The term “small businesses” is used all the time by politicians to justify tax cuts. But do people understand exactly what a “small business” IS? It wa..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

To avoid high taxes, firms say they're 'small businesses' when they're not

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 12:29
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 916
PAGE 1 of 1

Friday, September 24, 2010 8:44 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


The term “small businesses” is used all the time by politicians to justify tax cuts. But do people understand exactly what a “small business” IS? It was a real eye-opener for me, a "gasper" in fact:
Quote:

"The top 2 or 3 percent" of all small businesses would see their taxes go up under the Obama plan, Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, fumed this week. "That's 750,000 to 800,000 small businesses! That create most of the jobs in our society!"

The thing is, some of those businesses are not particularly small. They're actually S corporations. An S corporation is simply a corporation that chooses to pass corporate income, losses, deductions and credit through to their shareholders for federal tax purposes.

In fact, they're quite large. Among the firms Republicans want to protect from new taxes are the management team at Wall Street buyout firm Kohlberg, Kravis and Roberts, which recently reported more than $54 billion in assets managed by 14 offices around the world; auditing firm Pricewaterhouse-Coopers, a household name with operations in more than 150 countries; and the Tribune Corp., which owns the Chicago Tribune, the Los Angeles Times and the Baltimore Sun.

KKR, PricewaterhouseCoopers and the Tribune Corp., it turns out, are organized as "pass-through" entities — companies that typically avoid corporate taxes by reporting profits on the individual tax returns of their owners, managers or shareholders.

Next year, the nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation predicts that taxpayers will report about $1 trillion in income from pass-through entities. Only about 3 percent of them will earn more than $250,000.

But not "all of the income is from entities that might be considered 'small,'" the JCT said in a report issued in July. "For example, in 2005, 12,862 S corporations and 6,658 partnerships had receipts of more than $50 million."

A separate analysis by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center found that only about 10 percent of business income above the threshold was reported by sole proprietorships, with the rest coming from partnerships and S corporations, which can be extremely large.

Alan Viard, an economist in the Bush administration who is now at the American Enterprise Institute, agreed that many firms represented in the top tax brackets are hardly small.
Politically, however, it's a very different matter to raise taxes on a Wall Street hedge fund than it is to tax your neighborhood dry cleaner. Which is why Republicans continually define pass-through entities of all sizes as small businesses, a position Viard called a "fallacy."

]
Quote:

"The people that we're talking about, these so-called wealthy, most of them are small-business owners," Conservative pundit Stephen Hayes said.

It's certainly more politically palatable to urge lower taxes for mom-and-pop business owners than for Wall Street fat cats.

But if you are a small business owner yourself, you would have to be a whiz running a very profitable small business. You would have to report total income of more than $200,000 (or $250,000 for couples) after all your business expenses were deducted.

So when you hear people talking about “small businesses”, remember that some of those “small” businesses earn billions of dollars—-they’ve just found a way to call themselves “small” to get tax breaks, they're not your Average Guy trying to build his own business.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off





NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 24, 2010 10:16 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
So when you hear people talking about “small businesses”, remember that some of those “small” businesses earn billions of dollars—-they’ve just found a way to call themselves “small” to get tax breaks, they're not your Average Guy trying to build his own business.


The lesson here is that businesses do not want to pay higher taxes. If you raise their taxes they will hire fewer workers or downsize the workforce they have.

You are also wanting to punish all small businesses because some make too much money.

I also think you are confusing gross versus net earnings. I could have a $100 million in sales with $99,750,000 in overhead. It would make good sense to file as an S corp with my $250,000 profit but now you want to raise my taxes. Guess I'll have to put off that expansion and hold off on the 25 people I planned to hire. Or cut my taxes and let me grow my business and my profit to $500,000. In other words invest in the businessman directly.

The Democrats want to raise the taxes, taking the money from small businesses that they would use to reinvest in their business. That is a problem...so the solution is to loan back the money they took from them in the form of the loan program they passed earlier this week. Something seems off with that thinking...

