Jews build 'Museum of Tolerance' on 1,000s of Arab graves by piratenews

PLEASE don't skip this because PN Posted it.

This one makes some real good points

Row over plan to build Jewish museum of tolerance on site of Muslim cemetery
Rory McCarthy

11dyala-husseini-visits-a-m-001.jpg

Dyala Husseini visits a Muslim cemetery, where her ancestors are buried, near the construction site of a museum dedicated to tolerance. Photograph: Dan Balilty/AP

• Islamic groups say site contains thousands of graves
• Petition challenges court's decision to back project

February 11, 2010

A group of Palestinians descended from 15 of Jerusalem's oldest Arab families lodged a protest with the UN today in a fresh effort to prevent the construction of a "Museum of Tolerance" on the site of an ancient Muslim cemetery.

The project, run by the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in Los Angeles, has been dogged by controversy since its launch in 2004. Islamic groups and individual Palestinians complained that the site, in west Jerusalem, was the ancient cemetery of Ma'man Allah, also known as Mamilla, which housed thousands of graves dating back hundreds of years and where even today there are still many gravestones and tombs.

The Simon Wiesenthal Centre argued the site was adjacent to the cemetery and that construction would be on what is today a municipal car park.

After legal battles, the Israeli Supreme Court ruled in October 2008 that building could go ahead. But the Israel Antiquities Authority's chief excavator for the site, Gideon Suleimani, found the site was a cemetery in use for the past 1,000 years that "abounded with graves" and should not be open to construction without a full excavation, which never happened. He said his assessment was ignored by the court. Then late last year Frank Gehry, the celebrity architect working on the project, withdrew.

Some 60 Palestinians have signed a petition which was lodged today in Geneva with several UN bodies, including the high commissioner for human rights, the special rapporteur on freedom of religion and belief and Unesco, the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation. "This construction project has resulted in the undignified disinterment and disposal of several hundred graves and human remains, the exact amount and whereabouts of which are currently unknown and threatens to erect a monument to 'Human Dignity' and 'Tolerance' atop thousands more graves," the petition says.

It describes the project as a violation of international human rights law and calls for a halt to construction, the reburial of all the remains and the preservation of the cemetery as a protected site.

"This tolerance museum to us is a museum of intolerance," said Dyala Husseini, who has ancestors from her family and her husband's family buried in the cemetery. "It is very inhumane, it is very humiliating and it ignores our existence as Palestinian families here in Jerusalem. Our families are here in Jerusalem and have been here for centuries," she said.

Jamal Nusseibeh said one of his ancestors, the former governor of Jerusalem Burhan al-Din al-Khazraji ibn Nusseibeh, was buried in the cemetery in 1432. "It is part of the rich fabric of Jerusalem which always has been a symbol of tolerance," he said. "The fact that anybody could wish to wipe out such a structural part of this fabric in order somehow to promote tolerance is very hard to understand."

Last month Rabbi Marvin Hier, the Simon Wiesenthal Centre's founder, said the project was on a "fantastic site in the heart of Jerusalem" and would bring "to Jerusalem and the people of Israel, a project of crucial significance to its future".

The centre has said the museum is being built on a car park next to the cemetery and that there was no protest about the construction of the car park 50 years ago. "Is it better to let this site remain a parking lot, or build a centre for human dignity there, which would teach young people mutual respect and social responsibility?" it said after the Israeli Supreme Court ruled in its favour.

The petition contains maps, photographs and other documents to make the case that the museum site is on the grounds of the cemetery, as is the car park. When the car park was built in the early 1960s there were protests, the petition says, but Palestinians in Israel were under military law, which severely curtailed their civil rights, including their ability to challenge the work.

http://uruknet.info/index.php?p=m63171&hd=&size=1&l=e

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 1:37 PM

FREMDFIRMA

And just when I don't think they could possibly stoop any lower...

Propping up that government with my tax money and shitloads of weapons is another thing I got serious ISSUES with, especially since they're no friend of anyone, not even themselves.

Also pisses me off that their actions are the only factor besides government funding via informants, propping up them neo-nazi assholes, cause you gotta think after hearing the fifth, tenth, twentieth, case of this, some folks with less education and historical background knowledge start wondering to themselves whether the nazis had a point.

And that's almost the damned saddest thing of all, cause it was shit EXACTLY like what they do to Palestine which got the third reich so properly vilified - and yet, how many Palestinians have they killed, does anyone count, does anyone care ?

Cause it'd be interesting to compare the actual numbers, there.

But the REAL saddest thing of all of this, is that looked at in a long-view historical sense, say 80-120 years down the road, I can see Palestine doing it to some other people out of fear of this shit happening to THEM, just like Israel is doin to Palestine.

Maybe we can't stop it, but sure as shit we could stop fucking SUPPORTING it.

-F

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 2:04 PM

Very sad indeed.

Zionists = psychopath's

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 2:22 PM

KIRKULES

I wonder if anyone has suggested an alternative site or do the Palestinians consider all of Israel "an ancient Muslim cemetery”.

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 2:34 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
stop it, but sure as shit we could stop fucking SUPPORTING it.

Yep.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 2:38 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
I wonder if anyone has suggested an alternative site or do the Palestinians consider all of Israel "an ancient Muslim cemetery”.

Well, I'm sure the Israeli government would love to make all of the Middle East a giant Muslim cemetery.

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 3:40 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Since this is Jerusalem, presumably 100s of graves are of Christians.

1,000s of Palestinians today are Christian Semites, a fact conveniently censored from all news reports of Israel's genocide of its own Semite citizens.

I'm sure this site was picked to specifically enrage the "Arabs", to keep the race-war alive. Without a war, there's no reason to send billions of taxdollars to Israel in foreign aid, which greatly profits the US Military Industrial Complex. Israel gets the latest US military weapons before the US military does.

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 3:49 PM

Here is an interesting effort

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2010/02/12/israel-fighting-dele
gitimisation-campaign

Israel fighting 'delegitimisation campaign'

By Clayton Swisher in

* Middle East

on February 12th, 2010
.
Share

As outrage grows in US campuses over Israeli policies towards Palestinians, Israel seems to be fighting back.

Harvard University's well-known law school, or HLS, was the intellectual training ground for US President Barack Obama (HLS 91'), who through his high marks became editor of the Harvard Law Review.

Obama might find it interesting to know the miles some HLS students have to travel to become expert in their field - only to be turned back.

Consider the case of 3rd year law student Hebah Ismail, who is putting the finishing touches on her studies with Harvard's International Human Rights Clinic.

Like Obama, Hebah entered Harvard law already a world traveller. The US citizen of Egyptian extraction landed at Tel Aviv's Ben Gurion recently to study land disputes facing the Arab Bedouin community.

But airport security officials weren't having it.

According to the Harvard paper, Hebah's laptop and cell phone were seized and searched. But that wasn't satisfying enough, so an ultimatum was delivered: log us into your email accounts, or you will be deported and banned from ever entering Israel.

Hebah refused and faced the consequences. She was put on a plane back to the States, unable to conduct her research.

Al Jazeera has reported about how Israeli authorities have been denying NGO workers access into Israel and the Palestinian territories.

Yesterday I wrote that Israel might not be prepared to counter the growing American campus outrage over its policies towards the Palestinians.

But connecting the dots, it is clear this is how they intend to fight back.

A new study flagged in this Israeli newspaper warns that Israel is facing a global delegitimisation campaign.

The prestigious Reut Institute, which issued the report, is headed by an erudite mover-and-shaker named Gidi Grinstein, a lawyer who also attended Harvard.

The Reut Study is comprehensive, and deserves reading in full. But I seriously doubt Grinstein (whom I've known for nearly a decade) would advocate deportation of visiting scholars and field researchers who refuse to let Israeli cybersleuths sign into their Harvard/Gmail acccounts.

