FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Firefly Feminism. 'Pedestalled?'

POSTED BY: BYTEMITE
UPDATED: Thursday, January 21, 2010 05:24
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Friday, October 16, 2009 1:31 PM

BYTEMITE


Just an interesting side topic that got started in another thread here that I thought warranted further discussion.

I think there's definitely good points here about Joss Whedon feminism and putting ladies on a pedestal, but also part of what I love about the Firefly girls is that they feel very real to me.

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Originally posted by Niki2:
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Finally, for all of Joss Whedon's feminist cred, his concepts easily fall into exploitation rather than empowerment. He often falls into the trap of trying to put the women on a pedestal, rather than portraying them as real in all their strengths and flaws. And that is a form of marginalization (read Simone de Beauvoir). Dollhouse's treatment of its women is very shallow, unlike, say, Dark Angel.
The final season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer almost made me gag, the way Buffy turned into a selfish, deluded, stupid, self-righteous bitch. This is why Faith and Willow were always so much more interesting than Buffy.



Found that very interesting--in that I never liked Buffy (because I thought those adjectives described her perfectly for eight years), but loved the show. And I admit all of the female characters in Firefly might well come under the same description: pedastalled.



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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Interesting. All of them?

River perhaps might be "pedastalled." Hurt dark waifishly ethereal girl who can kick ass is probably someone's female fantasy.

Zoe's attitude and strength is as well, I think Wash pretty much sums up that angle.

But Kaylee and Inara...? While both are attractive, even drop-dead gorgeous, I also always got "just a regular girl" vibes from them, where Kaylee is the tom-boy and Inara is the lip-stick and high-heels girl.

And I've also always thought that Inara was about deconstructing pedestals. She's introduced as a character who is arguably higher on the social totem pole than anyone except the Tams before the Academy, but she's also shown to be "one of the gang." The only character who resists that inclusion is Mal, who does put her on a pedestal in a way that I think is meant to illustrate how foolish his behaviour is.

Kaylee too, yeah she's a little harsh on Simon now and then, but I thought one of the themes there was to get Simon to loosen up. Respect, but without being ridiculous or condescending.



Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
As to Inara and Kaylee--to me, Inara is about as "pedastalled" as anyone could possibly be. The untouchable goddess. And Kaylee's ability to work miracles with Serenity...that's not put on a pedastal? What I saw, in both Firefly AND Buffy, was the men screwing up, but rarely the women. The men did stupid stuff, the women made cracks about it (along with others of the men)...but the women rarely made dumb mistakes.

That's just my opinion.



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Originally posted by Storymark:
Wait.... miracle worker Engineers who always fix the ship are pretty much a staple of the genre. Why is no one complaining about Scotty being on a pedestal?




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Originally posted by Bytemite:
I think the women did make mistakes. Wash is rightfully pissed at Zoe in War Stories for her non-support, which actually causes the main problem in the episode. River has some tendencies to wander off and cause problems, though after the Reaver massacre, that probably won't feature as much with her. Inara has shown some extremely poor judgment in regards to clients, and also made what I think was a mistake in deciding to leave, though I can understand why she did. Kaylee... Okay, I can't actually think of any times where Kaylee made any mistakes, except that one time when she gets pissed at Simon and starts flirting with Tracy, but that was really minor. Kaylee has, however, shown some naivety and lapses in judgment that I suspect would have gotten her in trouble eventually.

Do the men make mistakes MORE OFTEN? Probably. It could be possible that it's harder for the average audience to laugh at women making mistakes than it is men, because perhaps audiences tend to see women as more vulnerable. Most of the time when the men make mistakes in Firefly, it's played for laughs.



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Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Wash can also work miracles with Serenity, though from the pilot's chair rather than the engine room. Kaylee is touchy and emotional, which does call attention to Simon putting his foot in his mouth, but neither of them is in the right most of the time. And it's rather amusing to me that you would call someone who gets paid for physical intimacy, among other things, untouchable. Inara isn't untouchable, she's closed off. So is Mal. Neither of them is willing to just come out and say what they're feeling because they have huge blocks around it. They're two of the most fallible characters on the show for this reason. Zoe might be the most 'pedestalled' of the bunch, but she also clearly has her flaws. Her split loyalty can and has caused tension in her marriage, and she's not very good at talking things through when she's upset, as shown by her reaction to Saffron, among other things. Yeah, Mal gets beat up on a lot, but he also saves the day and does the right thing. Jayne kind of bumbles around a bit and messes up, but you definitely want him in a fight and sometimes he can save the day and do the right thing... sometimes. Simon puts his foot in his mouth, but he also fixes people and saves the day. And Wash... well, he saved the day numerous times. He would occasionally argue with his wife and was ambivalent about children, but even with one engine and 20% power the man could land a giant spaceship without seriously injuring anybody. So if you're going to talk about characters on a pedestal, he needs to be included there, too.



What do you all think?


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Saturday, October 17, 2009 2:27 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Interesting to hear these different opinions, missed this thread.

I personally think Joss reveres women somewhat, and that this comes across in firefly. Almost lazy writing it seems to me sometimes; the woman is right in the argument... because duh, she's the woman! When the real right and wrong of things is a bit more murky.

Heads should roll

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Saturday, October 17, 2009 11:01 PM

RIVERDANCER


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
the woman is right in the argument... because duh, she's the woman!


