Riddle Me This. by Wulfenstar

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Riddle Me This.

POSTED BY: WULFENSTAR
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 11:34
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1047
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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 8:07 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

1. We now allow TSA to take naked, biometric scans of us.

Why?

2. Brian Aitken is now free. But he was facing 7 years for the legal possesion of handguns.

Why was he locked up in the first place?

3. We let ourselves be tracked, constantly, by someone. From the credit cards we use, to our cellphones, our laptops, FaceBook, the black boxes in our cars, OnStar, the many different redlight cameras, speed cameras, laptop cameras, X-Box kinect...I can go on.

Why? Why are we so willing to give up our privacy? Our freedom of anonymity?

4. There is a lawsuit now stating that McDonalds is circumventing parental control by offering a toy in their Happy Meals.

Why are so many willing to not be parents? Willing to give up parental control, for some government control?

Maybe I'm a little paranoid. I do watch the newsfeeds everyday, and I'm starting to connect the dots. (These are just a few)

Are we looking at an Alliance-style set of CONTROL?

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 8:38 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Are you going to stick around for this one, actually participate in the discussion you claim you want, or are you going to run away again?

This Space For Rent!

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 8:48 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Got a few hours.

Whatcha got?

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 9:01 AM

KWICKO

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=46775

This Space For Rent!

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 9:11 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Are we looking at an Alliance-style set of CONTROL?

Yes. Cause we need to have a war on drugs and terrorists.

Here is the riddle. Are you willing to give up the War on Drugs and the War on Terrorism to regain our liberties?

Are your fellow citizens?

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 9:27 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Kwick: Read it. Still not seeing a plan of action for the TSA.

You also didnt answer any of the other questions.

Cant: "Here is the riddle. Are you willing to give up the War on Drugs and the War on Terrorism to regain our liberties?"

War on Drugs? Not my war. Never really supported it. Except.. denying access to things like crack, meth and heroin... well, that doesn't seem like such a bad idea.

Prolem being, of course, that people are going to get it anyways. You end up punishing the user, instead of treating them.

But the Drug War is a whole nother thing.

"War on Terror"? Yes, I agree that this is what is used to impliment these attacks on our liberties. Yet, there are terrorists....

So... maybe... we let people take care of themselves? I don't know.

But I do know this. (And its going to sound pretty harch)... I would rather 1 plane blow up, then to doom generations to government slavery.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 12:44 PM

KWICKO

Wulfie: It was YOUR post. You disappeared from it the second you asked the question. Where's YOUR plan of action?

You've been scolding "libs/progs" for months now (years, really) asking "What are you going to do? What's YOUR plan?"

So I'm asking. What's your plan?

You seem to have a major hard-on for the TSA. What's your big plan to take them down? Shoot one or two screeners? That should probably work...[/sarcasm]

We have a TSA because TPTB wanted it that way. You celebrated the Citizens United decision as "a great day for freedom of speech". That decision allows megacorporations to swamp the system with money, meaning nothing "the people" want will ever again matter anywhere near as much as what "the corporations" want.

You wanted this. This is your "free market" at work. You get whatever the government gets sold by the lobbyists.

Ain't free speech grand? Enjoy it while you can.

As for the guy who was arrested on gun charges? I *would* say he should sue. But you no doubt would like to see tort reform, too, so any monetary damages he might recoup from the city or state would be capped at less than $100,000 before legal fees, so that's probably not going to provide much of a disincentive to the police to stop doing this kind of shit.

This Space For Rent!

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 1:44 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

You really have no clue, do you Kwick?

I mean, talk about PREJUDICE......

Prejudgement, without thought to the free ideal of each man or woman.

But go ahead, Kwick. You've got all the answers.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 1:55 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
You really have no clue, do you Kwick?

I mean, talk about PREJUDICE......

Prejudgement, without thought to the free ideal of each man or woman.

But go ahead, Kwick. You've got all the answers.

