Revealing scene in BDM by jewelstaitefan

I'm with HUGHFF on most of this, except

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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Is this also the genesis of his questions for her later, when she is searching for Miranda on the charts, and cocks her gun on him?

I don't think River fighting her subconscious programming is even on the table. She mowed down the bar, alright. Some were more efficient to kill, some weren'nt so she went for just knocking them out. Down is down.

I don't think she could possibly fight this order. Mal's "Are you more than a weapon", to me, is pointed at River's secretive and violent behavior in general. At this point she knocked out Jayne and sneaked out of hiding instead of, say, asking whether they could let her look for a Miranda planet on the Cortex. He's asking her to behave like a person, so they can treat her like one. To me.

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Tuesday, April 1, 2008 2:42 AM

SPACEANJL

The way I see it, River begins to make her own choices when she chooses not to shoot Mal. She recognises him. And Mal doesn't shoot her, and he could.

After this point, River knows that they have the capacity to put her to sleep instantly - she can't let that happen until she's worked out what's going on. That subliminal trigger was designed to flush her out, but it also unlocked a lot of things. She begins to realise that she's not completely crazy after this - that some of her 'dreams' are not hallucinations, but memories.

But it's a great scene, a more intense version of the shoot-out scene in 'War Stories'. That was the point in the series when you began to think 'er,what?' about River. She wasn't the little broken thing anymore.

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Tuesday, April 1, 2008 2:58 AM

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Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
The way I see it, River begins to make her own choices when she chooses not to shoot Mal. She recognises him. And Mal doesn't shoot her, and he could.

I don't think the slight "standoff" was anything more than a artistic licence - Joss (I think from reading the script) had the intent that as soon as they point the weapons at each other, she is put to sleep. This is not really possible in the real world or on screen, so there was a slight pause.

Saying that there IS a parallel between her and Mal - both in the series, the BDM and in the bar fight not sure whether this is artistic licence or not.

In the bar fight, she only seems to go for a weapon once Mal makes his move - to go for a weapon. There is an added urgency in this third part of the sequence.(iirc, this is how Joss depicts the fight in the commentary.)

What level of cooperation she had with her actions is a very good question.

If Simon was not there, IMO Joss would have made her pull the trigger.

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Tuesday, April 1, 2008 3:10 AM

SPACEANJL

She just seems to come into focus more after this scene, to be more in control of herself.

Here's a point. She beat down all those folk who came at her, but the one who actually grabbed her (Jayne) she merely temporarily disabled. My call is for a level of recognition.

But I've lived with the version of the 'Verse in my head for over two years now. And I have some very definite ideas on the who, what and why of things.

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Tuesday, April 1, 2008 3:21 AM

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Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
She just seems to come into focus more after this scene, to be more in control of herself.

Here's a point. She beat down all those folk who came at her, but the one who actually grabbed her (Jayne) she merely temporarily disabled. My call is for a level of recognition.

What would the difference be between disabling and beating down? *g* She knocks him out no more than the guy behind the bar who gets the bottle on his head, so.. even if she did recognize him - and why wouldn't she, the order doesn't affect her knowledge center, right? Just her priorities and actions. - it doesn't mean she gave Jayne or Mal special treatment.

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Tuesday, April 1, 2008 3:24 AM

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Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
My call is for a level of recognition.

I would say recognition of events. And she did not "merely disable" him. She incapacitated him (painfully), then hit him over the head with a table. For the average person, that could have caused serious damage. Thankfully Jayne has a thick skull.

Besides at this point, the third sequence of the fight had started, the one with urgency as Mal was going for a gun - which does imply a certain level of awareness.

None of this really contradicts what you said, but I think there is a subtle difference. I don't think she "fought with herself" (more than she might have been during the rest of the sequence) to not kill Jayne, or not shoot Mal.

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Tuesday, April 1, 2008 12:12 PM

PLATONIST

OK, I'm going to keep this brief because I keep getting booted off, today.

I'd have to go with artistic license at this point, too. This is one of those scenes that is designed to illustrate Mal's continual struggle with River's value as a person (worth saving), rather than River showing a sliver of control, because she is so freaking, obviously out of control, at this juncture. Recognition or not, when triggered, she has no control.

Later, in the next stand-off, he pointedly asks her "are you anything, but a weapon?” another example of Mal’s contemplation on what she is and what to do with her, metaphorically, “slay the Albatross or not?” He chooses not to kill or cast her aside, and eventually reaps the benefits, of having her slay the Reavers, saving his crew, because he is not there with them. She takes control this time, "my turn”.

And Jayne getting slammed in the nuts with the tabletop is hilarious, especially when we see him in the following scene, with the ice pack. And, Wash’s comment, who can forget that.

