Our Mrs Reynolds by AURaptor

I've never been able to decide which I like better...Good Bible or Good Myth. I can also relate a little to Mal's "plough" situation!

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Monday, January 14, 2008 11:29 AM

DOMSDAFIRDA

The thing that confuses about this episode and the Episode 'Trash' is the connection between Simon/River and Saffron. In 'Trash', Mal ordered Simon/River to stay in their bunk in case Saffron might see them and report both of them to the nearest Alliance Cruiser, but when you go back to OMR, Simon actually does meet Saffron when Zoe calls the whole crew to the Cargo Bay area to meet her.And River meets Saffron in the deleted scene.

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Monday, January 14, 2008 12:30 PM

ZEEK

I think Simon/River didn't come into much contact with her the first time and they were "just passengers" then. However, if she saw them again and remembered they were there before she might get suspicious and pay some attention to them. Then if she did see a warrant it might click with her.

The part I really don't get is why she didn't turn the crew in when they left her to rot at the end of trash. Duran was still alive and could easily identify her as being part of the crime. If we have any sort of similar legal system then she would have to give up mal and the crew or she would face harsher punishment.

Anyway OMR is an awesome episode. The funniest of the series IMO. Even beats out Jaynestown. If I can't hook someone after having them watch Out of Gas and Our Mrs. Reynolds then I know they're never going to like Firefly.

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Monday, January 14, 2008 3:18 PM

SCHOONER

Do you think Saffron actually got arrested afterward? I think there was a report of a Fed cruiser stolen and found later, with the officer unconscious and smiling...

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Monday, January 14, 2008 3:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by schooner:
Do you think Saffron actually got arrested afterward?

Yes; probably during her crazy time. :)

But gorrammit, she's way hot!

--

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Tuesday, January 15, 2008 8:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DomsDaFirda:
The thing that confuses about this episode and the Episode 'Trash' is the connection between Simon/River and Saffron. In 'Trash', Mal ordered Simon/River to stay in their bunk in case Saffron might see them and report both of them to the nearest Alliance Cruiser, but when you go back to OMR, Simon actually does meet Saffron when Zoe calls the whole crew to the Cargo Bay area to meet her.And River meets Saffron in the deleted scene.

From the script, the confusing part was in Trash, just before Zoe decked her, she said get over it, nobody died, right? and then, looking around, asks or did they? where is that old gray haired guy? She remembered Book, but she does not see Simon or River in Trash, so why does she forget meeting them in OMR?
Haven't double checked the actual aired version of this scene for these lines, but the script was weird on that point.

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Thursday, January 17, 2008 3:34 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
From the script, the confusing part was in Trash, just before Zoe decked her, she said get over it, nobody died, right? and then, looking around, asks or did they? where is that old gray haired guy? She remembered Book, but she does not see Simon or River in Trash, so why does she forget meeting them in OMR?
Haven't double checked the actual aired version of this scene for these lines, but the script was weird on that point.

Could be she saw Book as merely a passenger, and not as part of the 'crew'. Same w/ Simon and River.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, January 17, 2008 6:06 AM

Question....hopefully not dumb...
The guys in the room of the net-thing...one says it's junk, just a bunch of spare parts...then the other guy says yeah, but you put it together you got a Firefly, thing'll run forever with a half-decent mechanic (not exact quote )...So what gives with all that? Were they gonna keep it intact or tear it apart...and why tear it apart just to put it together again? Help!

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Thursday, January 17, 2008 8:15 PM

They would capture it to sell as a whole ship, after removing the fried bodies.

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Friday, January 18, 2008 12:43 AM

Thanks JSF. It seems to me a very limited and silly "operation" due to the realities of the enormity of space. How many ships are gonna ever even fly into that thing, unless they have other "agents" like Saffron steering helpless ships into it?

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Friday, January 18, 2008 12:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Thanks JSF. It seems to me a very limited and silly "operation" due to the realities of the enormity of space. How many ships are gonna ever even fly into that thing, unless they have other "agents" like Saffron steering helpless ships into it?

