REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Open carry at the festival, and a nutter of a priest.

POSTED BY: FREMDFIRMA
UPDATED: Friday, August 20, 2010 11:38
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VIEWED: 1265
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Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:48 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Ok, I gotta fire away at this one, a lil bit.

Now, understand that the city of Royal Oak has recently discovered, oh, hey, DUH - you can't BAN a consitutional right on a publicly owned street, although the individual vendors with their own building can of course set their own policies...

And this, much like the Starbucks issue, is pretty much a tempest in a teapot, while for a time you might see a bump in open carry, once folks are secure in the knowledge that their rights will be respected most will go back to CCW simply for the sake of convenience and to avoid upsetting those of fragile constitution who seem to earnestly believe that "evil device" is going to leap, unassisted from it's holster and mow people down, or that folk who are willing to defend their own person are somehow less sane than folk who think the police are gonna arrive in time to do anything but roll out the yellow tape...

It's just a tool, folks.

And so, to a bit from the local paper.


Royal Oak man to bear banana, not gun, at fest
http://www.freep.com/article/20100816/OPINION05/100816046/1322/

Hey, fine, dandy - it's a novel concept, carry a banana in a holster to show you don't necessarily agree with open carry, by all means apply your right to dissent...

HOWEVER
Quote:
In what may be one of the more craven legislative acts to be committed by a local government entity in my memory, the city commissioners of Royal Oak are set to repeal their own wise and responsible ordinances prohibiting the open carrying of side arms in such venues as street festivals.

There's nothing "craven" about respecting the constitution, nor wise and responsible about defying it - the city realized they were in violation of that document and sought to rectify that error, which is a matter of LAW rather than personal opinion, it's as simple as that.

Anthony recently mentioned that anyone who wants the constitution ignored the instant it becomes inconvenient is a bully, and I agree, in fact I will add "potential jackboot" to that assessment, cause rights for me and screw you is NOT the way the founders intended it - so to declare the city authorities "craven" for obeying the law of the land, in fact the highest law of the land, simply because he wishes otherwise is a pretty damned unbecoming thing for this guy to do, and it smacks of a certain attitude which I think downright dangerous - cause what's next, out with free speech when this guy doesn't like what you're saying ?

I bet he'd be a real believer in the constitution and right to religious freedom all of the sudden like if I suggested stringing him up for being Episcopalian, wouldn't he ?
Quote:
This means that the honorable commissioners have been cowed by the Open Carry lobby whose members swagger about with long, ugly pistols clipped to their belts just daring someone to object to the exercise of their Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms. Only they are not members of a “well-regulated militia.” But why should I mind? The Supreme Court doesn’t.

And I think priestly rainment looks ridiculous, and clergy swagger with all the arrogance of a prize winning swine with a blue ribbon stuck to its ass, so fucking what - DEAL WITH IT, welcome to america!

Seriously, guns are "ugly" is his main argument ? well shit, violence is ugly, so are its tools, although not in every case, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder, if we were gonna start banning "ugly" things I'd be in deep shit cause I got some hawaiian shirts in my closet that some folk swear can cause brain damage just lookin at em!

And that whole "daring someone to object" is some serious projection goin on, just because someone chooses to open carry doesn't automatically signify hostile intent, any more than this guys priestly collar there signifies his intent to start burning people at the stake - he's LOOKING to pick shit, here.
Quote:
I am an introvert and try as far as in me lies to stay away from clots of people. Withal, I am girding up my loins to plunge into the man swarm at the Labor Day weekend street festival, the revelry of which will make my city unbearable to quiet pursuits. I will stride among the masses with a good-sized banana strapped to my belt, and, whenever I come upon an open-carrier with his piece, I will point to my fruit and say, “Hey, buster, mine’s longer than yours.”

Yep, sounds like intent to provoke to me - guy plans to go to a place he doesn't wanna be, for the express purpose of picking on folk who choose to exercise a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT he does not agree with ?