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Tuesday, April 1, 2008 8:58 PM

River shoots a person with a gun. The target is across the room, she is engaged with ohters in close proximity, she uses a gun being held by another to aim and shoot the opponent across the room (likely fatally), then does not use the gun again - because she is not try8ing to kill everybody.
Every body who touches her gets a body part broken, except Jayne. Jayne has time for an exchange with her, and she does not smash his gonads with the table, but with her hand (Adam said that during filming he told her to handle his package, it's ok, but Summer never would, she just acted like she was), and then smashes the table on (?his head?) to knock him out - she could have easily killed him instead of restraining herself. She was effectively using the standard rules of escalation - other than the people who were running away - using the least effective level of force, and when an opponent raised the level (aiming a gun at her and thinking "kill shot") she then responded in kind.
Artistic license aside, the amount of time it took Simon to speak the "Safe" words was more than enough time to shoot Mal, Simon, the 3 goons from War Stories, and the whole crew of Serenity. It was still a very pregnant pause where River had to restrain herself to not make any of those shots.

My brain was partially missing when i posted yesterday, so I forgot several of the points I had contemplated.
One was that if she is precognitive, and her gun was empty, she knew pulling the trigger would make Mal shoot her, and the only "safe" move would be to lower her gun - but she kept it up, perhaps inviting Mal to kill her without his knowing she was unloaded, or trusting him to let her live.
Also, reading minds would allow her to know that Simon was putting her to sleep, right? If so, she intentionally let him do so, further indication she was fighting her programming.
In the "my turn" scene, she is clearly fighting her programming because she is ready to fight the Alliance forces - likely not a programmed parameter from the Institute.

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Tuesday, April 1, 2008 9:23 PM

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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Every body who touches her gets a body part broken, except Jayne. Jayne has time for an exchange with her, and she does not smash his gonads with the table, but with her hand [...] and then smashes the table on (?his head?) to knock him out - she could have easily killed him instead of restraining herself.

But, as has been said, killing him wasn't necessary. He's pretty effectively out and taking the time to kill him would take more time than that.

I don't think any of this speaks for a conscious restraint.

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Artistic license aside, the amount of time it took Simon to speak the "Safe" words was more than enough time to shoot Mal, Simon, the 3 goons from War Stories, and the whole crew of Serenity. It was still a very pregnant pause where River had to restrain herself to not make any of those shots.

Not really. For all we know, the first few syllables already trigger a readines to receive the phrase, and in the split second before Simon starts speaking, River is probably still busy processing the situation. This is the greatest amount of physical danger she is in, in the entire fight sequence, because this time someone at a distance has the weapon on her and she doesn't have cover. She's good, but she's also human. Maybe she was busy feeling out Mal's readiness to shoot.

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One was that if she is precognitive, and her gun was empty, she knew pulling the trigger would make Mal shoot her, and the only "safe" move would be to lower her gun - but she kept it up, perhaps inviting Mal to kill her without his knowing she was unloaded, or trusting him to let her live.

Why would the gun be empty?

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Also, reading minds would allow her to know that Simon was putting her to sleep, right? If so, she intentionally let him do so, further indication she was fighting her programming.

There is no evidence that River processes other people's thougths and feelings at top speed, especially those more complex than "I point a gun at you!". In "War Stories", she used her physical vision to make out where her opponents are and "did the math". In "Objects in Space", she spends a decent amount of time outside Jubal's reach getting to know him, using personal objects and his ship as guidance. Her reading of the crew take place in choppy sentences she cannot easily put into context, while time passes around her - without her. She cannot read Simon's intention to attack Jubal in time to prevent it, hell it looks like she never saw it coming!
Reading Ruby in "Safe" is not a top-speed process, reading the village leader is also a relatively slow puzzling out of images, rather than a top-speed "You are a murderer" accusation.

River's reading takes its own time, and I doubt she had fully sussed out what he was about to do, like in "Objects in space", with the added factor of possibly not knowing that it could be done. If she had known that tv screens would trigger her, I doubt she would have stared at one, too.

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In the "my turn" scene, she is clearly fighting her programming because she is ready to fight the Alliance forces - likely not a programmed parameter from the Institute.

She's fighting Reavers, there. That's pretty much a positive step no matter what side you're on.

And I doubt that they programmed a "no fighting the Alliance" safety measure into her, considering that the greatest part of the Alliance has no idea her program even exists, making them just as likely targets as anyone else. In fact, I doubt they created a mind-reading super-weapon to use on backwater Independent freedom fighter pockets. She was probably for use within the Alliance, to begin with.