That's exactly what they do. We never see it, but Mal states he will stop by to visit Elder Gorham and repay his helping of Saffron. Saffron has sent many a ship to the net.

When you're stealing entire ships and killing entire crews instead of just small jobs like our BDH do, how often do you really need to sork to stay in business? That's why criminals do it, for the extra free time!

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Friday, January 18, 2008 1:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Thanks JSF. It seems to me a very limited and silly "operation" due to the realities of the enormity of space. How many ships are gonna ever even fly into that thing, unless they have other "agents" like Saffron steering helpless ships into it?

That's exactly what they do. We never see it, but Mal states he will stop by to visit Elder Gorham and repay his helping of Saffron. Saffron has sent many a ship to the net.

When you're stealing entire ships and killing entire crews instead of just small jobs like our BDH do, how often do you really need to sork to stay in business? That's why criminals do it, for the extra free time!

Hmmm....So you're saying that Elder Garmin ran some sort of criminal conspiracy from the planet using "girls waiting to be sold for trade" and all or some were evil-doers like Saffron? Or if it was just Saffron, how many times could she have done it...the "marraige", the deceptions, and then the delivery of the ships? Where did Monty meet her....same place?.. And what about the original bad guys at the beginning, shot by our BDHs...what's their relation to the Elder's or Saffron's enterprise? Also, isn't the Alliance nearby too; they arrived right after Serenity lifted off.

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 2:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

Hmmm....So you're saying that Elder Garmin ran some sort of criminal conspiracy from the planet using "girls waiting to be sold for trade" and all or some were evil-doers like Saffron? Or if it was just Saffron, how many times could she have done it...the "marraige", the deceptions, and then the delivery of the ships? Where did Monty meet her....same place?.. And what about the original bad guys at the beginning, shot by our BDHs...what's their relation to the Elder's or Saffron's enterprise? Also, isn't the Alliance nearby too; they arrived right after Serenity lifted off.

Gotta agree with jewelstaitefan: Elder Gommen (where did ya get Garmin?) ran a scam with Saffron. Or rather, Saffron ran one with him. She may have used him before, but I think Saffron would be smart enough to 'diversify' her crime to be done.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 3:57 AM

First...thanks for the correction on the Elder. I wrote Garmin,'cause it sounded more correct than JSF's Elder Gorham.
Next.. I dunno. You may be right, but I just don't see him doing that. It's clear that Mal & crew know him from the past, & apparently he hadn't betrayed them before. Also I can't believe Saffron would put herself thru that entire ordeal over and over...more likely she got stranded on that rock from some other nefarious adventure (maybe with the bad guys that Mal, Zoe, & Jayne kill in the opening), and saw the Elder's "operation" as a way out by stowing aboard Serenity.

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 11:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

First...thanks for the correction on the Elder. I wrote Garmin,'cause it sounded more correct than JSF's Elder Gorham.

Next.. I dunno. You may be right, but I just don't see him doing that. It's clear that Mal & crew know him from the past, & apparently he hadn't betrayed them before. Also I can't believe Saffron would put herself thru that entire ordeal over and over...more likely she got stranded on that rock from some other nefarious adventure (maybe with the bad guys that Mal, Zoe, & Jayne kill in the opening), and saw the Elder's "operation" as a way out by stowing aboard Serenity.

Gommen's collaboration was in the shooting script:

SAFFRON
How'd you find me?

MAL
Only a few places that shuttle could
make it to from where you left.
Happy to find it intact. You always
work for Elder Gommen?

SAFFRON
I work with lots of folk. He's
thrown me a few choice fish. What'll
become of the dear Elder?

MAL
Oh, he'll be laying eyes on me soon
enough. And to think I saved his
town from vicious bandits.

SAFFRON
(smiling sexily)
You're quite a man, Malcolm Reynolds.
I've waited a long while for someone
good enough to take me down.

As you can see, part of the convo was eventually stripped. So it's entirely possible Joss later decided against this plot line. But "Our Mrs Reynolds" was written solely by himself, so this is, at least, what he originally had in mind.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 11:22 AM

You're either using un-fair inside info or feminine wiles on me.....thanks!

