DOLLHOUSE

Dollhouse relationship with Firefly

POSTED BY: KINGDAVID
UPDATED: Monday, April 18, 2011 13:36
SHORT URL: http://bit.ly/eoWx25
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Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:41 AM

KINGDAVID


Perhaps its just my tired brain, but upon watching Epitaph One an hour ago, I can't stop thinking about this. The Rossum Corporation reminds me a lot of the Blue Sun/Alliance. They take people, change their personalities and can change them into whatever they want - most obviously, weapons. They can even make them work with "sleeper" activate codes, as has happened to both River and November. The moral shift of the heads of the Rossum Corporation shown in Epitaph One aren't that different from what the people at the academy. Taking above-average people and doing whatever the highest bidder wants to do to them. Also, both the Rossum Corporation and Blue Sun seem to be above the law - they have officials in every level of government. Perhaps Blue Sun is a future version of Rossum? I'm not necessarily saying Joss intended Dollhouse and Firefly to be in the same universe, but it seems to make sense that a similar sort of technology could affect River in the same way it does the dolls. Doesn't she sort of act like a wiped doll at times? Sort of like she's glitching?

As a final note, the apocalyptic nightmare that the Dollhouse technology brought about seems like a mighty fine reason to set up shop in a different solar system. Intergalactic space travel to an as-of-yet unknown solar system has to at least take 100s of years, and Firefly is only 500 years in the future...

I'm probably overthinking this.


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Thursday, August 27, 2009 7:17 AM

RAHLMACLAREN

"Damn yokels, can't even tell a transport ship ain't got no guns on it." - Jayne Cobb


“Belly up, comrades, and let Korgan flail the bladder for a spell.”

KingDavid, you’re not the only one.

[sings]
"I have a theory. It must be witches...."
[stops singing]

(If it looks like a jarbled mess, I apologize in advance. I’m not an English major.)

Seriously now. I think the Alliance/Blue Sun continued the experiments of the Rossum Corp.
--------------------
Timeline:
-Dollhouse Time- 2009-2019: Imprinting a personality on top of an existing one = brain implosion. The Tech has to wipe before it can print. In later years, all at the same time.

-Between Dollhouse and Firefly: The Tech is either very slowly improved, or destroyed from the Tech Wars on Earth That Was; perpetrators “banished” from the planet(or the other way around(“escaped” for the Actuals)) and then rediscovered, or smuggled onto the colonizing ships.

-Firefly Time- 2517ish: the Tech is still in the experimental stages of safely printing on top of an existing personality.
--------------------

To collect prime candidates for their experiments, BS kept a look out for families with special genes or histories; smarts, strength, or whatever. In the near and far future, records of government institutions (schools, hospitals) would be electronic and networked, so it wouldn't too be hard to search for grade-skipping kids, star athletes, etc.

Simon Tam was a boy genius. BS found this out. According to medical records, Regan Tam was pregnant again. The Tams were wealthy (OR maybe the family became rich AFTER the deal), and could keep secrets (BS might have some kind of dirt on the family to blackmail with). A candidate with a wealthy family (possibly with connections in high places), would provide the subject with security and comfortableness; BS could let them grow up and not have to worry. Just sit back, relax, and wait for any abilities to manifest.

(From “Echoes”)
Leo- “What do they need babies for?”

I think (NOW) that River was Imprinted at birth. BS quietly brought her to a room close by, with the Tech, set up perhaps just moments before (by fast and disguised secret ops guys), and Imprinted her with multiple aspects(such as math, science, physics, brain sponge, etc) or certain curiosities subconsciously (something very small so as not to risk damage to her very delicate brain), that would cause her to achieve little-girl-genius status.

And of course, later at the “Academy”, BS Imprinted the "living weapon" and trigger aspects. Plus the added bonus of stripping her amygdala (feeling filter in her brain) to make her a psychic.

It’s even possible (in the ‘verse) that Simon was a test subject also, but Imprinted with just one aspect (aptitude for med science?). However, I doubt this part, because Simon seems too normal. Then again, River didn’t become crazy until after the experiments at the “Academy”.

