I have a question about River .. by gunder

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I have a question about River ..

POSTED BY: GUNDER
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 16:52
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Sunday, April 19, 2009 7:42 PM

Ok, I'm sad to admit that I've just started watching Firefly. I've seen Serenity and I know that it is the ending to the series. In Serenity you see Simon rescuing River from the Alliance and I'm assuming that it is just supposed to be a flash back. However in Firefly, Simon has River in cryostasis or whatever and he talked about having to pay off some people to have her smuggled away from the Alliance. Is this a hiccup in the plot or is there something that I am missing?

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Sunday, April 19, 2009 8:03 PM

THEREALME

I suspect that in the movie, Joss had to explain background for folks who had never seen the series, so he had Simon participate in a daring rescue of his sister. Yes, the Operative was watching a recording of when River was rescued. This would have more drama to have Simon there, personally.

When explaining himself in the Pilot, Simon talked about paying people to get River out.

Those "people" he paid are probably the ones in the movie hovering over the hospital and who dragged the pair up, up, and away. After that ship flew off, River went into the box.

We can say that Simon did not bother to mention his own part in the daring rescue to Mal and the others. This could be because he wanted to be brief, or because he did not want the rest of the crew to see him as a dynamic action guy, in case he had to escape from Mal. After all, it was not like Simon trusted the rest right then.

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Sunday, April 19, 2009 9:19 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

In terms of perfection of continuity, yes there seems to be a difference and you are not mistraken to observe it. However, Simon did not tell our BDHs everything, and there is no purely contradictory evidence to say the Serenity Pilot monologue and the Serenity BDM pre-credit prologue are mutually exclusive. For example, Simon never told anybody about the safe words - least not for the first 8 months.

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Monday, April 20, 2009 2:06 AM

2BY2GINGERBLUE

I believe there was so much more that Simon had to tell. I think he was much stronger and we know he was smart "top 3%" I think if we could have seen more of the series we would have found out he did a lot more to help get River out.

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Monday, April 20, 2009 3:10 AM

STEAMER

What never sat well with me was, if Simon was actually present to spring River, why did he plant her in the box to begin with? Then suddenly I had a facepalm and realised that it was so he could smuggle her across interplanetary borders undetected. :P So my only other burning continuity question is, Mathias told him straight up about the neural stripping, the triggers, conditioning for combat, etc. So in the series, why does Simon state repeatedly that he has no idea what they did to her or if they succeeded?

There is also some cut dialogue from the pilot during Simon's dramatic-revelation scene. Mal asks him how, if he didn't know who did the dirty work, he knew he actually had River on his hands; Simon responds, "I didn't - until you opened that box." Wise cutting choice on Uncle Joss's part.

Calm is River
Scared is Jayne
"I can kill you
With my brain."
FIREFLY

Captain of the New England Browncoats
http://www.myspace.com/nebrowncoats

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Monday, April 20, 2009 4:28 AM

ANOTHERSKY

Neural stripping and combat skillz: inserted for your movie viewing pleasure, if you hadn't seen "Ariel" and came to the movie cold. I, for instance, did, and this helped set up River's under the surface potential (since I missed things like Jayne's shirt and "no power in the verse can stop me")...I therefore play devil's advocate:

First off, TheRealMe nailed Simon's motives.

They're not ENTIRELY anachronistic: Mathias tells him about "neural stripping"-- but that's a pretty vague term--there are different types of neurons all through your brain. Getting the neuroimager to see selective and repetetive stripping of what I can only assume are certain cells in the amygdala from Simon's comments--now he has an idea of WHAT in her brain is messed up.
Although, I would think that screwing up the amygdala to the minor extent they have wouldn't cause her to lose her reality matrix (necessary for "schizophrenia"), because they've done that in baboons, who are then totally useless because their fear of ANYTHING is gone. Their logic tends to go too. And River is obviously, well, fearful and lucid on numerous occasions.

Secondly, in the movie, Simon mentions that he was taught a few safewords (ie Eta khorum nas meckt)in case River was "triggered"--ie taking out everyone in the Maidenhead. So I think he was just a little reluctant to tip the crew off that she might be a "time bomb".

If they "succeeded"--Mathias talks about how far she's come, they quibble over whether she's insane (this is a major side effect), Mathias claims she's well on her way to being used for whatever plans "key members of parliament" have cooked up. Simon doesn't know if he was telling the truth or inflating his success for a "government inspector".

"Until you opened that box"--cryptic, but it could still work. Wondering if he'd been double-crossed, but can't check until out of sight.

Hope that helps.

--
Another Sky

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Monday, April 20, 2009 4:50 AM

BYTEMITE

There's a difference between knowing that Mathias and his "doctors" did some neural stripping, and knowing what specific region of the brain they targetted, why they were doing it, etc.

Mathias did not say outright that it was her amygdala, Simon still had to get a brain scan to figure out the extent of the damage.

Also, I think Simon may have not mentioned his part in her rescue because he wanted the crew to believe his story.

EDIT: Whoops, AnotherSky beat me to it... By like thirty minutes. This is why I should read the entire thread before responding.

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Monday, April 20, 2009 7:43 AM

ANOTHERSKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
There's a difference between knowing that Mathias and his "doctors" did some neural stripping, and knowing what specific region of the brain they targetted, why they were doing it, etc.

Mathias did not say outright that it was her amygdala, Simon still had to get a brain scan to figure out the extent of the damage.

Also, I think Simon may have not mentioned his part in her rescue because he wanted the crew to believe his story.

EDIT: Whoops, AnotherSky beat me to it... By like thirty minutes. This is why I should read the entire thread before responding.

i strike again! i actually did read the whole thread this time...I highly recommend it. But you said it in fewer words.
Please teach me to be concise. :)

Any more questions about the intricacies of the crew? Us veterans are rarin' to go.

--
Another Sky

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Tuesday, April 21, 2009 4:52 PM

SPIRALLEDS

Joss was asked that question at a panel. (I don't have a clue which one, but it was played on one of the Firefly Talk pod casts.)

His response was basically, "Yeah... for the purposes of the movie I kinda had to massage that prior plot point." And I think his self-wank was along the lines of what's been said here - it's quite possible that Simon chose to be an unreliable narrator of his own adventure.

~~~~~~

Writercon. A fanfiction con for fans, by fans.

July 31 - August 2, 2009 at the Radisson Plaza Hotel in Minneapolis, MN.

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