REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Steampunk Dreams

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Sunday, June 20, 2010 08:13
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Friday, June 18, 2010 4:26 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

In talking about alternative energy, I found myself wondering if things like steam power might make a comeback.

Then I remembered this:

http://www.rexresearch.com/besler/beslerst.htm

Which was something of a surprise when I first learned about it.

Of course, you still have to make the steam, and that takes some kind of fuel or energy source. I'm not sure the practice of converting energy to steam and then steam to motive power is practical. Maybe for high-power applications?

Still, I continue to wonder what uses for antique and outdated technology we might find in our future locomotive needs.

--Anthony

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Friday, June 18, 2010 4:30 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


TRAINS!!! They're all but gone out here on the West Coast...do you have ANY idea not just how much oil we could save, but how much less pollution there would be if trains caught on out here??? TONS!

We need trains on the West Coast. We need lots of them. Old train tracks have been converted to "multi-use pathways" here in Marin; we lost our last train about the time we sold our pizza parlor, 1980. Before that one went by the parlor fairly regularly. It's totally stupid to have people drive hours to work, alone in a car, when we could have trains. Yeah, we've got BART, but we could have SO much more!

Get us back to using trains. I don't know how it is in other states, but here, they're an endangered species...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


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Friday, June 18, 2010 4:44 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Well, you need three things to have a successful train system.

1) You need a first-rate bus system, to get people to and from the train station.

2) You need to make sure the trains are going to places where a lot of people want to go.

3) You need to provide excellent security for train passengers and also their cars, if they drive a car to the trainyard parking lot.

But I was thinking more of 'under the hood' kind of technologies.

--Anthony

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Friday, June 18, 2010 5:15 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Ro-ro (roll on, roll off) trains could help alleviate some rush-hour congestion. Look up how cars cross the English Channel via the "Chunnel". Drive your car onto the train, park it, turn it off, get out and go have a smoke, or stay in your car, or go for a bite in the lounge car... whatever, and in a short bit you're at your destination.

This could make a big impact in a city like Austin, where we have so many people pouring into the city (government workers, students at the university, etc.) every morning.

And this way, you would still have your car once you got to your stop.

Not everyone would utilize this kind of service, but some would, and would pay for the privilege, and every car off the freeways at rush hour(s) helps. Me, I'd be happy to take a train if I could take my dog on it. Same with the bus. Since I can't, I'm stuck in the car. :(

What's hilarious is that Austin just started up its light rail system - finally - years late and terribly over-budget. And it's main stop? Leander, outside of town. So we spent literally hundreds of millions of dollars to bring people into town to work, who don't even live in the city limits or pay city taxes, or even pay into the COUNTY, because they're across the county line. Pure politics was behind that decision, because too many of the lawmakers behind that decision live in... where else? LEANDER!

I just bought a new bike, so my dog WILL be staying home one or two days a week, and I will ride to work. Maybe I'll even lose some weight and get in better shape while I'm at it. :P

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Friday, June 18, 2010 7:04 PM

REENACT12321


Niki, you're aware California had mass transit. San Francisco had Trolleys, LA was getting a real subway system. But they were privately held companies, not like the CTA here in Chicago. So, GM and Chrysler bought up the Subway and the Trolleys and dismantled them. LA would have to burn to the ground before it could be restructured for trains though. It's not centralized enough. Not that I would complain if it did, not a real fan of the place.

Sweet Home Chicago is the place for me.

"...we need a hood ornament..."

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Saturday, June 19, 2010 2:44 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Of course, you still have to make the steam, and that takes some kind of fuel or energy source. I'm not sure the practice of converting energy to steam and then steam to motive power is practical. Maybe for high-power applications?


Nuclear Power plants are steam driven.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

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Saturday, June 19, 2010 3:07 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Of course, you still have to make the steam, and that takes some kind of fuel or energy source. I'm not sure the practice of converting energy to steam and then steam to motive power is practical. Maybe for high-power applications?


Nuclear Power plants are steam driven.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.