Whoa... brain flash. What if Wash was Imprinted with superb eye-hand coordination (perhaps during a "physical" in flight school). That might make him a valuable investment for the Alliance. Valuable enough to possibly put him in a freezer, replace his damaged internal organs (heart, lungs, spine), and jump start him back to life. (‘Cause who wouldn’t want that) And then send him straight to Niska for questioning. (Well, he can't get back too easy, now can he)


I even think(again, NOW) that John Doe (from the tv show; watch it on Hulu) was a victim/test dummy of the Tech. I mean, a man who doesn’t know who he is (except for that small sliver of memory buried deep in the subconscience, that even the tech can’t seem to wipe), but has everything else knowledge wise (pretty much, for the most part) from Govt, business, history, languages, science, etc (just pick a category) “dumped into his coconut”. I know - it's a different show; different ‘verse, but it’s a better theory than the JD creators had.

Edited Stuff

--------------------------------------------------
Find here the Serenity you seek. -Tara Maclay

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Sunday, October 4, 2009 7:35 PM

ANOTHERSKY


Interesting theory and timeline. I've not seen much of Dollhouse but I am sure that Joss was not about to give up on such an idea and have had musings along the same lines. But I think they don't develop in the same timeline, more like alternate timelines, in separate 'verses. Definitely a similar theme, though. I'm curious about Rossum Corp and the details of their imprinting process...gonna write me my representative some.

I like the theoretical firefly backstory--the Tam parents(I have long suspected things like blackmail and high-up mucky mucks), even Wash sounds interesting. Someone with such abilities might just attract more notice than rim-world merchants looking for a crack pilot.
Another possibility for River is that she was just an omnibus prodigy (they do exist), before the Academy got to her. After...
Speaking of imprinting, someone mentioned scars on her upper arms--scientists are now figuring out how to "imprint" temporary strength and muscle memory via electrodes, so 500 years might not be a stretch.

Wonder if our Earth-That-Was just got a bit too uncertain?













Going for a ride.

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Tuesday, February 2, 2010 2:13 PM

1EYEDCAT


I see deep connections between Firefly and Dollhouse, with Whedon reworking many of the same themes. So, in addition to the mind manipulation theme, in Firefly, Serenity is a haven, on the outskirts of society and the law, for people who have reason to escape, presided over by a strong, paternalistic figure. Much the same can be said about the Dollhouse, but with much greater moral ambiguity.

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Tuesday, February 2, 2010 2:46 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Good conspiracy theory.


Manlove, er, evil smirk

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Tuesday, February 2, 2010 3:02 PM

BYTEMITE


Definitely exploring similar themes, but same timeline? Nah. That's like saying that Buffy and Angel have the same timeline as Firefly and Dollhouse. Maybe, but it's really unlikely.

Besides, we know roughly why they left Earth in Firefly. "Got used up," which is confirmed three times in the series, the two introductions and once in the shadow puppet show: "swollen of her, they left". Also, in the shadow puppet show, it mentions something about raining fire. Which says to me either war or really bad pollution. And at the very end of the shadow puppet show, it's indicated that whatever people did, it pretty much destroyed the Earth itself, or at least any capacity it has to support life.

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Tuesday, February 2, 2010 3:31 PM

GWEK


I definitely see similarities between the two series, although I think they're thematic rather than literal. Check out my thread where I posit that Joss may have been using DOLLHOUSE as a "clearinghouse" for FIREFLY ideas:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=2&t=41213



www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Tuesday, February 2, 2010 4:06 PM

BYTEMITE


That I do agree with. There's a lot being explored here about mind control, and even scenes that I could imagine being used variously for Firefly.