On the positive side, at least US immigration officials welcomed Hebah home without incident.

Good thing she wasn't carrying Arabic flash cards.

Plus

http://reut-institute.org/en/Publication.aspx?PublicationId=3766

Eroding Israel’s Legitimacy in the International Arena
Israel is facing a dramatic assault on the very legitimacy of its existence as a Jewish and democratic state. The groups promoting this delegitimacy aim to isolate Israel and ultimately turn it into a pariah state. This issue of ReViews tracks this strategy and its components.
In recent years, Israel has faced a dramatic assault on the very legitimacy of its existence as a Jewish and democratic state. While the ideological framework for this delegitimacy was solidified after the first Durban Conference in 2001, the trend has been given a boost by the perceived lack of progress in the political process, coupled with Operation Cast Lead in Gaza.1

The groups making the fundamental delegitimacy of Israel among their main rallying cries represent a marginal phenomenon in Western politics. Although some of their activities are portrayed as protesting against Israeli policies, in fact they are frequently manipulated in order to blur the difference between valid criticism of Israeli policies and attempts to undermine Israel's right to exist. Thus, they are able to disproportionately impact Israel's international legitimacy.

The aim of these groups is to internationally isolate Israel and ultimately turn it into a pariah state through demonizing the country;2 promoting a policy of boycott, divestment and sanctions (BDS); and waging a legal struggle against the state and its citizens.

This issue of ReViews tracks this strategy and its components.
The Strategy: Turning Israel into a Pariah

* Addressing an International Conference on Palestine in London, Betty Hunter of Palestine Solidarity Campaign, UK said that, "Our task is to isolate Israel and to make it a pariah state." (International Conference on Palestine-London 12/5/04).

* Speaking at Hampshire College, Ali Abuminah explained that, "The loss of legitimacy in the practices of the [South African] apartheid regime is what changed, and when a system loses its legitimacy, all the weapons in the world cannot protect it... we're beginning to see a similar loss of legitimacy for Zionism." (Conference in Hampshire College 11/21/09).

* During Operation Cast Lead, the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network advised that "unless this ideology [of Zionism] is delegitimized and defeated, the violence in the Middle East will continue to escalate." (Call to Action on Gaza 01/09/09).

Demonization

Demonizing Israel creates an ideological justification for taking concrete steps aimed at negating the state's legitimacy. Demonization is rooted in the narrative of Israel as an illegitimate colonial entity born in sin that practices Nazism, apartheid and racism. This narrative plays out in several key arenas, such as public protests and demonstrations, the media, and campus activities.

* Protestors in Brazil, Madrid and Buenos Aires held signs equating Israeli leaders and actions with Nazism and genocide (YNET 11/12/09, ADL 01/09).

* A series of events, titled "Gaza: Our Guernica," organized by the Palestinian societies at five University of London campuses, is due to take place throughout January and February. The reference to Guernica evokes a fascist attack that targeted Basque civilians (Jerusalem Post 01/21/10).

* First launched in 2005, Israel Apartheid Week is an annual event organized by anti-Zionist groups, which aims to create a link between Israel and the former apartheid regime in South Africa in order to lead a boycott against it. In 2009, Apartheid Week grew to include 27 cities, including England, the U.S., South Africa, the West Bank, Mexico, Scotland, and Norway3 (Jerusalem Post 1/29/09).

* A series of articles aimed to establish Israel as an apartheid state engaging in racist and discriminatory behavior (Guardian feature on Israel and Apartheid 2/6/07 part 1 and part 2).

* The University of Pittsburgh held a conference entitled ‘Divest from Israeli Apartheid' (Pittsburgh Palestine Solidarity Committee 10/23/09).

* One of Sweden's largest dailies published a double-page focusing on claims that Israeli soldiers seized young men from the West Bank and Gaza and later returned the bodies with missing organs (Aftonbladet 08/26/09).

* Nobel peace laureate Mairead Maguire accused Israel of "ethnic cleansing" policies in east Jerusalem (Agence France-Presse 04/21/09).

Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS)

Attempts to demonize Israel provide the ideological and rhetorical platform for pursuing a policy of BDS in the fields of academia, economy, culture, sport, and security.

Despite the BDS movement including several academics, trade unions, and church groups, it has enjoyed limited practical success so far. However, efforts have been highly successful in generating publicity and in mobilizing anti-Israel activism, effectively uniting anti-Zionists with critics of specific Israeli policies.4

The risk posed is that such campaigns will create an equivalency between Israel and apartheid-era South Africa that penetrates the mainstream of public and political consciousness. Given Israel's dependence on vigorous trade, as well as scientific, academic, and technological engagement with other countries, this movement towards isolating the country may pose a strategic threat.

The BDS movement is largely spearheaded by non-governmental organizations. In a revealing example, the World Social Forum - an umbrella group for hundreds of social, anti-globalization, and rights groups worldwide - announced it would be launching a campaign calling on all of its affiliates to excommunicate Israel (YNET 3/30/09). Similar initiatives have also been taken up in academic, cultural and scientific, security, sporting, and economic arenas.

Academic:

* One of Norway's largest academic institutions, the University of Bergen intends to impose an official academic boycott against Israel over what it claims is its apartheid-like conduct (YNET 01/24/10).

* The board of the University of Trondheim in Norway held a vote on adopting an academic boycott of Israel. Three days prior, the institution hosted a lecture on Israel's alleged use of anti-Semitism as a political tool (Haaretz 10/20/09).

* A group of American university professors recently launched the U.S. Campaign for the Academic and Cultural Boycott of Israel (Weekly Standard 3/20/09).

* University workers in the Canadian Union of Public Employees passed a motion calling for an academic boycott of Israel, and union members from at least one Toronto university planned to pressure their school to cut any financial ties with the country (The Star 02/22/09).

* A letter by 400 UK academics urging boycott, divestment, sanctions against Israel was published in the Guardian (Guardian 01/26/09).

* Since 2003, there have been a multitude of attempts to impose an academic boycott on Israel in the UK. A prominent example is the successful passage - later overturned - of a motion by Britain's largest lecturers' union (Natfhe) supporting a boycott of Israeli lecturers and academic institutions not publicly disassociating from Israel's "apartheid policies" (Guardian 05/30/06; UCU Website 5/30/06).

Culture and Science:

* The Toronto International Film Festival was the object of controversy for selecting Tel Aviv as its thematic subject, with high-profile artists signing a statement in support of a filmmaker who withdrew his entry (Guardian 09/07/09).

* An exhibition celebrating Tel Aviv's White City due to take place in Brussels was postponed after local organizers faced demands to boycott Israeli culture (YNET 2/9/09).

* The 2009 Edinburgh International film festival returned a £300 gift from the Israeli embassy following protests (Guardian 09/07/09).

* More than 400 academics called on Britain's prestigious Science Museum to cancel workshops promoting Israeli scientific achievements to schoolchildren (The Independent 03/03/09).

Security:

* A Norwegian government pension fund sold its shares in Elbit Systems due to its role in building Israel's security fence (TradingMarkets.com 09/03/09).

* Belgium's government banned the export to Israel of weapons that "strengthen it militarily" (Haaretz 02/01/09).

* British labor unions voted to support a ban on importing goods produced in 'illegal settlements' and ending arms trading with Israel (Associated Press 09/17/09).

Economic:

* The Irish Municipal, Public and Civil Trade Union passed two resolutions endorsing a boycott of Israeli goods and services and supporting divestment from corporations engaged in, or profiting from, the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza (Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign 05/29/08).

* The Congress of South African Trade Unions joined the boycott of Israel, calling Israel ‘an apartheid nation' (YNET 08/06/06).