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Tuesday, April 1, 2008 9:42 PM

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:
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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Every body who touches her gets a body part broken, except Jayne. Jayne has time for an exchange with her, and she does not smash his gonads with the table, but with her hand [...] and then smashes the table on (?his head?) to knock him out - she could have easily killed him instead of restraining herself.

But, as has been said, killing him wasn't necessary. He's pretty effectively out and taking the time to kill him would take more time than that.

No. Killing takes less time than non-lethal subduing.

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I don't think any of this speaks for a conscious restraint.

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Artistic license aside, the amount of time it took Simon to speak the "Safe" words was more than enough time to shoot Mal, Simon, the 3 goons from War Stories, and the whole crew of Serenity. It was still a very pregnant pause where River had to restrain herself to not make any of those shots.

Not really. For all we know, the first few syllables already trigger a readines to receive the phrase, and in the split second before Simon starts speaking, River is probably still busy processing the situation. This is the greatest amount of physical danger she is in, in the entire fight sequence, because this time someone at a distance has the weapon on her and she doesn't have cover. She's good, but she's also human. Maybe she was busy feeling out Mal's readiness to shoot.

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One was that if she is precognitive, and her gun was empty, she knew pulling the trigger would make Mal shoot her, and the only "safe" move would be to lower her gun - but she kept it up, perhaps inviting Mal to kill her without his knowing she was unloaded, or trusting him to let her live.

Why would the gun be empty?

Why would she not shoot Mal? What reason? Nobody else could get a gun aimed at her before she took them out, regardless of distance. I don't think anybody even got off any gun shot. Mal had no chance if she was in kill mode and had a round (even without a gun, she would have killed him if she was in kill mode.)

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Also, reading minds would allow her to know that Simon was putting her to sleep, right? If so, she intentionally let him do so, further indication she was fighting her programming.

There is no evidence that River processes other people's thougths and feelings at top speed, especially those more complex than "I point a gun at you!". In "War Stories", she used her physical vision to make out where her opponents are and "did the math".

River's reading takes its own time, and I doubt she had fully sussed out what he was about to do, like in "Objects in space", with the added factor of possibly not knowing that it could be done. If she had known that tv screens would trigger her, I doubt she would have stared at one, too.

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In the "my turn" scene, she is clearly fighting her programming because she is ready to fight the Alliance forces - likely not a programmed parameter from the Institute.

In many eps, River is heavily medictaed, mentally in a fog. After Ariel, and by the time of BDM, her meds are more balanced and she is supposedly less foggy. Her "sussing out" time should be less.

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Tuesday, April 1, 2008 10:17 PM

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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
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Originally posted by AgentRouka:
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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Every body who touches her gets a body part broken, except Jayne. Jayne has time for an exchange with her, and she does not smash his gonads with the table, but with her hand [...] and then smashes the table on (?his head?) to knock him out - she could have easily killed him instead of restraining herself.

But, as has been said, killing him wasn't necessary. He's pretty effectively out and taking the time to kill him would take more time than that.

No. Killing takes less time than non-lethal subduing.

At that moment? Why? How could she have more effectively killed him at that moment, instead of settling for knocking him out?

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Why would the gun be empty?

Why would she not shoot Mal? What reason? Nobody else could get a gun aimed at her before she took them out, regardless of distance. I don't think anybody even got off any gun shot. Mal had no chance if she was in kill mode and had a round (even without a gun, she would have killed him if she was in kill mode.)

Because Mal could just as easily have shot her. We have been arguing that River was not in "Kill" mode, but rather in "disable" mode. We do not see the exact command she is given, so all this "kill" is a big assumption. She kills some, mildly subdues others.

The sequence of the stand-off is not actually all that stretched out. They grab guns, whirl, point, stand and already Simon says the trigger word. River was trying to point the gun at him before he could, but they caught each other simultaneously. New plan necessary. No cover. And she knows Mal is a good shot. One split-second of hesitation doesn't necessarily need to a big explanation about conscious restraint here.

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In many eps, River is heavily medictaed, mentally in a fog. After Ariel, and by the time of BDM, her meds are more balanced and she is supposedly less foggy. Her "sussing out" time should be less.

Post-Ariel, River is calmer, but not necessarily much less foggy. The medications work on and off, as Simon explains, the best example is "Objects in Space" where she suddenly finds a gun in her hand. Most of my examples were, in fact, post-Ariel, notable "War Stories" and "Objects in Space". In fact, even in the movie during the bank heist, her reading takes a few moments until she can point out the trouble-maker. It takes her a few moments to fully place the exact nature of the Reaver attack while a whole bunch of them have already descended on the town. Note her confused look before the Reaver attacks the woman and the horror throws her back.