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Tuesday, February 2, 2010 4:27 PM

GWEK


To be honest (as I think I may say in my thread), when I got to the end of the episode before HOLLOW MEN, I wondered if one possible finale Joss had considered for FIREFLY went something like this:

By season seven, the crew has decided to go on the offensive against Blue Sun. Turns out the only way to take it down is by taking out the directors who control it--but River is the only one who knows who they are (thanks to her psychic abilities). Unfortunately, those memories are buried (yet another secret burning up River Tam's mind). When the finally unearth the secret, the Big Bad pulling all the strings is none other than Derrial Book... who happens to have been watching over River because she's special and he needs her for his endgame.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Tuesday, February 2, 2010 4:44 PM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by GWEK:
To be honest (as I think I may say in my thread), when I got to the end of the episode before HOLLOW MEN, I wondered if one possible finale Joss had considered for FIREFLY went something like this:

By season seven, the crew has decided to go on the offensive against Blue Sun. Turns out the only way to take it down is by taking out the directors who control it--but River is the only one who knows who they are (thanks to her psychic abilities). Unfortunately, those memories are buried (yet another secret burning up River Tam's mind). When the finally unearth the secret, the Big Bad pulling all the strings is none other than Derrial Book... who happens to have been watching over River because she's special and he needs her for his endgame.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."



except didn't Book board the ship before Simon arrived?

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Tuesday, February 2, 2010 4:51 PM

GWEK


Right, because he brilliantly knew exactly what TYPE of ship (and crew) Simon would be looking for. :)

Look, just go with it--it'd be a cool scene! :P

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Tuesday, February 2, 2010 5:17 PM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN


lol hey, what the hell, right? you could fanwank it...we never actually saw simon make the deal, so maybe he met up with kaylee, then took off to show wash where the box was at, and THEN kaylee called book Grandpa ;)

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Tuesday, February 2, 2010 5:35 PM

GWEK


If Joss can reverse-engineer Simon into River's rescue (which completely undercuts his character development and who he was at the time), why not?

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Tuesday, February 2, 2010 6:18 PM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by GWEK:
If Joss can reverse-engineer Simon into River's rescue (which completely undercuts his character development and who he was at the time), why not?

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."



you know,I've heard other people say that, but my first time viewing the series it made perfect sense to me that Simon did that. It still did after repeated viewings. It did for my bro as of this morning too (he just woke up at 5am to watch the movie after blowing thru the series the past two days - yay!). and obviously Joss was more than comfortable with it, so I'ma go ahead and disagree with you here ;) (but always with respect)

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Tuesday, February 2, 2010 6:40 PM

GWEK


Joss said that he only did it because he had to do it to make the movie work.

I don't doubt Simon's motivations, but the Simon that we see at the beginning of the series (indeed, quite possibly the Simon we see at the END of the series) would not be capable of pulling it off. Also, while Simon could have been lying, it directly contradicts what information that we have in the series.

In the context of the movie, I buy it. In the context of the overall FIREFLY canon... not so much.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Tuesday, February 2, 2010 7:23 PM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN


Ha, well at the risk of derailing the thread - does that bother anyone here? - my take is
Quote:

Originally posted by GWEK:
Joss said that he only did it because he had to do it to make the movie work.



True, but he also said he was comfortable with the "fan-wank", didn't have a problem with it while he was writing it, and didn't think it conflicted with Simon's characterization (familiar with the Q&A you're referencing although it has been awhile since I read it). Comfortable enough he was willing to put it in the first feature film he ever directed about his "baby"!

Quote:

I don't doubt Simon's motivations, but the Simon that we see at the beginning of the series (indeed, quite possibly the Simon we see at the END of the series) would not be capable of pulling it off.