Thing is, Wulfie, I *don't* have all the answers. And neither do you. But rather than actually admit as much, you hide behind buzzwords and meaningless bullshit video clips. It's all you ever do. I'm not "prejudging" you - I'm going off your past history of behavior.

You've stated quite openly that you could NEVER vote for any kind of progressive, liberal, or democrat. So right off the bat, you've ruled out a good 50% of the people you need to help you in your task, and some of them have been the very ones DEFENDING your rights and fighting for the things you claim are your core beliefs. And you'd write them off - hell, to hear you say it, you'd gladly shoot us in the head, or deport us, or grind us under the dirt.

Want to prove me wrong? Do it. Join the ACLU. Become an activist. Hell, become a community organizer. But you won't, because you view such people and such groups as "commies" or "socialists", and completely ignore that they routinely fight for EVERYBODY'S rights. The ACLU fought for the rights of neo-Nazis to march in a predominantly Jewish town, not because they agreed with the Nazis, but precisely because they ABHORRED what those people stood for, but realized that even abhorrent speech still has a right to exist as free speech.

But you wouldn't know - or care - anything about that, because they're a bunch of "libs/progs" in your eyes, and therefore worthless.

This Space For Rent!

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 2:09 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Kwick: Read it. Still not seeing a plan of action for the TSA.

You also didnt answer any of the other questions.

Cant: "Here is the riddle. Are you willing to give up the War on Drugs and the War on Terrorism to regain our liberties?"

War on Drugs? Not my war. Never really supported it. Except.. denying access to things like crack, meth and heroin... well, that doesn't seem like such a bad idea.

See, that's the problem in a nutshell - "Not my war". "Not my problem." You claim you never really supported it, but my bet is, you never really opposed it or fought against it, either.

You seem to grasp desperately onto one issue at a time, and get really really pissed about that issue (for a little while), and you can't seem to understand why others aren't exactly as pissed as you are, when you are.

I can make the same claim to your TSA worries that you make about the war on (some) drugs: "Not my war". I don't fly. Wait - scratch that. I don't fly *commercial*. So why should I care about the TSA? Convince me.

Note that I'm not saying I *don't* care - I'm just wondering why I should. It doesn't affect me, does it?

But see, I know that it DOES affect me, if not today, then soon, and for the rest of my life (to borrow a phrase from Bogey). Today it's airliners, tomorrow it's private planes, the day after that it's the train, and next week it's the city bus...

But still, what are YOUR plans for it? On Election Day, you swore everything had changed, and "the adults are now in charge". So what are all you "adults" going to do? Can you show me one single teabag candidate who's sponsoring legislation to do away with the TSA?

Quote:

Prolem being, of course, that people are going to get it anyways. You end up punishing the user, instead of treating them.

On that, we may have the beginnings of an agreement. Putting people in jail for drugs is akin to fucking for virginity. There are probably more dangerous drugs available in prison than anywhere else people are likely to be.

And putting people into rehab and probation is far cheaper and more effective, too. Gotta start thinking about not just spending LESS, but spending SMARTER at the same time.

Quote:

But the Drug War is a whole nother thing.

"War on Terror"? Yes, I agree that this is what is used to impliment these attacks on our liberties. Yet, there are terrorists....

So... maybe... we let people take care of themselves? I don't know.

But I do know this. (And its going to sound pretty harch)... I would rather 1 plane blow up, then to doom generations to government slavery.

Problem is, it seems many people agree with that sentiment, right up until that 1 plane blows up - THEN they want action, and right now, dammit!

Wulfie, I know you think I'm busting your balls and being unduly harsh towards you. That's not my intention. I'm *trying* to get you thinking about the BIG issues, instead of focusing on the little ones.

This Space For Rent!

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 2:23 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Kwick. Im going to Youtube you. I don't get upset for a "little while". I don't care for "a little bit".

Every single time I see things like the TSA, the Brian Aitkins case, etc.. its cumulative.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 2:54 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

and...

When are we going to ALL (even the Big Government slaves) say that enough is enough?

THIS FAR, NO FURTHER?

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 3:23 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
THIS FAR, NO FURTHER?