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 11:59 AM

NBZ

About the people Mal and crew gunned down at the start: I am of the opinion they were also swindled by Saffron (maybe via marriage - from what we have seen it is a recurring theme for Saffron.) Hence the lead guy asking for a go with the wife. Or he really was a moron.

As to others who Elder Gommen betrayed not crying foul - that net thing is supposedly lethal.

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 12:01 PM

HUGHFF

The dialogue cut from the final show was in the Visual Companion.

This is the episode that I use when I teach Firefly to my Y9 class.

www.cpfc.org - my life
www.nbhs.school.nz - my work

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 7:48 PM

After reading the script, as posted above, I had gotten the impression that Elder Gommen (thanks for spelling) knew the bandits included an Alliance bigcheese relative, and therefore wanted an outsider (Mal) to do the job, and then would have Saffron eliminate Mal so Elder wouldn't need to worry about Mal coming back in contention over the Alliance relative killing.
The script seemed to make it clear that everything about the Elder's group was staged to get some dope like Mal to do the deed for them - they weren't the honest hardluck people they played.

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Wednesday, February 6, 2008 1:47 PM

SCHOOLBOYSWINK

O.K., so much here I want to say, and to think this isn't even why I clicked on this thread.

First, this is a HI-LARIOUS episode. I have been watching Firefly with my folks (always looking for new converts) when I go to visit, and we watched Disc 2 last night. I never realized how funny that episode was until I watched it with other people so I could hear how much laughing was going one. I always knew it was funny, but not HOW funny.

If IMDB can be believed, this episode is Joss's favorite thing he has ever written, and with good reason.

As for some of the fine points:
1) I doubt Saffron sent TOO many ships into the net. She is not a ship thief per se, she is a con artist, and you can't run the same con too many times before word gets out. I imagine the Net crew have other agents as well, and remember, Mal said it's A net not THE net, while book referred to "some of the newer ones." So it is possible that any given operation might have 4 or 5 in different areas, each within the operating range of 1 or 2 agents. As for Saffron, I doubt she met Monty in this kind of operation. She could have been playing him for anything. Her avoindance of having the deaths of others tied to her name (I didn't kill you; Nobody died; I didn't kill him (the computer guy she ran off with)) leads me to believe that many (most?) of her operations are not as lethal as the Net scam.
2) I don't necessarily accept the Elder Gommen bit as cannon, since it didn't make it into the final show. Granted, a lot of things get cut just for time or clarity, but I have had writing projects where I've turned villains into allies, or even heroes, during the first re-write after the rough draft because of a change in the story or need for different kinds of characters in different roles, or even just a change of heart. Remembering that Firefly is very much about home and family, and making them where you find them, maybe Joss liked the warmth of the bonfire scene with the settlers and didn't want to wreck it by turning them all into crooks (or at least their leaders). That's obviously just speculation; the fact that we can never know Joss's/editor's motives in changing things from the script is why I tend to favor only that which we actually see on the screen.

FINALLY, the reason I opened this thread, and sorry if it's been said fifty times elsewhere. The bit with putting Vera in a spacesuit is unnecessary; guns (at least modern firearms) will shoot just fine in a vacuum. They do need oxygen for the powder to burn, obviously, but what they need is already contained within the chemicals of the gunpowder and inside the casing itself. After all, the slug is sealed tightly enough into the cartridge, if external oxygen was needed, it couldn't get to the site of the reaction quickly enough to support cumbustion even in normal atmosphere. (Thanks to Cecil Adams' "Straight Dope" website on that one. It was something I suspected for a long time, but couldn't confirm until I read it there.)

"When you can't do somethin' smart, do somethin' right!" -Jayne Cobb quotes Shepherd Book

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Wednesday, February 6, 2008 9:51 PM

No matter how much Saff proclaims she has not killed anybody, most viewers understand she is LYING! If not for Jayne and Vera, everybody aboard and including Serenity would be dead, just as she intended. She can claim she didn't kill Durran's chief geek, but Mal nor anybody aboard believes her. I would assume that everybody she claims she didn't kill is in fact somebody she did kill (or valiantly tried to, like BDH). Maybe, like Mal says, she hides behind "set them up to be killed by somebody else", but still it was her doing that killed those people.