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 24, 2010 10:27 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

If you raise their taxes they will hire fewer workers or downsize the workforce they have.
No, you're wrong. We've debated that several times and proven it wrong. Nowadays, big companies more often ship jobs overseas for cheaper labor, invest in the market or ship the money off shore. Cutting taxes does NOT create jobs. If we have to go through all that again...jeez
Quote:

The Democrats want to raise the taxes.
That's a lie. They want to let the Bush tax cuts EXPIRE on the very rich, just as they were intended to do from the start.

Other than letting the tax cuts expire, what taxes have the democrats or Obama raised? Specifics, please, not forecasts.

As far as my research indicates, the small-business tax was for ACTUAL small businesses, not just rich s-corps. You know, guys like Joe the Plumber who wanted to start his own business (NOT!). Please cite specifics that show otherwise.

It would be so great if those like you gave up on the false talking point propaganda that "cutting taxes creates jobs", "Reagan was a great President", "Republicans believe in fiscal responsibility"...if you have something valid to debate, please do so, but those are old, tired, and disproven. Oh, and so was "Bush was a great President", by the way.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 24, 2010 10:34 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh, hell, it only takes a couple of minutes, the facts are easy to find:
Quote:

The theory of tax cuts as economic stimulus has been put to the test - and failed - twice in the past six years alone. As the prolonged recession leads more people to once again consider these same old tried-and-failed policies, it is important to revisit recent history.

Less than half the personal tax cuts—especially the types of high-end tax cuts favored by conservatives—are likely to be spent in the first two years. Most of it will be used to pay down debt, build savings, or buy imports - all uses of money that do not boost the U.S. economy.

Consider the $100 billion in personal tax rebates that were issued as part of a broader economic stimulus effort in 2008. Only about one-third of the total amount was spent. A University of Michigan study in December 2008 concluded that these rebates provided “little ‘bang for the buck’ as economic stimulus.”

Similarly, a series of tax cuts in 2003 fell far short of targeted job growth. The Bush administration claimed the tax cuts would create 1.4 million jobs, in addition to some 4.1 million jobs expected to be generated over an 18-month period. But EPI tracked the initiative and found that not only did the additional 1.4 million jobs not appear, but the 4.1 million jobs that had been expected without the tax cuts never materialized either. By the end, the economy only saw an additional 2.4 million jobs added to the economy.

In other words, by the Bush administration’s own metrics, the tax cuts specifically designed to create jobs fell short by a staggering 3.1 million jobs.

Quote:

Despite considerable opposition from lawmakers, including some within his Republican party, President George W. Bush seems determined to push ahead with plans to introduce further cuts in taxes for the rich, continuing to assert that it would create more jobs for the poor.

But the findings of a new study suggest that Bush's claim on job creation is based more on political rhetoric than actual facts related to the nation's economic realities.

"It's a great sound bite that unfortunately does not hold true in the real world economy," say authors of the report, entitled, "Nothing to Be Thankful For: Tax Cuts and the Deteriorating U.S. Job Market."

Changes in tax policy suggest no evidence of their impact on job creation or destruction, according to the 22-page study released Tuesday by United for a Fair Economy (UFE), an independent group that tracks the growing economic divide between the nation's haves and have-nots.

Since 1950, significant tax increases and decreases have both been followed by job losses and job gains, say the researchers.

Based on statistical analysis of changes in tax polices and rates of job growth in the past 60 years, the report points out that tax reduction does, however, disproportionately lead to economic disparity between the rich and poor.

In June 2003, the Bush administration had claimed that the president's tax cut policy would create more than five million jobs by the end of 2004, but the study shows that only 2.6 million jobs were created--1.6 million less than what would have been expected without any special economic stimulus.

Quote:

A standard right wing talking point is that tax cuts for the rich and corporations create jobs.

This is, actually, true. They create jobs overseas.
Quote:

The tax cuts’ two bills, in 2001 and 2003 – changed laws so that personal income tax rates were reduced, exemptions for the Alternative Minimum Tax increased, and dividend and capital gains taxes also cut.