I was there 5 miles and 2 decades ago.

I'm glad you are at that point, Wulf.

We need to stop the war on drugs and war on terror. We need to put up a "under new management" sign and pull out of Afghanistan and Iraq and stop fucking with people in other countries. That alone will stop terrorism.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 3:41 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Because people like YOU DEMANDED IT, Wulfie.

People shouting "Do Something!" without the slightest fucking clue of WHAT, who then chose to place their trust in the very folk who herded them into having that exact reaction, for that explicit purpose.

And here you are again, shouting "Do Something!"...

And when the question of WHAT, comes up again, you drop back ten and punt - I already gave you the only chance you'd ever get from me, and with much patience and tolerance, and all I got for it was your complete and utter cowardice when the rubber met the road and it required actual effort on your part.

You really think imma ever forget that, especially when you add a heavy side order of racism and intolerance to your rhetoric, while mocking and ridiculing the efforts of the people who *did* stand up when it counted ?

You've chosen your path, boy, there's no point in whinging about it before me, that's for damn sure.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 7:25 PM

DREAMTROVE

Wulfs musings have gotten increasing on target.

People here often forget that Wulf is a lot younger than most of us, god, I'd hate to be judged for the political positions that I held when I was his age, let alone those I got from college. I think there was a point there where I would've supported a soviet revolution.

We take for granted what we know and understand, but much of it came to us rather recently.

Like, CTS, consider your own comment just now, in that context. Wulf has made some great strides, and for that, I applaud him. If it seems he was slow to catch on, remember how slow each of us was tl catch on.

Wulf,

A little tip about politics.

You are grouping things together which don't naturally go together, their union is in that you care about those issues, this may seem natural, but it is hard to find an audience for such a message, in general. Try to think about logical groupings and how well tied to each other they are,

For instance: people who oppose our imperialist agenda overseas are likely to also oppose the abuses of the patriot act, but it doesn't follow that they will feel the same way about guns and happy meals.

Today, I was struck by a story of a Brazilian groom who shot his wife, his best man and himself. Clearly, an argument of unknown content proceeded it, and I would just guess, knowing humans as I do, that it involved an affair between the best man and the bride, and that this, or drugs, or a number of other things, led to his spree killing.

But none of these things really did. His having a gun did it. If he didn't have a gun, he probably would have become really upset, maybe hit someone, and then have been overpowered by the many wedding guests. Then he would have had time to rethink the matter, and have asked for an annulment instead.

So, how would I reconcile this with the 2a?

Easily

Right to bear arms. Not guns. Arms. I was planning to start a thread entitled "My right to my own personal strain of small pox"

Well, why now? How about my own personal mobile nuclear missile launcher? Can I have a Russian implosion device? Maybe a Moab or two, and a stealth bomber to deliver them in, he'll, give me a couple of predator drones, and a few more for the kids, just to play with.

Its pretty simple. The 2nd is clear: for the security of a free state. How does one loon with seven guns support the security of a free state? How do guns? Aren't guns just used to create infighting in black communities by the CIA?

I'm being insitful here, sure, but my point is that not everyone is going to see this the same way. When frem said cameras are the new guns, I took it seriously. After all, we will never really be allowed to have firepower that has any more than a 0% chance against a robot army of predator drones, so we need some other form of combat.

You can feel free to disagree with that analysis, or the idea that guns should be owned, as the 2a suggests, within the auspices of a well ordered militia, but at the very least you should recognize that when you hit a long list of unrelated items, you're bound to lose some people on some of them.

Here's a surefire was to avoid this:

Hyper focus. Take a long list of things that essentially amount to invasion of privacy

TSA Body scanners
domestic wiretapping
RFID
Spying on and assassinating Americans
Secret torture prisons
Homeland security
Patriot act

Etc,

Now if I were to build such a list, I'd add border security to it, I don't think its the govts, business if someone wants to go to Mexico, or come from Mexico, and any surveillance of Mexicans is still unwarranted surveillance, and if that doesn't hit close enough to home for you, it will, because once they have it set up, din you really think they're only going to use it on mexicans?