Well, sure, free speech and all that, but this is pre-meditated action, same as if I went to his local church and got up in his face, and started picking on HIM for being Christian - do you think he'd take it well ?
Quote:
I suspect that if I perform that act enough times, representatives of the local police force will want to know what the hell I think I’m doing. I will have in my pocket the numbers of the cell phones of several attorneys I know -- and, by the way, I hope they will have read this column because one or another of them may be surprised at some odd hour to hear my voice via a pay phone at the local police station seeking legal counsel.

Thus he KNOWS that his intent is unwelcome and disruptive, and means to wreck other peoples enjoyment, whether or not they be open carrying at all, by causing a scene like a goddamn four year old denied a favorite toy ?

Um, scuse me, can ANYONE here even TRY to justify this idiotic plan of his, seriously, I'd like to know any logic chain by which it's anything but petulance, just to see if I can understand his mindset and assure myself this guy isn't so batshit nuts he needs a checkup from the neck-up!
Quote:
If I’m lucky, I will make enough of a spectacle of myself to attract the attention of the ubiquitous television people anxious for some geek story to lead their 10 or 11 o’clock newscasts — there being no serious wars or other issues of regional, national or international import to cover.

Wow, goddamn, pun intended - talk about narcissicism!
It's all about him and what he wants and damn anyone else ?
*shakes head*
Arrest my ass, involuntary committal, more like, and this article alone... which he no doubt got publushed via connections being a former employee, showing the true colors here even more... reveals that this guy is a couple deuces short of a full deck, honestly.
Quote:
Maybe then there will to be seen on your screen this old guy, with or without banana, being led away in cuffs by police officers of the city that had just recently caved to the carriers of real and loaded handguns that could blow a hole through a child’s head at 200 yards.

And he doesn't know much about guns either, cause I don't know of a handgun with a 200 yard effective range, do you ?
And again, it's not like it's gonna jump out of the holster all by itself and start blazing away, besides, if he's that much against open carry why is he not hassling the police, who are, as a rule, less trained and less accurate with a pistol than the folk who DO open carry or CCW ?
Quote:
My protest will be like all other protests I have ever mounted: viz. in the spirit of passive resistance. Who was ever harmed by a banana? Unless you were to push an under-ripe one into someone’s eye, it is an innocuous fruit on the face of it.

So stay tuned, banana fans. I’ll be out there on this Labor Day weekend seeking confrontation with the Open-Carry missionaries.

You might see this headline: “Banana wielder arrested for disturbing the piece.”

Yep, he's crazy, and this... this is premeditated harrassment, given his admitted intentions, which has shit to do with anything since his express purpose is to do this and he also admitted no other reason to attend.

This is JUST like those jerks at the other festival and how they were screaming about freedom of speech, freedom of religion, while they were IN FACT arrested for distribution of literature on the grounds despite repeated warnings to stop, and their admitted intention was to start a fight as well.
(and if you noticed, the VERY biased reporting never once mentioned this)
That'd be the last post in THIS thread, if yer interested.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=44571

So yeah, I think this dude is batshit crazy, and I seriously question the credibility of both local papers (detnews and freep) given two back to back examples of seriously biased "reporting" on top of a long-established political partisanship.

But what the hell, I might bip on down there myself, I've got an old cavalry holster around here meant for an 1851 Navy Colt, and I am pretty sure I can find a Zucchini that totally outclasses his Banana if he wants to get into a fruit-waving contest...


-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:00 AM

KANEMAN


"But what the hell, I might bip on down there myself, I've got an old cavalry holster around here meant for an 1851 Navy Colt, and I am pretty sure I can find a Zucchini that totally outclasses his Banana if he wants to get into a fruit-waving contest..."



Are you trying to turn Kwicko on? I can see his cheeks clenching at the mere thought of waving bananas and zucchinis........Well, it's true.......

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Tuesday, August 17, 2010 1:32 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Does this ass-hat not realize how truly horrific and ugly a device the cross is? How dare he brandish that weapon of torture and murder (and, in his own view, deicide) openly in public!