* At its annual meeting, the British National Union of Journalists called for "a boycott of Israeli goods similar to those boycotts in the struggles against apartheid South Africa led by trade unions, and [for] the [Trade Union Congress] to demand sanctions be imposed on Israel by the British government " (The Guardian 04/13/07).

* Canadian Union of Postal Workers called for a Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions campaign against Israel (Canadian Union of Postal Workers 04/09/09).

International ‘Lawfare'

In parallel to demonization and promotion of the BDS Strategy, groups and individuals have increasingly sought to combat Israel in the legal arena. These efforts comprise attempts to: utilize laws of universal jurisdiction in European countries in order to charge Israeli generals and politicians with war crimes; levy proceedings against Israel in the International Criminal Court and the International Court of Justice; and file charges against corporations conducting business with Israel.

While certain initiators of these lawsuits claim to exclusively act according to a humanitarian agenda, Hamas involvement in some of these cases may indicate that the intention of prosecuting Israeli military and political leaders is not always pure.5

* A British court issued an arrest warrant for Tzipi Livni for war crimes that Livni allegedly conducted as Israel's foreign minister during Operation Cast Lead (Guardian 12/14/09).

* Two law firmsrepresenting a group of Palestinians applied for an international arrest warrant against Ehud Barak, claiming that he committed war crimes and breaches of the Geneva Convention during Operation Cast Lead (Jerusalem Post 09/29/09).

* French pro-Palestinian organizations filed a law suit with the International Criminal Court against the Israeli president, foreign minister and defense minister (JCPA March April 2009).

* A class action lawsuit was filed in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia against former IDF Chief of Staff Moshe Yaalon (NGO Monitor 09/08). The following year, New Zealand's Auckland District Court issued an arrest warrant for Yaalon on charges of war crimes (Jerusalem Post 11/30/06).

* A class action lawsuit was filed in a New York U.S. District Court against former Director of Israel's General Security Service Avi Dichter for "war crimes and other gross human rights violations" concerning his alleged involvement in a 2002 military strike in Gaza (NGO Monitor 09/08).

* Major General Doron Almog avoided arrest in the UK by remaining on an El Al airplane and flying back to Israel, after a UK court issued a warrant for his arrest on charges of breaching international laws during Israel's control of Gaza (BBC 09/12/05).

* A law suit alleging war crimes was filed in a Spanish Court and with Switzerland's Military Attorney General against former Israeli Defense Minister Benjamin Ben-Eliezer, former IDF Chief of Staff Shaul Mofaz, former Israel Security Agency Director Avi Dichter, and Doron Almog (American Jewish Committee 10/04; CNN 1/29/09).

* Belgium's highest court was set to try Ariel Sharon for his role as defense minister in the 1982 massacres at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Beirut (New York Times 02/13/2003).

* International Criminal Court Chief Prosecutor Luis Moreno-Ocampo considered whether to investigate Lt. Col. David Benjamin, a reserve officer in the Israeli military involved in authorizing Israeli military actions during Operation Cast Lead on the grounds of Benjamin's status as a dual citizen of Israel and South Africa, which has signed the ICC's charter (Newsweek 09/21/09). The ICC also considered whether the Palestinian Authority was "enough like a state" for it to initiate a case alleging that Israeli troops committed war crimes in Gaza (Guardian 3/2/09).

* The UN fact-finding mission on the Gaza conflict headed by Richard Goldstone "found strong evidence to establish" that Israel committed serious war crimes and breaches of humanitarian law that may amount to crimes against humanity (UN 09/15/09).

* In July 2008, law suits were filed suit in Quebec against three Canadian corporations accused of "aiding, abetting, assisting and conspiring with Israel, the Occupying Power in the West Bank, in carrying out an illegal act" through their involvement in construction projects in the town of Kiryat Sefer (Modi'in Ilit) (NGO Monitor 06/11/09).

* A 2005 law suit filed against Caterpillar, Inc. in a U.S. District Court charged the corporation with "providing specially designed bulldozers to the IDF that it knew would be used to demolish homes and endanger civilians" (NGO Monitor 09/08).

* A law suit was filed against the British Government in Birmingham charging that the sale of military equipment to Israel breached guidelines on arms exports and contributed to the oppression of Palestinians in the occupied territories (The London Times 05/30/07).

1 See Ari Shavit, Haaretz 10/15/09; Ethan Bronner, New York Times 10/19/09.

2 Jewish agency Chairman and human rights activist Natan Sharansky describes demonization as occurring when "Israel's actions are blown out of all sensible proportion" and when "comparisons are made between Israelis and Nazis." (Natan Sharansky. 3D Test of Anti-Semitism: Demonization, Double Standards, Delegitimization. Jewish Political Studies Review 16:3-4 Fall 2004).

Canadian Member of Parliament and international human rights lawyer Irwin Cotler meanwhile sees demonization as "the portrayal of Israel as the metaphor for a human rights violator," giving calls for "the dismantling of the apartheid state of Israel... the appearance of international sanction." These demonizing labels are "tantamount to transforming ideological anti-Semitism into a duty - the obligation to remove this Nazi state, Israel." (Irwin Cotler, Identifying the New Anti-Semitism Jewish People Policy Planning Institute. Nov. 2002.)

3 For more see Reut Concept Israel Apartheid Week.

4 See Gal Beckerman The Forward 9/16/09

5 See Reut post: Legal Aid: Role in Livni Arrest Warrant and Beyond

Best weapon to combat this shit is

1. Get the word out, let people know these things are happening... all three newspapers where I lived post pro Israel editorials quite frequently and wouldn't touch a story like this

2. Let your politicians know how you feel about this, most will vote with their partys flow... but it could have benefits down the road

3. Personal Boycott, I read the labels to see where shit comes from, and Israel don't make that list.

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 3:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
I wonder if anyone has suggested an alternative site or do the Palestinians consider all of Israel "an ancient Muslim cemetery”.

If it was Palestinians building on a Jewish site how do you think it would play out ?

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1917&dat=19870721&id=2Q8hAAAAIBA
J&sjid=inIFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1893,5177678

Some of them freak out over Archaeologists digging to see what is there

People who have no respect for anyone else building a museum of tolerance is a very bad joke

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8472193.stm

Palestinian graves found damaged after settlers visit
Damaged gravestones at Awarta village
Food remnants were left on the tombstones

Damaged graves and racist graffiti have been found in the Palestinian village of Awarta in the northern West Bank after a Jewish group visited the area.

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 4:14 PM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
People who have no respect for anyone else building a museum of tolerance is a very bad joke

Don't agree with this, but I have supported ending aid to Israel since Bob Dole brought it up in his 1980 Presidential campaign. Not because I don't support Israel, but because they are perfectly capable of supporting themselves.

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 5:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
People who have no respect for anyone else building a museum of tolerance is a very bad joke

Don't agree with this, but I have supported ending aid to Israel since Bob Dole brought it up in his 1980 Presidential campaign. Not because I don't support Israel, but because they are perfectly capable of supporting themselves.

Why do you support Israel?

( not being snarky, trying to see it from your side )

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 5:20 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

Why do you support Israel?

I conjure it's a "Holy Land" thing, Bethlehem & all.
(Also not being snarky)

The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 6:10 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

Why do you support Israel?

I conjure it's a "Holy Land" thing, Bethlehem & all.
(Also not being snarky)

The laughing Chrisisall

Last I heard, after Palestinian militants with machine guns seized the Church of the Nativity, and held the monks there hostage, Bethleham was in the West Bank, in the area administered by the Palestinian Authority.

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 7:06 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:

Last I heard, after Palestinian militants with machine guns seized the Church of the Nativity, and held the monks there hostage, Bethleham was in the West Bank, in the area administered by the Palestinian Authority.