How is word going to get out about her killing ships and crews? Everybody is dead! Apparently everybody she worked this scam with succumbed to the net which Vera disabled - so they are all dead, and Elder Gomman gives her another choice fish next time, until out BDH come along.

I will continue to assume that all of her scams are of the lethal variety.

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Thursday, February 7, 2008 1:35 PM

SCHOOLBOYSWINK

First, I have to flatly disagree that Mal doesn't believe her when she claims she didnt kill Durran's computer tech. His response to that line is, "No, I don't imagine there's many you've killed. Just set them up to die easy." That, at least to me, indicates that while he does hold her responsible, he also believes that she didn't kill him herself. (And my point in the previous post was about her killing people PERSONALLY, as I will elaborate further below.)

Still, the point isn't really whether she is lying or not. The point is that she doesn't like having people's deaths on her conscience. If she didn't care, she easily could have killed Mal and Wash while they were unconscious, taken Mal's gun as a precaution and shot Inara in the shuttle entrance, since by then she would have been close enough to make a clean getaway when the shot alerted the crew. Had she done those things, she would have gotten away scott free, but she didn't. I don't mean to say that she isn't responsible for many deaths, but she needs that justification, that layer of direct participation insulating her from the actual killing. She likes playing people, humiliating people, CONNING people, not killing them. That said, I think she herself is the one mark she can never lie to; no matter how many excuses she makes, on some level she knows she is responsible, and I will always think that given the choice between pulling a job where lots of people die and one where nobody dies, she would choose the latter, as long as they didn't threaten her anymore.

Moreover, I don't want my probably more critical point to get lost in this noise, the point which was: She's not a killer or a thief by trade, she is a CON ARTIST. She has a lot more moves in her playbook than running ships into Nets; whatever she had going with Monty had, to me, the feel of a "long con," and the Lassiter is a classic second-story job, cat-burgler work combined with conning her partners in crime. Whether anybody lived to discover her or not, she isn't going to run with the Net crew for very long without either playing them or moving on before they play her. Clearly Serenity was not her first such job, but I still see it (and always will) as something that she'd seen a good opportunity to do a few times, not a standard M.O. that she has repeated ad naseum. If nothing else, she would at the very least get bored with it before that point.

"When you can't do somethin' smart, do somethin' right!" -Jayne Cobb quotes Shepherd Book

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Thursday, February 7, 2008 2:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SchoolboysWink:

First, I have to flatly disagree that Mal doesn't believe her when she claims she didnt kill Durran's computer tech. His response to that line is, "No, I don't imagine there's many you've killed. Just set them up to die easy." That, at least to me, indicates that while he does hold her responsible, he also believes that she didn't kill him herself. (And my point in the previous post was about her killing people PERSONALLY, as I will elaborate further below.)

Still, the point isn't really whether she is lying or not. The point is that she doesn't like having people's deaths on her conscience. If she didn't care, she easily could have killed Mal and Wash while they were unconscious, taken Mal's gun as a precaution and shot Inara in the shuttle entrance, since by then she would have been close enough to make a clean getaway when the shot alerted the crew. Had she done those things, she would have gotten away scott free, but she didn't. I don't mean to say that she isn't responsible for many deaths, but she needs that justification, that layer of direct participation insulating her from the actual killing. She likes playing people, humiliating people, CONNING people, not killing them. That said, I think she herself is the one mark she can never lie to; no matter how many excuses she makes, on some level she knows she is responsible, and I will always think that given the choice between pulling a job where lots of people die and one where nobody dies, she would choose the latter, as long as they didn't threaten her anymore.

Moreover, I don't want my probably more critical point to get lost in this noise, the point which was: She's not a killer or a thief by trade, she is a CON ARTIST. She has a lot more moves in her playbook than running ships into Nets; whatever she had going with Monty had, to me, the feel of a "long con," and the Lassiter is a classic second-story job, cat-burgler work combined with conning her partners in crime. Whether anybody lived to discover her or not, she isn't going to run with the Net crew for very long without either playing them or moving on before they play her. Clearly Serenity was not her first such job, but I still see it (and always will) as something that she'd seen a good opportunity to do a few times, not a standard M.O. that she has repeated ad naseum. If nothing else, she would at the very least get bored with it before that point.