Yet in the debate, it seems of no moment to either side whether the tax cuts were effective in achieving their goal of spurring business investment and making the US economy more competitive.

Our own examination of US non-residential investment indicates that the reduction in capital gains tax rates failed to spur US business investment and failed to improve US economic competitiveness.

The 2000s – that is, the period immediately following the Bush tax cuts – were the weakest decade in US postwar history for real non-residential capital investment.

Not only were the 2000s by far the weakest period, but the tax cuts did not even curtail the secular slowdown in the growth of business structures.

The logic of this is simple enough. If you have money to invest, you're going to invest it where it'll return the most. Right now and in the past couple decades that is either in leveraged financial games, or it is in economies which are growing fast and have low costs. The US does not have high growth compared to China or Brazil or many other developing countries. It has high costs compared to those countries as well.

I could go on and on, but you won't be interested in the FACTS, or the tables I could post which show it visually, or anything else, I imagine. You'll just go on spouting "tax cuts create jobs". I'm really tired of disproven talking points which mean nothing but are used again and again to claim something's true which isn't.

Also: given you and yours are for fiscal responsibility, how does a tax cut that doesn't give the rich much, raises the deficit HUGELY, and doesn't create jobs, fit with that?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 24, 2010 10:57 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


On the "deficit" reduction of tax cuts for the rich:
Quote:

There are a couple of weird arguments that come up when you talk about tax cuts. One is that "tax cuts do not cause deficits. Spending does." This is pretty easy to test: If we cut taxes this year but leave spending unchanged, will anything happen to deficits next year? The answer, of course, is yes. They will go up. Fast.
Quote:

GOP's deficit-detonating tax-cut proposals make the Democrats with their spending look like pikers. The stimulus bill, remember, cost $787 billion. The tax-cut bill that Senate GOP Leader Mitch McConnell unveiled last week—a combination of making permanent the Bush tax cuts and throwing in a host of other tax credits—has a price tag of around $3.9 trillion. For those keeping score at home, the self-styled party of fiscal responsibility wants to blow a hole in the budget nearly five times larger than the alleged profligacy they have spent the last year or more condemning.
Quote:

The projected impact of the tax plan on the deficit would be greater than the combined total of last year’s economic stimulus package and the federal health care reform bill — programs that Paul and Republicans have attacked because of their cost.
Quote:

Eric Cantor finally admitted that extending the Bush tax cuts will increase the deficit.

He basically said, “Sure, less revenues theoretically increase the deficit, but we’re about getting people back to work, and low taxes for ‘job creators’ facilitates that.”

So I wouldn’t say he conceded the point so much as he raised a different one, a point which is equally wrong as the Laffer curve, incidentally. He claims that lower and lower taxes facilitates job creation. But the two Bush terms saw the lowest taxes for the wealthy, presumably the “job creators” Cantor is talking about. And those two terms saw the worst job creation in recorded American history going back to the Depression. This chart from the Wall Street Journal lays it out.

Short version of chart at http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2009/01/09/bush-on-jobs-the-worst-track
-record-on-record
/

Millions of Jobs Created:

Bush 3.0
Clinton 23.1
Bush 2.5
Reagan 16
Carter 10.5
Ford 1.8
Nixon 9.4
Johnson 11.9
Kennedy 3.6
Quote:

Nobody since Hoover had worse annual job growth than George W. Bush, at a time when it was not at all expensive for “job creators” to make money.

I agree with Steve Benen that Cantor is conceding that the economy matters more than the deficit, a key bit of info. But if you think that paves the way for a legitimate discussion of these issues you haven’t seen one Washington Republican speak over the past decade.




Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 24, 2010 12:40 PM

MAL4PREZ


The thing that kills me: we've had these tax cuts for several years now, and what's happened to the economy? Oh yeah, right. It fucking crashed.

Are Americans really this stupid?

(Don't answer that.)

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 24, 2010 1:17 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


"Hero", if you were planning to hire 25 people with that "extra" $250,000 of income, you aren't the kind of business we want in this country in the first place.