When was this??

The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 7:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:

Last I heard, after Palestinian militants with machine guns seized the Church of the Nativity, and held the monks there hostage, Bethleham was in the West Bank, in the area administered by the Palestinian Authority.
When was this??

The laughing Chrisisall

2002, of course there was alot more to it that he is saying

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article502.shtml

and only Israel maintains hostages were held and the church was desecrated...

quotes from the hostages:

In the early days of the standoff, the Israeli government repeatedly said that the Church clergy were being held as "hostages." However, in many subsequent telephone interviews, the Christian leaders insisted that they are there of their own free will, to both protect the church from Israeli fire and to render aid to the wounded. The Israeli government again attempted to dismiss these claims, saying that the clergy could not speak freely while inside the church. Again, more interviews proved these claims to be false.

"No, no, no. We are not hostages. We share everything we have with these people, and pray that they will be able to leave peacefully and go back to their homes." - Rev. Amjad Sabbar, Roman Catholic parish priest in the compound

"I wish to firmly state that the Friars and Sisters of the religious community in Bethlehem CANNOT BE CONSIDERED AS HOSTAGES. They have freely chosen to remain in that place, the custody of which has been entrusted to them by the Holy See and which constitutes their home. The other 200 Palestinians besieged inside the Basilica have taken refuge there by force in order to flee from the sweep and search by the Israeli army, just as had happened to the 5 Italian journalists during the first day of the siege. Up to now they have not committed any act of violence or abuse of power against the religious community." - Declaration by the Minister General of the Friars Minor

http://islam.about.com/library/weekly/aa042202a.htm

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 7:59 PM

And I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that in retaliation, Israel then bombed a mosque in the Palestinian territories with white phosphorous.

Heck, you've gotta admit, they ARE consistent.

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 8:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
And I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that in retaliation, Israel then bombed a mosque in the Palestinian territories with white phosphorous.

Heck, you've gotta admit, they ARE consistent.

Looking at some of the Jewish websites I wouldn't be surprised if they hit the Vatican with white phosphorus...

http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp515.htm

As it was Israeli snipers killed 7, and wounded 40... including several guys trying to put out fires, and a retarded kid employed by the monks to ring the bells...

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 11:58 PM

RIVERLOVE

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
And I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that in retaliation, Israel then bombed a mosque in the Palestinian territories with white phosphorous.

Heck, you've gotta admit, they ARE consistent.

And even worse, they consider Palestinian childrens' big toes to be culinary delicacies. Use 'em for shish-kabob on their so-called holidays.

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 12:23 AM

PARTICIPANT

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
do the Palestinians consider all of Israel "an ancient Muslim cemetery”.

I'm surprised the Muslims didn't claim their was a billion graves and then start some rent-a-crowd riot
or amp up the Propaganda with a Pallywood report

That's one of the worst things about the middle east, you couldn't throw a rock without it landing on some patch that some group of religious assholes have already laid claim to

PN is hardly unbiased
he is a proven to be an anti-Jewish hating A-hole

I don't pick sides, in hindsight back in the 50s when all this sh*t was starting to kick off I would bought up land and given the Jews and the Arabs they own separate little islands in the middle of nowhere

Then turned the area into a waste dump for toxic chemicals
That's the only productive thing that can ever happen this region

Western economies are in the shitter yet the Middle East still wants to bleed us all dry
Both these racist assholes will be butting heads for the next 200 years. We should give them nothing, stop giving the Jews money and guns, stop giving the Muslims money and aid.
These people will deliver nothing, the Afghans bankrupted the Soviets and the SandBox almost bankrupted the mighty Roman Empire
Don't give them money, guns, aid...give them nothing!
Everything they are given turns to cancer.
They don't deserve anything from us

Boycott the middle east

If you see it on the news switch it off because its just the SameOldShit everyday

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 6:14 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Car park = good

Museum of tolerance = bad

Got it.

Director: Bureau of Bigfoot Affairs

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 6:38 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:

Last I heard, after Palestinian militants with machine guns seized the Church of the Nativity, and held the monks there hostage, Bethleham was in the West Bank, in the area administered by the Palestinian Authority.
When was this??

The laughing Chrisisall

2002, of course there was alot more to it that he is saying

Chris, I'm not gonna waste breath replying to Gino- my opinion of him still holds ( "what he has to say is unimportant and we do not hear his words."). But what more do you have to say than men with machine guns hiding inside another faith's church? Aren't there international laws against that? Isn't that desecration of a holy place? Isn't it pretty much cowardly?

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 7:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

Why do you support Israel?

I conjure it's a "Holy Land" thing, Bethlehem & all.
(Also not being snarky)

The laughing Chrisisall

Last I heard, after Palestinian militants with machine guns seized the Church of the Nativity, and held the monks there hostage, Bethleham was in the West Bank, in the area administered by the Palestinian Authority.

I take it you hold the Palestinian authorities responsible for what happens on their turf then. Do you hold the U.S. government responsible for 9/11 as well? After all, it was on land that WE administered, right?

For the record, I'd think that hiding out in a church is pretty cowardly. Almost as cowardly as bombing one.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 7:53 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

Why do you support Israel?

I conjure it's a "Holy Land" thing, Bethlehem & all.
(Also not being snarky)

The laughing Chrisisall

Last I heard, after Palestinian militants with machine guns seized the Church of the Nativity, and held the monks there hostage, Bethleham was in the West Bank, in the area administered by the Palestinian Authority.

I take it you hold the Palestinian authorities responsible for what happens on their turf then.

I meant no assignment of responsibility. Gino asked why Chris supported Israel. Chris replied that it was because of the Holy Land thing, and mentioned Bethleham. I wished to point out that Bethleham is in the West Bank, not in the nation of Israel, on real estate that is not part of a state of Palestine, since there is no such, but is administered by the Palestinian Authority.

I would suggest that, a long time ago, in a philosophy class I took, they defined a political state as "a legitimate monopoly on the use of force and violence." By that standard, if there had been a state of Palestine then, it would have been responsible.

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 8:01 AM

Thanks for clarifying. I wasn't sure what you were getting at. Much better now, though.

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 8:10 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Car park = good

Museum of tolerance = bad

Got it.

The car park is owned by Israeli jews, so it must be good.

Plus they earn a tidy profit using inside info to sell it to jews in USA.

Win win!

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 8:37 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:

The car park is owned by Israeli jews, so it must be good.

Plus they earn a tidy profit using inside info to sell it to jews in USA.

Win win!

Inside info on a car park ?

Director: Bureau of Bigfoot Affairs

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 8:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by participant:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
do the Palestinians consider all of Israel "an ancient Muslim cemetery”.

I'm surprised the Muslims didn't claim their was a billion graves and then start some rent-a-crowd riot
or amp up the Propaganda with a Pallywood report

That's one of the worst things about the middle east, you couldn't throw a rock without it landing on some patch that some group of religious assholes have already laid claim to

PN is hardly unbiased
he is a proven to be an anti-Jewish hating A-hole

I don't pick sides, in hindsight back in the 50s when all this sh*t was starting to kick off I would bought up land and given the Jews and the Arabs they own separate little islands in the middle of nowhere

Then turned the area into a waste dump for toxic chemicals
That's the only productive thing that can ever happen this region

Western economies are in the shitter yet the Middle East still wants to bleed us all dry
Both these racist assholes will be butting heads for the next 200 years. We should give them nothing, stop giving the Jews money and guns, stop giving the Muslims money and aid.
These people will deliver nothing, the Afghans bankrupted the Soviets and the SandBox almost bankrupted the mighty Roman Empire
Don't give them money, guns, aid...give them nothing!
Everything they are given turns to cancer.
They don't deserve anything from us

Boycott the middle east

If you see it on the news switch it off because its just the SameOldShit everyday

I agree somewhat with your solution, cut them all off until a reasonable solution is hammered out...