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Tuesday, August 17, 2010 6:20 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I'm flabbergasted that he thinks he'll be arrested for pointing at his banana. If he believes that is a possibility, he ought to be protesting something much more serious than people enjoying their Constitutional rights. And his target ought not to be the civilians strapping one on, but rather the civil-right-violating police forces that apparently frequent his area.

That it would even occur to anyone that holstering a banana might be an arrestable offense says something incredible about the perception of law and the police.

--Anthony



Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:04 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Well, yeah - but I always notice those who complain about oppressive government are so quick to use it as a proxy weapon against those they dislike, which... it could be argued, and quite well, that such *IS* the purpose of a government, that being one reason I don't care for the damn things.

That said, no, he doesn't really think open carrying a banana is gonna get him arrested - he outright stated an intention to approach people and get in their case, to more or less directly harrass them, attending an event soley for that very purpose.

That he thinks he has some kind of divine right to do this, and that arresting him for deliberate harrassment and breach of the peace is some kind of affront speaks of an arrogance that's all too common amongst folk who think constitutional rights apply only to THEM.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, August 18, 2010 1:43 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Hmmm... Okay...

So how's about a bunch of folks strap on their holsters and load them up with fake guns and go attend his church, and get right up in his face the whole time he's trying to preach?

Wonder if he'd call the cops, or respect their "rights".

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Wednesday, August 18, 2010 2:43 AM

HERO


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Does this ass-hat not realize how truly horrific and ugly a device the cross is? How dare he brandish that weapon of torture and murder (and, in his own view, deicide) openly in public!

We all have our crosses to bear and the right to bear crosses.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I find those statements amazing. I said I found your remarks 'amazing'" Niki2, 2010.

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Wednesday, August 18, 2010 3:04 AM

HERO


Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
That he thinks he has some kind of divine right to do this, and that arresting him for deliberate harrassment and breach of the peace is some kind of affront speaks of an arrogance that's all too common amongst folk who think constitutional rights apply only to THEM.

The first mistake you all seem to be making is that the 2nd Amendment prevents local governments from passing laws regarding firearms. It does not. It is expressly limited to "Congress"...as in the Federal Congress.

Even after recent cases local governments retain their ability to restrict gun ownership and the right to carry.

In order to determine if the local government in this case is within its power you need to examine the State law and State Consitution.

For example: my City has an ordinance that makes it illegal to openly carry a firearm within the City limits.

However, a couple years ago a State law was passed over the governor's veto that says you can openly carry a firearm anywhere in the State (except churches, bars, schools, and other exceptions). The State law expressly nullifies the local ordinances...I mean it literally says 'screw the local laws, this is the one your going to follow and if you don't and you get sued then you have to pay the Attorney fees of the crazy-talker gun nut that sues you.' Or words to that effect.

Fast forward to last spring we had a fella thought it would be nice to take a spring stroll with his family at noon in the busiest commercial corridor we have with his AK-47 strapped to his back. Concerned citizens called the police who briefly detained him and secured his weapon pending a routine check of his ID (which is legal under the circumstances because we are investigating a reported crime...Disorderly Conduct which is engaging in behavior the caused alarm to another).

We check the ID to make sure he is not under a disability, such as being a felon or having a conviction for Domestic Violence. We secure the gun for officer safety during the investigation. About five minutes later we return the gun having concluded no crime was committed and wish the man a 'nice day' while advising him that he is extremely stupid for carrying his weapon under those circumstances. He didn't like that and said so at which point we further advised him that his gun was a piece of crap. He really did not like that at which point we advised his wife that she should walk further away from him with the kids so that should some concerned citizen shoot her husband she'll be less likely to be in the line of fire.

I note for the record that all the people who'd stand up and defend that idiot's right to carry are the same folks who'd be defending the concerned citizen who shoots that 'crazy idiot with the assault rifle' outside of the local Walgreen.

