Iraq is SO much better for all our help... by Niki2

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Iraq is SO much better for all our help...

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 05:01
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VIEWED: 2207
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Sunday, August 15, 2010 7:40 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Iraq sure has settled down. I'm so glad we were the liberators Dumbya promised! Just think, if we hadn't saved them from themselves...

Quote:
Clashes erupted throughout Iraq on Saturday between gunmen and state security forces, killing five police officers, a local Awakening Council member and a 7-year-old boy, authorities said.

In the al-Qadisiya neighborhood in eastern Mosul, at least 15 gunmen fought with police late on Saturday, police said. Civilians were caught in the crossfire as they left a mosque. A 7-year-old boy was killed. His father was wounded, while three others were injured in the clash, including two police officers.

Five of the attackers were arrested by Iraqi security forces, which also confiscated two vehicles, police said.

Mosul is located in the Nineveh province, about 420 kilometers north of Baghdad.

In a separate incident in Baghdad, gunmen opened fire on an Iraqi police patrol, killing one officer and wounding two others, police told CNN. The incident occurred in the Ghazaliya neighborhood in western Baghdad.

Police also reported four officers and a local Awakening Council member were assassinated in Baghdad neighborhoods on Saturday.

In the al-Niaria neighborhood in southeastern Baghdad, gunmen approached a security checkpoint and shot dead two national police officers using silenced pistols, police said. The attackers then carried the two bodies, placed them in a police vehicle and set it on fire.

Two other officers were shot and killed in the al-Amil neighborhood in southwestern Baghdad by gunmen with silenced pistols, police said.

In the al-Basatin neighborhood in northeastern Baghdad, gunmen approached a checkpoint manned by local Awakening Council members, killing one and wounding two others.

In the al-Amil neighborhood in southwestern Baghdad, a sticky bomb attached to a civilian car exploded at an Iraqi police checkpoint and wounded two people, including one police officer.

In Samarra, about 100 km north of Baghdad, six Iraqi police officers were wounded when a roadside bomb exploded at a police patrol Saturday morning, authorities said.

Iraqi politicians have been unable to form a government more than five months after the country's inconclusive national elections.

Concerns have surfaced that insurgents could take advantage of the political vacuum to try to reignite the sectarian bloodshed that gripped Iraq for years.

Yes, indeedy, we fixed that one alright! Peaceful little democracy, just what Dumbya predicted.

Our job here is done. Let's go spread democracy somewhere else now...

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, August 15, 2010 7:26 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Niki,

But we can't withdraw from the country now, because if we did there might be violence.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Monday, August 16, 2010 12:16 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

As our current Commander OF Chief would say...

But think of how much worse it would be if we had done nothing!

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Monday, August 16, 2010 1:26 AM

RAHLMACLAREN

"Damn yokels, can't even tell a transport ship ain't got no guns on it." - Jayne Cobb

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
But think of how much worse it would be if we had done nothing!

Just out of curiosity, how bad were things in Iraq one year before we invaded?

--------------------------------------------------
Find here the Serenity you seek. -Tara Maclay

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Monday, August 16, 2010 2:31 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Yes, indeedy, we fixed that one alright! Peaceful little democracy, just what Dumbya predicted.

Our job here is done. Let's go spread democracy somewhere else now...

I too am shocked that violent extremists would engage in acts of extreme violence.

Although I seem to recall President Bush saying something about a date certain withdrawl leading to increased violence. Naw...nobody saw this coming...

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I find those statements amazing. I said I found your remarks 'amazing'" Niki2, 2010.

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Monday, August 16, 2010 3:59 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
But we can't withdraw from the country now, because if we did there might be violence.

Indeed, Anthony - some days I wonder if the only mental route between cause and effect politicians have is somebodys boot in their ass, cause it damn sure doesn't seem they connect em any other way.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, August 16, 2010 4:20 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Yes, indeedy, we fixed that one alright! Peaceful little democracy, just what Dumbya predicted.

Our job here is done. Let's go spread democracy somewhere else now...

I too am shocked that violent extremists would engage in acts of extreme violence.

Although I seem to recall President Bush...

Speaking of violent extremists...

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Monday, August 16, 2010 12:57 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by RahlMaclaren:

Just out of curiosity, how bad were things in Iraq one year before we invaded?

Your question is meaningless. Try 10 years before, and then figure in the damage that Saddam Hussein would have done had he been left to control Iraq and the sanctions been allowed to be lifted.