Disagree (respectfully) with this here too...in the very first episode, he's on the run from his own government with massively valuable "property" stolen from this all-powerful government/military, picks a ship on a border planet "because it looks disreputable" (in the orig. script), and later proceeds to threaten the ship's unhinged captain (while there are guns drawn on him), then FLINGS himself off a 12 foot railing onto an armed federal agent, and at the end of the ep...is still remarkably composed, willing to face said unhinged captain head on, and all with his baby sister as his primary concern. Later in just the fourth episode, he willingly climbs up on a stake surrounded by batshiat insane villagers, to be BURNED ALIVE with his sister (after unsuccessfully trying to face them down/fight them off - a whole village). We also know that before he even got on the ship, he had willingly left his family, entered "blackout zones" (which sound like the kind of places normal people usually avoid like hell), worked with anti-government revolutionaries, gave almost all his fortune to them, while keeping everything hidden from his friends (if he had any), family, co-workers and his employers....this is a guy who at the time of the rescue, would have had absolutely nothing to lose, and nothing to gain but getting his sister. He's obviously not particularly trusting (or dumb) so it makes sense he would be agreeable to going in himself and not allowing someone to retrieve her without him. It also makes sense that the "underground movement" wouldn't want to risk one of their own (who might potentially have a lot of intel on them that could be gotten if they'd been caught) to be caught in there - they've got Simon's money, probably coached him some, told him what he needed to know, and not much else, and so they sent HIM in. And if he made it out they'd get him out and if not...well. They probably had other anti-gov projects they were working on too (was looking fwd to finding out more about them, eventually). He used non-lethal force in the rescue too - which I think may be the sticking point with Simon, although he was pretty quick to take up arms on the irritable captain's behalf in War Stories, and willing to come up with a plan to jump a bunch of armed thugs even earlier then that, in Shindig. It also all explains how he was able to come up with such a detailed and security-bypassing plan in Ariel - almost like he already knew what he was doing, no?

Quote:

Also, while Simon could have been lying, it directly contradicts what information that we have in the series.


In the series, the only time he was "lying" was in the pilot when he was explaining his story to - what was to him - a bunch of criminals. Who didn't like him. There was plenty of room between the lines there, that wouldn't even necessitate him lying. Just mental reservation. And as far as River being psychic was concerned, even assuming he DIDN'T have some idea what was done to her (which I obviously reject) you really think he could have spent all that time with her, alone with her, and NOT known she was picking shiat up she had no way else of knowing? Again, Simon IS a genius (even a non-genius would figure it out) so I seriously doubt that he didn't know. Him not expounding on it to the rest of the crew, however (especially with Jayne who outright and openly hated them, Zoe who was willing to kill them on the Captain's behalf, and Mal who's moods shifted like the wind) also makes perfect sense. From his perspective, that would be too dangerous to River. And Mal, the hyper anti-Alliance Browncoat, might decide to "use" her talents and put her in harms way...just like the Alliance tried to, and just like he did in Serenity, eh? Plus Simon knew that safeword for her...

Quote:

In the context of the movie, I buy it. In the context of the overall FIREFLY canon... not so much.


LOL so one of the interesting things about Firefly is how rich it is, and how rich it's characters are - just like real people, they are so open to interpretation - and maybe all things are true. To me, Simon makes less sense WITHOUT the clarification Joss provided in the film - to you, it doesn't make sense at all (in the greater context). We can totally agree to disagree, but hope you enjoyed the...thesis, holy hell I wrote a lot, didn't I? LOL That's what a Schiltz on a snowy night will do for ya;p


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Saturday, April 16, 2011 4:04 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1eyedcat:
I see deep connections between Firefly and Dollhouse, with Whedon reworking many of the same themes. So, in addition to the mind manipulation theme, in Firefly, Serenity is a haven, on the outskirts of society and the law, for people who have reason to escape, presided over by a strong, paternalistic figure. Much the same can be said about the Dollhouse, but with much greater moral ambiguity.


Consider this, while casting aside the timeline:
There has been much discussion regarding Inara's reasons for boarding Serenity, and leaving Madrassa House. Would Inara in our time have volunteered for a Dollhouse contract?
Opinions?
Or expanded rationale?
Or should this be a seperate thread?

On the other hand, would any of the actives have tried to signal their brother in code to "help me" as River does at The Institute?

And would any of the actives Not have accepted an enrollment invitation to The Institute?

Can Topher implant a psychic talent/skill/sense into an active? Make a strong suggestion toward this goal?

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Saturday, April 16, 2011 5:18 AM

BYTEMITE


I definitely see hints of possible thematic connections between the Guild and the Dollhouse.