All these claims of "businesses won't hire unless you cut taxes!" are simply not backed up by any facts. Businesses won't hire unless they need to, period. Nobody - ESPECIALLY a high-paid CEO - looks around at the end of the year and says, "Hey, I've got all this extra cash and profit lying around! I should hire a bunch more workers I don't need to do the same work!"

If tax breaks led to job creation, Bush would have created more jobs than Clinton. Instead, he created fewer than Carter.

Tax breaks lead to higher CEO profits and bonuses, but there hasn't been a single study to show that higher profits and bonuses have led to increased job creation.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 24, 2010 1:22 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Also, Niki, bear in mind the REAL agenda of the right. They're not against deficits - they're against social programs of any kind, period. They've taken the tactic that if you run up enormous deficits, and THEN start whining about paying for things, it will stand to reason that you can't have ANY social programs (because it's unspeakable to even THINK of cutting any Pentagon spending!).

This is also why they've been so quick to borrow from the Social Security trust fund (over $2.5 trillion and growing!), and when it comes time to pay the money back, they simply say, "We can't afford it!"



AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 24, 2010 1:23 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
The thing that kills me: we've had these tax cuts for several years now, and what's happened to the economy? Oh yeah, right. It fucking crashed.

Are Americans really this stupid?

(Don't answer that.)

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left




But the argument from the righties will be "But you didn't give them time to work!" After all, we only left them in place for a decade, and you certainly can't judge the economic impact of anything in such a short time-span. :)

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 24, 2010 1:46 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
The thing that kills me: we've had these tax cuts for several years now, and what's happened to the economy? Oh yeah, right. It fucking crashed.

Are Americans really this stupid?

(Don't answer that.)

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left




But the argument from the righties will be "But you didn't give them time to work!" After all, we only left them in place for a decade, and you certainly can't judge the economic impact of anything in such a short time-span. :)


Unless you're judging the Obama presidency, of course. Two years? Plenty of time for it to be All Obama's Fault. But 10 years since W took over? Well, we just didn't give his wondrous policies time...

I really despair sometimes, to see that so many Americans are indeed this stupid. Eight years of this stuff crashed our economy, but hey! Let's try a little more!

Idiots.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, September 25, 2010 6:43 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yup.
Quote:

The thing that kills me: we've had these tax cuts for several years now, and what's happened to the economy? Oh yeah, right. It fucking crashed.
Means nothing to them; the words are to further their agenda, nothing more. Pablum for the masses: "We're for fiscal responsibility...don't pay attention to what tax cuts for the rich will add to the deficit...just repeat after us: Government spends too much money! We can't afford _________!" and don't think about it.

The cry might well also be "he didn't give them ENOUGH tax cuts...if he had, you'd have seen massive job growth!" Or the other one; whatever works at the moment.

As to Americans being stupid, by now we should have recognized that politicans have their fingers PERFECTLY on just how stupid Americans are...look at how well it works for them. They're like lab rats; smart enough to realize that if something works, keep doing it and teach it to the next rat!

You'd have liked my bumbersticker after Bush won a second term: "How can 52 million people BE so stupid?!" Logic does not compute, and can't hold a candle to talking points...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, September 25, 2010 6:47 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
"How can 52 million people BE so stupid?!"

"Fear will keep the local systems in line."


The laughing Chrisisall


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:03 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Nobody has to pay income tax to the jew banksters. That's THE LAW!
http://www.americanpendulum.com/2010/02/the-anti-income-tax-movement-w
hy-they-are-right
/

Quote:

"100% of what is collected is absorbed solely by interest on the Federal Debt … all individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services taxpayers expect from government.”
-Grace Commission report submitted to President Ronald Reagan, January 15, 1984

"Not one dime of income taxes goes to support any federal program."
-President Ronald Reagan, George Bushes' CIA cousin John Hinkley Jr shot him (released from loonybin by George Bush Jr and Hussein Obama Soetoro)










NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 27, 2010 7:37 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
"Hero", if you were planning to hire 25 people with that "extra" $250,000 of income, you aren't the kind of business we want in this country in the first place.