Was Zoe right to not support or at least be honest with her husband? Was Kaylee right to get defensive and pointedly leave Simon alone in a bar on Canton where he could get his face smashed in, rather than talking to him? Was she right to put off talking to him until after he'd gotten said face-smashing? Was Inara right when she made arguments to Mal about why she might stay on Persephone with Atherton, or was she arguing more out of spite than anything? Was River 'right' in her cussing and hurling about of things? Was Mrs. Tam right when arguing with Simon about River? Was Zoe right in her initial opinion of Serenity? Was Kaylee right to leave the Engine room a mess of wires? Was Inara necessarily right to blame Mal entirely for the backwater worlds they'd been frequenting? Was River right when she went after jayne with a knife? Was Patience right to shoot Mal, twice, over her own greed?
While their were instances of men being somewhat in the wrong, I'm having some trouble coming up with any situation where the woman was totally right and the man was totally wrong, and that's just how it was because she was she and he was he. If you have something specific in mind, do please elaborate.

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Sunday, October 18, 2009 3:16 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

I'm having some trouble coming up with any situation where the woman was totally right and the man was totally wrong, and that's just how it was because she was she and he was he.


How about the storyline in the message where Simon is so blunderous and insensitive with Kaylee that she becomes estranged and alienated for the rest of the episode, shooting down his attempts at reconciliation and even going off with another guy that she's only just met. There is no question that she is over-reacting or even acting like a bitch... because no, she is the woman. It is all Simon's fault.

Heads should roll

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Sunday, October 18, 2009 5:36 AM

BYTEMITE


And she's so totally right that she also almost gets abducted and/or shot by the guy she was flirting with to make Simon jealous.

Kaylee judgment for the lose.

Also: Bester. Really? Girl, please find some standards ASAP.

My perception has always been that Zoe shows Simon what goes for sympathy around the ship, rather than being pissed at him for hurting their mei mei.

River's reaction to Kaylee being mad at Simon is pure little sister. The rest of them don't particularly seem to care one way or another. They don't pass judgment on who's right or wrong in this case, so I don't think the audience is really intended to.

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Sunday, October 18, 2009 6:38 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I *DO* think Joss tends to worship women. He seems to be perpetually in awe of the amazing power of adolescent girls and young women, something I think he probably first witnessed in middle school, and has never really gotten past. In fact, he's built up that power and multiplied and magnified it, until in him mind, young girls are super-beings. And he's not far wrong, is he? All the world falls at the feet of beautiful 18 or 20 year-olds, yes? If they don't have the physical abilities themselves to slay dragons and demons, they at least have the physical attributes to inspire others to do so for them. And it's been so since at least the days of Helen of Troy, or so they say...

Mike

Let the wild rumpus start!

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Sunday, October 18, 2009 8:03 AM

ASARIAN


*Caveat lector* some perhaps not all too kind analysis ahead.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I *DO* think Joss tends to worship women. He seems to be perpetually in awe of the amazing power of adolescent girls and young women, something I think he probably first witnessed in middle school, and has never really gotten past. In fact, he's built up that power and multiplied and magnified it, until in him mind, young girls are super-beings. And he's not far wrong, is he? All the world falls at the feet of beautiful 18 or 20 year-olds, yes?


Well, that's probably exactly what's a bit fishy about calling it 'feminism.' Who doesn't like beautiful 18-20 year-olds? (Remember sexy, feisty Annie? LOL). In the end, though, if you respect young women for their body, you really don't respect them at all (unless revering a hot piece of meat is somehow respectful). In a way such 'feminism' is actually a childish form of courtship, really: not mature enough to tell 'em directly that you think they're hawt, so instead you put them on a pedastel, and thus indirectly 'say' it.

In my own example of Annie (Heroes), I thought she was very sexy. I wouldn't put her on a pedastel for it, though, or ascribe feelings of respect towards her, or call myself a feminist because of it. It just meant I thought she was hot. :) I do respect women, btw; and I would certainly call myself a feminist, in that I am a huge proponent of equality between the sexes. But, to me, respecting young women because they're enchantingly gorgeous is just silly. For me, the two are simply unrelated. Eliza Dushku is a good example, IMHO, of Joss probably ascribing more/better acting skills to a young women than she, in fact, has: just because she's hot. I mean, you can push women to the foreground, give 'em ass-kicking roles, walking around the set half-nekkid; and you could try and sell is as feminism, saying you like to see and promote strong women. And I'm sure there be enough folks who actually buy it -- I'm just not one of them. :)


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sunday, October 18, 2009 9:47 AM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN


Hi, first time poster, long time lurker here, but I've been seeing a lot of discussion lately about Joss's feminism and Firefly, and thought I'd jump in.

Joss stated pretty clearly somewhere (and forgive me for not remembering if it was a speech or on a commentary) that he likes to write women's strengths and men's weaknesses, and partly he does that because its so rare to see in television. So its partially correct to see women as somewhat "pedestalled" in his work. However, one of the things that Joss is good at is making women fully-fleshed out characters, rather then the caricatures or two-dimensional creatures we usually find. He does the same for male characters as well. And the women in Firefly have plenty of flaws, and KPO brought up a good point with the Kaylee/Simon dynamic. I think the "Simon is a jerk" thing that came about after he flubbed his compliment to her in the cow scene was more of a reaction from fans, that I noticed, b/c if you actually go back and watch the scene, it's sooo obvious that he is sincerely trying to pay her a compliment, he just got put on the spot a bit and flubbed it. I mean, his tone, his body language, everything about that was so clear that he was nervous but really genuinely trying....and for someone who supposedly has such a high E.Q. as Kaylee, her reaction was a total biatch-out. I think that may have been Joss's way of showing us - yeah, Kaylee has her flaws - immaturity, drama queen, and she's got a total biatch side to her. Which is great, because NO ONE is THAT nice, including Kaylee.