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 6:23 AM

PLATONIST

Alright, I just checked my Visual Companion and during story time, Zoë asks if anyone was killed during the fight and Mal replies, "It's likely, I know she meant to kill me, 'fore the Doc put her to sleep".

River clearly saw Mal as a mortal threat and pulled the gun creating the dramatic stand-off. She would have shot him. The pause is there to show Mal's hesitation (the look on his face when she falls is one of pity), before Simon starts with the safe phrase.

And Jayne grabs her from behind, making physical contact; she renders him unconscious, suggesting it wasn't a kill order, but a subduing order.

I think stage direction or artistic license, or whatever, is at work here and not an effort to show River having recognition or discretion for Mal or Jayne.

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 6:31 AM

CHRISISALL

Colour me one who thinks her pause is one of resistance to programming, however slight.

Don't make me sleep Chrisisall

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 7:45 AM

MAL4PREZ

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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Every body who touches her gets a body part broken, except Jayne.

This may have something to do with the difficulty of Jayne being on crutches or in a sling for the rest of the movie. That would slowed the plot down just a tad.

I mean really. I love tearing the details apart as much as anyone, but this is a movie. Things have to be done to make it work. Main characters can't have broken bones unless there's a handy Star Trekkian bone mender on hand.

As far as the River/Mal standoff - I always figured she would have shot him, and to be honest, it bugged me. I'd much prefer to think that she was holding herself back, just so the pause isn't two actors waiting for the third to deliver his rather lengthy line. (Couldn't the safe word have just been shorter?)

I like to think Joss is better than that. Oh, but he did have Zoe in War Stories, doing her somersault and then standing there forever right in the line of fire, drawing her guns... That was a similar artistic license moment. (And, I gotta say, a bit lame!)

Anyway, as for evidence that River was holding back - no need to get fancy with precog theories and such. There's that shot of her face when she aims at Mal. What's her expression there? I'm recalling that her eyes are focused, like she's really seeing him. Perhaps she even looks a little freaked as she realizes what she's doing. In the rest of the fight, she's expressionless and cool. If she looks different in this shot, there's your tell-tale.

I'll have to check the DVD tonight, because I can't remember!

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:04 AM

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Originally posted by mal4prez:
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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Every body who touches her gets a body part broken, except Jayne.
This may have something to do with the difficulty of Jayne being on crutches or in a sling for the rest of the movie. That would slowed the plot down just a tad.

There is that, but he did get hit be a table - straight to the face/head. The only reason he was alive after that was because he is crew. ("Zombie" is probably worse than "injured guy on crutches" for firefly.)

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I like to think Joss is better than that. Oh, but he did have Zoe in War Stories, doing her somersault and then standing there forever right in the line of fire, drawing her guns... That was a similar artistic license moment. (And, I gotta say, a bit lame!)

That roll makes me cringe. Here's hoping in the rerelease of Firefly that Jewel Staite mentioned, they do something about it.

On the other hand there is also the (unnecessary) overuse of the number 8 (lucky for some) that some peeps on here uncovered last year... no one is perfect.

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 6:56 PM

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Originally posted by nbz:
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Originally posted by mal4prez:
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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Every body who touches her gets a body part broken, except Jayne.
This may have something to do with the difficulty of Jayne being on crutches or in a sling for the rest of the movie. That would slowed the plot down just a tad.

There is that, but he did get hit be a table - straight to the face/head. The only reason he was alive after that was because he is crew. ("Zombie" is probably worse than "injured guy on crutches" for firefly.)

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I like to think Joss is better than that. Oh, but he did have Zoe in War Stories, doing her somersault and then standing there forever right in the line of fire, drawing her guns... That was a similar artistic license moment. (And, I gotta say, a bit lame!)

That roll makes me cringe. Here's hoping in the rerelease of Firefly that Jewel Staite mentioned, they do something about it.

On the other hand there is also the (unnecessary) overuse of the number 8 (lucky for some) that some peeps on here uncovered last year... no one is perfect.

8 equals luck for Chinese. The Verse is resultant of partially Chinese colonization. Use of 8 (and I think 1 is important also) would be not only reasonable and expected, but unusual if they were absent.

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Friday, April 4, 2008 3:44 AM

No, I think this more personal to Joss than Firefly. I am not talking about the use of 8 in the Firefly culture. The discussion around "8" that was on this board also found similar instances in Angel/Buffy if I remember correctly.

The three I can remember in Firefly are:

1. Time Inara had been on ship
2. How long Simon took to complete his education.
3. How long the Tams had been on board the ship when the BDM took place.

