Brilliant movies that go south toward the end. by OPPYH

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Brilliant movies that go south toward the end.

POSTED BY: OPPYH
UPDATED: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 02:19
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VIEWED: 3277
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Sunday, March 28, 2010 6:38 AM

Just finished watching Antichrist with William Defoe on streaming Netflix.

Started out a little slow, but by the middle I was hooked. Amazing atmosphere, acting was astounding. Could this be my new favorite horror film of all time? Well....yeah turns out it could have been if the ending(act 4) didn't suck. 2/5 stars for me.

Oh well, I'll always have the classics.

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70's TV FOREVER

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Sunday, March 28, 2010 7:16 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

I hear you OPPYH. Horror films do tend to be the main protagonists of this syndrome. Just thinking of the top of my head:

Drag me to hell
Zombieland
Pulse
Wrong turn
Jeepers Creepers

All sort of wane in the last act. Shame.

However like you say : There are the classics.

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Sunday, March 28, 2010 1:18 PM

GWEK

Many comedies fly off the rails in the third act.

The Hollywood formula for a 2 hour movie is 30 minutes of setup (Act One), 60 minutes of complication (Act Two), and 30 minutes of resolution (Act Three).

This structure is fine for a drama or an action flick with enough budget to pull off 30 minutes of slam-bang resolution, but for many comedies and horror movies, 30 minutes (or a quarter of the movie) is simply not needed.

Unfortunately, until the Hollywood formula changes (not very likely), we're going to wind up with otherwise-quality movies that start to drag near the end.

Of course, that probably beats movies that aren't good overall, which often start to drag much earlier (generally before they get deep into Act Two).

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Sunday, March 28, 2010 10:25 PM

BIGRICHARD

I have to admit, I saw Antichrist at my local film festival earlier this year, and I didn't like it at all.
I'll agree, for the most part, it looked brilliant, and the acting was quite brilliant, but the script, direction and editing irritated me to no end.

I will DEFINITELY agree that the start is much better than the end. The start I found bareable, at least, sometimes quite compelling, but around the halfway mark, it just got ridiculous (talking fox included).

But too many times I was irritated by camera/editing/script decisions and overall character directions, and this, coupled with the final act, led to me pretty much hating the time I spent watching this film.

What were your thoughts on these things?
(Often in 'film circles' my thoughts regarding the film (and it's film maker, Von Trier, in general) have been met with very hostile remarks, often becoming very personal. eg. "If you didn't like it, it's because you're a stupid fool who didn't understand it or what good cinema is!" and yes, someone actually said that to me.)

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Sunday, March 28, 2010 11:03 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Originally posted by BigRichard:

Quote:
(Often in 'film circles' my thoughts regarding the film (and it's film maker, Von Trier, in general) have been met with very hostile remarks, often becoming very personal. eg. "If you didn't like it, it's because you're a stupid fool who didn't understand it or what good cinema is!" and yes, someone actually said that to me.)

Hey BigRichard. I often come across such hostilities with certain films and filmakers. Von Trier is one such director. Why it happens? Who knows? I often put it down to people mistaking heavy handed drama/melodrama for intellect. Which when faced with a counterpoint that maybe doesn't rejoyce in a films 'bleakness' that, that counterpoint must be from a moron.

I remember in the 90's when independent cinema was all the rage, you couldn't say a word against any of them. It was ridiculous. Glad that's over....

I haven't seen antichrist and I probably will never do so with any kind of intention. I remember going to see Von Trier's The Idiots and I vowed after that farce to never see one of his films again.

Oh and whoever said that to you was probably threatened by the films point of view and rather than have the stones to contradict it, they'd rather just appear to like it so as not to have their intelligence brought into question...

Maybe :D

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Sunday, March 28, 2010 11:30 PM

BIGRICHARD

Haha oh, I'd love to see you say that to them!
I personally, when in a conversation like that described, just bail. It's so much easier, and less frustrating. Especially when they go "What stupid films do you love then?"
"Oh, Serenity, Pan's Labyrinth, Children of Men, The Fountain."
"Oh, you mean fantastical crap about pixies and horsies and schmootzy love?"

Unfortunately I'm a film student. (Currently co-writing ((and later editing)) a pilot for a mini-series!)
This means that my course is filled with many such people, and trying to give opinion and example in classes can be extremely difficult, which means I usually don't bother. One of my lecturers is actually a multiple-time director, and he makes those "heavy-handed drama/melodrama" films. (He showed us a clip from one of his films once...it was a film about druggies, who, in the scene, were paid to have sex in front of an old man, who...pleasured himself, while they did. Fun, inclass experience...)

Som, Any thoughts on David Lynch or Gus Van Sant? I actually don't think I've seen any Lynch yet, although I'm more appealed to his stuff than Von Trier. In regards to Van Sant, I saw Elephant, which had been extremely hyped up by people in my course, and I thought it was way-overrated. But I haven't dismissed him completely yet, need to get around to watching Milk.