And Inara is as flawed as Mal, emotionally, and in the exact same areas. Zoe its harder to say because I never felt like we got nearly enough of Zoe.

Also, that whole thing about women's looks being power is a load of crap, pardon my bluntness. Power is power, if you have to use your body or looks to get what you want that's not power - if you had the power you'd get it without having to resort to using your body and putting yourself in that kind of danger. And liking the way a woman looks has nothing to do with respect - often it has exactly the opposite effect.

Anywho, that's my two cents worth! Interesting discussion.

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Sunday, October 18, 2009 10:27 AM

BYTEMITE


Hey, nice to meet you.

For someone so stoic, Zoe got a lot of lines, and if not lines, then camera cuts to her reactions. I would actually say we got a lot of her in a sense, she got plenty of wry jokes and roll-eyes at Mal's expense, and practical ideas and advice. Which might be an argument FOR the pedestalled thing, and I think if anyone could be considered pedestalled in the show, it might be Zoe.

On the other hand, Zoe is particularly hard to read, and therefore might feel more untouchable badass to us fans because she was so reserved with her emotions. Even in War Stories, when she's alarmed seeing Wash tortured, we FEEL she's alarmed, we see it in her eyes and how she supports Wash down the hallway, but she keeps it clamped down tight. Does she blame herself? Surely she must, but she doesn't bring it up.

Perhaps that's another thing that might lead to the pedastalled perception; Firefly never lingered very long on the mistakes the women made. They were more implied, while the men really got hammered with jokes about their mistakes (like with Saffron, and Saffron AGAIN... Actually, now that I think about it, Mal had a higher percentage of humdingers than ANYONE).

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Sunday, October 18, 2009 2:42 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

They don't pass judgment on who's right or wrong in this case

Well, they don't pass judgement on Kaylee. You're right to bring up Zoe and River as the two people who provide commentary on the situation, interpreting it for us. They put some blame on Simon, as does Simon himself. Nobody ever provides commentary for Kaylee's over-reacting or arguably acting like a bitch though (in this or other episodes). Is her bitchy behaviour nothing out of the ordinary, that it doesn't require commentary/interpreting? This is how we are to expect women to behave? Because that's not very feminist.

My theory is that Joss tends to place women above blame a little bit - in his mind they are justified to act how they please... and this leads to some occasional bad writing.

Heads should roll

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Sunday, October 18, 2009 3:42 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

until in him mind, young girls are super-beings. And he's not far wrong, is he? All the world falls at the feet of beautiful 18 or 20 year-olds, yes?


Haha. All right, he's in awe of nubile female beauty, like a lot of men. I think what's special about Joss is that he finds powerful women *especially* hot. And that's what he seeks to represent, why he gives his female characters special abilities/powers. I don't especially mind this (kick-ass babes have their charm, though in the end probably not my type), but when one of Joss's strong female characters acts like a bitch I'm always going to find it off-putting, I'm not so in awe of her pretty face and strong character that I think she can act how she likes.

For a bit of reference, I do like the idea of women in art being portrayed as 'higher' creatures, and men being comparitively earthy and flawed (like Mal), but as a writer I would approach this theme with women who have powers along the lines of empathy/healing/spirituality - not physical ability, which doesn't do much for me in terms of what I think is real 'higher' feminine beauty.

Heads should roll

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Sunday, October 18, 2009 3:46 PM

BYTEMITE


Huh. Well, I don't really see Zoe as putting blame on Simon. As ever, Zoe is hard to read, but her demeanor doesn't even say "you shouldn't have done that" or "I can't believe you" or even "idiot". I seem to recall Zoe actually kind of puts her arm around Simon, and she seems more to be smiling, not in a mocking way, but sympathetic and understanding.

The only person who acts angry/overreacts seems to be Kaylee.

River, being a younger sister, pretty much has to think her older brother is always an idiot, even though they have a pretty good relationship, and takes that particular moment to comment on her perception.

But you have a point about no one making any comment about Kaylee and how her actions are inappropriate... Let's see. Kaylee complains to Inara... But never seems to explain fully what happened. I suspect Inara would probably take Kaylee's side.

...You know, now that I think about it, there's some scenes after Kaylee gives Simon the cold shoulder (like in the scene with Inara), just before Tracy shows up, where Kaylee seems particularly glum. Could it be Kaylee actually feels bad about how she reacted?

But again, no one else seems to particularly care that is Kaylee is upset with Simon. In Jaynestown, Mal seems extremely amused when Kaylee gets mad, I always thought that was because Mal doesn't particularly like Simon, but maybe there's something deeper than that. Did they expect it?

Or, if not, is there something in Kaylee's past that explains her overreaction? Kaylee seems to have a bit of an inferiority complex about being poor and coming from the Rim. Where might that come from?

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Sunday, October 18, 2009 4:18 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Huh. Well, I don't really see Zoe as putting blame on Simon. As ever, Zoe is hard to read, but her demeanor doesn't even say "you shouldn't have done that" or "I can't believe you" or even "idiot". I seem to recall Zoe actually kind of puts her arm around Simon, and she seems more to be smiling, not in a mocking way, but sympathetic and understanding.


