OTHER SCIENCE FICTION SERIES

DOLLHOUSE comic series?

POSTED BY: GWEK
UPDATED: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 16:06
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1606
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Sunday, December 12, 2010 6:17 PM

GWEK


Dark Horse has a page for their upcoming DOLLHOUSE one-shot, in which they mention it as lead-in for the upcoming series:

http://www.darkhorse.com/Comics/17-972/Dollhouse-one-shot-Phil-Noto-co
ver


Series? SERIOUSLY? Why is it that Joss Whedon has had four TV series and FIREFLY is the only one that DOESN'T get a series?!??!?

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Monday, December 13, 2010 4:38 AM

BYTEMITE


Joss Whedon laughs at your pain. Embrace the darkness!

Actually, I suspect more than anything two reasons Firefly hasn't been serialized in comic book form. 1) Joss really was deeply hurt when he couldn't finish the story, the movie was just a bandaid over the gaping wound, and he can't really bring himself to do any more. 2) He still has some hope that he'll get a chance to start it back up on television.

Maybe both, in some manner of contradictory emotional torment known to wrack artists and writers.

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Monday, December 13, 2010 5:04 AM

GWEK


I don't disagree with either of the reasons you've pointed out, although with respect to #2, I feel like THE SHEPHERD'S TALE was very much an admission of defeat ("Even if I do get to tell the story, it won't be the way I wanted it to be.")

Joss has said that the loss of Firefly is a wound that will never completely heal, and if Dollhouse is any example, I think that the wound has hurt him creatively, taken away some of his "mojo," as it were.

Part of what annoys me so about the Dollhouse comic is that Joss previously said there wouldn't be a Dollhouse comic. He said the story and the medium did not really fit. So, frankly, it makes the whole thing feel a little sell-outy to me.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Monday, December 13, 2010 7:42 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

So, frankly, it makes the whole thing feel a little sell-outy to me.


Dear Joss, if you really sell out, we'll worship you forever and won't think any less of you. :o

Please make money, and lots of it, and revisit your franchises however often you want. Love, the fans.

P.S. doFireflynextpleaseplease?


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Monday, December 13, 2010 8:01 AM

BYTEMITE


EDIT: Note to self. Sugar rush making everything funny does not translate to more universal amusement.

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Monday, December 13, 2010 9:39 AM

GWEK


I guess my biggest problem is just that I want DOLLHOUSE to go away. I don't think it was really good enough to re-visit, and I'd rather he do new things.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Monday, December 13, 2010 11:11 AM

ZEEK


What is there left to cover in the comic? We know the ending. We know what was going on. We know who's behind everything. What are these like the untold stories?

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Monday, December 13, 2010 1:00 PM

BYTEMITE


We could argue the same thing about the Buffy and Angel series, which stopped the end of the world, or Firefly, which flew off into the stars after a rather pyrrhic victory against the Alliance.

A story doesn't have to end if the story teller wants to keep telling it. We might be able eventually to argue that they're continuing it on well past the point of any meaning or relevance, but if they're having fun and people still want to listen, it's an empty complaint.

In real life, the story doesn't end when the hero gets the girl or beats the evil empire, but we rarely get to see that aftermath except in fanfic.

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Monday, December 13, 2010 2:01 PM

ZEEK


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
We could argue the same thing about the Buffy and Angel series, which stopped the end of the world, or Firefly, which flew off into the stars after a rather pyrrhic victory against the Alliance.

A story doesn't have to end if the story teller wants to keep telling it. We might be able eventually to argue that they're continuing it on well past the point of any meaning or relevance, but if they're having fun and people still want to listen, it's an empty complaint.

In real life, the story doesn't end when the hero gets the girl or beats the evil empire, but we rarely get to see that aftermath except in fanfic.


That's why you should never go see a movie based on a true story. Real life is lame.

The end of Dollhouse was way way way more final than Buffy, Angel or Firefly. To even imply anything else is just being silly. If you really believe they're similar then there's no sense in even having a conversation.