Hello,

True enough. But no one except for Doc Brown seems to be able to get radio-actives into a car. I'm not sure what he used to get the train to fly.

Actually, I recall the air force briefly toyed with the idea of a nuclear jet, and apparently had an engine ready to test.

Just don't crash it, eh? ;-)

I think the reason nuclear plants use steam is because their energy product is heat. And steam is the best way to turn heat into motive force for the generators.

--Anthony

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Saturday, June 19, 2010 3:10 AM

DREAMTROVE


What Citizen said. Today's steam is nuclear. The reason is that you need a heat source to run a steam engine, and of course, nuclear power plants are giant steam engines. There's no reason you couldn't make a nuclear train on low radioactivity and lots of shielding and make a train that basically ran forever. I feel pretty sure you could knock the radioactivity level below that of household current, and certainly lower than a CRT television. Of course you'd have to deal with the human panic factor, but that would just mean some paranoid people wouldn't take the train, not stopping to think about the radiation and toxins leaking into their automobile.

But if you want to consider some alternatives, what you need is a heat source.

I think the original heat source was charcoal. I hope we can discount this out of hand. Anyone not tempted to should check out what the charcoal industry has done to the nation where it is strongest: Haiti. (for all the leftists out there, Ive been throwing this one out there for a king time as a capital evil, even tho there's a fair amount of govt involvement, largely I think this is the result of globalist IMF involvement in the Hatian economy.)

Next up we have coal, which was IIRC the mainstay of the steam era. Coal is encroaching very seriously on this part of the world and has rapidly exposed itself as being as destructive as hydro, so, no, I hope we can ban coal mining asap, I'd much rather deal with the oil industry for all it's faults.

Next came oil. I'm sure there's been oil based steam, but the explosive force of oil combustion is more directly valuable for energy. A hybrid piston+steam turbine system would be an interesting idea and would probably increase overall efficiency. Your car has one right now, but it's not generating power, it's your radiator.

The natural evolution past oil by the trend of fossil fuels of the oats would be rubber, which is highly explosive when burned in nitrogen. This is what spaceship one ran on, I don't know how much heat the reaction generates.

I'm wary of biofuels, especially incredibly poorly planned ones like ethanol, as I think these are an attempt to control the food industry, but the idea isn't entirely new. Some early steam engines ran off of various bio compounds such assugar, it's incredibly wasteful, but it does illustrate that it can be done.

In theory I suppose you could have a solar based steam, focusing the sunlit through lenses to heat an lower chamber and creating your convection current that way.

The nice thing about nuclear is that it repesents a practically infinite source of heat. You can now build a nuclear breeder reactor so small that the whole thing fits in a coffee can. In the barrel of a steam locomotive you would have enough power to run your train essentially forever.

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Saturday, June 19, 2010 3:21 AM

DREAMTROVE


The problem with the nuclear plane show do you get the water into the plane?
Quote:

At 800 degrees F, the steam pressure built up within the coils reaches 1500 lbs. With a 1200 lb pressure, the engine will deliver 150 horsepower, whirling the propeller at 1625 rpm. Tests have shown that 10 gallons of water is sufficient for a flight of 400 miles. By increasing the size and efficiency of the condenser, the experimenters told me, they believe they can make this amount of water last indefinitely.

in short, you carry it with you. I suppose there are ways to skim it from the air also, but otherwise, your carrying a pretty heavy cargo of water,


This is also an issue with the car, plus, both have a lack of space for shielding. A steam locomotive has a perfect barrel setup for shielding and can carry plenty of water, and will have no problem refilling along the way.