What a out speed trap cameras? Random stops by police?

I just got a ticket and a letter informing me that my license would be suspended because I took a random public road that was unmarked. Not a private road, a public road, with my legal car. Why? Because the road was classified for limited use for official vehicles only. So, now there are public roads that the public is not allowed to drive on. And if you venture down them, your license will be revoked.

Then it occurs to me, why do I have a license? Or plates? Okay, someone maybe has to prove I'm not a road menace, but why not do that when I buy a car? Then if I pass, I can get a car, after all, that's what they do for the car, but not give the govt. Control over where and when I can drive. Ive been in a few accidents, and I can say that the anecdotal chances of me having an accident

1) road failure. Something in the infrastructure is fucked up, so I have an accident, patch of ice, gravel, something not taken care of that should have been
2) commercial vehicles, trucks
3) mechanical failure of the vehicle
4) my error.

None of these sre really curbed by my licensing, this license seems to exist to track me, and ban me if I take the wrong road,

I digress, but it's just an example of this sort of thing going on for a long time.

See my thread on information anonymous, because I thick this is connected to our rights as free Americans relating to our right to be untracked.

And yes, I know where this one leads. My great grandparents were on a list tracking their every movement for four years before the govt. Decided to kill them for being Jewish.

Oh, and yes, they did take that time to get out of the country. It didn't help, the Nazis tracked them down. The only secure defense against this is not to be tracked in the first place.

Fasicsm creeps slowly. But yes, you definitely have a point here.

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Wednesday, December 22, 2010 7:42 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Fasicsm creeps slowly. But yes, you definitely have a point here."

Thanks.

"But none of these things really did. His having a gun did it. If he didn't have a gun, he probably would have become really upset, maybe hit someone, and then have been overpowered by the many wedding guests."

Or, he could have gotten into his car and driven thru the crowd. Picked up a rock. Grabbed a knife. Used a pen.

Fascism begins with a few things.

1. Gun/Weapon Control

2. Movement (Travel) Control

3. Information Control.

4. Tracking of the Population.

5. Control of Medical Care (new one)

6. Monetary Value Control.

7. Breakdown/Purposeful destruction of "families"

8. Political Correctness

9. Making the population reliant on the governing body. For food, shelter, heat, etc.

10. Government takeover of private business.

11. Fear. Using the "other" as a scapegoat.

Tell me this has not been going on for the past 20 years. In fact, its been accelerated.

As a side note... DT, can you answer me this? I take it by your comments that you are jewish. After having seen what is done by government, to your own people, how come such a large percentage of jewish people are ok with this? Speaking from personal experience here, most of the jewish folks I know vote progressive (or National Socialist as I view them to be)?

Another question: I believe that many Progressives KNOW that they are trying to set up a 2 part culture. The Haves, and the HaveNots. They believe they will be part of the Haves, and look forward to the day when they are "on top". Are people so blind as to not realize that the Middle Class, the "Almost Haves" are the stalwart protectors of society? The ones who work to be "Haves" while also working to prevent from being the "HaveNots"?

(Before Niki, Kwick, Frem et-all jump on this... especially the "fear part", they should explain or state whether or not they believe we are living (or starting to live) in a fascist state...)

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Wednesday, December 22, 2010 9:06 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I, too, am glad to see you arriving at this point. If you eventually get to the point of recognizing that people have been willing to accept loss of their rights because they believe it’s necessary to lose them for the government to “protect” us, I’ll be even happier.

Quote:
1. We now allow TSA to take naked, biometric scans of us.

Why?

2. Brian Aitken is now free. But he was facing 7 years for the legal possesion of handguns.

Why was he locked up in the first place?

3. We let ourselves be tracked, constantly, by someone. From the credit cards we use, to our cellphones, our laptops, FaceBook, the black boxes in our cars, OnStar, the many different redlight cameras, speed cameras, laptop cameras, X-Box kinect...I can go on.

