stupid mistake.

MC GINNIS
We got it all down.
On les a descendus.
We shot them down. or, more probably, We brought them downstairs.
I put the two possible meanings because, at first, I really understood that they killed them. In French, this expression is almost always used in this fashion.

RIVER
Two by two. Hands of blue. Two by two. Hands of blue.
Ils sont revenus. Ils sont revenus. Les mains bleues. Ils sont revenus.
They came back. They came back. The blue hands. They came back.
Yet, they translated as-is the "two by two" expression in "The Train Job". Why not here?

WASH
We'll be out of atmo in five minutes.
Tu permets que je reprenne mes esprits? Merci.
Do you allow me to get my wits back? Thank you.
I'm having a hard time finding a reason for this change.

MAL (responding to Jayne protesting that the alliance arrested him)
Which is what happens when you call the feds.
Oui. Tu les as appelés et, donc, ils t'avaient localisé.
Yes. You called them and, so, they located you.
But that was Jayne's plan! This is not a good retort from Mal.

Thanks for reading!

Michel

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Friday, January 11, 2008 2:32 AM

ASARIAN

Thanks, fortinm! Great job, again. A few small notes:

Quote:

WASH
Can I use "Companion" as a verb?
Je ne savais pas qu'il fallait un permis.
I didn't know a licence was needed.
(...) That being said, I don't think this line could have been translated as-is in French.

Would something like this work?

Est-ce que possible d'employer "compagner"?

Of course, in French, you cannot say it any other way than already making a verb of "compagne". Still, I would have preferred something like that over what they came up with instead.

Quote:

MC GINNIS
We got it all down.
On les a descendus.
We shot them down. or, more probably, We brought them downstairs.
I put the two possible meanings because, at first, I really understood that they killed them. In French, this expression is almost always used in this fashion.

Yes, that's silly. In the context, "We got it all down." really can mean only two things: either "We got all the (paper)work in order." (meaning: the prisoners are ready for transport), or "We wrote it all down." I'm almost certain the former is the proper meaning, here. It certainly, in the context, doesn't mean "We brought them downstairs."

You're the expert, of course, but I thought the French could be translated:

"We brought them down."

In the same metaphorical sense as it exists in English, meaning: "We arrested/stopped them." That would be a mite more acceptable. Still, it's nowhere near the meaning of "We got it all down."

Also, in English, there's a minute nuance between 'brought down' and 'took down'.

"We took them down."

Would be closer to: "We killed them." (and this one, in turn, is closer to: "We took them downstairs;" funny how language works.)

Quote:

WASH
We'll be out of atmo in five minutes.
Tu permets que je reprenne mes esprits? Merci.
Do you allow me to get my wits back? Thank you.
I'm having a hard time finding a reason for this change.

I'm guessing they wanted to stress that Wash is going as fast as he can; as in:

"I'm working on it; gimme a few minutes to do my job, will ya?"

Of course, like you say, there's no good reason to have Wash say anything else than he did.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sunday, January 13, 2008 6:02 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

You know, it seems to me they're simply trying to ignore Joss's writing style and just stick w/ telling a story. However, in doing so ,they sanitize and homoginize the beautiful interaction and meanings inherent w/ the way the characters mix w/ each other. Joss does more than simply give lines to characters to tell a story, he laces his dialogue with subtle side remarks which tell us more about those speaking the lines than could otherwise be done.

Jayne - " Better'n just sitting "
Wash - " It IS just sitting "

The contrast between what they're doing on the ship,( nothing ), to what Book and the other Shepherds will be doing at the Abbey, which is medidating.

Jayne talking about getting a 'reward' for leaving the Tams, falls in line w/ his value of money, even over those in need.

I think someone made a conscious decission to simply save themselves some time and slap together a watered down script for the French version.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, January 13, 2008 1:00 PM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

You know, it seems to me they're simply trying to ignore Joss's writing style and just stick w/ telling a story. However, in doing so ,they sanitize and homoginize the beautiful interaction and meanings inherent w/ the way the characters mix w/ each other. Joss does more than simply give lines to characters to tell a story, he laces his dialogue with subtle side remarks which tell us more about those speaking the lines than could otherwise be done.