The commentary, from Zoe and River, is that Simon is awkward and socially unadept, especially when dealing with women; and that is the explanation for the bust up (I can't remember Joss's DVD commentary on the situation but I'm guessing it is much the same - I'll be surprised if he talks about any special insights into Kaylee's flawed character). As an audience watching human confict on TV you require this kind of writer's commentary, framing who is the good guy and who is the bad guy (because you know, even a bad guy is righteous in their own mind and will behave like it). And sometimes if you have a different view of who is in the wrong than what the writer is trying to tell you, the whole watching experience jars. This is what I think happens a few times with firefly, when women act like bitches towards men without real justification and without getting called on it.

Quote:

Or, if not, is there something in Kaylee's past that explains her overreaction? Kaylee seems to have a bit of an inferiority complex about being poor and coming from the Rim.

Don't worry I'm not angry at Kaylee :-) She can be flawed and I'll forgive her - but the flaws ought to be acknowledged in the story. No, I'm suggesting Joss doesn't see the flaws himself, because he's generally in awe of women.


Heads should roll

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Sunday, October 18, 2009 4:26 PM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN


@BYTEMITE - Actually, I agree with you about Zoe. Her "presence" was always strongly felt (to me at least) in every scene she was in...I think it's just I wanted MOREMOREMORE Zoe. and she is closed off - we get a glimpse at what she's thinking, but never the whole story. She was as mysterious in her own way for me as she was solid. I wish we had had a Zoe-centric episode. That was the ONLY reason I was less than devastated by Wash dying, b/c I assumed that as the show had gone on (IF it had/will -hoping still) we would have gotten a lot more Zoe.

@KPO - yeah, portraying women as being allowed to get away with being snotty isn't "feminist", per se, but portraying a young woman like Kaylee acting in an immature fashion, as she does, is terrifically realistic. its like "oh boys will be boys", only as applied to a girl in this case. I think we were actually supposed to sympathize with Simon under the circumstances. I mean, I did. Obviously I can't speak for anyone else....but I think it was obvious Zoe did.
I do take a little objection (that's probably too strong a word, honestly) about the empathetic qualities, among others, as being the highest for women. That's not the only strength, or "type", of strength or good quality that a human of the female variety is capable of, and not to go off topic, but we had good examples in Firefly of men portraying that virtue instead. Wash, in particular, but Simon and even Mal I think all showed a strong capacity for it. Come to think of it, getting a little back on the topic, did Wash ever make a "mistake" of any kind? There was the fight with him and Mal in War Stories, but as others pointed out that was a pretty reasonable reaction given his uncertainty re: his wife's loyalties - which stemmed from her lack of communication. I can't think of any other time...He just always seemed to be an all around awesome person, almost without faults.

@BYTEMITE (again:)) I think Simon and River have a better than close relationship, and that scene struck me as something I would have done with my sibling if they had been shot down - make a slightly cutting remark as a joke to lighten them up. I'm betting Simon saw it that way as well. But you bring up a great point about Kaylee - it's really apparent to me that she has both a fascination with the finer things in life (like the fascination so many have with the extremely wealthy and their lifestyles, or celebs) and Simon represents that to her....Inara as well, so she is drawn to them both. But with Simon the whole romance thing comes into play as well, and yeah, I think that being around him definitely brings her insecurities and awareness of her lower-class status and background to the forefront for her...maybe she's just particularly defensive around him? It would be interesting to learn if there were any particular incidents in her past that may have contributed to that, or if that's just how she is. She reminds me sometimes a little of the main character in Memoirs of a Geisha...except she never becomes a geisha.

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Sunday, October 18, 2009 4:57 PM

BYTEMITE


Don't forget Book, Book was a male figure of extreme empathy and healing, and he worked hard to become so.

And in regards to Wash, he managed to resist SAFFRON. The guy should seriously be a saint!

Quote:

I think Simon and River have a better than close relationship, and that scene struck me as something I would have done with my sibling if they had been shot down - make a slightly cutting remark as a joke to lighten them up. I'm betting Simon saw it that way as well.


I have a big brother myself. It's such a little sister thing to do.

Quote:

...maybe she's just particularly defensive around him? It would be interesting to learn if there were any particular incidents in her past that may have contributed to that, or if that's just how she is. She reminds me sometimes a little of the main character in Memoirs of a Geisha...except she never becomes a geisha.


I think she is defensive, and that something contributed to that.

And being that Kaylee is sort of like Inara's little sister... I can definitely agree with Memoirs of a Geisha junior. :)

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Sunday, October 18, 2009 10:10 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Saw some mention of feminism equalling or in relation to physical beauty, attractiveness, nublity. Some have denied this correlation, some have championed the case.
Hate to break the news, but physical attractiveness is a power among humans, both for females as well as for males. Not saying it should be that way, but it is. The so-called "beautiful people" have a distinct advantage in business and other competition, particularly sales. Not much point in denying it.

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Sunday, October 18, 2009 10:48 PM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Saw some mention of feminism equalling or in relation to physical beauty, attractiveness, nublity. Some have denied this correlation, some have championed the case.
Hate to break the news, but physical attractiveness is a power among humans, both for females as well as for males. Not saying it should be that way, but it is. The so-called "beautiful people" have a distinct advantage in business and other competition, particularly sales. Not much point in denying it.