How soon some forget the UN food for oil scam, the delays and refusal to submit to inspections, almost never cooperated, and was setting itself up to be in a race w/ Iran to built its own nuke "power" system.

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Monday, August 16, 2010 3:45 PM

RAHLMACLAREN

"Damn yokels, can't even tell a transport ship ain't got no guns on it." - Jayne Cobb

Meaningless. Riiight. How?

"One year before" is much closer to the run up to THIS "war" than "10 years before".

No two years are exactly the same.

If not a year, how about the conditions in Iraq one MONTH before the invasion?

Just because you don't have an answer doesn't mean there isn't one.

--------------------------------------------------
Find here the Serenity you seek. -Tara Maclay

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Monday, August 16, 2010 3:49 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

I did have an answer, you ignored it.

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Monday, August 16, 2010 5:20 PM

RAHLMACLAREN

"Damn yokels, can't even tell a transport ship ain't got no guns on it." - Jayne Cobb

You're right. I should have said...

"Just because you can't answer my question (you called it "meaningless", making up your own question instead) doesn't mean nobody else can.

Is that better?

*half bumping, 'cause it must be a PN time of the week*

(Gorramit! I swear +50% of the times I post in RWED, is the same time PN floods the board with crap, pushing my posts into oblivion. Nothing is ever easy.)

--------------------------------------------------
Find here the Serenity you seek. -Tara Maclay

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Monday, August 16, 2010 6:58 PM

FREMDFIRMA

No worries Rahl, folks are used to his occasional deluges of nonsensoleum by now, tho occasionaly they contain somethin worth a mention...

Anyhow, let's ask THIS question then.

You wanna whine and whinge about Saddam then...

Who the fuck propped him up in the first fucking place ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, August 17, 2010 12:37 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

No one 'propped up' Saddam, but we did side with him, once. Do you remember WHY ?

Iran. The hostages ? Supporter of Hammas and Hezbollah? Any of that ring a bell ?

Siding w/ Saddam was like working w/ the Soviets to beat the NAZIs. Ugly business, but some times you have to fight evil with evil.

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Tuesday, August 17, 2010 12:40 AM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

No worries Rahl, folks are used to his occasional deluges of nonsensoleum by now, tho occasionaly they contain somethin worth a mention...

Anyhow, let's ask THIS question then.

You wanna whine and whinge about Saddam then...

Who the fuck propped him up in the first fucking place ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

Where is the spelling fairy when you need him? Probably getting his cheeks pounded in a bath house....

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Tuesday, August 17, 2010 12:40 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:

RahlMaclaren wrote:
Monday, August 16, 2010 17:20
You're right. I should have said...

"Just because you can't answer my question (you called it "meaningless", making up your own question instead) doesn't mean nobody else can.

I did answer you. Just because you either don't like my response or are too intellectually dishonest to deal with the facts, doesn't make your case.

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Tuesday, August 17, 2010 2:41 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
No one 'propped up' Saddam, but we did side with him, once. Do you remember WHY ?

Iran. The hostages ? Supporter of Hammas and Hezbollah? Any of that ring a bell ?

Siding w/ Saddam was like working w/ the Soviets to beat the NAZIs. Ugly business, but some times you have to fight evil with evil.

You also can't ignore the influence of the Cold War. Folks like Saddam casually played both sides to get the most aid. If we would have ignored Saddam he would have been drawn fully into the Soviet sphere of influence giving them a powerful ally who could threaten the Gulf States.

Isreal was another factor.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I find those statements amazing. I said I found your remarks 'amazing'" Niki2, 2010.

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Tuesday, August 17, 2010 5:26 AM

RIVERLOVE

After the Iran-Iraq Tanker War of the 1980's, we never really talked to Saddam again. Iraq was left decimated by the war, and we abandoned Saddam. Iraq suffered greatly, virtually bankrupt, and with 100's of thousands dead. We had a great and rare opportunity then to form an ongoing alliance, one that certainly would have prevented his decision later to invade and rape Kuwait, prevented US involvement in the ensuing Gulf War, and of course, the big kahuna, the ill-conceived invasion of Iraq years later. Oh well.

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Tuesday, August 17, 2010 5:41 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Hero: Just to say...since your remarks were posited on the Cold War, let's try this: Say we did ignore Saddam and he came under "Soviet" influence...then the Soviet Union crashes apart. How powerful an ally is Saddam to them then, how important being under their "sphere of influence"?

I'm just wondering...if you're going to theorize, there are so manay variables to consider, can we REALLY say what "would have happened" if...?