But your video...

I don't think it actually is a 60 minutes segment, cant find any part of it on their website ?

http://www.cbsnews.com/1770-5_162-0.html?query=pallywood&tag=srch&sear
chtype=cbsSearch

Kind of the same sort of fraud you are complaining about isn't it ? I mean why try to look like a respected news program when you are not...

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 8:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Car park = good

Museum of tolerance = bad

Got it.

Director: Bureau of Bigfoot Affairs

They say they did protest the building of the carpark to the extent they were allowed to back in the day...

Protest there is still a rough thing

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/02/20102810542115493
2.html

" Rights group targeted

In a separate incident, Israeli military officials raided offices of Stop the Wall, a human-rights group that campaigns against the construction of the West Bank separation barrier. "

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 12:57 PM

Well Chris,

The Vatican, the monks, the Palestinians and myself are all claiming the Palestinians went into the church to get sanctuary, which was given; in order to escape the gun wielding Israeli army mob that was pursuing them. Additionally the same sources say all the deaths, and all the damage to the church was caused by the Israelis in this incident.

NewOldBrown Toilet Paper, and a Jewish website I posted ( toilet paper offered nothing at all to back its position as usual ) contends my position to be a " tissue of lies " ( lol )

You tell me who is " full of shit " ( lmao )

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 2:10 PM

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 3:13 PM

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/02/20102914392027796
2.html

Israel denies NGOs work permits

The Israeli interior ministry has stopped issuing work permits to foreigners working for international non-governmental organisations (NGOs).

In the last few weeks, NGO staff have been given tourist visas instead, making it virtually impossible for them to carry out their work.

The new Israeli policy affects 120 international NGOs, many of which provide vital developmental and humanitarian aid to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza.

Many NGO members have said that Israel's actions are illegal because the country is obligated under Geneva and humanitarian law to issue them visas and let them work freely there.

So first drive the press out, then the aid workers, hmmmm what next

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 3:54 PM

Quote:
So first drive the press out, then the aid workers, hmmmm what next?

If history is any guide, next they fire up the ovens and start up the "showers", or send 'em to work in the killing fields.

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 10:48 PM

OUT2THEBLACK

Quote:
Originally posted by Littlebird:

Very sad indeed.

Zionists = psychopath's

Really relevant commentary and news , at this link :

http://www.alanhart.net/

Zionism Unmasked: A Fairy Tale That’s Become a Terrifying Nightmare

by Alan Hart / February 12th, 2010

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 11:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by out2theblack:
Quote:
Originally posted by Littlebird:

Very sad indeed.

Zionists = psychopath's

Really relevant commentary and news , at this link :

http://www.alanhart.net/

Zionism Unmasked: A Fairy Tale That’s Become a Terrifying Nightmare

by Alan Hart / February 12th, 2010

The crazy thing I think the agenda is being driven by an minority even in Jewish Israel. I have read many articles about how they oppose Israeli policy but their voices are squashed as well.

Of the five Jewish folk I know ( 2 couples and a single guy ) 3 oppose what Israel is doing and feel it puts their religion in a bad light across the world, one doesn't want to talk about it at all, and the single guy ( moved here from the Ukraine ) and is Israel right or wrong, and kill all the arabs and blacks, etc... Worked with this guy for a while, 2 guys from Jamacia, a guy from India and 3 other white guys on the crew including a guy from Serbia... This guy went on and on, black this, arab that... and then it was the serbian who told him to shut the hell up or he was going to gut him then and there...

The Ukrainian Jewish guy was moved to another job the next day and I haven't heard from him since.

Both couples were second generation Canadians, and the one who didn't want to talk about it was the wife who converted before she married. Maybe that makes a difference ?

Anyway Interesting website, thanks

" What is a Zionist today?

Short answer: One, not necessarily a Jew, who (to quote Balfour) supports the Zionist state of Israel “right or wrong” and who cannot or will not admit that a terrible wrong was done to the Palestinians by Zionism – a wrong that must be acknowledged and then corrected on terms acceptable to the Palestinians if there is ever to be peace and the countdown to catastrophe for all is to be stopped. The Arab word for the catastrophe of the original dispossession of the Palestinians is Nakba. In my view, Zionism’s Nakba denial is as obscene and as evil as denial of the Nazi holocaust. "

very on point

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Monday, February 15, 2010 10:17 AM

Mind you, are some of these " settlements " acting outside of government control, or does the Israeli gov just turn a blind eye ?

Israeli settlers disobey the order to stop building

At least 29 Israeli settlements in the West Bank are violating a government-ordered pause in building activity, the Israeli Defence Ministry has said.

The information was released in response to a question asked in Israel's parliament, the Knesset.

A pressure group says there are at least four more settlements disregarding the government order.

The group, Peace Now, says Jewish settlers are working during the night and on the sabbath to avoid notice.

Peace Now says building work is continuing in at least 33 settlements in violation of an order to stop made by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in November.

Stalled talks

The Israeli newspaper Haaretz said they have learned the government was looking at ways to enforce the no-building rule.

In November, the government of Benjamin Netanyahu ordered a 10-month cessation of building new settlements.

According to Peace Now, building on existing settlements has continued.

The information was released by the defence ministry following a question asked by Haim Oron of the left-wing Meretz party.

US attempts to revive peace talks have stalled over the Jewish settlement issue.

Palestinians say they will not return to peace talks unless Israel stops settlement building in the West Bank.

Israel has a long-standing commitment under an existing peace plan to stop settlement growth.

But the Israeli government has temporarily curbed construction as a goodwill gesture, though not in East Jerusalem.

All settlements in the the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, are considered illegal under international law, although Israel disputes this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8516223.stm

the expression even paranoids have enemys comes to mind

perhaps even extremists have wingnuts ?

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Monday, February 15, 2010 11:33 AM

Thank's Gino and all for your posts on this thread.

Operation Cast Lead was a real eye opener for me. What I have learned since then about the Zionists and their occupation of the land has shocked and appalled me. That, added to fact that the US sends them outrageous amounts of money, and then the nukes they have, truly disgusts and scares me.

Israeli Women Soldiers Break the Silence
by Ira Chernus
Common Dreams, February 1, 2010
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/02/01-3

What's it like to be a woman serving in the Israeli occupation force in the West Bank? Is a woman's experience as an occupier any different than a man's? Yes indeed, say some women who have just broken their silence and offered a glimpse into the grim reality of the occupation.

"A female combat soldier needs to prove more," one explains. "A female soldier who beats up others is a serious fighter...When I arrived there was another female [who] was there before me...Everyone spoke of how impressive she is because she humiliates Arabs without any problem. That was the indicator. You have to see her, the way
she humiliates, the way she slaps them, wow, she really slapped that guy."

This "impressive" woman is not a rare exception. "We discovered that the girls try to be even more violent and brutal than the boys, just to become one of the guys," says Dana Golan, director of Breaking the Silence, the Israeli organization that has just released a report with testimony from some 50 Israeli women who are veterans
of the occupation.

The report "indicates how violence was deeply rooted in the daily routine," according to an article in Yediot Aharonot < http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3841480,00.html>, one of Israel's most widely-read newspapers, full of disturbing quotes from the women. One who served at the Erez crossing between Israel and Gaza
explained that "there was a procedure in which before you release a Palestinian back into the Strip -- you take him inside the tent and beat him. ... together with the commanders."