That was not the way of it. I doubt you'll find anyone willing to deny that physical attractiveness is a power among humans. The question was whether a woman's physical beauty equates to feminism. I argued the case that such sexual 'power' is A) rather a faux power (using sex to get on equal terms with men denies said equality to begin with); and B) that, while 'strong' and 'power' are often mentioned in the same sentence, and feminism is also often associated with 'strong' women, being sexually alluring by no means equates to feminism as "the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men."


--
"What holds the world together, as I have learned from bitter experience, is sexual intercourse." -- Henry Miller

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Monday, October 19, 2009 12:08 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Check the last full paragraph of fearthebunnyman.

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Monday, October 19, 2009 12:39 AM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Check the last full paragraph of fearthebunnyman.



No, Asarian has the right of it, he/she just put it a lot better than I did. I would agree that beauty or physical attractiveness can translate into social capital in a lot of situations, but not all women have it, not those that do have it all their lives, some men have it, and that same beauty that can be a privilege in one circumstance can be a real liability or even a danger in so many others. So I think its overstating it to call it "power".

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Monday, October 19, 2009 1:10 AM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN


Oh, and to get back on the topic, bytamite brought up Book which was a good point; Book's checkered past aside, we have him and Wash as to main (male) characters that, as far as I can recall, are virtually faultless. Are they pedestalled? and if so, you figure that's why Joss killed them off? ;)

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Monday, October 19, 2009 2:15 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Or, if not, is there something in Kaylee's past that explains her overreaction? Kaylee seems to have a bit of an inferiority complex about being poor and coming from the Rim. Where might that come from?


In earnest, I don't read "a bit of an inferiority complex about being poor and coming from the Rim" from Kaylee at all. Way I see it, Kaylee is perfectly happy in her 'simple' life. Her life is organized in pretty much the same manner as, say, her attitude towards sex: uncomplicated, devoid of shame or intrigue. And she likes it that way; it is her way, even.

Kaylee's first reaction to meeting Simon is perfectly understandable, without having to resort to inferiority complexes. Here she is, young girl of the Rim, meeting a high-class Doctor. 'Naturally' he makes her heart tick faster, but not because she's feeling inferior to the high social circles he moves in. I would even go so far as to say she cares not one iota for that stuff (as evinced, for example, in her perfectly unstrained relationship with Inara). Rather, she's 'flattered' by the idea -- for lack of a better term -- that she, a simple girl, could be with a Doctor. Simple as that. She's never aspired a life of social politics (as we saw at the Tam residence), or ever felt sad or inferior for not going to the D'arbanville's Ball (except, in the most general sense, that as a girl she's flattered when a guy takes her to a ball; see Shindig). Speaking of Shindig, it's very clear that the way of those high-society girls is not just entirely foreign to her, in the sense being unfamiliar to it, but is also wholly contrary to her entire soul make-up. It's simply not who she is, wants to be, or ever felt inferior over not being.

I think Kaylee is so hurt, in The Message, because -- whilst she never had really aspiration to hooking a Doctor or some such -- having one nearby who actually (potentially) shows some interest in her nonetheless made her feel all manner of special. And along comes Simon, dashing that illusion in the crudest form possble, telling her he's kinda interested in her because, well, she's pretty much the only girl around. Could he possibly have been more insensitive? I don't even think she overreacted.

Anyway, those are my $0.02


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Monday, October 19, 2009 2:58 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by fearthebunnyman:
Oh, and to get back on the topic, bytamite brought up Book which was a good point; Book's checkered past aside, we have him and Wash as to main (male) characters that, as far as I can recall, are virtually faultless. Are they pedestalled? and if so, you figure that's why Joss killed them off? ;)


Not to be too contrary, LOL, but I think Firefly is actually the exception to Joss pedestalling (can you really use that as a verb?) the women. Or any of the cast, really. Mal ain't the plucky hero, for one. And we know Joss purposely didn't set him up like one, either. Nor do I see Inara as pedestalled. Her high social status, after a fashion, only serves to deconstruct said high society. River is awesome, of course. But pedestalled? I don't see it. And Book? His murky past pretty much precludes him from pedestallation (is that a word?). Jayne is right out. Wash, he's a likeable guy, and often the ship's walking voice of moral reason (shared with Book); but pedestallable (I can keep this up a while, honestly) for it? Nah. And Zoe? Proud warrior woman, rather withdrawn into herself for the most part (and her life with Wash). She has few overt flaws, but I don't think Joss set her up as pedestal material, really. And sweet Kaylee? If there's any pedestallization (see?) going on, then probably only in my own head, as I so deeply admire the way she is (to the point where I often quietly elevate her Way to a higher manner of being). Not entirely sure Joss meant for that, though.

Only exception, really, would have to be Simon, in my book. Noble as a grape. He gave up everything for River. He symbolizes love in its purest form (not based on making love, for a change). If anyone deserves a pedestal, it's Simon really. Instead, he got a hamster. Such is life.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Monday, October 19, 2009 3:30 AM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN


Wholeheartedly agree with you about Simon. In spite of his social awkwardness, and a smidge of arrogance, he is practically a saint, in the authentic sense. His forgiveness of Jayne in "Trash" was one of the most profound things I've seen from a TV character.

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Monday, October 19, 2009 4:01 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

In earnest, I don't read "a bit of an inferiority complex about being poor and coming from the Rim" from Kaylee at all. Way I see it, Kaylee is perfectly happy in her 'simple' life. Her life is organized in pretty much the same manner as, say, her attitude towards sex: uncomplicated, devoid of shame or intrigue. And she likes it that way; it is her way, even.