I'm not sure I understand your logic. You don't want a small business in this country or you don't want one that will reinvest its profits to create jobs? What is your point?

And I would not have hired 25 people with the $250k, thats my profit...my salary. I'd have paid on my house, put money up for retirement, etc. Then maybe I decide I want MORE money next year so I would take a portion of the money, say $50k and use it as a down payment on an expansion project, the rest financed by good loan terms I can get because I make good profit and I have some cash to put down right away. Once I finish the expansion and the new income comes rolling in THEN maybe its time to think bigger...like going public (the proceeds could be used to pay off the loan I just took and to provide seed capital for the next expansion project).

Thats how small businesses work. They start small, work hard, and if they do well they hire more people to make more money. My City's largest industry started fifty years ago with one employee working out of his Mom's garage, he did deliveries out of a beat up van, now they employ hundreds of people and market their products around the whole country and the owner is filthy rich. But I guess that's not the kind of business you want in this country.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 27, 2010 8:30 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
"Hero", if you were planning to hire 25 people with that "extra" $250,000 of income, you aren't the kind of business we want in this country in the first place.


I'm not sure I understand your logic. You don't want a small business in this country or you don't want one that will reinvest its profits to create jobs? What is your point?



My point is that I don't want sweatshops - which is apparently what your hypothetical business is - which are paying full-time employees $10,000 per year. I understand how you can't do simple math, though. Good thing you aren't setting up an accounting business!

Quote:


And I would not have hired 25 people with the $250k...



So you were lying when you said,

Quote:

It would make good sense to file as an S corp with my $250,000 profit but now you want to raise my taxes. Guess I'll have to put off that expansion and hold off on the 25 people I planned to hire.


So you say you've got an extra 250 large, and you plan on hiring 25 people with that cash. What part of "sweatshop" did you not get?

Quote:

...thats my profit...my salary. I'd have paid on my house, put money up for retirement, etc.


Then you aren't a "job creator". You just don't want to pay your fair share of your salary in taxes.

Quote:

Then maybe I decide I want MORE money next year so I would take a portion of the money, say $50k and use it as a down payment on an expansion project, the rest financed by good loan terms I can get because I make good profit and I have some cash to put down right away.


You really should try that sometime. Really. Good luck with that. Let us all know how it works out.

Quote:

My City's largest industry started fifty years ago with one employee working out of his Mom's garage, he did deliveries out of a beat up van, now they employ hundreds of people and market their products around the whole country and the owner is filthy rich. But I guess that's not the kind of business you want in this country.


Note that they did this over the past 50 years, WITHOUT the Bush tax cuts for the richest Americans being in place for the first 40 of those years, and thus having nothing at all to do with their growth and success. I guess you don't want those kinds of businesses in this country, since you're so quick to kill off the economic climate that led those companies to grow and become successful in the first place.

The Bush tax cuts in essence didn't create one single private-sector job in this country. They created MILLIONS of jobs overseas, of course, because they made it even more lucrative to send American jobs out of the country. Look at the cumulative total of jobs created during the Bush years; it's well under a million - not even close to keeping up with the population growth of those 8 years.

So if you're going to draw any conclusions about the Bush tax cuts, such conclusion can only be that they are a dismal failure at creating jobs, and have failed likewise to reduce deficits, OR to increase revenues, OR to balance the budget. They fail on every single metric.

So you, being a Republican, of course endorse them. You do so love failed economic theories...

The modern definition of "socialist" is anyone who's winning an argument against a tea-bagger.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, September 24, 2010
I hate Obama's America. You're damn right about that.


Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 27, 2010 8:50 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Quote:

If you raise their taxes they will hire fewer workers or downsize the workforce they have.
No, you're wrong. We've debated that several times and proven it wrong.



He wouldn't be a good lil' NeoCon if he wasn't willing to ignore facts in favor of talking points.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 27, 2010 8:57 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
"Hero", if you were planning to hire 25 people with that "extra" $250,000 of income, you aren't the kind of business we want in this country in the first place.