Ideally a train could recondense all the water and not blow off any steam, I don't know enough about it though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_locomotive

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Saturday, June 19, 2010 3:37 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
The problem with the nuclear plane show do you get the water into the plane?
Quote:

At 800 degrees F, the steam pressure built up within the coils reaches 1500 lbs. With a 1200 lb pressure, the engine will deliver 150 horsepower, whirling the propeller at 1625 rpm. Tests have shown that 10 gallons of water is sufficient for a flight of 400 miles. By increasing the size and efficiency of the condenser, the experimenters told me, they believe they can make this amount of water last indefinitely.

in short, you carry it with you. I suppose there are ways to skim it from the air also, but otherwise, your carrying a pretty heavy cargo of water,


This is also an issue with the car, plus, both have a lack of space for shielding. A steam locomotive has a perfect barrel setup for shielding and can carry plenty of water, and will have no problem refilling along the way.

Ideally a train could recondense all the water and not blow off any steam, I don't know enough about it though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_locomotive






Hello,

Well, near-lossless steam engines are possible, where almost all of the water is recycled. Hell, the Bessler boys thought they could do it back in the 1930's.

The problem with nuclear isn't the water. It's public safety concerns. Essentially, 1) What if it crashes and 2) What if someone takes the radioactive material.

--Anthony


Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews, Wulfenstar. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Saturday, June 19, 2010 3:39 AM

DREAMTROVE


Here are some other thoughts : steam based airship. The airship has a pretty large surface area, and while it doesn't travel as fast as the plane could collect water from condensation and carry it. The larger space also might lend itself well to taking advantage of the strange environment of the upper atmosphere, where sun based evaporation coupled with cool air condensation.

Here's another one: ecosteam. You could in theory run a solar steam engine off of transpiration rather than evaporation .

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Saturday, June 19, 2010 3:43 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Solar power is a natural for airships, either by running a heat engine or simply using surface solar collectors. I think you might be able to use hot air in the airship, too. Essentially, a hot air balloon in a dirigible frame with engines on it.

I think our fastest airship design went about 80 MPH, but I bet we could do better with modern technology and geometry.

--Anthony



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Saturday, June 19, 2010 3:48 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

It occurred to me also that if a hot-air system is used, hydrogen could be used as fuel instead of as a lifting gas. This would be much safer than the old Nazi fireballs of years past.

--Anthony



Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews, Wulfenstar. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Saturday, June 19, 2010 5:20 AM

BYTEMITE


The downfall of trains and public transit like electronic trolleys (Salt Lake city actually used to have some around the turn of the century) was the invention of cars. And I still don't quite buy that it was because people unanimously preferred cars. *tin foil hat*

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Saturday, June 19, 2010 6:21 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I was thinking in terms also of morving materielle, getting trucks off the road. Our 18-wheelers aren't allowed on some freeways BECAUSE of the huge traffic snarls; trains could alleviate a lot of that and lessen both the traffic and the pollution.

They have such trains in Switzerland, Mike; when my family came home from Afghanistan, we took a vacation, bought a Mercedes at the factory, and traveled Europe. In Switzerland we were on just such a train; in this case, you could sit in your car and watch the scenery go by and then get your car off and go on your way.

But that, in my opinion, isn't the answer. Moving people out of cars is. We have a bus system, but it can't handle the volume and it's not run properly, unpredictable, uncomfortable, etc. If it were reliable, more would use it.

As for security, if you're talking about something where people park their cars then GET ON the train to go somewhere, it's not a problem. We have park and ride, and people's cars are left in lots on the side of the road perfectly safely. We have our ferries, with gigantic parking lots which are perfectly safe.

It would have to be made popular somehow, and the biggest problem is getting people to ACCEPT rapid transit rather than the comfort and control of their own car. That is a problem in CA, and I think in the West in general.

We have BART, and lots of commuters use it. We could use more, much more. And as far as moving goods, more freight trains could be invaluable around here.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

To Niki: “My guess is it won't just be your ugly face you dislike.....Well, it's true......if you had a soul.” ...Raptor

To Kwicko:" You're the putrid slime which oozes between troll's toes, you're so low.” ...Raptor

...Remember, remember, the ugliest member...

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Saturday, June 19, 2010 6:30 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Reenact, no, I didn’t know that. Bastards. That’s probably how we lost our last little line here in Marin, now you mention it. And no doubt you’re right about LA, I was thinking in terms of long distance, but down there, yes, trains for intra-city travel would be impossible to build at this point.