All three cases are 8 months. Not much an of an issue, but the third one has to be fudged when making a Firefly timeline fit. (Either that date, or other dates used in the series)

In earlier drafts of the BDM Miranda also had 8 million residents. Course that would not be lucky...

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Sunday, April 6, 2008 7:31 PM

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Originally posted by nbz:
No, I think this more personal to Joss than Firefly. I am not talking about the use of 8 in the Firefly culture. The discussion around "8" that was on this board also found similar instances in Angel/Buffy if I remember correctly.

The three I can remember in Firefly are:

1. Time Inara had been on ship
2. How long Simon took to complete his education.
3. How long the Tams had been on board the ship when the BDM took place.

All three cases are 8 months. Not much an of an issue, but the third one has to be fudged when making a Firefly timeline fit. (Either that date, or other dates used in the series)

1. - Inara said 8 months in TTJ. Inara also said "a year" in OiS.

3. - BDM script says 8 months from River's escape to Operative at Institute and 8 months Tams on board Serenity.

Only fudging neede is from Inara in Bushwhacked, telling Alliance she was aboard a year - about 6 months before saying the same in OiS.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:45 PM

SHINYGOODGUY

Here's my take on the Bar fight scene: River is triggered and is not fully in control of her actions. Let's go back a ways to the War stories episode. She shot 3 of Niska's goons, she made a decision to help Kaylie and protect Serenity (her new home - OIS ep.) From that episode to the OIS episode it is clear that she was begining to become better and have some level of control over her actions. The Alliance knew the trigger would flush her out but I think there was some level of recognition when she downed Jayne and then when she pointed the gun at the captain. She hesitated, as did the captain. I believe, as someone mentioned before, that she was winning the battle of over her programming. In the split second that it took Simon to utter the safe word she could have taken the shot. The other thing that I concluded from the OIS episode and the BDM is that Mal has already made up his mind to have River and Simon stay as crew members. River has obviously picked up on this. In OIS she and the captain came to an understanding. She showed everyone how clearly she could outthink Jubal, where the rest of them failed miserably. I also believe her ability comes and goes, as her brain slowly overcomes the programming. In the BDM she knocks her brother out with a kick. Later she apologizes to him stating that she wasn't sure he was going to make her sleep. She was either not able to read her brother's mind or her ability has been affected by the programming. By the end of the BDM when she says "my turn" she is responding to the emotion of watching her brother suffer and takes control of her military training and destroys the Reavers. Throughout the series she was struggling against her treatment and by the end she demonstrated more and more control.

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Tuesday, May 27, 2008 12:30 AM

ANDMAN

This may have been mentioned, couldn't cope with assimilating that much at once:

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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Also, reading minds would allow her to know that Simon was putting her to sleep, right?

Wrong, because after River breaks out of the cupboard, and everyone EXCEPT Simon go round the other way, she sees him there, opens the door. They look at each other, and he says "It's gonna be" before she whacks him in the throat. Later on, after everyone's made it onto the bridge safely, she says to him, while everyone else is talking about Miranda, "I had to show them. I didn't know if you were gonna make me sleep."

Now you may say that she would have known when she was triggered, but I doubt it because there's plent of evidence that she's more than capable of mind reading while not triggered. Three straight off the top of my head:
1) Safe - She knows what happened to Ruby, the little girl who doesn't speak
2) OiS - Mal actually says that she knows more than she ought to.
3) BDM - Just after the fight, when they've been talking about what happens, Jayne says "She goes wooly again we're gonna have to put a bullet to her", to which Mal Replies "It's crossed my mind". Joss's big thing about this scene was that River who is handcuffed and lying down behind a sealed door mouths the same words at the same time, demonstrating her mind-reading.

She can mind read at any time, but there's obviously some kind of guidelines to this. It seems entirely possible that in the fight scene, she's using her mind-reading to give her an extra-sensory view of the room around her, which is how she is able to subdue people without looking more than a glance.

And on the whole subject of recognition of people, here's another one for you to suggest it (also kinda kicks out the whole knows what someone's actually doing thing):

When Jayne gets up, River somersaults down the stairs using someone's back, and proceeds to kick someone once, who then stumbles backwards straight into Jayne. River could have easily used much more force to knock Jayne over or something. However she just watches as Jayne catches this someone, and kicks someone behind her. He then runs around her to which she doesn't really care, and then grabs her before she starts to take any kind of real action against him. Now if that's not recognition and fighting of programming you tell me what is.

Anybody who disagrees with any of this violently can do so. But no matter what you do, "You can't take the sky from me".

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Tuesday, May 27, 2008 6:54 PM