On the other hand, for the most part I think Riverlove has a good point, which may be an all-time first. Again, too many potential variables to be sure, and we DID have a kind of alliance (as in propping up), but both are interesting scenarios.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:24 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Uh-huh, and what provoked Iran to hate us so ?

Oh, yes, the murder of Mossedeigh, and umm, WHO did that, hmmm ?
Who *did* prop up the fucking Shah ?

Oh, and you don't GET to bitch about the embassy and the hostages no more, nope, nu-uh, not after we raided the Iranian embassy in Iraq (2007) and sent it's personnel off to be "renditioned" - nope, no more moral high ground for us on that one.

Doesn't mean you can't bitch about them doing it, just lets drop the fucking pretense that we don't torture and murder, cause we do - and this makes it laughable when we bitch about anyone ELSE doing it.

All of this is relevant only in that every time we prop some shithead up, kinda like we're doin with Kharazi, over in Afghanistan - this comes back to fucking bite us on the ass, you'd THINK we'd learn not to stick our dick in a meatgrinder by now - ain't YOU sick of choking on the blowback of our own stupidity ?

Fuck em, they ain't us, we got Saddam, which I kinda see as shootin our own dog when it went rabid, so that's all done, lets GTFO - let THEM sort it out, it's their goddamn country, let THEM put it back together and figure out how they want it run!

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:28 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Hero: Just to say...since your remarks were posited on the Cold War, let's try this: Say we did ignore Saddam and he came under "Soviet" influence...then the Soviet Union crashes apart. How powerful an ally is Saddam to them then, how important being under their "sphere of influence"?

I'm just wondering...if you're going to theorize, there are so manay variables to consider, can we REALLY say what "would have happened" if...?

The last thing anybody expected was the Soviet bloc to peacefully collapse. We had to prepare for the worst. I think a better question is 'how important an ally is Iraq to a Soviet Union suddenly pushed into the hands of militant hardliners who see military conquest as the means to break the Soviet Union's downward spiral?'

I note for the record that war was considered an option by the Soviet Union right up to the very end and their was an aborted coup before the Soviet breakup.

Had the Soviets decided to push through Iran to occupy the Gulf States it would have been a great benefit to have the world's 4th largest army (in 1990) in place and ready to assist (aided by Syria which was in the Soviet sphere). The US had the bulk of its heavy units in Germany and the US. It likely could have deployed only a handful of its Rapid Deployment Units in time to be of assistance and only the Marines and the 24th Mech Division had any real heavy combat power. They'd be faced off with literally dozens of Soviet 2nd line divisions supported by special forces. Naval and air support would have allowed US forces to bottle up and stop the Soviet advance in Iran's central mountains. Now with Iraq and Syria attacking US bases in Saudi Arabia the US would have to divert the bulk of its forces to defend its bases and the likely result is Soviet occupation of the Iranian side of the Gulf. Assuming this did not lead to larger world-wide conflict and nuclear war...we'd still be pretty screwed.

Every foriegn policy decision in those years was considered with regards to how it would affect a US-Soviet conflict. Strong Isreal balances Soviet Syria and moderates Egypt which helps contain Lybia and keep Gulf oil flowing through the canal. Iraq balances Iran. Iran balances Iraq. Keeping these countries focused on each other keeps them out of the picture for Soviet Gulf planning (pro-Soviet Iraq makes victory likely while pro-US Iraq makes long supply lines through Iran very vulnerable, especially if Turkey gets its act together, so lets give Turkey F-111s and F-16s). Strong Turkey holds the key to the Black Sea and is a threat to weak Bulgaria and the Warsaw Pact southern flank. This improves Yugoslavia's position which in turn fuels Romania's resistance to Soviet war planning, perhaps making them neutral or...should Bulgaria collapse...subject to an outright revolt. This uncertainty means more Soviet troops in Southern Theaters which allows Poland to begin rethinking its relationships. And so on all the way to Scandanavia where Sweden has to decide whether to resist and Soviet crossing of the northern portion of their country to break into Central Norway which is vital to projecting Soviet Air Power into the North Atlantic...

In other words US foriegn policy was extremely complicated and was far more then simply 'hey lets keep Saddam in power'.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I find those statements amazing. I said I found your remarks 'amazing'" Niki2, 2010.

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Wednesday, August 18, 2010 5:01 AM

KWICKO

Or, to put it more simply,

"It'll take time to restore chaos."
- President George W. Bush

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