For Israelis who care to pay attention, another revelation of routine violence, sanctioned and sometimes even led by officers, hardly comes as news. Breaking the Silence has been offering the Israeli public such eyewitness testimony from Israeli soldiers since 2004. What is news is the first insight into the distinctive experience
of women:

"The female soldiers repeatedly mention the particular difficulties they had as women, who had to prove that to were ‘fighters' in the midst of the goading male soldiers on the one hand, and the Palestinians, who have a hard time handling women in uniform on the other hand."

One woman recalled an incident several years ago when a Palestinian man laughed at her, because (or so she thought) she was a woman in uniform. She had to "salvage her self-respect," she says. So she moved close to the man, "as if I was about to kiss him. I told him, 'Come, come, what are you afraid of? Come to me!' And I hit him
in the balls. I told him, 'Why aren't you laughing?' He was in shock, and then he realized ... not to laugh."

"It shouldn't reach such a situation," the woman says now. "The system is deeply flawed. The entire administration, the way things are run, it's not right."

Palestinian women have a distinctive experience, too. "Was there abuse of women?", an interviewer asked. "Yes," a woman soldier replied. "Slaps, that kind of thing. Mainly slaps. ... It was mainly the female combat soldiers who beat people. ... But also men, they had no problem slapping a woman around. If she screamed, they'd say,
'Shut it,' with another slap. A routine of violence. There were also those who didn't take part, but everyone knew it happened."

Sometimes, as the Breaking the Silence report indicates, the level of brutality grows beyond comprehension: a five year old child beaten; a nine year old who "posed no danger" shot to death; another child with both arms and both legs intentionally broken. The Yediot Aharonoth article offers a series of such horrifying incidents.
When the full report is available on the Breaking the Silence website < http://www.shovrimshtika.org/index_e.asp>, it will be surely include even more heart-breaking tales.

Each soldier, male or female, is responsible for their own individual actions, of course. But this report raises disturbing questions about the society that requires them to serve in the military and then sends them on such a brutalizing mission, one that dehumanizes the perpetrators as well as their victims.

Most disturbing, perhaps, is their common explanation for the violence the inflict: The soldiers' daily routine in the Occupied Territories "is boring, so we'd create some action. We'd get on the radio, and say they threw stones at us, then someone would be arrested, they'd start investigating him... There was a policewoman, she
was bored, so okay, she said they threw stones at her. They asked her who threw them. 'I don't know, two in grey shirts, I didn't manage to see them.' They catch two guys with grey shirts... beat them. Is it them? 'No, I don't think so.' Okay, a whole incident, people get beaten up. Nothing happened that day."

Another woman, describing a common ritual of humiliating and beating Palestinians at checkpoints, agreed: "It could go on for hours, depending on how bored they are. A shift is eight hours long, the times must be passed somehow."

The boredom is not a gendered experience. I heard exactly the same thing last year from a young Israeli man, now actively working to oppose the occupation. When he manned a checkpoint, at the tender age of 18, he would start each day intent on treating Palestinians humanely, he said. But as the hours went on -- as the boredom, the
occasional inevitable conflicts, and often the oppressive heat, grew -- he would become more irritable, more violent, more likely to abuse his power.

Boredom and its minor irritations can easily lead young people, many of them still teenagers, to commit senseless violence. We see it happening in civilian life in most every nation, far too often. But when we see it we call it anti-social and dysfunctional, a problem to be addressed by society. We assume that society at large has
a different norm, a more constructive way of dealing with boredom, which should be taught to the misbehaving youth.

Perhaps antisocial violence, wherever it occurs, is always a symptom of a whole society's dysfunction. But in this case the connection between individual and society is especially obvious and glaring. The antisocial Israeli youth are wearing their nation's uniform, acting (sometimes under orders) in the name of "national security,"
often praised for their violent behavior, and virtually never disciplined no matter how far they go.

They've grown up in a Jewish society that tends to treat Palestinians (not always, but far too often) as inherently dangerous, evil, inferior, and deserving whatever harm comes to them. It's hardly surprising that many of them would so easily cross the moral line into the realm of inhumanity.

Yet they've also grown up in a society that teaches them basic moral standards that should apply to all people. Most of the women interviewed in the report say they knew that what they were seeing, and sometimes doing, was wrong. But very few lodged any complaints, fearing the consequences if they spoke up. "I have to make a switch
in my head and keep hating the Arabs and justify the Jews," one explained.

Now, these women, like their male colleagues, must live with the consequences of participating in a brutal occupation that many realize is a terrible moral, as well as political, mistake. Jewish Israeli society must live with the consequences of putting its young people into such an agonizing situation, where moral contradiction is
an everyday fact of life. Worst of all, Palestinian society must go on paying the price for Israel's failure to bring its reality in line with its proclaimed principles.

Ira Chernus is Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Colorado at Boulder. Read more of his writing on Israel, Palestine, and the U.S. on his blog < http://chernus.wordpress.com/>.

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 8:35 AM

Thank you Littlebird

that is really interesting, how women are subtly encouraged to become quite aggressive...

While in other militarys that mindset doesn't seem to exist

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8511010.stm

Women at war: Sexual violence in the US military

Helena Merriman reports on a woman whose experience of sexual assault, while serving in the US Air Force in Afghanistan, turned her into a campaigner for the welfare of service women.

Marti Ribeiro was born into a military family.

Her grandfather and father were both in the Air Force - and all her life she had wanted to join the armed forces.

I put my weapon down and walked away to smoke a cigarette and that was when I was attacked
Marti Ribeiro

After she finished school she joined the Air Force Reserves and a few years later, in March 2003, she was deployed to Iraq.

While she loved her job as a public affairs specialist, from the time she arrived she was routinely harassed and called Air Force Barbie.

"I had no idea how difficult it would be," she told the BBC World Service.

"My father, who is a retired military colonel, thought the world of me for joining the military.

WOMEN AT WAR
The conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan are the first in which tens of thousands of women have fought alongside men for prolonged periods. This week the BBC World Service is taking an in-depth look at women's stories from the front line.

"I never saw the personality traits in him that I saw in the military - I never saw what I was getting into."

In 2006 she was in Afghanistan.

"You're supposed to carry your weapon at all times in a combat zone," she said.

"But I put my weapon down and walked away to smoke a cigarette and that was when I was attacked."

She was then dragged behind some power generators and raped.

"If I had kept my weapon maybe I would have been able to prevent it," she says.

"But if I had used it I would probably have ended up in jail."

She went to the authorities but they told her that if she filed a claim, she would be charged with dereliction of duty for leaving her weapon unattended in a combat zone - an offence for which you can be court-martialled.

So she kept quiet and the man who attacked her went unpunished.

"It would be my word over his and they are not going to take my word over his," she said.

When she returned from Afghanistan, she did not talk to anyone about what happened. She says she felt it was all her fault.

'Heartbreaking' phone calls

Congressional leaders, who have been holding hearings this month on sexual assault in the armed forces, say that more needs to be done to tackle what recent studies indicate is a widespread problem.

Once you have been raped in the military you are most likely to be raped over and over
Congresswoman Loretta Sanchez

In 2003, in a survey of female veterans conducted by the University of Iowa, funded by the US Department of Defense, 30% of the 500 female veterans interviewed reported an attempted or completed rape.

Equally worryingly, the Department of Defense estimated in its 2009 annual report on sexual assault, that around 90% of rapes in the military are never reported.

Congresswoman Loretta Sanchez, who sits on the Military Personnel Subcommittee, successfully lobbied last year for the development of a Sexual Assault Database to encourage accountability within the Armed Forces.

"There are plenty of phone calls that come into my office of alleged assault of women by our military men," she says.

"They are heartbreaking. Some women don't want to go public with it, some have gone public with it and they've been drilled out of the military.

"I'm told that the statistics are that once you have been raped in the military you are most likely to be raped over and over."