I advised for the next time to not approach the idiot at all and simply wait for him to walk home which would take him through a school zone a block away at which point he could be arrested.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I find those statements amazing. I said I found your remarks 'amazing'" Niki2, 2010.

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Wednesday, August 18, 2010 4:29 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"advising him that he is extremely stupid for carrying his weapon under those circumstances. He didn't like that and said so at which point we further advised him that his gun was a piece of crap. He really did not like that at which point we advised his wife that she should walk further away from him with the kids so that should some concerned citizen shoot her husband she'll be less likely to be in the line of fire."

Hello,

It's always heartening to see government representatives and officials insult and antagonize the citizenry.

"I note for the record that all the people who'd stand up and defend that idiot's right to carry are the same folks who'd be defending the concerned citizen who shoots that 'crazy idiot with the assault rifle' outside of the local Walgreen."

You can note and record at will, but it doesn't make it so. I have very stringent strictures I follow and expect others to follow in regards to the use of force.

"I advised for the next time to not approach the idiot at all and simply wait for him to walk home which would take him through a school zone a block away at which point he could be arrested."

It's a relief to know that the gentleman can't transport a firearm out of his house legally. Schizophrenic laws must be a persistent delight to those in the law enforcement and persecution- pardon, prosecution employ.

--Anthony



Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Wednesday, August 18, 2010 4:59 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


No, Anthony - you had it right with "persecution" in this case.

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Wednesday, August 18, 2010 7:44 AM

FREMDFIRMA



And if there was ever a question of why we need the Second Amendment as an individual right and a check against the abuses and usurpations of government, Heros post just kinda put paid to it, didn't it ?

More on that, elsewhere.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, August 18, 2010 8:22 AM

DICKCHENEY


Hero should be shot in the face.



Go Fuck Yourself!

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Wednesday, August 18, 2010 10:11 AM

HERO


Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"advising him that he is extremely stupid for carrying his weapon under those circumstances. He didn't like that and said so at which point we further advised him that his gun was a piece of crap. He really did not like that at which point we advised his wife that she should walk further away from him with the kids so that should some concerned citizen shoot her husband she'll be less likely to be in the line of fire."

Hello,

It's always heartening to see government representatives and officials insult and antagonize the citizenry.

I did not have an problem with the officer expressing an opinion on the wisdom of the idiot's decision to carry an assault rifle to the local Walgreen without regard to his right to do so. Nor was it inappropriate to offer an observation on the type of weapon the man was openly carrying.

I would suggest that by openly carrying that weapon, he was inviting public comment on his wisdom and choice of firearm.

As for suggesting the wife and children stay a safe distance away...that's just a helpful safety suggestion along the same lines as 'wear your helmet' or 'buckle up' or 'make sure the safety is on'.
Quote:

It's a relief to know that the gentleman can't transport a firearm out of his house legally. Schizophrenic laws must be a persistent delight to those in the law enforcement and persecution- pardon, prosecution employ.

I think the point of my story was that he could legally transport the firearm outside of his house. But if you engage in legal conduct that causes alarm...you should be prepared for a reaction of some kind.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I find those statements amazing. I said I found your remarks 'amazing'" Niki2, 2010.

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Wednesday, August 18, 2010 10:26 AM

HERO


Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

And if there was ever a question of why we need the Second Amendment as an individual right and a check against the abuses and usurpations of government, Heros post just kinda put paid to it, didn't it ?

I think this is a worthy topic to explore. Here I am a prosecutor looking at these facts and seeing that the police did no wrong, but I think it would be nice to get another perspective.

So break down the facts and identify your issues and lets see if:

1. Was the brief detention unlawful?
2. Was it legal to secure the firearm during the investigation?
3. Was the conduct of the suspect/idiot legal?
4. Was the conduct of police officers inappropriate?
5. Should the officers have released the gun back to him without further investigation?
6. Was my advice good?

I think that breaks down most of the issues we had after our internal review of this case, but if you have others, please add them in.

