REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Paul Ryan v. the President

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Friday, March 19, 2010 05:42
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Thursday, March 4, 2010 12:13 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



'Every argument has been made. Everything that there is to say about health care has been said, and just about everybody has said it," President Obama declared yesterday as he urged Democrats to steamroll his plan through Congress. What hasn't been heard, however, is even a shred of White House honesty about the true costs of ObamaCare, or its fiscal consequences.

Nearby, we reprint Wisconsin Republican Paul Ryan's remarks at the health summit last week, which methodically dismantle the falsehoods—there is no other way of putting it—that Mr. Obama has used to sell "reform" and repeated again yesterday. No one in the political class has even tried to refute Mr. Ryan's arguments, though he made them directly to the President and his allies, no doubt because they are irrefutable. If Democrats are willing to ignore overwhelming public opposition to ObamaCare and pass it anyway, then what's a trifling dispute over a couple of trillion dollars?

At his press conference yesterday, Mr. Obama claimed that "my proposal would bring down the cost of health care for millions—families, businesses and the federal government." He said it is "fully paid for" and "brings down our deficit by up to $1 trillion over the next two decades." Never before has a vast new entitlement been sold on the basis of fiscal responsibility, and one reason ObamaCare is so unpopular is that Americans understand the contradiction between untold new government subsidies and claims of spending restraint. They know a Big Con when they hear one.

Mr. Obama's fiscal assertions are possible only because of the fraudulent accounting and budget gimmicks that Democrats spent months calibrating. Readers can find the gory details in Mr. Ryan's pre-emptive rebuttal nearby, though one of the most egregious deceptions is that the bill counts 10 years of taxes but only six years of spending.


The real cost over a decade is about $2.3 trillion on paper, Mr. Ryan estimates, and even that is a lowball estimate considering how many people will flood to "free" health care and how many businesses will be induced to drop coverage. Mr. Obama claimed yesterday that the plan will cost "about $100 billion per year," but in fact the costs ramp up each year the program exists. The far more likely deficits are $460 billion over the first 10 years, and $1.4 trillion over the next 10.

What Mr. Ryan calls "probably the most cynical gimmick" deserves special attention, which is known in Washington as the "doc fix." Next month Medicare physician payments are scheduled to be cut by 22% and deeper thereafter, though Congress is sure to postpone the reductions as it always does. Failing to account for this inevitability takes nearly a quarter-trillion dollars off the ObamaCare books and by itself wipes out the "savings" that the White House continues to take credit for.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704548604575097602436388
116.html?mod=WSJ_newsreel_opinion



Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."


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Thursday, March 4, 2010 2:57 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Readers can find the gory details in Mr. Ryan's pre-emptive rebuttal nearby
I can't. Can you link to that?

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 6:07 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Helloooooo????

Lookit, big boy, unless I see actual numbers, Paul Ryan is just another Republican con artist saying that Federal Revenues go up when taxes go down.

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 6:24 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Oh, okay, I get it... all opinion, no facts.

*shrugs, walks away*

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 6:35 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Signy,

Does Auraptor have to respond to all queries in a set amount of time or just yours?

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 6:41 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Well, it's not like he hasn't been around...

Here's his most recent posts since putting this one up:

Quote:
Thursday, March 04, 2010 20:51
Should Animal Abusers, like Sex Offenders, Be Registered?

Thursday, March 04, 2010 20:38
Should Animal Abusers, like Sex Offenders, Be Registered?

Thursday, March 04, 2010 20:35
Should Animal Abusers, like Sex Offenders, Be Registered?

Thursday, March 04, 2010 19:42
Should Animal Abusers, like Sex Offenders, Be Registered?

Thursday, March 04, 2010 19:25
My nomination for funniest post in... EVER!

Thursday, March 04, 2010 18:48
My nomination for funniest post in... EVER!

Thursday, March 04, 2010 17:56
Students, professors to protest education cutbacks

Thursday, March 04, 2010 17:49
Jewel Staite to be guest on Warehouse 13




Of course, we completely understand if he doesn't actually HAVE any facts - or even any RapFacts™ - with which to bolster his position; we're rather used to that by now.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 6:48 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Signy,

Does Auraptor have to respond to all queries in a set amount of time or just yours?

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 7:02 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Signy,

Does Auraptor have to respond to all queries in a set amount of time or just yours?



BDN,

Does SignyM have to respond to all queries in a set amount of time or just yours?




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 7:33 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Helllllllooooooo.

Crickets chirping.

Oh well, I guess Signy is just ducking my question.

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 7:35 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)





BDN,

Does SignyM have to respond to all queries in a set amount of time or just yours?



Hellllooooooooo?

:crickets:



Looks like BDN is ducking my question.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 7:44 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Still nuthin'?

Yup, he's DEFINITELY ducking the question.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 9:05 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Still nuthin'?

Yup, he's DEFINITELY ducking the question.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


ducking in style




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Friday, March 5, 2010 3:39 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Oh, okay, I get it... all opinion, no facts.

*shrugs, walks away*


10 years of taxes for 6 years of spending, and you call that " all opinion " ?

Hard to debate the issue w/ one who refuses to see.

*isn't surprised , in the least *


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Friday, March 5, 2010 6:02 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
10 years of taxes for 6 years of spending
Do you take everything at face value, or just the peeps you agree with?

That's what Ryan said. Just like Bush said that Medicare RX coverage would only cost $400 billion (as he tossed the actual actuarials into the trash). So since anyone can... and often does... say anything, the CBO has made its own assessment, and not surprisingly it's different from Ryan's. Is the problem the assumptions that went into the CBO estimate? If so, that document should be easy to produce. Or is there a factor that's being ignored? If so, THAT should be easy to produce.