Very true! You know, it just occured to me, that the single most disturbing thing about the French translation is the utter loss of the slangy way of talkin' (not counting "hein", cuz, well, that don't count). Now I ain't sayin' it ain't accurate, but bonafide 'Verse speak? Not so much. That alone necessarily makes it low-grade.

Now, how many folks don't speak English? Not a one, I'd say. But okay, you were busy getting yourself raised in another tongue. It happens. Been there, done that. But I'm like the Operative: I prefer to see the event without bias. :) I read Goethe in German, Montesquieu in French; and heck, I even prefer to read the NT in Koine Greek. I'm not interested in a 'better' joke; I want the story Joss told, in Joss-speak. Thing with the French translators, though, is that they keep swinging back to the belief that they can tell the story better. And I do not hold to that.

--

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Tuesday, January 15, 2008 2:56 PM

FORTINM

Quote:
Quote:
Can I use "Companion" as a verb?
(...) That being said, I don't think this line could have been translated as-is in French.

Would something like this work?

Est-ce que possible d'employer "compagner"?

Let's see. Starting from the previous line:

Big stop just to renew your license to Companion.
Can I use "Companion" as a verb?
Putting your suggestion:
C'est long pour renouveler ton autorisation à compagner.
Est-ce que "compagner" est correct?

Not bad. I even think it would blend well with the lips' movements. What do you say we translate all the episodes from scratch? Seems simple enough!

Quote:
Yes, that's silly. In the context, "We got it all down." really can mean only two things: either "We got all the (paper)work in order." (meaning: the prisoners are ready for transport), or "We wrote it all down." I'm almost certain the former is the proper meaning, here.

Funny. I would have gone for the latter. He just said that River was talking gibberish and writing it all down would certainly entice the Blue Hands wrath.

Quote:
You're the expert, of course, but I thought the French could be translated:

"We brought them down."

In the same metaphorical sense as it exists in English, meaning: "We arrested/stopped them." That would be a mite more acceptable. Still, it's nowhere near the meaning of "We got it all down."

Thanks for the compliment, but I'm no expert, particularly not in English. However, in my opinion, "On les a descendus" cannot mean arrested or stopped. If you say that "We brought them down" has the primary and obvious meaning of "bringing someone to a lower floor", I could have used it. The French sentence can only mean this... and, of course, "killing someone".

Quote:
Also, in English, there's a minute nuance between 'brought down' and 'took down'.

"We took them down."

Would be closer to: "We killed them." (and this one, in turn, is closer to: "We took them downstairs;" funny how language works.)

Are you saying that "We took them down" have the same double meaning as "On les a descendus"? If, in addition, the "to kill" meaning is stronger, that would be the perfect translation for "On les a descendus".

Quote:
...funny how language works

Language is indeed a fascinating concept. You will try to learn one, any one, all your life and will never entirely master it. But the joy is in trying!

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Tuesday, January 15, 2008 3:44 PM

FORTINM

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Now, how many folks don't speak English? Not a one, I'd say.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. In my neck of the woods we have people who only speak English and others who only speak French. I know some of them.

Quote:
Thing with the French translators, though, is that they keep swinging back to the belief that they can tell the story better. And I do not hold to that.

Although I don't think it is exclusive to French translators, I tend to agree with this statement. I briefly said so in my introduction to this series. But I also wrote that, sometimes, the translated work is indeed better than the original. It's naturally more prevalent for mediocre original works.

I have an example of this. When it comes to movies and television, most of my friends almost exclusively consume English works, in their original version. Some of them also are hardcore gamers (console or computer). The consensus is that French translated video-games are far superior to their original English version. When they have to choice, they'll always choose the French translation, even more so if it was done locally (Québec). The voice-actors are simply better and more experienced. I'm not a gamer but I've heard this many times.

I know that we were talking about the text and not the interpretation, so I'll take another example. The Simpsons are as good in Québécois as their original version. Not better, but as good. The writers took the time to adapt the cultural references when needed and all the jokes are there. I don't mind watching it in either language.

But, unfortunately, this is not so with Firefly. I agree with Auraptor and Asarian. The translators were either incompetent, lazy or didn't have enough time to do a good job.

But, even in Firefly, there are still some lines or short scenes that I consider better in French. I feel that my work is justified if only to spot these rare pearls. Sometimes, it almost feels like I'm watching a different show; a show that resembles Firefly but is not quite there.