I'm not sure I understand your logic. You don't want a small business in this country or you don't want one that will reinvest its profits to create jobs? What is your point?

And I would not have hired 25 people with the $250k, thats my profit...my salary. I'd have paid on my house, put money up for retirement, etc. Then maybe I decide I want MORE money next year so I would take a portion of the money, say $50k and use it as a down payment on an expansion project, the rest financed by good loan terms I can get because I make good profit and I have some cash to put down right away. Once I finish the expansion and the new income comes rolling in THEN maybe its time to think bigger...like going public (the proceeds could be used to pay off the loan I just took and to provide seed capital for the next expansion project).

Thats how small businesses work. They start small, work hard, and if they do well they hire more people to make more money. My City's largest industry started fifty years ago with one employee working out of his Mom's garage, he did deliveries out of a beat up van, now they employ hundreds of people and market their products around the whole country and the owner is filthy rich. But I guess that's not the kind of business you want in this country.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.



Cute that after a page of posts pointing out your bullshit, all you can respond to is one tiny little element, and with anecdotal evidence.



"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 27, 2010 9:48 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
So you were lying when you said,

Quote:

It would make good sense to file as an S corp with my $250,000 profit but now you want to raise my taxes. Guess I'll have to put off that expansion and hold off on the 25 people I planned to hire.

So you say you've got an extra 250 large, and you plan on hiring 25 people with that cash. What part of "sweatshop" did you not get?


If you read the quote you posted you'll see that I said I'd have to "put off that expansion". You see hiring someone does no good if you don't have a job for someone to do or space for them to work.

Its an INVESTMENT. You build space, create the job, pay the person a competitive salary with benefits, pay the debt service on the loan you just took out, and hopefully once you've paid out all that you make a little something back and if its enough...you do it again to grow your business.

Taking $250k and spreading it out to 25 people is the Democratic way of working. Taking that money and creating 25 good jobs is the Republican way of working.

http://www.amazon.com/Small-Business-Dummies-Eric-Tyson/dp/0470177470/
ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1285616791&sr=1-2-fkmr0...you
might want to read up.
Quote:


Quote:

...thats my profit...my salary. I'd have paid on my house, put money up for retirement, etc.


Then you aren't a "job creator". You just don't want to pay your fair share of your salary in taxes.


Filing as an S corp means that I'd have already paid my taxes along with salaries and overhead thus leaving $250k as the profit. Of that I have to support myself and my family, pay a variety of other taxes, etc. If I have an extra $50k left over then I can save it, reinvest it, or spend it. Saving it does nothing for the economy. You want me to spend it...or better yet reinvest it in my business creating new jobs. Under the Democratic plan the bulk of that extra $50k is not saved, spent, or reinvested...its taken by the govt.
Quote:


Quote:

Then maybe I decide I want MORE money next year so I would take a portion of the money, say $50k and use it as a down payment on an expansion project, the rest financed by good loan terms I can get because I make good profit and I have some cash to put down right away.


You really should try that sometime. Really. Good luck with that. Let us all know how it works out.


When I bought my house I got better rates because I had 10% down and some more money to buy the rate down...its how loans work. Also got better terms on my car because I put down more cash up front along with my trade.

Are you saying you think a bank will not loan money to a business that clears a good profit and that has a large chunk of cash to put down?
Quote:


Note that they did this over the past 50 years, WITHOUT the Bush tax cuts for the richest Americans being in place for the first 40 of those years, and thus having nothing at all to do with their growth and success.


They bought their land and built the big factory in 1984...after the Reagan tax cuts. Their recent expansion was done in 2007...after the Bush tax cuts. In 2008 they closed a facility in another state to move here...because we gave them a tax incentive to pick NE Ohio over North Carolina.
Quote:


The Bush tax cuts in essence didn't create one single private-sector job in this country. They created MILLIONS of jobs overseas, of course, because they made it even more lucrative to send American jobs out of the country. Look at the cumulative total of jobs created during the Bush years; it's well under a million - not even close to keeping up with the population growth of those 8 years.