We still have our trolleys. Problem is that they’ve become a tourist attraction and the price reflects it, so regular folk don’t use them for the most part. They’ve reinstituted them around the marina, which was great to see. They bought trolleys from all around the world, in some cases vintage ones no longer used by those cities, and ran a rail line around the outside of the City on the Bay. It’s heavily used. Our city buses are heavily used, too, but the crime rate is horrific on them, so people don’t use them unless they have to. Golden Gate Transit, which operates TO the City and outside the city, is safe, but unreliable, unfortunately.

Byte, one of you old trolleys is on that line, along with trolleys from Switzerland, Chicago, and other countries. They’re lovely things, I love seeing them and that they built the line.



Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


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Saturday, June 19, 2010 6:39 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"As for security, if you're talking about something where people park their cars then GET ON the train to go somewhere, it's not a problem. We have park and ride, and people's cars are left in lots on the side of the road perfectly safely."

Hello,

When Miami got a metro-rail system, it suffered because it didn't go to all the places people wanted to go.

But it did go downtown, and that was a draw. Unfortunately, the 'park and ride' facilities were not adequately protected. People started to lose radios, and some people started to lose entire cars.

So people stopped riding.

The bus system wasn't delightful enough to make you want to take the bus to the rail, so people didn't do that, either.

And if you weren't going downtown, there really wasn't much reason to ride the thing.

It has proved a failure, though one continuing to be operated.

You either do the whole thing up right, buses, security, and train locations... or don't do it.

I'd also suggest that if the thing can't be sustained by the income from fares, you've done something wrong.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews, Wulfenstar. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Saturday, June 19, 2010 6:56 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Hello,

True enough. But no one except for Doc Brown seems to be able to get radio-actives into a car. I'm not sure what he used to get the train to fly.

Actually, I recall the air force briefly toyed with the idea of a nuclear jet, and apparently had an engine ready to test.

Just don't crash it, eh? ;-)

I think the reason nuclear plants use steam is because their energy product is heat. And steam is the best way to turn heat into motive force for the generators.

--Anthony


Or you buy an electric car and charge it from a nuclear sourced electrical system. If you're looking at trains it's fairly trivial, run them off of the electrical mains, and then the issue is ensuring your electrical generation is made using renewable sources.

A test Aircraft using a nuclear reactor was flown, by both the US and the USSR in the 50s and 60s. The US program just had an operational reactor on board to test radiation levels, I think the USSR program did test the reactor as a power source, but both were canceled quite early on.

The main problem with steam is that it's simply not as efficient as the internal combustion engine.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

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Saturday, June 19, 2010 7:28 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


They have such trains in Switzerland, Mike; when my family came home from Afghanistan, we took a vacation, bought a Mercedes at the factory, and traveled Europe. In Switzerland we were on just such a train; in this case, you could sit in your car and watch the scenery go by and then get your car off and go on your way.

But that, in my opinion, isn't the answer. Moving people out of cars is. We have a bus system, but it can't handle the volume and it's not run properly, unpredictable, uncomfortable, etc. If it were reliable, more would use it.



Niki, you're making the classic mistake of acting as if there is ONE solution; there's not. There is no 100% solution, just lots and lots of little 1%-5% solutions. Start working in enough of those into the mix, and you make a bigger solution out of them. Get 5% of people out of their cars, and you reduce congestion. Get 5% of people telecommuting and not leaving home for work, and you reduce congestion further, and so on. At some point, though, congestion gets reduced to a point where more people want to go out and drive, because it's pleasurable to do so again!

Buses are a help, but they have to be integrated into an overall system, along with better rail and smarter roads. The one advantage buses have over rail is flexibility: when commuting trends change, when one area of town becomes more crowded and more in-demand, bus lines can be fairly easily rerouted to meet new demand. Train track can't be so easily moved.