Blue Sun is meant to be Rossum, so unless there's a connection to Blue Sun the Guild might not be all bad. However, I suspect there's aspects of it that aren't good, either, and Joss would've explored exploitation thematically through the Guild. Each companions' experience might be very case by case.

The two ideas that Dollhouse "actives" explore, the hyper competent and skilled side and the side that's sold out to rich men, seems to be split between River and Inara respectively. It's not impossible, though I doubt Inara went through anything near what River did.

On the other hand, in OMR Saffron is suggested to be a twisted version of a companion. Inara says that Saffron has been trained by "the Academy" and doesn't specify that she means the "Companion Academy." It's possible that when companions aren't training at their Guild houses, they have to take liberal education courses (Alliance indoctrination and monitoring), and it's at the same Academy River went to.

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Saturday, April 16, 2011 6:00 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


There's another connection between Blue Sun and Rossum Corp.

In the recently discovered unbroadcast episodes of both FF and DH, one character was named Dick Cheney.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Target_(Dollhouse)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Most_Dangerous_Game

Quote:

Dick Cheney's Dollhouse

Given his many mishaps, I was in a charitable mood when I went to hear the man speak on Monday. He looked positively rosy, well-fed and had virtually no wrinkles on his face, even at close range. The cares that someone like him ought to have were not reflected in Dick Cheney's face.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,557670,00.html



Psychopaths don't have lines on their face, because they have no emotions to express. They also have no problem sleeping because they never have dreams nor nightmares.
youtube.com/watch?v=KlMwYoEScbE

Quote:

The Most Dangerous Game with Robert Hansen

Robert Hansen, a serial killer who was active in the early 1980s, would kidnap women and then release them in the Knik River Valley in Alaska. He would then hunt them, armed with a knife and a Ruger Mini-14 rifle. He worked as an assistant drill instructor at a police academy in Pocahontas, Iowa. He even broke several records, documented in the Pope & Young's book of world hunting records. On June 13, 1983, 17 year old Cindy Paulson went to the police after escaping from the cockpit of Hansen's Piper Super Cub, a set of handcuffs still dangling from one wrist. She told police that she had been offered $200 to pose for pictures before being abducted, raped, and sexually assaulted with the wooden handle of a hammer. She stated that she had worked one cuff loose, then fled on foot from the airplane's cockpit when Hansen was distracted while loading supplies. She claimed to have eluded Hansen until she was picked up by a passing truck on a nearby road and taken to the police. Supported by Paulson's testimony, Flothe and the police secured a warrant and searched Hansen's house on October 27, 1983, uncovering jewelry belonging to the victims, newspaper clippings about the murders and an array of firearms — including a semi-automatic .223-caliber Ruger Mini-14 rifle. They theorized that he began killing prostitutes around 1979. After paying a woman for her services, he would kidnap, torture, and rape her. He would then bind her and fly her out to his cabin in the Knik River Valley in his private airplane. Once he had found a suitably desolate location, he would release his victim on a river sandbar, stalk her and then kill her with a hunting knife or the Ruger carbine as she fled through the woods. When ballistics tests returned a match between bullets found at the crime scenes and Hansen's rifle, he entered into a plea bargain. He pled guilty to the four homicides the police knew about and provided details about his other victims in return for serving his sentence in a federal prison along with no publicity in the press. He confirmed the police theory of how the women were abducted, adding that he would sometimes let a potential victim go if she convinced him that she wouldn't report him to police, and indicated that he began killing as early as 1973. He showed investigators 17 gravesites in the Knik River Valley, 12 of which were unknown to the police. 11 remains of a probable 21 victims were exhumed by the police and returned to their families.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Most_Dangerous_Game
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hansen



The Most Dangerous Game with Dick Cheney...
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=the+most+dange
rous+game+cathy+o'brien

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Monday, April 18, 2011 1:36 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Yeah, I see similar themes, but I don't think they're in the same verse.

As for Simon, I think that the series explanation for River's rescue makes more sense than the movie explanation, but that isn't one of the big problems I have with the movie, however it does highlight, to me, the fact that the movie is an imperfect specimen and should be taken with a grain of large-grained salt.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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