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Monday, December 13, 2010 2:12 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

That's why you should never go see a movie based on a true story. Real life is lame.


And yet, crapsack as this world is and deeply troubled as I am myself personally, I would have to argue AGAINST giving up on real life.

Quote:

To even imply anything else is just being silly. If you really believe they're similar then there's no sense in even having a conversation.


I would argue that there's no point in having a conversation more because I haven't SEEN Buffy and Angel. However, I have seen Dollhouse, obviously I've seen Firefly, and I can think of numerous directions both could go from where they "end." I assumed the same of the Buffy and Angel comic books, partially because the continuation comic books exist.

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Tuesday, December 14, 2010 6:17 AM

GWEK


You probably shouldn't make assumptions about things that you don't know anything about.

For the record, BUFFY end with her defeating a major Big Bad, at the expense of the lives of a few of her supporting cast, as well as the destruction of Sunnydale (the setting for the 7-season run of the show). This ends one chapter in Buffy's life, but there is no reason that she won't go on to have further adventures. In fact, during Season 7, she increasingly positions herself as a leader, rather than as a lone warrior, and that is much of what Joss deals with in the Season Eight comic book.

While Buffy constantly defeats evil, ANGEL is thematically the opposite: it's about the truth that evil can't ever be truly defeated--and therefore the noble thing to do is keep fighting (even though he and his allies KNOW they will eventually go down fighting). The finale of the ANGEL TV series is a bit rushed--it feels like Joss crams into a few episodes what was supposed to be a season-long story arc--but it ends on a pitch-perfect scene with the heroes having taken down some major villaisn only to be faced with a literal army of monsters. Do the run? Nope. They stay and fight, like Butch and Sundance.

Now, personally, I have always been far less excited about the ANGEL comic than the BUFFY one, because the TV series ends so well. On the other hand, ANGEL has always had an incredibly well-developed supporting cast (arguably, Angel himself is the least interesting character) and although the finale is a summation of the theme of the show, many of the character arcs are left open ended.

In sharp contrast, As Zeek points out, the finale of DOLLHOUSE completes the whole story. Many of the major characters are killed, and those who survive pretty much all complete their character arcs (especially Echo/Caroline, the main protagonist). While it IS possible to "fill in the blanks" (like the last season of ANGEL, DOLLHOUSE rushes things to reach a satisfying finale), why bother? Most of the open-ended questions are not compelling enough to merit further detail, and the supporting cast is not nearly as compelling as that of any other Whedon shows, so there is no "Who is Book?" or "What is Inara's secret?" going on here.

Further adventures would likely feature prodiminantly new characters. I wouldn't be surprised if Caroline/Echo doesn't appear at all, and the Dollhouse has already been destroyed... so any "further adventures" are pretty much by definition something that has only a tangential connection to "DOLLHOUSE" itself.

Is it POSSIBLE to dream up further DOLLHOUSE stories? Of course. Anyone with an ounce of imagination can come up with a way to continue virtually ANY story. But SHOULD there be further DOLLHOUSE stories? That's where my doubt sets in. The world and characters are not particularly compelling, and were saved largely by a modicum of Joss's magic touch combined with terrific casting. The comic series, apparently, will have neither, and that seems to me to be a recipe for an epic failure.

By the way, it is a HUGE mistake to think that SERENITY was the "end" of FIREFLY in any way, shape, or form. Whedon has stated that he had a (very rough) seven-year arc in mind for the crew and the story we see in the movie is roughly analagous to Season Two. We've barely seen a quarter of the story he planned to tell (unlike DOLLHOUSE, where he said he got to the end of the story).



www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Tuesday, December 14, 2010 6:50 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

You probably shouldn't make assumptions about things that you don't know anything about.


Actually, you can make perfectly valid assumptions about something you know nothing about so long as those assumptions are justified.