Please note that in this case I'd appreciate the input and discussion. Perhaps we can iron out the differences or at least gain better perspective and who know...maybe next time I'll incorporate some of your suggestions into my response.

I should note for the record that I supported the State law in question despite the fact it trumps my own City's ordinance. However as Prosecutor I am forced to weigh public interest, individual rights, and the law...sometimes in a cases like these are all in conflict. This adds another point:

7. Does the public have a right to be free of alarm, in other words was it right for the concerned citizens and manager of the Walgreen to call the police if they felt threatened?

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I find those statements amazing. I said I found your remarks 'amazing'" Niki2, 2010.

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Wednesday, August 18, 2010 10:28 AM

HERO


Quote:
Originally posted by DickCheney:
Hero should be shot in the face.

I think your just jealous of my good looks...unless this is some sort of gay thing in which case I'm flattered but I'm not interested.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I find those statements amazing. I said I found your remarks 'amazing'" Niki2, 2010.

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Wednesday, August 18, 2010 10:31 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

"I think the point of my story was that he could legally transport the firearm outside of his house."

It appeared that he could do so, until you pointed out the close vicinity of a school which would render his right to do so void. So all an officer had to do was wait for him to go home, and he could be arrested.

"if you engage in legal conduct that causes alarm...you should be prepared for a reaction of some kind."

And apparently that reaction need not come from misguided citizenry. It can come from the law enforcement. The same law enforcement who should be setting alarm at legal conduct to ease. Instead of answering the complaintant with a simple, "Oh, don't worry, he has the legal right to do that and doesn't appear to be threatening any kind of violence" it became a session of, "let's figure out ways to f*ck with this guy. First we'll call him stupid, then we'll call his gun names, and finally we'll scare the wife and kid by telling them that concerned citizens will doubtless be shooting at their husband and father, so they should stand aside. Finally, when he heads home, we'll find a reason to arrest him!"

In short, the authority of the land harassed a citizen to the limit of their authority because they didn't like his legal behavior. This is why people don't like police. And all police pay for this kind of behavior, not just the ones who engage in abuse of their authority.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Wednesday, August 18, 2010 10:44 AM

MINCINGBEAST


Hero is a prosecutor; he occupies the wrong side of the V. He is the enemy. Yet everything he said was reasonable. How, in the devil's name, is carrying an AK47 to Walgreens anything but stupid? That ya'll were quick to sympathize with this citizen-retard roars volumes about pro-gun sissies.

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Wednesday, August 18, 2010 11:05 AM

HERO


Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"I think the point of my story was that he could legally transport the firearm outside of his house."

It appeared that he could do so, until you pointed out the close vicinity of a school which would render his right to do so void. So all an officer had to do was wait for him to go home, and he could be arrested.

You are incorrect. It is not illegal to carry the gun to and from home, it is illegal to carry a gun in a school zone.

Your saying that the officer has to wait until he commits a crime before he can be arrested...what is your problem with that? That was my advice...if the guy commits a crime, then arrest him, otherwise leave him alone.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I find those statements amazing. I said I found your remarks 'amazing'" Niki2, 2010.

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Wednesday, August 18, 2010 11:11 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
Hero is a prosecutor; he occupies the wrong side of the V. He is the enemy. Yet everything he said was reasonable. How, in the devil's name, is carrying an AK47 to Walgreens anything but stupid? That ya'll were quick to sympathize with this citizen-retard roars volumes about pro-gun sissies.


Hello,

The citizen retard is indeed a retard. However, it is worse than retarded for law enforcement representatives to badger citizens who obey laws they don't like. It's a brand of tyranny.

--Anthony



Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Wednesday, August 18, 2010 11:11 AM

HERO


Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
Hero is a prosecutor; he occupies the wrong side of the V. He is the enemy. Yet everything he said was reasonable. How, in the devil's name, is carrying an AK47 to Walgreens anything but stupid? That ya'll were quick to sympathize with this citizen-retard roars volumes about pro-gun sissies.