Kaylee's first reaction to meeting Simon is perfectly understandable, without having to resort to inferiority complexes. Here she is, young girl of the Rim, meeting a high-class Doctor. 'Naturally' he makes her heart tick faster, but not because she's feeling inferior to the high social circles he moves in. I would even go so far as to say she cares not one iota for that stuff (as evinced, for example, in her perfectly unstrained relationship with Inara). Rather, she's 'flattered' by the idea -- for lack of a better term -- that she, a simple girl, could be with a Doctor. Simple as that. She's never aspired a life of social politics (as we saw at the Tam residence), or ever felt sad or inferior for not going to the D'arbanville's Ball (except, in the most general sense, that as a girl she's flattered when a guy takes her to a ball; see Shindig). Speaking of Shindig, it's very clear that the way of those high-society girls is not just entirely foreign to her, in the sense being unfamiliar to it, but is also wholly contrary to her entire soul make-up. It's simply not who she is, wants to be, or ever felt inferior over not being.



I'm going to have to respond here with a Nuh-uh!

Why does Kaylee want the layered cake dress so much? Why is she hurt by the girls who correctly notice that she doesn't fit in at the ball and belittle her social status? It IS foreign to her, because she wouldn't ever put someone down according to status, but that doesn't mean that when it was targetted at her, it didn't sting, and that she didn't want to make friends and feel like she belonged. She wasn't expecting them to behave that way, and had no way of knowing that such cattiness exists. The sum of her experience with Core World elite up to then were Inara and Simon; one is her sex and fashion guru/sometimes hairdresser, one she has a crush on, and both have sort of LEFT that high society to travel on Serenity.

The rest of the ball after that, for Kaylee, is about reaffirming her own comfortable place in the verse through talking about mechanics with the men, who are willing to respect her skills. And once she feels secure again, back on Serenity what does she do? She gets a music download off the Cortex of the song they were playing at the party, and hangs her dress up in her room just so she can look at it.

Twice through the course of the series, Kaylee becomes upset with Simon for implying that she has a low social status, the one time in Safe and the other time in The Message.

My impression of Kaylee is that she has a romantic ideal about Core-World high society, ladies, and gentlemen. Simon Tam, being both Core-World and formerly of high society, about her age, handsome, and polite, fits her profile for an ideal romantic relationship. The only problem is, he doesn't always live up to the image she has, and his niceness and politeness actually get in the way, because it makes him awkward around Kaylee, who is direct and forward.

I am NOT saying she's interested in high society because of a mercenary desire to move upwards, but rather because she thinks "Aw, it's so shiny! *sigh* *heart*."

Now, maybe an actual inferiority complex is an exaggeration, because I think most times, I would agree with you that Kaylee likes who she is and what she does and her life as a spacer. But she's very concerned about making a good impression on Simon, and I think that's why she can become so defensive at times. Remember when Jayne makes a joke at the table about Kaylee in the pilot episode? The comment really isn't far off from something Kaylee HERSELF might normally say, but she acts ashamed and embarrassed, BECAUSE Simon is there to hear it.

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Monday, October 19, 2009 4:55 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Oh, and to get back on the topic, bytamite brought up Book which was a good point; Book's checkered past aside, we have him and Wash as to main (male) characters that, as far as I can recall, are virtually faultless. Are they pedestalled?


I think in this discussion we are still to make clear what it means to pedestal somebody. For them to be or act noble? People can be noble. There are noble and ignoble male and female characters in firefly, I don't think there is anything to look at here.

Two arguments for women in firefly being pedestalled, in different ways:

1. All the women on ship are extraordinary specimens of female, in some way - imbued with remarkable skills and talents. Not ordinary women, but ordinary women with special talents. So are their achievements and their character strength 'a triumph of female strength', or a triumph of special talents?

2. The women in firefly when they get into arguments with the men, it is always the man's fault (or at least portrayed that way, even when it isn't). Is this true to reality, of male/female interactions and relationships?

Heads should roll

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Monday, October 19, 2009 5:07 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

but portraying a young woman like Kaylee acting in an immature fashion, as she does, is terrifically realistic.

True, and I guess there was some representation of this, in Kaylee's sulkiness, calling Simon a robot for wanting to perform an autopsy.

I still think she over-reacts, and does wrong to Simon (after his clumsy wronging of her), and this is never commented upon, as if it is perfectly normal and ok. And not just in this one example, a few times throughout the series I think Kaylee over-reacts but the in-story commentary (a different female character swooping by and delivering a glare) is very one-sided against Simon.

Heads should roll

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Monday, October 19, 2009 5:26 AM

BYTEMITE


I know one of the scenes you're talking about... I can't remember, in Safe, does Inara glare at Simon? I know she gives him a look, I always interpreted it as disapproving, but now, as I think of it, I'm having trouble picturing it.

Time for research!

I like this site, since I haven't had my DVDs for about 6 months now.

http://disparue.org/gallery/firefly/

Yeah, does look like kind of a glare. Sometimes Morena pulls off these kind of inscrutable looks where Inara is hiding her reaction out of politeness, and I wanted to make sure.

Now, in Jaynestown, it's not so much a glare, but yes, it's also an unfriendly reaction.

Here's a question. Yes, Kaylee overreacts, but what Simon says in the three cases I can think of are both somewhat hurtful, if not intentional. Clearly they were hurtful enough to not roll off Kaylee, so what WOULD be the proper way to act hurt?