I'm never experienced rape or slavery, nor do I know much about it, and yet I can be pretty confident in universally condemning both. Similarly, I've never read Twilight, and I don't have to, firstly because I hate vampires (guess why I've never watched Buffy or Angel?), and secondly because I've heard enough about the central relationship between Bella and Edward to know that I'd just find it deeply disturbing.

Considering my assumption was that a continuation of Buffy and Angel is justified, and that your own argument is that a continuation of Buffy and Angel is justified and worthwhile, I kinda have to conclude that my assumption therefore is justified as well. Certainly, it's an arguable position, one that I would have support from people who like the Buffy and Angel comics for ammunition against those who don't.

Similarly, there are people who LIKE Dollhouse. So I must make the same statements and assumptions here, and my conclusion is the people who like Dollhouse will find a continuation fully justifiable... As would those of us who would like to see a continuation of Firefly.

Anything else is just interfandom rivalry, rather like those who hate Firefly because they thought it "took Joss away" from Angel and Buffy. Now you're saying you'd want to do the same to people who like Dollhouse? What about Dr. Horrible 2, would you want Joss to stop work on that just so we all could have more Firefly?

If Joss thinks he can make a Dollhouse continuation and wants to do it, then he probably can. He's a good enough writer that arguing that the comics wouldn't have merit is likely a losing position, as such, the quality of the comics will simply come down to personal opinion. In either case, you don't have to buy them, and I wouldn't blame you, because I probably won't buy them either.

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Tuesday, December 14, 2010 7:39 AM

GWEK


Quote:

...I kinda have to conclude that my assumption therefore is justified as well.


You're general assumption was that the endings of all four Whedon series are comparable. They are not.

But, yes, you're right. You're welcome to speculate as wildly as you'd like.

Quote:

Similarly, there are people who LIKE Dollhouse.


While this is correct (I myself enjoyed the series a bit), a few facts remain:

1) The series was one of the lowest-rated (if not THE lowest rated) TV series ever renewed. It does not have a broad audience (like BUFFY and ANGEL), nor does it seem to have a particularly intense audienc (like FIREFLY). The fact that the show could not retain a majority of Whedon "loyalists" is problematic in and of itself.

By the way, if you are not aware, the FOX executives admitted after that fact that one of the main reasons they renewed the show was not because it merited renewal, but because they were afraid of the Browncoats and a repeat of what happened with FIREFLY.

2) Joss said the story is over. That's huge. When the major creative force behind something says it's done, and that the story has been told, there is probably a good reason for that. I don't remember Shakespeare penning HAMLET II.

Quote:

So I must make the same statements and assumptions here, and my conclusion is the people who like Dollhouse will find a continuation fully justifiable... As would those of us who would like to see a continuation of Firefly.


Again, the key difference here is Joss has said DOLLHOUSE = done, FIREFLY = not done.

Quote:

Now you're saying you'd want to do the same to people who like Dollhouse?


You're missing the point. I don't want a DOLLHOUSE comic because I don't think it will be good. Why do I think this? Because the story has already been told, because the universe was mediocre to begin with, and because Joss doesn't appear to be directly involved.

Quote:

What about Dr. Horrible 2, would you want Joss to stop work on that just so we all could have more Firefly?


Personally, I would prefer that Joss move on to new things (much as a I love FIREFLY)... but if the House of Whedon is involved in a continuation of another TV series, FIREFLY is certainly a better choice than DOLLHOUSE. FIREFLY has a relatively large fan base and can theoretically reach a new audience of sci fi fans (the fact that Dark Horse also publishes Star Wars should not be lost on anyone). DOLLHOUSE, on the other hand, may have a small group of people who would be interested, but is largely a footnote in Joss's career rather than one of his seminal works.

Quote:

If Joss thinks he can make a Dollhouse continuation and wants to do it, then he probably can. He's a good enough writer that arguing that the comics wouldn't have merit is likely a losing position, as such, the quality of the comics will simply come down to personal opinion.