Very well put. And I completely agree. Saffron ain't no killer. It's exactly like you quote: just sets them up to die easy. Saffron, hot and articulate and all, is a con artist. But you can't play a player -- including yourself. :) Even though she tries to convince herself otherwise. Heck, she even turned it into a philosophy: "Everybody plays each other. That's all anybody ever does. We play parts." But saying it and believing it are two different things. We see her quite uncomfortable at:

MAL
No. That ain't it at all. You'da
knocked him on the brain, were that
the case. You don't want him knowing
the truth. Unlike all the -- I'm
gonna go with hundreds -- of men
you've married, you actually want
this one to think well of you after
you've gone.

Part of that was play on her part, too (especially the breakdown in the shuttle, of course); but I reckon part of it was real: given the choice, I think she'd rather just think of herself as a playful hot chick conning a few horny men out of whatever it is she wants, than to face the real, and no doubt often dreadful, conseqences of her actions. The fact that she'd rather not have Durran know what she did is quite telling, IMHO.

P.S. Q: WHY does she want Durran to think well of her? A: Because so very few do! Even though it's based on an illusion, still, it shows that she needs that sort of 'confirmation' to sustain the lie of it to herself.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Friday, February 29, 2008 12:08 AM

DAUGHTEROFDREAMS

For me, I find Saffron to be one of the most intriguing characters of the series. I often wonder about her back story and what led her to becoming such an amazing Con Woman....

We know she had training as a Companion.

So what would make her leave that life which holds the opportunity to earn a lot of money and be part of a dignified and respected (On most civilized worlds) profession?

Did she get bored with the training or find it too restricting? Or did something happen to her while at the Academy?

What do you think?

^_^

___________________________________________________
You can take my hope when you pry it from my cold dead fingers!

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Friday, February 29, 2008 3:18 AM

Maybe they told her to "lose a few pounds" and she got pissed off and side-kicked the oral sex instructor in the head.

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Friday, February 29, 2008 5:01 AM

WASHNWEAR

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Maybe they told her to "lose a few pounds" and she got pissed off and side-kicked the oral sex instructor in the head.

I don't know why, but that's a lot funnier than it ought to be.

It was too much ham for these eggs when we got here!

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Friday, February 29, 2008 6:09 AM

SPACEANJL

I'm actually trying to write a Saffron fic at the moment, and now I have this idea to contend with? No fair.

I'll go with the idea that she has to lie to herself to get by - as long as she doesn't pull the trigger, everything's fine. If she's been 'married' or the like to men who took advantage, she probably despises them.

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Sunday, March 2, 2008 8:50 PM

DAUGHTEROFDREAMS

Lol.

She must be mighty fond of that move then ^_^

When in doubt do violence...

___________________________________________________
You can take my hope when you pry it from my cold dead fingers!

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Sunday, March 2, 2008 8:51 PM

DAUGHTEROFDREAMS

Lol.

She must be mighty fond of that move then ^_^

When in doubt do violence... Worked well for her so far...maybe I should look into that my self

___________________________________________________
You can take my hope when you pry it from my cold dead fingers!

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Sunday, March 2, 2008 10:15 PM

In the course of human history, once a peolpe get a taste of freedom and liberty, it is difficult to convince them to give it up.
Saffron seems to spend much time in the outer worlds, not much Core. Maybe she found that freedom out there, and didn't want to be shackled by the Allaince anymore.
Most RC's would not be able to see this, being regimented and brainwashed from an early age.

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Tuesday, March 4, 2008 11:01 PM

RIVER6213

This show is SO done and is NEVER coming back! Only 1 season and its like gone! You guys are like total losers or something for waiting for a show like this that will NEVER come back.

What is the matter with you?

-River

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Wednesday, March 5, 2008 12:24 AM