We also need to get to Inara at some point, because Mal makes more mistakes than anyone, as I noted before, and Inara often points them out. Also: the whoring argument.

And River, the Ophelia/Cassandra, plus ass-kicker.

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Monday, October 19, 2009 12:14 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Yes, Kaylee overreacts, but what Simon says in the three cases I can think of are both somewhat hurtful, if not intentional. Clearly they were hurtful enough to not roll off Kaylee, so what WOULD be the proper way to act hurt?

There are more mature ways of reacting to Simon's careless faux-paux - constructive ways, that may make Simon understand her better, and their relationship run smoother... but then where would be the conflict that the writer wants, to keep the viewer interested (the whole 'on/off' 'will they won't they?' thing)?

The question for the writer is how to generate conflict between the two characters in a way where you still sympathise with both of them. I'm saying that a couple of times Joss and his writers didn't quite manage this, because in the end Kaylee acts out of character with her not-quite-justified, slightly hysterical reaction - that that was the only way that the writers managed to achieve the necessary level of bust-up.


Heads should roll

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Monday, October 19, 2009 9:51 PM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
I'm going to have to respond here with a Nuh-uh!


And I'll raise your counter with an Yuh-huh! :) Kinda.

Quote:


Why does Kaylee want the layered cake dress so much?


Because, for all the tomboy mechanic Kaylee is, at heart she's very romantic (look at the lovey-dovey nameplate on her bunk, for instance)

Quote:


Why is she hurt by the girls who correctly notice that she doesn't fit in at the ball and belittle her social status?


Because they treat her as inferior. Which is not the same as feeling, of her own self, inferior.

Quote:


It IS foreign to her, because she wouldn't ever put someone down according to status, but that doesn't mean that when it was targetted at her, it didn't sting...


Of course it stang! Ain't no sane person in the 'Verse that likes to be treated as inferior. And especially since Kaylee so didn't see it coming, it hurt all the more.

Quote:


... and that she didn't want to make friends and feel like she belonged.


That's a two-edged truth: yes, it's in Kaylee's natural disposition to make friends (preferably with everyone).

Quote:


... The rest of the ball after that, for Kaylee, is about reaffirming her own comfortable place in the verse through talking about mechanics with the men, who are willing to respect her skills.


Precisely! While overall wanting to make friends, she's not particularly bent on getting close to Banning and her catty gang. Or any other group of high-society folks she could hobnob with, for that matter. Instead, she does exactly as you say: she immediately reverts to being just herself, talking shop with the men.

Quote:


And once she feels secure again, back on Serenity what does she do? She gets a music download off the Cortex of the song they were playing at the party, and hangs her dress up in her room just so she can look at it.


I think that's just the Cinderella-part in Kaylee. :) What young girl does not dream of being invited to a ball, wearing a beautiful dress? (instead of her usual mechanic 'rags') Had Kaylee had any real interest in getting in with high-society, she would have considered the evening a failure. Yet, far as Kaylee is concerned, she had a good time (despite an unpleasant start). Mal cheated Badger out of good money to buy her that frippery. And even though she knows he said he just did so just so she could make him look respectable, to Kaylee this matters none: she realizes he did it half-way (if not all the way) to apologize to her for brushing her off so rudely before. She also got to question the buffet table, and people did like her at the ball: folks that matter to her (like the young men who listened to her talk about how extenders ain't braced on the eighty-oh-four's and such, and the older guy who put Banning in her place). It's only natural she wants the good feel' to linger for a bit, when back on Serenity.

Quote:


I am NOT saying she's interested in high society because of a mercenary desire to move upwards, but rather because she thinks "Aw, it's so shiny! *sigh* *heart*."


That's something I completely agree with.

Quote:


Now, maybe an actual inferiority complex is an exaggeration, because I think most times, I would agree with you that Kaylee likes who she is and what she does and her life as a spacer. But she's very concerned about making a good impression on Simon...


Yes, and I'm beginning to see where you're coming from with the inferiority complex. I think she definitely feels inadequate around Simon; or, at least, inadequate when it comes to matters of higher etiquette that she thinks are what will impress Simon. The gift-shop in Safe is a good example. Both Simon and Inara pull up their noses at the junk; but Kaylee looks at a wooden swan and says it looks like it was made with, you know... longing. Obviously, she's out of her element when it comes to the finer arts; and she knows it. Simon is also not exactly impressed. The table turns, though, when Simon suddenly calls Serenity garbage. Because, well, Serenity ain't luh-suh; and try as she might to impress him, Kaylee, at heart, always stays true to her own self and the things that have value to her (like her life as a spacer).

Quote:


Remember when Jayne makes a joke at the table about Kaylee in the pilot episode? The comment really isn't far off from something Kaylee HERSELF might normally say, but she acts ashamed and embarrassed, BECAUSE Simon is there to hear it.


A very good observation! :)

The Vorlons say understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth. Well, I've heard your side, and you've heard mine. And as for the truth, I dunno yet. I do know, at least, that I love talking about Kaylee! :)


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 5:15 AM

BYTEMITE


I like your Cinderella analogy, I think that's a better way to describe it.

But inadequacy versus inferiority. I could see it both ways, but I still do lean towards inferiority. When I think inadequate, I think of "not having anything /unable to offer anything." Whereas inferiority is a question of worth.