Theoretcally, I agree with you... but the description of the one-shot does not include Joss's name. Yes, Jed Whedon was a good writer on the series, but he's not nearly on par with his brother. I don't think he's good enough to salvage DOLLHOUSE.

Whedon himself regularly writes the BUFFY series but seems to have little direct impact on ANGEL... and you can tell. I'm seeing more of that here, and DOLLHOUSE does not have the advantages of being a series that ran for 5 seasons and was pretty well-received, especially during the end of its run (as ANGEL was).

Quote:

In either case, you don't have to buy them, and I wouldn't blame you, because I probably won't buy them either.


And that's the problem, isn't it? You are a Dollhouse fan arguing in favor of the comic... but you're admitting that you "probably won't buy" it. (On the other hand, despite thinking that a DOLLHOUSE comic is a bad idea, I probably WILL buy the comic, because a) I'm a Whedon compleatist, and b) I have sufficient disposable income that another comic or two doesn't matter).

If the comic is going to have trouble retaining the already-miniscule DOLLHOUSE audience and has little/no chance of growing a new audience, what's the point?!?

From both a business viewpoint and a creative one, there seems to be little justification for the product.



www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Tuesday, December 14, 2010 8:09 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

2) Joss said the story is over. That's huge.


This is something that you can never take for granted. :P The head writer can change their mind, or someone asks permission (and they'd have to) and they get the go ahead.

The later appears to be what happened here. Jed asked Joss for a franchise he could play with and build his resume, kind of like Zach asked if he could do Shepherd's Tale when Joss couldn't find another writer.

If the other Whedon brothers want to stretch their wings, who am I to decry that? It's actually kinda nice of all of them to get along like that. :)

Quote:

Whedon himself regularly writes the BUFFY series but seems to have little direct impact on ANGEL... and you can tell. I'm seeing more of that here, and DOLLHOUSE does not have the advantages of being a series that ran for 5 seasons and was pretty well-received, especially during the end of its run (as ANGEL was).



So... I'm starting to think I don't understand what your point is at all. The creation of these comic books has already been decided, Dark Horse thinks they can market them, they're going to be made. It's not like this hurts anyone, even if Dark Horse loses money on it they have plenty of cash cow franchises that can make up the difference. And apparently people are going to buy them. You're going to buy it. So you're complaining in advance that you're going to buy it and it's going to be bad? Or you're complaining about it because you don't really want it but feel like you kinda have to get it because it's a Whedon?

Quote:

And that's the problem, isn't it? You are a Dollhouse fan arguing in favor of the comic... but you're admitting that you "probably won't buy" it.


I'm a Dollhouse fan? News to me. I didn't hate it, but I didn't think it was the best thing since sliced bread either. Really kind of ambivalent, though I gave it my best try.

I'm more arguing for Dollhouse comics because it's what the Whedons want.

Honestly, I can't afford comic books. Each new Serenity comic book is a splurge for me, but it's kind of an event, so. I'd buy Dr. Horrible comic books too if I could, but I can't.

Quote:

If the comic is going to have trouble retaining the already-miniscule DOLLHOUSE audience and has little/no chance of growing a new audience, what's the point?!?


The Whedons want to do it. Jed wants to put something in his portfolio. There you go.

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Tuesday, December 14, 2010 4:06 PM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN


Sorry, I've been lurking this discussion, and I think you two (Gwek, Bytemite) wound up saying what I was thinking all along - the Dollhouse comic books aren't really Joss's thing, they are Jed's (and Mo's, i suspect). I never got the impression Joss was as invested in DH (and frankly, I don't blame him) and while he guards Firefly pretty closely (and I think the fact that all of the comics have to do with the PAST and not the future is pretty telling), he doesn't seem particularly protective of DH, so while HE is probably more or less done with it, I doubt he cares much if Jed feels like doing whatever.

Anyway, DH fans will be happy about it, so good for them I guess. Although potential story arcs or lack there of aside, I am not sure how it can be played out in comic book form...

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