I am pro gun. I support the State law that nullified our local ordinance. What this fella did was stupid and in many ways irresponsible and dangerous, but it was legal.

And I'm not on V...although I do have a thing for Morena Baccarin, although she's no Kelly Monaco...

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I find those statements amazing. I said I found your remarks 'amazing'" Niki2, 2010.

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Wednesday, August 18, 2010 11:13 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"I think the point of my story was that he could legally transport the firearm outside of his house."

It appeared that he could do so, until you pointed out the close vicinity of a school which would render his right to do so void. So all an officer had to do was wait for him to go home, and he could be arrested.

You are incorrect. It is not illegal to carry the gun to and from home, it is illegal to carry a gun in a school zone.

Your saying that the officer has to wait until he commits a crime before he can be arrested...what is your problem with that? That was my advice...if the guy commits a crime, then arrest him, otherwise leave him alone.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I find those statements amazing. I said I found your remarks 'amazing'" Niki2, 2010.



Hello,

Actually, your advice was apparently to insult the man and his firearm, scare his wife and children, and then watch him until he inevitably breaks a law on his way home.

The inevitability of that, incidentally, is what makes the law schizophrenic (as I stated earlier.)

--Anthony



Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Wednesday, August 18, 2010 11:27 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
Hero is a prosecutor; he occupies the wrong side of the V. He is the enemy. Yet everything he said was reasonable. How, in the devil's name, is carrying an AK47 to Walgreens anything but stupid? That ya'll were quick to sympathize with this citizen-retard roars volumes about pro-gun sissies.

I am pro gun. I support the State law that nullified our local ordinance. What this fella did was stupid and in many ways irresponsible and dangerous, but it was legal.


Yet you still support police harassment of a guy who you readily admit was doing nothing illegal.

No tyranny there at all...

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Thursday, August 19, 2010 6:42 AM

HERO


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yet you still support police harassment of a guy who your readily admit was doing nothing illegal.

No tyranny there at all...

Nobody has taken up my challenge to explain what was wrong with how the police acted. They got a 911 call about a guy with an AK-47. They responded and investigated. When no crime was found they wished him a nice day while making perfectly reasonable observations and suggestions which he was free to ignore. My advice was to only arrest him if he commits a crime.

I asked your side to explain your position, something your side is incapable of doing.

I note for the record that this is not the first call of a man with an AK-47 outside of a drugstore on that street...the previous one resulted in a 12 hour hostage stand off before the guy committed suicide.

"911, what is your emergency."
"There a man with a machine gun standing outside the store..."
My response:
"Police are on their way."
Your response:
"I'm sorry, he's well within his rights, have a nice day." click.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I find those statements amazing. I said I found your remarks 'amazing'" Niki2, 2010.

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Thursday, August 19, 2010 7:40 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yet you still support police harassment of a guy who you readily admit was doing nothing illegal.

No tyranny there at all...

Nobody has taken up my challenge to explain what was wrong with how the police acted. They got a 911 call about a guy with an AK-47. They responded and investigated. When no crime was found they wished him a nice day while making perfectly reasonable observations and suggestions which he was free to ignore. My advice was to only arrest him if he commits a crime.


They responded and investigated, AND they took an antagonistic attitude and tone with a man and his family behaving in a completely legal way, according to you. They then proceeded to insult him, call him names, and issue thinly-veiled threats to him and his family, hinting that the next time he acted in a completely legal matter, they might decide to shoot him.

And yet you and the rest of your bootlicking civil servants want to pretend that you did him (and us) some big favor by not shooting him on sight, despite the fact (which you've admitted repeatedly) that he was doing absolutely nothing wrong.

And you wonder why people call you "pigs".

Go figure.

Quote:

I asked your side to explain your position, something your side is incapable of doing.


I don't need to "explain" my position. The Constitution of the United States of America does a fine job of that. I know your side thinks of that document as just a goddamned piece of paper, but it really does explain it quite clearly.


AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Thursday, August 19, 2010 4:22 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Hero, two questions for you.

______________________________________________
1) Do you think that just because behavior is legal, that it is also good and wise?


2) If the citizen responds to the officer(s) on the scene in a calm and serious voice that they are shitheels who should bend over and fuck themselves, and that sooner or later someone is likely to murder their asses as payback for accosting the citizenry, could he be arrested?
_______________________________________________


In response to something else you said earlier, investigating the complaint in this case was proper on behalf of the police. Policy when I worked for the Hialeah police department was to respond to all complaints, because you just didn't know for sure until you looked at something yourself. This had us responding to more than one Chupacabra sighting.

The wrongness occurred immediately after it was determined that no crime was being committed. That wrongness did not involve a little friendly advice.

In case you're confused, this is what friendly advice sounds like: "Sorry to have delayed you, sir. Not long ago, someone similarly armed held hostages here and shot the place up, so people are still a bit traumatized and tetchy about it. You have the right to carry what you like, but it'd be a real kindness to these folks and me personally if you switched to something more discrete in the future. You have a nice day, now. Sorry again to have bothered you."

Which is how my untrained dumb ass might have handled it. But I'm sure there's good procedural reasons for insulting and scaring folks who aren't breaking the law.

--Anthony





Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Friday, August 20, 2010 9:10 AM

HERO


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
They then proceeded to insult him, call him names, and issue thinly-veiled threats to him and his family, hinting that the next time he acted in a completely legal matter, they might decide to shoot him.

I think I see the problem in a better light now, and I thank you. Lets break it down:

1. 'They proceeded to insult him'- The police have every right to make observations about the wisdom and safety considerations of a person's actions when they, as a result of that person's actions, are brought into contact with them. The person is likewise free to 'take it for what its worth'.

2. 'call him names'- I reviewed the entire tape and he was never called any names. Perhaps you mistake my characterization of the man as an 'idiot' as name calling by the officer. My use of the term was more in the nature of a descriptive term based upon his lack of common sense rather then a formal identifier.

3. 'and issue thinly-veiled threats to him and his family, hinting that the next time he acted in a completely legal matter, they might decide to shoot him.'- The police did not threaten the man in any way. They advised him and his wife that a concerned citizen, not a police officer, might respond negatively to his choice to carry the weapon in the time, place, and manner he was doing so. It was not an unfounded comment given the fact that a number of concerned citizens phoned 911 regarding the man prompting the police response, the fact that it is a high crime area, and the fact that many folks in this area exercise their right to carry a concealed weapon.

You seem to think the police have no right to exercise an opinion or make a comment about safety. I'm not sure what leads you to this belief. You also seem to take personally comments by the police and to characterize them as more then they are. For example, I not sure how you ever stretch this story into a threat by the police that they would shoot him, I was very clear and the recording is very clear that they were advising them that a concerned citizen might shoot him. The possibility of an armed concerned citizen taking action is so real that its incorporated into training scenarios we use. It happens and it we prepare for it, I doubt this man was prepared for it or had even considered it.

So its clear your problems in this case, and perhaps with police in general, are personal/emotional rather then fact-based. I'm not sure how to help you with this, perhaps therapy of some sort.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I find those statements amazing. I said I found your remarks 'amazing'" Niki2, 2010.

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Friday, August 20, 2010 9:25 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

"while advising him that he is extremely stupid..."
"I reviewed the entire tape and he was never called any names."

1+1=2

"we further advised him that his gun was a piece of crap."

Speaking of emotional versus fact-based. Perhaps therapy is indeed warranted.

I'll wait for you to comment on my previous post.

--Anthony


Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Friday, August 20, 2010 9:27 AM

HERO


Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Hero, two questions for you.

______________________________________________
1) Do you think that just because behavior is legal, that it is also good and wise?