She says that not enough prosecutions are happening and that while the Pentagon is taking it more seriously, big changes still need to be made.

"Why is it that when a woman alleges rape, the outcome shows that the man who supposedly did this was demoted or moved to another unit? I want to know why this is happening!"

Predators

Dr Kaye Whitley, Director of the US Department of Defense's Sexual Assault Prevention and Response Office (Sapro), says it can be very hard for victims to report a sexual assault.

"We do know that being sexually assaulted takes a great human toll on an individual and there are all kinds of barriers to keep people from wanting to come forward," she says.

More and more commanders are referring these cases to court martial
Dr Kaye Whitley, Sapro

One of these barriers, she explains, is that after someone has reported an assault in the US military: "Their command knows, everyone in the unit knows, and it affects 'unit-readiness'."

For this reason there is now a new "restrictive reporting option" so that victims who are afraid of reporting an assault can get the medical care and counselling that they need, without their command having to be notified, and without having to participate in an investigation.

For those who do decide to report a sexual assault, Dr Whitley says the crime is taken seriously.

"We are finding that more and more commanders are referring these cases to court martial," she says.

"One of the things that one of our leaders recently said is that we want to get so good at prosecuting these guys that if there's anybody walking around out there that's a predator, they'll think that the military is the last place they want to end up.

"So we are working very hard on that, we think we can do better," she says.

'Cultural change'

The writer Helen Benedict has been looking into sexual violence in the military for a number of years, and has recently written a play on the subject. She has heard from women whose experiences have ranged from disrespect, to constant sexual harassment, to rape.

"There is a culture that if you report someone, you are seen as a weak soldier who failed to defend yourself," she says.

But she says this does not mean that women should not be serving in the army.

"It is the men who are committing a crime who have a problem. The military has to deal with them and not punish women by shutting them out from this career," she says.

Ms Benedict says that economics may help to bring about the cultural change that she says the army needs.

"The recession means more women are joining the military then ever before. So as women become less of a minority and rise in the ranks and get more power, hopefully the culture will begin to shift," she says.

Meanwhile, Marti Ribeiro is now trying to tackle the issue politically.

She is part of the Service Women's Action Network, which lobbies to improve the welfare of US servicewomen and women veterans.

"This is so that if once my daughter is eligible she turns to me and says 'I want to do what you did,' I can support her," she says.

"But if she asked me right now I would say 'No'."

Interesting Cultural Differences

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 12:05 PM

I found this interesting...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,677996,00.html

Israel's Conscience
High Court in Tel Aviv Flexes its Liberal Muscles

By Christoph Schult

On many issues, from human rights to social mores, Israel's high court is well out in front of society at large. Israeli politicians now want to clip the court's wings.

continues

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 1:28 PM

Interesting article. The Israeli High Court sounds fair and balanced. I was starting to get my hopes up and then read this part ...

"Israeli politicians, particularly the conservatives, feel that the court is too independent. To address this concern, the administration of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu plans to propose a law that would limit the power of the judges on Jerusalem's high court in an important way: The court would no longer have the power to invalidate laws enacted by the parliament. The government also wants to supervise the selection of judges more strictly in the future"

Also interesting is the fact that Israel does not even have a constitution.

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 1:48 PM

I really wish some of the pro Israel crowd would join into this discussion...

or even better someone living there.

There always seems to be people who are very pro Israel but don't want to talk about it, or against Israel but refuse to say why...

The way this thread is going ( to its credit ) is non racist ( none of PNs usual rant), but a clear look at policys and goings on. I think that is important, I also think there is another side of the coin, so here is hoping someone will speak up...

Like the Iran thread, these issues are going to decide alot the next couple of years.. we should know all we can

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 1:59 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

The only purpose of "equal rights" is the Communist overthrow of society, destruction of the family, doubling of taxation to the banksters, with eventual genocide of the indigenous population. This is according to trillionaire Rabbi David Rockefeller and kosher CIA agent Playboy Bunny Gloria Steinham.

Israel has always been a Communist dictatorship. Mandatory military draft of both men and women is destroying that nation, which will probably cease to exist very soon, since its jewish citizens are fleeing its own govt due to the draft (white slavery), or be forced to genocide their own citizens who are Arab Semites. Where does that get fun? The Israeli govt was founded and run by terrorist bombers, so what do you expect?

Kosher Hollywood funds predictive programming (brainwashing) to show "equal rights" in the military and in the future. No society can survive that myth. MEN CANNOT GIVE BIRTH TO BABIES NOR NURSE BABIES. WOMEN CANNOT RAISE SANE CHILDREN ON THEIR OWN. WOMEN CANNOT DO COMBAT AND FIGHT TO THE DEATH ON A DAILY BASIS. The workplace is often a combat situation, if only in metaphor.

GENOCIDE OF 55-MILLION BABIES IN USA IS NOT SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT, AND RESULTS IN AN INSANE LAWLESS SOCIETY THAT IS GUARANTEED TO COLLAPSE.

Endless wars to profit the jews RESULTS IN INSANE SOLDIERS WHO RAPE AND KILL EVEN AFTER RETURN TO CIVILIAN LIFE.

This insanity must stop, if a nation is to have true sustainable development. This requires eliminating "jews" from power as slavemasters (criminal warlords), and rewriting the scipts of "entertainment", mostly replaced with educational documentary programs that do NOT censor Truth and do NOT speak at a 4th grade level.

Sadly, scifi is one of the worst offenders of this brain damage, and must be replaced with -- dare I speak the word -- SCIENCE.

If these changes are not made, 90% of the world population will be genocided to profit the bankster jews. Israel is their wargame for the rest of the planet...

Quote:
The Complete Guide to Killing Non-Jews - by Rabbi Od Yosef Hai Yeshiva, 9 Nov 2009
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2009/11/19/updated-version-of-the-com
plete-guide-to-killing-non-jews/

British court indicts Israeli minister for warcrimes in Gaza
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=41155

Israeli Law of Return only allows citizenship for jews
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

The Life of an American Jew in Racist Marxist Israel Where Christianity Is a Felony
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/israel.htm

Semite.
1 a : a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and ARABS - b : a descendant of these peoples - 2 : a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic language.
—Merriam Webster Dictionary

"A 'Semite' is any person living in that area, including Arabs and Christians. It's time we start talking about 'The Other AntiSemitism'. A Semite is not a Jew living in America or Europe."
—Ralph Nader (Arab-American from Lebannon), Indy presidential candidate 2008, Reform Party presidential nominee in 2004, Green Party presidential nominee in 2000, Arab-American Business conference, C-SPAN, 2003

“Just the Jews are humans, the Non-Jews are no humans, but cattle.”
-Jewish Babylonian Talmud, Kerithuth 6b page 78, Jebhammoth 61a (goyim = human cattle)

“The Non-Jews have been created to serve the Jews as slaves.”
-Jewish Babylonian Talmud, Midrasch Talpioth 225

“The birth-rate of the Non-Jews has to be suppressed massively.”
-Jewish Babylonian Talmud, Zohar II, 4b

“Jews always have to try to deceive Non-Jews.”
-Jewish Babylonian Talmud, Zohar I, 168a

“Every Jew is allowed to use lies and perjury to bring a Non-Jew to ruin.”
-Jewish Babylonian Talmud, Babha Kama 113a

“The possessions of the goyim are like an ownerless desert, and everybody (every Jew) who seizes it, has acquired it.”
-Jewish Babylonian Talmud, IV/3/54b

“When the Messiah comes, all will be slaves of the Jews.”
-Jewish Babylonian Talmud, Erubin 43b

"Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away."
-Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, to Jonathan Pollard (convicted traitor and spy in USA) upon exiting Pollard's jail cell

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that. I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
-Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001

Quote:
CSPAN caller: "I, for one, am sick and tired of all these Jews coming on C-span and other stations and pushing us to go to war against our Muslim friends. They're willing to spend the last drop of American blood and treasure to get their way in the world. They have way too much power in this country. People like Wolfowitz and Feith and the other neo-cons that jewed us into Iraq; and now we're going to spend the next 60 years rehabilitating our soldiers. I'm sick and tired of it."