But yes, utilize light rail, freight rail, commuter trains, car haulers, buses, subways... And encourage people to get themselves into smaller, more fuel-efficient cars at the same time. As mentioned elsewhere, trucks are the logical choice for hybrids with large, heavy battery packs - and 18-wheelers could benefit even more from such tecnology, because 18-wheelers don't make a ton of horsepower, but DO make a ton or torque, which is what gets all that weight moving in the first place, and wouldn't you know it, electric motors make their maximum torque from zero RPM. Imagine an 18-wheeler with electric motors in each wheel hub, making it an 18-wheel-drive truck, which should actually help stability and safety. You'd still have a large diesel engine on board, but it would be more for charging the batteries and for backup power. Just a thought.

I hate to say it, but we may NEED another serious gas crunch in order to get people thinking seriously about moving forward, and how to do so. The gas crunch of the 70s had an enormous impact on the automotive world, and while it seemed for a time as though it was all negative, some fantastic cars came out of that period, which were amazingly fun to drive, out-handled even the most expensive exotics of the previous era, and got astonishing gas mileage; some of them got better mileage than any hybrid you can buy in the U.S. today!

So yes, this disaster in the Gulf is a crisis. But it's also an opportunity. All we have to do is choose to take that opportunity, and use it to move ahead.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Saturday, June 19, 2010 10:28 AM

DREAMTROVE


Anthony,

I think at the height of airships, the most sensible propellent to use is wind, which would mean 80mph or so, but that's plenty fast for almost any purpose. If you need to go faster and are not at war or working in an emergency capacity, I humbly suggest reviewing your time management, but overall, I think also that high speed travel is just a bad idea. Note the major problem with plane crashes is the speed the craft is going when it hits the ground. Anyway, good ideas. I think solar would be a good idea, I also like having an implied raw kinetic motion, but I would prefer not to be toting larger amounts of water.

Public transit snafu is to be expected if a govt is building it. He'll, look how they run amtrak.


Niki

Freight moves on trains, even when it also moves on trucks. It moves on trucks on trains. I see them all over the place.

Whoever said it,

The radioactive material could be low level, since the train wont need that much power. Any social objection will be psychological. The major form of ignorance you'd have to overcome would be the local towns you had the right of way through saying "we don't want nutting nuquelar through here"

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Sunday, June 20, 2010 6:35 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
...I think also that high speed travel is just a bad idea. Note the major problem with plane crashes is the speed the craft is going when it hits the ground.



Best not HIT the ground , then. The whole point of flying is in NOT hitting the ground. As famous astronaut Buzz Lightyear is known to have said , Flying is falling with grace...

That's why River Tam is making such a fine pilot ; she is a creature of extraordinary grace...

In flying , SPEED is actually LIFE. The craft only hit the ground , as a rule , when the pilot runs out of AIRSPEED , Altitude , and Ideas , all at the same time...

If flying has to be reduced to only a couple of loaded details , they'd be Energy Management and Risk Management. They are interrelated to a large degree , and if both are done well , the chain of events leading up to 'hitting the ground' is averted.

Works for spacecraft on orbit , also. It is a continuous fall , but with the horizon curving away at the correct rate. Wanna FALL out of orbit ? Just tap the brakes. Scrub only about 200 mph off your velocity , and , voila ! You are now falling toward a rendezvous with the ground ; best get back to energy/risk management real quick like , or the planet will come up too fast. And smite thee...It is the LAW !

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Sunday, June 20, 2010 8:00 AM

DREAMTROVE


O2tb

Fault tolerance. Plan for things to go wrong

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Sunday, June 20, 2010 8:13 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Dirigibles were designed to carry people long distances, and are only practical in that capacity. While 80 MPH would allow them to compete with ocean liners, we might hope for somewhat greater speeds for those who wish to cross a state or a continent over land.

I think it would be possible to get them to a couple hundred MPH given the right geometry. I see no reason why a dirigible can't also be a flying wing. With a cavernous interior and nice amenities, folks would probably be okay with 8-12 hour flights.

--Anthony



Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews, Wulfenstar. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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