I think, in Objects in Space, when Kaylee tells the crew about River shooting the guards on Niska's Skyplex, and the way when she tries to talk to Simon after and seems guilty, that's a hint of Kaylee feeling inferior. And in a few other places, best one I can think of is in the comic book Better Days, Kaylee laments that Simon doesn't even seem to look at her, "like she's invisible or something." Feeling small or invisible sounds like inferiority to me.

Kayleee probably has always felt noticed by Inara, and so even though in some ways Kaylee looks up to Inara, she hasn't felt a negative sense of inferiority. But with Simon, obviously, it's different, and I think it does bring out some sort of uncertainty and self-doubt in Kaylee, something that I think may have been there all along, and possibly has some basis in her past.

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Thursday, January 7, 2010 1:17 PM

NOGARD


I would suggest everyone interested in this subject watch this clip of Joss making a speech at Equality Now, in which he gives a few answers as to why he writes strong female characters.



Then, in an interview after he made this speech he gave another answer: because he identifies with them.

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Thursday, January 21, 2010 12:06 AM

GILDEDMUSE


Quote:


I still think she over-reacts, and does wrong to Simon (after his clumsy wronging of her), and this is never commented upon, as if it is perfectly normal and ok. And not just in this one example, a few times throughout the series I think Kaylee over-reacts but the in-story commentary (a different female character swooping by and delivering a glare) is very one-sided against Simon.




Jumping in late, but I feel this way as well. Kaylee and Simon both make mistakes in their relationship, but the reaction towards those mistakes is not equal. When Simon tells Kaylee she's the "only girl in the 'verse," he's trying to say something romantic, only it comes off terribly wrong and she ends up walking away in a huff. Later, in OiS, Kaylee says that River "isn't human". She's not doing it to purposefully hurt River or Simon, but it does and Simon ends up walking away upset. The mood of the piece, however, is entirely different. The scene that follows in "The Message" has Inara offering her report, Kaylee being heart broken (enough to ditch Simon for the next boy who comes alive), and River calling him an idiot - it's pretty clear we're suppose to feel sorry for Kaylee, or at least laugh at Simon for being so bad at flirting. However, when Kaylee catches up to Simon after implying, pretty much, that his little sister, the one he has done everything to protect, is "not human", what is the point of that scene? What is the viewer suppose to want? Well, we want them to kiss and make up, of course which, again, seems to sympathize more with Kaylee's emotions and needs than with Simon's.

I don't think the problem is necessarily that the female characters are less fleshed out, I think it's that the show tends to direct the audience towards identifying more heavily with the female characters whenever conflict arises. It doesn't help that Mal is the main character and the captain, and so of course most of the decisions (including the stupid ones) are left up to him. The end result is going to skew what we know and feel about the characters.

There is also a no win factor in some of the characters. If Zoe is a woman, she is "The Amazon", strong but silent just to show that women are equal to men with no real characterization. If she's a guy than we ask why are all the fighters on the ship men, why can't women be that strong? If Kaylee's a woman who is good with engines, she's being made too perfect. If you have a guy who is good with engines than no one questions his skill, but they do ask why a women can't be good with technical work, why it's always the men who are shown to be good with engines. You can even see where Joss tried to fix this: Have Kaylee be a sweet, naive young woman whose innocence is not compromised by her sexuality. Have her like engines and frilly dresses. Have Zoe by strong and amazon like, but have her also be a loving wife who wants a child. Personally, I enjoy those little touches. I'm tired of seeing "strong" female characters who are only considered "strong" because they act in exactly the way a man does, only they're BETTER at it. That's not feminism. That's just further playing into the patriarch, conforming that for a person to be strong they must act in a way that is perceived as being predominately masculine, and just to prove that the writers really are feminist they of course have to give the female the edge. Place them on a pedestal, as you put it, only instead of saying "as a woman you should be pure and virginal and kind and beautiful" the message is "as a woman you should be all of that, plus be perfect at everything." At no point is the message "as a woman, you're just a person, just yourself, made of all the flaws and strengths that effect everyone in this world."

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Thursday, January 21, 2010 5:24 AM

BYTEMITE


That's a good point. Wherever the women have abilities that might be considered traditionally male roles, the show balances them with their characters. River can do EVERYTHING, but it's balanced by how fragile she is (not that fragile is feminine, but you know what I mean). Inara is perhaps the closest character to a traditional female role on the ship (dresses, perfume, "angel of the house" like when it comes to enduring Mal being a bastard and looking after the girls), but she isn't pure and virginal, even while at the same time she can be innocent or naive when it comes to life out on the Rim.

With Simon, I think he ends up being the butt of a lot of jokes simply because he's the fish out of water. It's not that we're supposed to not respect Simon, there's a lot to respect, or that we're supposed to side against him. I think that his problems with Kaylee are intended to be more of that "fish out of water" stuff, but it comes across another way for some people simply because of their would-be relationship. I guess I feel like the crew's reaction is "wow, you are just REALLY bad at this" as opposed to "you upset Kaylee, you jerk!"

That's what Mal's reaction in Jaynestown seems like to me, and Zoe and River's reaction in The Message. The only one were there might be a little bit of judgment is in the episode Safe, when Inara shoots Simon kind of an inscrutable look/possible unfriendly stare, but in the shooting script, she merely walks away with Kaylee and comments "you're getting better at hiding it." Meaning Kaylee's crush. All of the crew come across neutral as to who is right when Kaylee and Simon are fighting.

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