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Monday, March 29, 2010 12:14 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Hey BigRichard.

My god it's amazing how things haven't changed. I was, in my above post, going to relay to you my days at film college, but thought it wouldn't be relevant. But now I see after reading your post you're pretty much faced with the same thing I went through. It's uncanny. Same hot headed students, lecturers who pretend not to understand simple hollywood plots, while subjecting their students to their redundant creations which, supposedly, fly contrary to convention, and pretty much focus on those key factors you just mentioned. Drug abuse, sexual deviances, and misery! I lost count of how may times we saw films with these themes in them. One film even had a guy defecating onto the camera lens - yeah! I walked out after that.

As for presenting counterpoint I used to do it just so as not to lose sight of why I enjoyed cinema in the first place. Because in all seriousness I must admit it took me about five years after my course before I enjoyed film again. The course just ripped the whole thing to shreds. Basically if you enjoyed a film it was deemed as rubbish as a consequence. You just couldn't have a positive viewpoint on anything in that place.

David Lynch and Gus Von Saint.

Hmmmm. Ok my personal point of view is that I do overall enjoy David Lynch. Although I didn't get on with Blue Velvet or Wild at Heart, but I enjoyed Elephant Man, Dune and Eraserhead. I'm also into what he's been doing the last ten years or so with these character/plot metamorphosis notions - as with Lost HIghway and Mullhond Drive etc. But he is tricky and those are difficult films. He is first and foremost a surrealist, which brings about it's own dilemnas - some you like some you don't. I've come to the conclusion his work is best viewed as a collection. One follows the other and I find it easier to understand things from him If I do about a week or two of David Lynch films. The Straight Story is still one of my favourite films.

Van Saint - I struggle with. Maybe my own prejudices I don't know, but I endured Even Cowgirls get the Blues, My Own Private Idaho back in my college days and found it excrutiating to watch! I think he's a director that got lucky with Good Will Hunting (perhaps a little unfair of me) but thereafter I've found his stuff... Underwhelming. The Psycho thing is strange. Ill conceived as opposed to poor but certainly not the work of a class director. Elephant, I've not seen as it came with a particular 'hype' the likes of which I used to hear around the halls of my college, so I didn't bother.

Good top films by the way. Fantastical pixie crap n all ! Ha,Ha.

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Monday, March 29, 2010 12:43 AM

BIGRICHARD

So glad you understand! I do have a few kindred spirits in my course, which is excellent, as we always group up for things and make movies which go completely against what everyone else makes (drug, sexual, misery, like you said!) and it makes things a lot easier.

I have half good lecturers and half bad, which is giving me quite a poor attendance, as I frequently don't have the will to attend the classes with a lecturer whom I feel clashes with my views on film. Luckily, there are a few lecturers who share my passions.

One last semester, my scriptwriting teacher, started a class with "If I had to teach scriptwriting with only two films, that would be awful. But they'd probably be Toy Story and Fargo." He continued to talk about why, mentioning the writers of each. Of Toy Story, he mentioned "and Joss Whedon, famous for Buffy, which you will have heard of, and the criminally underrated Firefly series." I actually grinned massively at this, to which he laughed and said "and apparently there's at least one browncoat in the room." Anyway, where was I?

Basically everytime I get angry about people being snobby, I'll just go home and watch a movie that is something we'd never watch at uni. Serenity, Shaun of the Dead, The Fountain, Pan's Labyrinth, Let the Right One In. Usually your more 'genre' fare. That reminds me why I love film.

I'll have to check out some David Lynch. Elephant Man and Eraserhead I'm particularly interested in seeing, I might have to try The Straight Story as well, and Dune sounds like my cup of tea.

Any other particular movie suggestions?

Also, so very sorry for hijacking your thread OPPYH! Will stop soon, promise!

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Monday, March 29, 2010 4:09 AM

ZEEK

I'm going to say The Dark Knight. Batman vs Joker is great. The two play off each other so well that the movie is riveting. Right up until they try to split the focus with Two Face. Every time I rewatch the movie I find myself getting bored with every Two Face scene. I understand why he's important to the story, but I couldn't care less about him. The joker is scary because he could do anything at any time and he's got some good plans. Two Face is boring. He's a one trick pony and even when he does the trick 4 or 5 times it gets really really old.

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Monday, March 29, 2010 5:03 AM

BIGRICHARD

I understand where you're coming from. Personally, I love the whole thing, but I understand that Two-Face is a less interesting villain. I think the problem was that Two-Face's arc was so wrapped up in the one film. This should've been the set up film, with Joker as the main villain, and a pre Two-Face Harvey Dent. He could've turned right at the end or something and it would've been a lot more foreboding and menacing. Instead he was just a bit of a nuisance to Batman. Although I did like how they handled his story and his impact on the city of Gotham, I did think that his story was all over much too quickly. I think with more time to shine, Aaron Eckhardt could've done a brilliant job. That guy is awesome. See Thank You For Smoking if you haven't already.

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Monday, March 29, 2010 8:18 AM

OPPYH

Quote:
Originally posted by BigRichard:

But too many times I was irritated by camera/editing/script decisions and overall character directions, and this, coupled with the final act, led to me pretty much hating the time I spent watching this film.

What were your thoughts on these things?
(Often in 'film circles' my thoughts regarding the film (and it's film maker, Von Trier, in general) have been met with very hostile remarks, often becoming very personal. eg. "If you didn't like it, it's because you're a stupid fool who didn't understand it or what good cinema is!" and yes, someone actually said that to me.)

There is a fine line between art, and cinema. Kubrick had a way of meshing them perfectly(2001).
Antichrist to me was fascinating the entire way through the third act. Like I said, I thought it was very suspenseful, and atmospheric. However, the fourth act was completely pointless and all credibility for the first 3rd of the movie was lost because of it.

I often find myself in the trap of 'how I would have made the film'. Well I pushed that to the limit on this one and came up with a better ending on my own:

The son who died was the Antichrist, and in the seclusion of their cabin the parents notice strange occurrences that eventually lead to the end of the world amidst the battle of Angels and demons.
To me that would be sensible and intriguing, and not just another torture porn movie to forget.

-------------------------------------------------

70's TV FOREVER

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Monday, March 29, 2010 8:26 AM

OPPYH

Quote:
Originally posted by BigRichard:

Elephant Man and Eraserhead I'm particularly interested in seeing, I might have to try The Straight Story as well, and Dune sounds like my cup of tea.

Any other particular movie suggestions?

Oddly enough My favorite Lynch movie is the Straight Story.

My ideas of movie perfection are:

Housekeeping(1988)

Paris, Texas(1984)

Afterlife(Japanese film 1998)

Conrack(1971)

Close Encounters of the Third Kind(1978)

-------------------------------------------------

70's TV FOREVER

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Monday, March 29, 2010 8:27 AM

CHRISISALL

Final Cut was BRILLIANT

...until they went for a bang-up ending. Press STOP 10 minutes before the credits, and you have a great movie.

The laughing Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010

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Monday, March 29, 2010 9:55 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Originally posted by BigRichard:

Quote:
One last semester, my scriptwriting teacher, started a class with "If I had to teach scriptwriting with only two films, that would be awful. But they'd probably be Toy Story and Fargo." He continued to talk about why, mentioning the writers of each. Of Toy Story, he mentioned "and Joss Whedon, famous for Buffy, which you will have heard of, and the criminally underrated Firefly series." I actually grinned massively at this, to which he laughed and said "and apparently there's at least one browncoat in the room."

N I C E !!!!!!

Quote:
Any other particular movie suggestions?

Pheeeuw! Well there's a question. I'd need to know you're cinema history really but lets just see.

City of the Lost Children.
Angels with Dirty Faces
Maltese Falcon
Casablanca - Actually any Bogart!
Murder My Sweet
The Third Man
A Touch Of Evil
Kiss me Deadly
Invasion of the Body Snatchers (1956 version)
Jean De Florette and Manon De Source
White Heat
The Marx Brother - These guys crack me up. Night at the Opera, Day at the Races, A Night in Casablanca.
Cyrano De Bergerac.
L'apartment
The Apartment (Billy Wilder one)
Americana
Guns of Navarone
12 Angry Men
Wages of Fear (50's Version)
Lavender Hill Mob
Passport to Pimlico
A Matter of Life and Death.
Duel (technically a TV movie - but a fine piece nonetheless and the blue print for things like Jaws and Alien!) Worth a look!
Oh and pretty much any Hitchcock but my pick would be:
North By Northwest
Vertigo
Rear Window
Dial M For Murder

I had better stop really.

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Monday, March 29, 2010 12:55 PM

BIGRICHARD

OPPYH, definitely agree with that. Honestly, I didn't quite get into it at all, but I definitely was more intrigued by the start. I had a hard time believing the characters (not because of the acting, which was great, but the poor script and characterization), and it would often annoy me in scenes where something interesting would happen, and it would sort of just stay long enough to show you what was going on, then cut away from the characters, which removed any kind of emotion or connection for me. Mainly I just thought it looked nice, and atmospheric. The opening scene which everyone raves about, I thought, was fairly ordinary. The kid jumping out the window was ruined by the extra shot of him spinning around before he hit the ground.

Will have to check out Afterlife and Conrack. The others are great films, but I haven't seen those two.

CiA, I can't remember it exactly, but I still did like Final Cut. Robin Williams is brilliant.

Som, I've seen quite a few of them, but others shall go on 'The List'. Which at this point seems like a neverending wall of text. Thanks for the suggestions though!

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Tuesday, March 30, 2010 2:19 AM

KRELLEK

When I as an example watch dawn of dead(from was it 2005 or 2003 cannot remember) and in fact it seems to be a repeating part of Zombie movies in general,(they came to an island where they hoped they could be safe, and then they are getting overun by Zombies, and no mention if they survive, and in other words it seems very bleak for mankind

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