Why? Why are we so willing to give up our privacy? Our freedom of anonymity?

4. There is a lawsuit now stating that McDonalds is circumventing parental control by offering a toy in their Happy Meals.

Why are so many willing to not be parents? Willing to give up parental control, for some government control?

Okay:

1. Because we’ve been brainwashed into a climate of fear, rejecting civil liberties in favor of supposed “safety”, which isn’t safety at all, it’s a way for people to gain power over us.

2. According to Wikipedia:

Quote:
Brian Aitken is a resident of the US state of New Jersey who was arrested and imprisoned there for possession of handguns in violation of that state's relatively restrictive gun laws.

On January 2, 2009 Aitken's mother contacted police to attend to her son after he became distraught over a dispute with his ex-wife. The responding officers searched his car and discovered two locked and unloaded handguns in the trunk. Gun laws in the United States vary widely by state and require expert knowledge to tease through the differences

Given that, it seems to me he was arrested in violation of New Jersey’s gun laws. Given gun laws are confusing, as it says above, it appears to be persecution to me, but the legal system can utilize any laws they want to rationalize throwing someone in jail, and if his guns broke New Jersey law, they can imprison him. Seems it’s all over, now he’s out, and something which was wrong, in my opinion, has been corrected. That’s the best answer I can give.

3. See #1.

4. Because people are lazy. Having children brings with it responsibilities; unfortunately, far too many people don’t care about that, and have children for the wrong reason or just because that’s “what you do”. They don’t think about the responsibilities, and the fact of the huge obesity problem in the country illustrates that. People do what’s convenient/cheap without thought to long-term consequences, and that’s far too true when it comes to what they feed their children.

I find Mike’s responses irrelevant, given you asked the questions “why”, rather than saying “what can we do about it”. If you get to the point of feeling strongly enough about it to stand up against what is happening, then I would like to hear your suggestions on how to change these things. But that’s not what you asked. I’ve answered as best I can.

The War on Drugs is a joke; it’s cost us billions and drugs still abound. It may have been started with some kind of sincere intention, but it’s become nothing more than a way to enlarge government and government’s control of us, at an incredible cost and for no gain. The War on Terror is much the same, given our government’s been found to work WITH terrorists, buy people off, profit from the supposed “war” and do many other things which are in direct contrast to what a “war” on terrorism would involve. Added to that, both are ways to again increase government’s control of the population, as well as excusing their erosion of civil rights. Yes, in the end an Alliance-type of governing is what is being sought, and being achieved to a degree.

To answer your question, I wouldn’t say “fascist”, but certainly I have long seen how government uses ways to control the populace and deny them their civil rights. I have expressed my hatred of the Patriot Act, wire tapping, and all the other things openly done by the last administration to enhance it’s power over the populace. Why you might think I believe otherwise I don’t know, given I’ve expressed my anger about these things many times.

How you come to believe it’s PROGRESSIVES who want to set up a state of “haves” and “have nots” confuses me. I’d suggest you look at history and decide exactly who has provided special gimmes to the rich and corporations, who has cut funding to the poor (which funding might more help them become the middle class), who has helped most to destroy the middle class, who wanted to bail out Wall Street but fought like hell to keep from assisting our manufacturing base (bearing in mind that Wall Street and the banks have hoarded those funds to increase profits and provide huge salaries and bonuses rather than increase loans, as it was intended to do, whereas the manufacturing sector has paid back the loans and created new manufacturing and increase hiring. You might find yourself learning even more, which MIGHT have the effect of the questions you asked in helping you understand who wants to eradicate the middle class in favor of the rich getting richer at the expense of the middle class and poor getting poorer.

They may have done it poorly, and certainly they have, but the progressives are the ones who have tried to help lift the poor, increase their education and opportunities, and limit the ability of the rich and powerful, and corporations, to make something of a “slave state” out of us.