All I'm asking for is a link to Ryan's underlying rebuttal. Presumably that link will give me a link to further information. Since you're presenting what Ryan said as fact, that link should be easy for YOU to produce.

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Friday, March 5, 2010 6:06 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


BDN... that's very sweet of you to stick up for your sock puppet.


I waited three hours while Rappy was on the board. I don't expect him to respond within a set period of time, but I thought three hours was reasonable especially since I was only asking for a link to something I couldn't access, not a PhD dissertation.

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Friday, March 5, 2010 6:26 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


And once again the hot smelly wind - probably a fart - has evaported. But only after stinking up the place royally.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, March 5, 2010 6:52 AM

JONGSSTRAW


The "creative" accounting on this is nothing new. Everyone knows about it, and that's just how it is. The part of it that I find hard to believe that ANYONE would want is .....you would have to pay monthly premiums until 2014 before you can get any benefits. That's like making car payments for a car you're not going to get for 4 years. What person would ever go for that?

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Friday, March 5, 2010 6:54 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Jong... do YOU have a link to what's going on?

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Friday, March 5, 2010 7:00 AM

JONGSSTRAW


The 4-year waiting period has never been denied by Obama or any Democrat. By doing that, and by "hiding" the 1/4 trillion dollar Medicare doctor "fix" in the jobs bill, that's how the CBO can score it positively for Obama. It's masterful. Signy, there's probably a zillion links on these subjects, but my "info" on this just comes from Congressmen appearing in the media themselves. As I said, I've never seen anyone deny any of this, they usually find a way to positively explain and justify it.

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Friday, March 5, 2010 7:14 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Not looking for a denial, just looking for the details, hopefully in one place. Much heat, and little light, has been generated by the health care debate. I've been really busy the past few months, and would appreciate a link to something I can peruse in my free time. So if you know of a credible source which has the info, I'd be much obliged.

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Friday, March 5, 2010 7:42 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Not familiar with the source here, trying to find others...
http://www.northstarnational.com/2009/12/21/obamacare-taxes-start-now-
benefits-2014-ok-stash-money-wait-spend-it-you/

This one I post knowing it will not be accepted as credible by most here...but the benefits timetable facts seem hard to find...

http://www.dickmorris.com/blog/2009/12/22/day-one-how-obamacare-will-a
lienate-americans/

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Friday, March 5, 2010 7:50 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Thanks Jong.

I work very long days, get up at stupid o'clock in the AM, miss the new shows (such as they are), even miss the show I WANT to see, so I get most of my news from the inet.

Thanks again. Much obliged.

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Friday, March 5, 2010 8:03 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


So that strange, smelly wind is whistling along, having put up something without a cite, as usual, so nobody can contest it's "facts". I don't pay any attention anymore to grossly partisan arguments which I can't look up and judge for myself.

And politicians fake/lie/slant facts daily...especially, it seems at this time, those DESPERATE to keep health care reform from happening. They'll say/do anything, that much is obvious--just the FACT (as proven by videos) that they were in favor of things, even co-sponsored them, in the past, which they now rail against.

Whatever the source might have been (if there was one), it's not debatable on two counts:

1) No source cited, ergo it could come from anywhere or nowhere; and

2) Politicians will say anything, fake any numbers, to further their goals.

Just sayin'. Going to walk the dogs now...that was three minutes I'll never get back in my life. Maybe there'll be more valid debates going when I get back...

What was that lovely definition again? The one about oxygen and trees and Fuckfarts? Have to find that one, it's a keeper! Oh, yeah, I found it:
Quote:
Oxygen Stealer:

Closely related to the Fuckwit family, a person who is a complete waste of O2 and would do the world a favour by not breathing it. Usually can be replaced by a half dozen trees to do the world some good and further the advancement of the Human Gene pool by not existing.
I love it!


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, March 5, 2010 8:10 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Thanks Jong.

I work very long days, get up at stupid o'clock in the AM, miss the new shows (such as they are), even miss the show I WANT to see, so I get most of my news from the inet.

Thanks again. Much obliged.

I hope your long days and hard work are being noticed and appreciated.

As for the Obamacare benefits timetable...since I really could not find a "neutral" source article on the facts, I am re-classifying my previous comments as just "gossip".

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 5:45 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
10 years of taxes for 6 years of spending
Do you take everything at face value, or just the peeps you agree with?

That's what Ryan said. Just like Bush said that Medicare RX coverage would only cost $400 billion (as he tossed the actual actuarials into the trash). So since anyone can... and often does... say anything, the CBO has made its own assessment, and not surprisingly it's different from Ryan's. Is the problem the assumptions that went into the CBO estimate? If so, that document should be easy to produce. Or is there a factor that's being ignored? If so, THAT should be easy to produce.

All I'm asking for is a link to Ryan's underlying rebuttal. Presumably that link will give me a link to further information. Since you're presenting what Ryan said as fact, that link should be easy for YOU to produce.



Don't forget, Signy - the Republicans ALSO said that Obama tripled the deficit in his first year. Hell, Hannity went so far as to claim that Obama QUADRUPLED it.

And it's an outright lie. 100% false. Not one bit true. But Rappy (and others who have a problem with the President being black) will buy into that one hook, line, and sinker. Well, at least until Obama outlaws sport fishing, right? ;)




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Friday, March 19, 2010 5:42 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, I looked into the issue. The fact is that so many part of the health care bill start at so many different times its hard to define when "the" costs and "the" benefits start rolling in. In general, the payments come first and the benefits roll out later, but it's not as clear-cut a line as people insinuate bc some things start contemporaneously.

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