Michael Scheuer: I think that American foreign policy, of course, is eventually up to the American people. One of the big things that we've not been able to discuss in this country for the last 30 years is our policy towards the Israelis. Whether we want to be involved in fighting Israel's wars in the future is something that Americans should be able to talk about. They may vote yes. They may want to see their kids killed in Iraq or Yemen or somewhere else to protect Israel. But the question is, we need to talk about it. Ultimately Israel as a country is of no particular worth to the United states...strategically - they have no resources we need, their manpower is minimal, their association with us is a negative for the United states. Now that's a fact. What you want to do about that fact is entirely different, but for anyone to stand up in the United states and say that our support for Israel doesn't hurt us in the world - our our support for Hosni Mubarak's dictatorship doesn't hurt us, is to just defy reality."
-CSPAN, 5 Jan 2010
www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135427

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 2:03 PM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

The way this thread is going ( to its credit ) is non racist ( none of PNs usual rant),

Ya just HAD to provoke him....

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 2:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

The way this thread is going ( to its credit ) is non racist ( none of PNs usual rant),

Ya just HAD to provoke him....

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

I know....

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 5:02 PM

Dorit Beinisch .. Israeli Supreme Court President.

I can understand why the Government of Netanyahu wants to make changes in their High Court. This woman sounds like a real human being with feelings and everything.

Here is a little excerpt, the wiki article goes deeper.

Views and opinions

Beinisch has focused on government corruption and to ensuring that government institutions adhere to the law, with a particular emphasis placed on the IDF, the police and general security services. Among her many notable rulings as a Supreme Court Justice is a decision holding that parents cannot use corporal punishment. Even mild spanking, wrote Beinisch in 2000, “infringes on [the child’s] rights as a human being. It damages his body, his feelings, his dignity and his proper development,” and is therefore “forbidden today in our society.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorit_Beinisch

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 5:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Littlebird:

Dorit Beinisch .. Israeli Supreme Court President.

I can understand why the Government of Netanyahu wants to make changes in their High Court. This woman sounds like a real human being with feelings and everything.

Here is a little excerpt, the wiki article goes deeper.

Views and opinions

Beinisch has focused on government corruption and to ensuring that government institutions adhere to the law, with a particular emphasis placed on the IDF, the police and general security services. Among her many notable rulings as a Supreme Court Justice is a decision holding that parents cannot use corporal punishment. Even mild spanking, wrote Beinisch in 2000, “infringes on [the child’s] rights as a human being. It damages his body, his feelings, his dignity and his proper development,” and is therefore “forbidden today in our society.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorit_Beinisch

I read a little about her too...

On the plus side, if Netanyahu sacks her, maybe she would consider moving the the Hague...

She would be nearly ideal for the international criminal court, as a judge, or as a lead prosecutor...

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 6:01 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
The crazy thing I think the agenda is being driven by an minority even in Jewish Israel. I have read many articles about how they oppose Israeli policy but their voices are squashed as well.

That's one thing that seriously pissed me off too, not just at the damn Likud, but also at the people on the other side building bombs - cause it makes no logical sense to blow up folk with no stake in policy, no voice to change it, and thus little responsibility for it - who mostly oppose it in the first damned place.

But yeah, there's folks on either side that are exactly the same, point the finger and scream, and send fools to die to obtain and maintain power, so upsetting the status quo and removing the external "threat" that keeps them in power is the last thing they wanna do.

So both the bombers and the IDF slobs lobbing artillery at em are both in the same position, being sacrificed to wind up an enemy neither side really WANTS to defeat.

Were I Palestinian, THOSE assholes would get their throats cut in a hurry, being technically on "my" side or not, and followed up with a page from ole pufferfish...

Kim Jong may be a nasty little prick, but the man is NOT stupid, he got hisself a nuke, and he aimed it at Washington D.C. - which means instead of sending hordes of cannon fodder to die for political points, those on capitol hill making the decision to fuck with him will be the first ones sent to hell - and golly gee, look how FAST that bullshit sabre rattling STOPPED, ehe ?

If they wanna blow someone up about Israels policies, they oughta start with the fuckers making and approving those policies, not the shitheads carrying them out!

And that's the weak link too, cause Palestines decentralized and ad-hoc leadership, such as it is, is not as vulnerable to that tactic in reverse, cause of the high turnover due to casualties and the need for distributed authority for that very reason.

-F

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 6:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
The crazy thing I think the agenda is being driven by an minority even in Jewish Israel. I have read many articles about how they oppose Israeli policy but their voices are squashed as well.

That's one thing that seriously pissed me off too, not just at the damn Likud, but also at the people on the other side building bombs - cause it makes no logical sense to blow up folk with no stake in policy, no voice to change it, and thus little responsibility for it - who mostly oppose it in the first damned place.

But yeah, there's folks on either side that are exactly the same, point the finger and scream, and send fools to die to obtain and maintain power, so upsetting the status quo and removing the external "threat" that keeps them in power is the last thing they wanna do.

So both the bombers and the IDF slobs lobbing artillery at em are both in the same position, being sacrificed to wind up an enemy neither side really WANTS to defeat.

Were I Palestinian, THOSE assholes would get their throats cut in a hurry, being technically on "my" side or not, and followed up with a page from ole pufferfish...

Kim Jong may be a nasty little prick, but the man is NOT stupid, he got hisself a nuke, and he aimed it at Washington D.C. - which means instead of sending hordes of cannon fodder to die for political points, those on capitol hill making the decision to fuck with him will be the first ones sent to hell - and golly gee, look how FAST that bullshit sabre rattling STOPPED, ehe ?

If they wanna blow someone up about Israels policies, they oughta start with the fuckers making and approving those policies, not the shitheads carrying them out!

And that's the weak link too, cause Palestines decentralized and ad-hoc leadership, such as it is, is not as vulnerable to that tactic in reverse, cause of the high turnover due to casualties and the need for distributed authority for that very reason.

-F

Still ultimately responsible Frem, they pay the taxes, serve in their conscripted army, and fail to force change where that change is in their primary interest...

Between Gulf war 1, the Sanctions, and Gulf War 2... what maybe a million and a half Iraqs, maybe more went down so the US could say they got Saddam right ?

The leadership thing is a great point, the decentralized structure they created now gives them nobody to negotiate with, no one leadership fiqure the could come to a compromise with... Arfat was the closest hope, but he is gone...

And you see the US trying to do the same with the Taliban...

bad tactics, unless you want a forever war

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 11:01 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Still ultimately responsible Frem, they pay the taxes, serve in their conscripted army, and fail to force change where that change is in their primary interest...

Yeah, well, problem with that is that enough damned fools are still willing to kill em on orders of that government if they refuse to comply.

We got THAT problem right here, too.

End result of refusing to "play ball", is either thrown under the jail, if you meekly comply, or getting very dead if you don't - and if they start running out of jails, they'll just get the idiots still listenin to em to build more, like we do here.

Gettin incarcerated or dead doesn't help anyone, in fact often enough it provides just one more fucking excuse to crush internal dissent all the harder, so the only option left is slipping sand in the gears when no one is lookin, till the machine starts to fall apart.

Watchin those loose gears rattle is about all the satisfaction I have at the moment, but it's pretty satisfyin knowin that there's TEN TIMES more where that came from than when I started this...

They'd be well-advised to do the same.

-F

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 11:57 PM