I think your confusing tax cuts with free trade. I used to agree with Free Traders till I saw NAFTA.
Quote:


So if you're going to draw any conclusions about the Bush tax cuts, such conclusion can only be that they are a dismal failure at creating jobs, and have failed likewise to reduce deficits, OR to increase revenues, OR to balance the budget. They fail on every single metric.


Tax cuts are not the reason for deficits or the failure to balance the budget. That was a failing of the Republican Congress and the President's liberal domestic spending policies. Republican leadership under Bush was far different from the budget balancers under Clinton who got their majority in 1994. Many were gone by the time Bush came around and others left by '02 and '04. We had clearly lost our way. Now we're back, real Republicans, not the rhinos of the last decade.

It pisses you off. I'm ok with that.


H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 27, 2010 9:58 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
No, you're wrong. We've debated that several times and proven it wrong.

He wouldn't be a good lil' NeoCon if he wasn't willing to ignore facts in favor of talking points.


If I have money to reinest in my business and you take it from me in taxes, I wont be reinvesting that money in my business.

I'm not sure how you've proven that wrong...its almost like your the other team and your trash talking and I look at the scoreboard and your losing by forty points. Check out the scoreboard (ie unemployment rate, growth rate, growth rate minus stimulas money, projected growth rates, consumer confidence, rising health costs to individuals and small businesses AFTER ObamaCare kicks in, etc.).

But its ok, you all say, cause your new taxes are exactly what every small business needs to succeed. The problem is that if your new taxes, and we're not just talking about the Bush tax cuts, its Bush tax cuts plus ObamaCare costs plus every other tax and back door cost added in...if all that reduces profit, which it will for most, then that money is not available to be spent, saved, reinvested, or used to retire existing debt. If it eliminates profit entirely, which it will for some, then those businesses will fail. There is no scenario under those conditions that will result in net job creation.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 27, 2010 10:48 AM

STORYMARK


History has proved it. Why are these proposed tax rates so damned scary, when they're still lower than those during the hallowed conservative halcyon days of Reagan - that socialist bastard.

Not that I'm too concerned with getting you to recognize facts - you can't even keep who you're responding to and quoting straight.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 27, 2010 12:36 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Taking $250k and spreading it out to 25 people is the Democratic way of working. Taking that money and creating 25 good jobs is the Republican way of working.



Except that it hasn't worked out that way. Not even close. Bill Clinton, that evil tax-n-spend Democrat you love to point to as being all that's wrong with liberals, created more than 23 million long-term private sector jobs in his 8 years - even though he had "high" taxes, an embittered Congress, AND left with budget surpluses.

Bush, your messiah and chosen one, with a Republican Congress solidly behind him, then turned those balanced budgets and surpluses into ENORMOUS deficits - the largest ever seen in history at the time - all while starting two unjustified, illegal, and immoral wars, which were completely unfunded, AND cutting taxes despite the very people whose taxes he was cutting telling him in no uncertain terms that they didn't want or need the cuts, and they were going to disastrously balloon the deficits and blow up our economy.

And out of all that, he created fewer than a million long-term private sector jobs in eight years of having every one of his policies pushed through.

And as an added "bonus" for the country, he then collapsed the economy on his way out the door.

Yeah, keep telling us all about how the Republicans are so good at job creation and fiscal responsibility. That myth never gets old...

The modern definition of "socialist" is anyone who's winning an argument against a tea-bagger.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, September 24, 2010
I hate Obama's America. You're damn right about that.


Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 27, 2010 12:52 PM

STORYMARK


None of which matters in wingnuttia. Tax cuts solve everything, and just shut the fuck up about "reality". Truthiness is all one needs.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 28, 2010 2:51 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
None of which matters in wingnuttia. Tax cuts solve everything,


Not everything.

For example, a tax cut can not capture or kill Bin Ladden.

But they could solve or lead to a solution to a great many problems.

H



"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 28, 2010 8:33 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
None of which matters in wingnuttia. Tax cuts solve everything,


Not everything.