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Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:08 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by fortinm:

Let's see. Starting from the previous line:

Big stop just to renew your license to Companion.
Can I use "Companion" as a verb?

Putting your suggestion:

C'est long pour renouveler ton autorisation à compagner.
Est-ce que "compagner" est correct?

Not bad. I even think it would blend well with the lips' movements.

Works for me. :)

Quote:

Quote:
Yes, that's silly. In the context, "We got it all down." really can mean only two things: either "We got all the (paper)work in order." (meaning: the prisoners are ready for transport), or "We wrote it all down." I'm almost certain the former is the proper meaning, here.

Funny. I would have gone for the latter. He just said that River was talking gibberish and writing it all down would certainly entice the Blue Hands wrath.

Come to think of it, that actually makes equally sense, if not more. :) But my point was more that both "We killed them" and "We brought them downstairs" are impossible meanings.

Quote:

Thanks for the compliment, but I'm no expert, particularly not in English. However, in my opinion, "On les a descendus" cannot mean arrested or stopped.

That's why you're the expert. :)

Quote:

Are you saying that "We took them down" have the same double meaning as "On les a descendus"? If, in addition, the "to kill" meaning is stronger, that would be the perfect translation for "On les a descendus".

Yes. That's what I was saying. Consider the following sentences:

"He took him down with a single shot."
"He brought him down with a single shot."

Both can potentially mean the same thing. But in the first sentence one gets more clearly the idea that the person shot is on his merry to the next 'Verse. :)

Too bad though that "On les a descendus" really can only mean "We killed them," as that line then qualifies for the worst possible translation in the series. :) I mean, didn't the translators see River and Simon later, and figured: "Oops! I guess they didn't kill em after all."?

And you're right: someone really ought to redo the whole translation.

--

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Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:25 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by fortinm:

Quote:
Thing with the French translators, though, is that they keep swinging back to the belief that they can tell the story better. And I do not hold to that.

Although I don't think it is exclusive to French translators, I tend to agree with this statement.

Yes, the French are certainly not the only ones. The Germans do it, too; they call it "nachsynchronisieren", and it sounds awful. I mean, there's just something rather unsettlin' about hearing John Wayne says "Hände hoch!" :)

I'm guessing every sufficiently large country will do so.

Quote:

I have an example of this. When it comes to movies and television, most of my friends almost exclusively consume English works, in their original version. Some of them also are hardcore gamers (console or computer). The consensus is that French translated video-games are far superior to their original English version. When they have to choice, they'll always choose the French translation, even more so if it was done locally (Québec). The voice-actors are simply better and more experienced. I'm not a gamer but I've heard this many times.

Oh, I didn't know that (that was my Kaylee-impression, btw). Interesting to hear, though.

Quote:

I know that we were talking about the text and not the interpretation, so I'll take another example. The Simpsons are as good in Québécois as their original version. Not better, but as good. The writers took the time to adapt the cultural references when needed and all the jokes are there. I don't mind watching it in either language.

...HUH...

Quote:

But, unfortunately, this is not so with Firefly. I agree with Auraptor and Asarian. The translators were either incompetent, lazy or didn't have enough time to do a good job.

I'm thinking the latter. The way, for instance, they went from "Termites" to "Ravageurs" tells me that it was most like a rush job. Or they were incompetent, or lazy. :)

--

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Thursday, January 17, 2008 5:33 PM

FORTINM

Quote:
Yes, the French are certainly not the only ones. The Germans do it, too; they call it "nachsynchronisieren", and it sounds awful. I mean, there's just something rather unsettlin' about hearing John Wayne says "Hände hoch!" :)

I'm guessing every sufficiently large country will do so.

There aren't many people as fluent in so many languages as you seem to be. For these unfortunate folks, dubbing is one solution. Although I personally think that the subtitles solution is almost always a better one. Apart from the previously cited exceptions and some others unmentionned, of course. I will go as far as to say that, and let's keep this between us, dubbing is for the lazy ones and subtitles for the smart ones!

Quote:
Quote:
The Simpsons are as good in Québécois as their original version. Not better, but as good. The writers took the time to adapt the cultural references when needed and all the jokes are there. I don't mind watching it in either language.

...HUH...

Oh! And was that your Mal-impression? You sure do a good one, even if unintentionally.

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