I don't think they should build that mosque near Ground Zero.
Quote:

2) If the citizen responds to the officer(s) on the scene in a calm and serious voice that they are shitheels who should bend over and fuck themselves, and that sooner or later someone is likely to murder their asses as payback for accosting the citizenry, could he be arrested?

Can he be arrested for being vulgar and rude to the police? It depends. If other people are around, yes. If its just him and the cops, no.
Quote:

But I'm sure there's good procedural reasons for insulting and scaring folks who aren't breaking the law.

You make a good point. Finally, someone with a legitimate point. It is one I will in fact pass on.

There is a good practical reason for handling things the way the officers did.

Who said this: "When I want it to stick, I give it to them loud and dirty."

We are dealing with real people and the real world. Everyone involved was an adult and sometimes you have to be less then polite to get your point across. The man was doing something legal...but incredibly stupid and irresponsible that put himself, his family, and a lot of people in a dangerous situation.

Your responses is textbook perfect. Real life is not textbook or perfect. These are good officers, highly skilled, experianced, well trained, and have incredible patience (something you don't understand till you watch them on a DUI video). They deal with the ugliness of the real world every day so I defer to their judgement in this situation.

Where I think your advice helps is that it now makes me understand how a police officer can in fact go to far. They are trained to give textbook responses and their experiance will allow them to find the right balance between the textbook, which works in a classroom, and the more realistic less polite approach, which serves best in the real world. I will remind them that they need to preserve and balance, a happy medium because if they stray so far into the real, practicle world while forgetting the textbook...thats when we have trouble (like an officer using excessive force or some other improper or illegal conduct).

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I find those statements amazing. I said I found your remarks 'amazing'" Niki2, 2010.

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Friday, August 20, 2010 9:30 AM

HERO


Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"while advising him that he is extremely stupid..."
"I reviewed the entire tape and he was never called any names."

Again they said his is stupid, a descriptive term based upon his poor decision making skills and apparent lack of common sense. They did not call him any names.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I find those statements amazing. I said I found your remarks 'amazing'" Niki2, 2010.

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Friday, August 20, 2010 9:42 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Hero,

"Can he be arrested for being vulgar and rude to the police? It depends. If other people are around, yes. If its just him and the cops, no."

Well, we know that in this case there were people around. His wife and children. Other passerby for whom the officer purports to be concerned when making his statements. This is another good reason for the Officer to keep the insult out of his opinions. If the citizen isn't free to insult the officer, then the officer ought not to insult the citizen. This kind of disparity is why citizens tend to think of the police as the "Other," treated with suspicion that breeds an attitude of belligerancy.

I mean, if someone got to walk up to you and insult you, but you weren't allowed to respond in kind, how would you feel?

If Officers want to exercise the citizen's right to insult people, they should probably wait until they are off-duty and out-of-uniform. Otherwise they are serving in an official capacity, and their insults carry the weight and protections of the entire police force. It can mean the difference between hating 'that prick' and hating 'the cops.'

In my skewed perception of the world, having a rough job like a police officer's, and having to deal with ugliness constantly... That Doubles the reason to be polite. How else can you hold on to your humanity and ethics except by rigid adherence to honorable conduct? Let go of that, and it all starts slipping away.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Friday, August 20, 2010 9:52 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Again they said his is stupid, a descriptive term based upon his poor decision making skills and apparent lack of common sense. They did not call him any names."

Hello,

There must be a legal distinction that differentiates between calling someone stupid and calling them a name. However, any such distinction escapes me.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Friday, August 20, 2010 11:38 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Anthony, I wanted to mention this, since it was brought up in another thread that seemed to have gotten buried before any notice was taken of it...

But the eventual consequence of mutual contempt between citizens and police is violence, make no mistake about it, and while the story itself wound up buried in the press, there's just something chillingly disturbing about seeing one of your worst-case scenarios come to life in howling fury.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/08/18/texas.shooting/?hpt=Sbin

That's the kinda crap I am hoping to AVOID, cause down that path lies so much needless bloodshed.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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