For example, a tax cut can not capture or kill Bin Ladden.

But they could solve or lead to a solution to a great many problems.

H



"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.




Hey, if those tax cuts result in cuts in defense spending, you and I are in complete agreement.

And you're right - the Bush tax cuts never did a single thing to capture Bin Laden. But Bush was never really that concerned with him, anyway, was he?

The modern definition of "socialist" is anyone who's winning an argument against a tea-bagger.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, September 24, 2010
I hate Obama's America. You're damn right about that.


Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, September 29, 2010 7:49 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
And you're right - the Bush tax cuts never did a single thing to capture Bin Laden.


To be fair it was never tried. How about a targeted Tax Cut for Bin Ladden's head? Five years, no taxes for you (if an individual) or a corporation for delivery of one Osama bin Ladden, alive...or not.

Course you liberals would want it to be progressive. An unemployed person delivering a Bin Ladden would get a bigger tax break then someone else and no Bin Ladden break for anyone making over $250,000 which rules out most small businesses which means that not one job will be created by catching Bin Ladden. Good job Liberals...

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, September 29, 2010 7:56 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:

But they could solve or lead to a solution to a great many problems.




The could, in the same way that pig "could" fly.

Repeating the same thing over and over, doesn't make it true.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, September 29, 2010 9:36 AM

RIGHTEOUS9



I think big businesses have proven lately that they don't need to hire more employees to make a profit...in fact, they can reduce their workforce, and/or send part of it over seas, enjoying relocation tax breaks which are probably too important to "small" businesses for the GOP to have voted to repeal when it recently came up for a vote.

what big business understands is that their money is better spent on politicians than workers, and creating a handful of lobbyist jobs is far more valuable than actually producing something better for the American public.

Eschewing competition in favor of the megacorps is not in any way good for the workforce or for America. I don't want more tax breaks to go to buying more political favor.

I don't want more tax breaks to go to allowing Walmart to create a whole new store, displacing all the small businesses in the area that got a pittance by comparisson. That isn't job creation, and it isn't good for the small businesses that have to try to compete with this.

It is a simple, very fucking simple, truth that while money DOES NOT trickle down, it always evaporates up. If you support the small businesses and the working class families, that money will all continue to circulate in the local and state economies...it will support more innovation and more competition, and more tax revenue, and most of it won't end up buried in the cayman Islands doing nothing for any of us, excepting the defacto royalty in this country that I thought we'd rebelled against at some point in our history.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, September 29, 2010 12:29 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Bang on, Righteous. I wish you'd post more often here; you add such sensible logical ao succinctly, it's a pleasure to read, and takes the bad taste out of my mouth. Thank you!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
Haitian or other illegal immigrants are eating pet cats and pet dogs and invading US parks ponds and eating the ducks and pets of American residents?
Thu, November 7, 2024 18:35 - 58 posts
compilation of 2020 election and vote threads - please add any I missed - & misc posts
Thu, November 7, 2024 18:31 - 129 posts
Free speech: Censored, shouted down, and now under arrest
Thu, November 7, 2024 18:29 - 7 posts
Grifter Donald Trump Has Been Indicted And Yes Arrested; Four Times Now And Counting. Hey Jack, I Was Right
Thu, November 7, 2024 18:19 - 914 posts
Joe* blames Nancy, Harris blames Joe*, everyone in the Democrat Party pointing fingers at everybody but themselves
Thu, November 7, 2024 18:16 - 5 posts
MAGA movement
Thu, November 7, 2024 18:11 - 3 posts
In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Thu, November 7, 2024 17:53 - 4682 posts
Elections; 2024
Thu, November 7, 2024 17:08 - 4627 posts
Trump wins 2024. Republicans control Senate.
Thu, November 7, 2024 16:23 - 19 posts
RFK is a sick man
Thu, November 7, 2024 14:10 - 17 posts
Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
Thu, November 7, 2024 13:41 - 7429 posts
Pedophile Freemasons steal $3-billion from Shriners Hospitals
Thu, November 7, 2024 13:22 - 33 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL