Spike has been lying for two years by Knibblet

ANGELUS ARCANUM

Spike has been lying for two years

POSTED BY: KNIBBLET
UPDATED: Wednesday, April 7, 2004 15:12
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VIEWED: 6403
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Friday, March 19, 2004 4:46 AM

Spike didn't intend to get his soul back. He didn't go down and fight demons and undergo torture to have his soul inflicted on him.

He was blindly furious that Buffy rejected him. His intent was to get the bloody chip out of his head so that he could go back and kill everyone around her.

He said that he wanted to be like he was before. No, he didn't want to have a soul - he wanted to be free of guilt and pain. He wanted to be the 'big bad' again.

He didn't get what he wanted and he's been lying for two years now.

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

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Friday, March 19, 2004 5:35 AM

HANS

According to comments by Joss and others, I think we were supposed to be fooled into thinking Spike was after a chip-removal, and all along he wanted a soul-insertion.

I personally found this a rather cheap way of manipulating the audience. I like the Spike character and want the reason he went to Africa to be that he was getting a soul...but based on the on-screen evidence I'm still convinced that he was acting selfishly (which, frankly, is a little more in character). In other words, I agree with you.

Hans

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Friday, March 19, 2004 6:44 AM

JUSTDAVID

Cynical much?
Spike spent alot of his non-chip vampire days with love as a major motivation. First with Drucilla, later with Buffy. After he tried to rape Buffy, he realized that as long he was still a monster inside, she would never love him. She loved Angel, Angel had a soul, so Spike was willing to do whatever it took to get a soul and make it so that Buffy could love him.

He wasn't blindly furious, he was fiercely determined.

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Friday, March 19, 2004 7:05 AM

MAUGWAI

Actually, I read an interview with James Marsters in which he said Joss originally intended Spike to want the chip out so he could kill Buffy, but the demon messed with him instead. Then, over the summer, Joss changed his mind and decided it would be better for Spike's development in season 7 if he wanted the soul.

"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

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Friday, March 19, 2004 7:09 AM

GHOULMAN

Spike was lieing. It's true.

It's just like Spike to say one thing and feel another. Just as he went to shoot Buffy with a shot-gun 'once and for all' - when he approches Buffy crying on the back steps he stops, reconsiders murder, then comforts her.

Spike was lieing... but too himself.

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Friday, March 19, 2004 7:14 AM

LISSA

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Spike was lieing. It's true.

It's just like Spike to say one thing and feel another. Just as he went to shoot Buffy with a shot-gun 'once and for all' - when he approches Buffy crying on the back steps he stops, reconsiders murder, then comforts her.

Spike was lieing... but too himself.

exactly! if you want my opinion, read that! lol

~lissa, spwhore

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Sunday, March 21, 2004 3:20 PM

TMURRIE

Ok, Spike said that he wished to return to his normal self, back to the way he was, so he could show Buffy. Everyone thought that he would finally get the chip out of his head. But as you saw, at the end we were all taken aback to the fact that he got his soul back, end of season 6, and one awesome cliff hanger. He really wanted his soul back, he got what he came for. The only people tricked was the audience, beacuse we thought Spike had other intentions. But he knew what he was doing. And he did it. And he thought everything would be better afterwards, like him and Buffy could be together. He wanted one thing with his soul, and got something else. Either way, he was looking for his soul.

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Sunday, March 21, 2004 7:29 PM

ANGELDOVE

Quote:
SPIKE: Get nice and comfy, Slayer. I'll be back. And when I do ... things are gonna change.

This is what Spike said, and I think yes we were supposed to believe that what he wanted was to get the chip removed and come back to kill her since he had just attempted to rape her, and was very upset by the fact that she didn't love him, and wouldn't sleep with him anymore. However, he never says that that is the reason he is leaving, all he says is that 'things are gonna change' I took this to mean that he would get her to love him, by getting his soul back. (Of course just as everyone else did I thought until he returned that his intentions were in no way altruistic). So I agree with tmurrie:

Quote:
Originally posted by tmurrie:
Ok, Spike said that he wished to return to his normal self, back to the way he was, so he could show Buffy. Everyone thought that he would finally get the chip out of his head. He really wanted his soul back, he got what he came for, we thought Spike had other intentions.

Quote:
He thought everything would be better afterwards, like him and Buffy could be together.

I know alot of people felt that because Spike had gone through so much trouble to get his sould back for the love of Buffy (those of us who believed that was his intention of course), thought that Buffy should have given him a chance since even without a soul he had loved her. I was very pleased with the fact that they never even kissed after that. They were far more intimate in every moment (the sleeping cuddled together, as well as the moment in the kitchen after they had spent that night together) and this made their affection for each other that much more poignant.

That is one of the reasons I love this quote from ATS:

Quote:
SPIKE:
You had a soul forced on you—as a curse. Make you suffer for all the horrible things you'd done. But me... I fought for my soul. Went through the demon trials. Almost did me in a dozen times over, but I kept fighting. 'Cause I knew it was the right thing to do.
It's my destiny.

ANGEL:
Really? Heard it was just to get into a girl's pants.

So right yet so wrong.

And in the end I will always be a Buffy-Angel shipper, my favorite two seasons of Buffy easily Seasons 2&3, in many aspects due to this relationship. So my ideal ending would be that they somehow end up together. Assuming, of course, SMG returns for the end.

However I know many, especially Spuffy fans, that will disagree with me.

I only fell is all.

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Sunday, March 21, 2004 11:58 PM

IDEFIX

and that's not even considering the many Buffy/Giles shippers out there.

I myself read mostly Buffy/Giles because I think it's the best fanfic but I'm flexible. Buffy/Spike and Buffy/Angel is ok for me too.

as long as we stay away from Riley I'm all fine. he's just too boring to watch or read about. I don't know exactly why but he get's on my nerves in no time.

I'm not sure about Spike and his motives and that's what makes Spike Spike and it's what we all adore him for, isn't it? the scene quoted above from "Fool For Love" where he first wanted to shoot Buffy because she had hurt him by saying he was beneath her and after seeing her in pain about her mother ended up asking her if there's something he could do is what really defines Spike for me. he's beyond cute in that scene and he never ever looses real credibility as a bad boy at the same time.

Angel is cute too but in a whole different way. sad puppy cute. and he tends to get boring unless he turns evil every once in a while and that's just a whole different kind of evil than Spike's bad days. he's really two people in one body whereas Spike is just not sure who he really is and how he wants to be.

both are interesting characters and they fit Buffy in their own way. I think they should leave it open. Buffy said it herself in Chosen, she isn't ready yet. that will probably not have changed in just one year. let her have her freedom. maybe there'll be a movie in a few years...

Idefix

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Monday, March 22, 2004 9:19 AM

GHOULMAN

??? Buffy/Giles fans???!!!??? You mean old crusty guys near 40 (like me) have a chance with teen age girls??? Yeeeaaa well, I will just walk away from that one.

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Monday, March 22, 2004 2:57 PM

MAUGWAI

Is my previous post invisible? I didn't make it up or anything, I swear. It was an interview in a magazine.

"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 12:26 AM

IDEFIX

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
??? Buffy/Giles fans???!!!??? You mean old crusty guys near 40 (like me) have a chance with teen age girls??? Yeeeaaa well, I will just walk away from that one.

not all of them but some. someone on the "WatcherGirls" yahoogroups said a few days back: "There are men who, like fine red wine, only improve with age. Anthony Stewart Head and Alexis Denisof are two of them."
and I tend to agree. but I'm not teenage any more. but neither is SMG.

for proof take a look at http://buffygiles.com/ or if you like it hot http://www.blastfurnace.org/ A. Manley Height is always worth reading.

Idefix

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Tuesday, March 23, 2004 5:04 AM

GHOULMAN

*Heh heh*, yea, I'm kidding but am I the only one really worried for any young girl on those websites? Man, it's funny being this age and 'fine wine'. It's true though... young girls are all over older guys like me.

... but in truth I had a crush on Willow.

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Wednesday, March 24, 2004 12:30 AM

ZORIAH

Ok first off, as we know Spike didn't need the chip out to hurt or kill Buffy. He could have killed her at anytime once he realised that the chip didn't work on her. Also it was definitely not his modus operandi to go after loved ones that was ANGELUS'S favored method of revenge. Spike when in a rage tended to fixate solely on his target. Like in Fool for Love - he knew it would hurt to try to kill Buffy but he didn't care, he took the shotgun to try. We have seen him work through the pain to hit Xander too when he had to get by him. The chip does not stop him from committing arson, running someone over, hiring demons to kill for him, exploding things etc. There is not one indication that he intended to harm anyone close to Buffy.

Yes he was angry, but in hindsight you can see the clues as to why. In his crypt he has flashbacks to that awful act, it's tearing him apart, he smashes a glass. He's angry at himself for doing the one thing he said he could/would never do: Hurt Buffy.

His conflict is that he is caught between being a monster and a man. He's a vampire, a demon - he should not be feeling love, he should not be feeling remorse for his actions. He shouldn't care about what he did, but he does.

He realises that he cannot give Buffy what she deserves. Not without a soul. This has been drummed into him all season, that he is filthy, unclean, he has no soul, how cna his love be real?, how can he understand what she is feeling, how can she trust a soulless demon?

Yes, he is angry and bitter and his love for Buffy, his weakness, as Lurky points out is the cause.

The writers tried to misdirect us, and even Spike goes on about how the chip is the problem. But if you examine the dialogue he never says he wants the chip out. After he completes the trials he demands what he came for and Lurky says "very well, we return your soul".

Besides the fact that Spike has never changed his story about wanting the soul, and everyone including sceptics like Xander, Giles and Angel have believed him (which is saying something isn't it?) - we also have 2 supernatural creatures who have talked about Spike's quest for a soul. The First taunted him in Lessons about Spike thinking getting the soul would have made a difference, that his intent to change for the better was fruitless:

MORPHING MONSTER (as THE MAYOR)
So what'd you think? You'd get your soul back and everything'd be Jim Dandy? Soul's slipperier than a greased weasel. Why do you think I sold mine? (laughs) Well, you probably thought that you'd be your own man, and I respect that, but...

MORPHING MONSTER (as THE MASTER)
Look at you. Trying to do what's right, just like her. You still don't get it.

And on AtS, in Hellbound - Parvayne also taunts him about his quest:

PAVAYNE (O.S.)
William the Bloody. Scourge and destroyer. But scratch the surface...

ARMLESS GHOST WOMAN
Little nancy, still crying for his mother.

PAVAYNE (O.S.)
Know all your hiddens, dirty red things you've done. Then fell in love. Won himself a soul. No more dirty things. Thinks himself special.

These beings are both trying to strip Spike down, destroy his resolve and convince him he's damned and will never be able to be good. Why would they do that if all along he had intended to be bad and get the chip out. And why not use his lie/intent to get the chip out not a soul against him then if that was the case? Souled beings can be bad, commit evil as we have seen with Faith, Warren and even Willow - and yet the First had to totally brainwash and trigger Spike to get him to kill again. Why not just go: Hey I know a way you can get back at those who have wronged you, I can get around the chip.....

All roads lead towards Spike having told the truth.

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Sunday, April 4, 2004 1:58 AM

EMBERS

THANK YOU ZORIAH! Someone who actually listens to the dialogue!
Of course Spike could have killed Buffy with the chip in, besides he never said anything about killing Buffy...that is only in the fevered brains of Spike-haters (who never ever listen to dialogue for some reason).
Spike wanted to 'give Buffy what she deserved'
and obviosly in the Buffyverse, and in Spike's own lovelorn heart, Buffy deserved a man with a soul.

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Wednesday, April 7, 2004 10:05 AM

LIZ

Quote:
Originally posted by maugwai:
Is my previous post invisible? I didn't make it up or anything, I swear. It was an interview in a magazine.

You're not invisible. But... it's so much nicer to come up with the reasons for the characters and make the plot fit in their world, rather than having an actual solid answer.
Midrash, i guess.
If you have a link or a way to find that article that'd help too

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Wednesday, April 7, 2004 10:16 AM

EMBERS

I saw your post, maugwai, but it was in direct opposition from interviews I have read...and besides it makes no sense: because obviously Spike COULD kill Buffy with the chip in...he knew he could, he had known it most of the year...
So either James mis-spoke or the interview was from season 4/5 when Spike DID want the chip out so he could kill Buffy.

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Wednesday, April 7, 2004 10:35 AM

LIZ

maugwai, is this the interview you were referring to?
http://actionadventure.about.com/library/weekly/2002/aa062402.htm

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Wednesday, April 7, 2004 3:12 PM

MAUGWAI

Quote:
liz wrote:
Wednesday, April 07, 2004 10:35
maugwai, is this the interview you were referring to?
http://actionadventure.about.com/library/weekly/2002/aa062402.htm

That's very similar to what he said, but that's not the interview. I was reading it in print in Barnes and Noble after season six aired. I think it was in Buffy Magazine. I'm determined to find it now.

(ED: Okay, I gave up. You can't get any Buffy articles without paying for them.)

But that interview does sound like it must have come after whatever I read. Perhaps I stand corrected. Of course, that still doesn't clarify whether or not Joss meant to do that.

"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

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