One small example: “Privatizing” Social Security (something the GOP has long strived to do) would mean those who can afford retirement live well; those who survive from day to day live poorly (or don’t survive much to old age). It would mean more people having to invest in Wall Street to try and make their money go further into their old age; who benefits from that? It would mean most of the middle class and poorer classes having to work essentially until they are too old or infirm to do so, ergo dying earlier. Most of those working longer would get paid less---Jim is well aware that if he quit his job, he either couldn’t be hired (at 72) or would have to take lower-paying and/or menial job(s). That creates a whole class of people costing less to employ, as well.

It seems to me that you have spent so long parroting things you have heard because they “seem” right and being caught up in movies, etc., which portray a black-and-white picture of the world, that you haven’t been able to see what’s been happening around you in the REAL world. If you are seeing more and hopefully are less affected by your previous views, it would make you a better, more thinking, person, which I believe would be a good thing for you.

We were once members of the middle class. In the past ten years, we have become lower middle class and are even clinging to THAT by our fingernails; we will no doubt slide into lower class as costs to up and salaries fall behind (which they’ve been doing for a long time, while the earning power of the rich grew enormously). There are facts and figures showing how this has been happening to more and more people, and the shelters have been steadily seeing more and more families who once were able to support themselves no longer able to do so. Rather than single homeless, it’s now becoming more and more FAMILIES...which is an eloquent statement on where our country is headed.

I heartily applaud you getting some inkling of what’s going on; I hope you think about it even more, learn about it if you can, and come to the realization that government’s ability to control us has gotten steadily stronger, meaning their power to keep us from limiting them has as well. It might be worthwhile for you to learn more and question more; if you were able to separate yourself from the unreal world and look around you at what is real, that would be a wonderful thing, for you more than for anyone else.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, December 22, 2010 9:07 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"Fasicsm creeps slowly. But yes, you definitely have a point here."

Thanks.

"But none of these things really did. His having a gun did it. If he didn't have a gun, he probably would have become really upset, maybe hit someone, and then have been overpowered by the many wedding guests."

Or, he could have gotten into his car and driven thru the crowd. Picked up a rock. Grabbed a knife. Used a pen.

Fascism begins with a few things.

Let's run down your list.

Quote:

1. Gun/Weapon Control

Thank Republican President Nixon for the most sweeping gun control legislation in history.

Quote:

2. Movement (Travel) Control

Who was in charge of the White House and both houses of Congress when the Department of Homeland Security was created, and the TSA was put under the federal aegis?

Quote:

3. Information Control.

See "Patriot Act", who wrote it, who pushed for it, and who voted for it.

Quote:

4. Tracking of the Population.

Couple of points on that one. 1) Not real sure what you're on about with that; the census is mandated by the Constitution, so, ummmmm... sorry if you hate the Constitution and the founders of America for that one...

2) It was almost 100% right-wingers here - including you yourself - who insisted that Arizona's "Papers Please" law was a GOOD thing, and that every state should insist on the same kind of statute. Really, if walking up to someone - anyone - and demanding to see their papers isn't "tracking of the population", then what is?

Quote:

5. Control of Medical Care (new one)

We already had control of medical care. It was called "insurance". Now if you look at what Jan Brewer is doing in Arizona, you'll see that 100% of the "death panels" have been instituted and are being staffed and run by Republicans and teabaggers.

Quote:

6. Monetary Value Control.

Has there been a time recently where we DIDN'T have control over our monetary system?

Quote:

7. Breakdown/Purposeful destruction of "families"

Look up "triangle trade". See who historically has been running drugs into the inner cities to break up families. Also, who is typically the "law and order" party that insists on running their little "War on (Some) Drugs" and putting people in prison and branding them as convicts so that they can NEVER work their way up the ladder?

Quote:

8. Political Correctness

Conservatives always SAY they're against political correctness, right up until someone named "Obama" makes a wisecrack about putting lipstick on a pig, and they all run around shitting in their panties about how insensitive he is towards Sarah Palin. Not sure why Republicans think Sarah Palin is a pig, but there ya go...

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9. Making the population reliant on the governing body. For food, shelter, heat, etc.

Again, especially when conservatives put so many of that population in prison, making them quite literally dependent upon the government for EVERYTHING.

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10. Government takeover of private business.

Actually, you've got that one backwards. That's not fascism, it's communism. They're basically polar opposites. Under fascism, governments don't take over businesses - businesses take over the government, essentially buying it out on piece at a time. There were lots and lots of private businesses in Nazi Germany - most of them were even given slave laborers by the government. And they didn't even have to pay any minimum wage. Sound familiar?

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11. Fear. Using the "other" as a scapegoat.

Especially if by "other" you mean "Muslims". ;)

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Tell me this has not been going on for the past 20 years. In fact, its been accelerated.

And you have supported it, 100%. You've voted for the people who have done the most absolute harm to this country, and you've voted for them time and time again. And you've committed to voting for them AGAIN at every opportunity.

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Speaking from personal experience here, most of the jewish folks I know vote progressive (or National Socialist as I view them to be)?

That's because you have zero understanding of fascism, or "National Socialism" as you view it to be. Fascism gets portrayed by the right as a left-wing governing practice, but it is at its heart a hardcore right-wing ideology, and has always been embraced by conservatives and corporatists.

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Another question: I believe that many Progressives KNOW that they are trying to set up a 2 part culture. The Haves, and the HaveNots. They believe they will be part of the Haves, and look forward to the day when they are "on top". Are people so blind as to not realize that the Middle Class, the "Almost Haves" are the stalwart protectors of society? The ones who work to be "Haves" while also working to prevent from being the "HaveNots"?

Again, you have it almost 180 degrees backwards. Look who is trying to do away with EVERY government program that would attempt to provide ANY help to the have-nots: the Republicans and the teabaggers. The haves. The people whose slogan is, "I got mine. Fuck you."

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(Before Niki, Kwick, Frem et-all jump on this... especially the "fear part", they should explain or state whether or not they believe we are living (or starting to live) in a fascist state...)

Yes. Your mistake is in thinking that this just started when Obama was elected. Well, that, and the fact that you have no idea what fascism even IS. You keep equating fascism with socialism, when the two couldn't really be much further apart.

This Space For Rent!

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Wednesday, December 22, 2010 9:18 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

.....

Kwick/Niki

And you wonder why Americans are becoming Tea Party members?

Rejection of both political ideologies, in favor of the things that make us who we are? Ring a bell? Bueller?

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Wednesday, December 22, 2010 9:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Can you not see how the things you listed are being done/have been done for a long time now by the RIGHT?

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2. Movement (Travel) Control (the current problems with TSA, which are a response to people’s fears and belief the government/free enterprise/someone else will protect them, if they just give them enough power)

3. Information Control. (Just look OBJECTIVELY at Fox News, which “controls” its audience with misinformation and ideological propaganda more than any other!)

4. Tracking of the Population. (Again, people willing to give up civil rights and privacy in the hope of being “protected”—-who instituted wiretapping of Americans, detention, and so many other things which erode?)

5. Control of Medical Care (new one) (You see “government control”, but don’t realize that as it IS, we have “private enterprise control”, and the right is determined to kill any attempt by the government to give us ANY choice but corporate control of our medical care)

7. Breakdown/Purposeful destruction of "families" (how do you think that’s been created by the “left”?

8. Political Correctness (political correctness---if not taken to extremes---HELPS the population integrate and helps its diverse elements become respected members of society)

9. Making the population reliant on the governing body. For food, shelter, heat, etc. (Right NOW we are reliant on the corporate sector for those things, and their reach is extending further and further. Again, however poorly they have done it, the aim of the progressives is to HELP people be less reliant; as to shelter, I think the banks are pretty much in control of that currently, aren’t they?)

10. Government takeover of private business. (I have yet to see government “take over” private business. Rather I have seen efforts to ENHANCE private business the past few years, by reducing or allowing private enterprise following the guidelines, laws and controls which PROTECT their workers and the economy)

11. Fear. Using the "other" as a scapegoat. (Now THAT is definitely the purvey of the right; who has been stoking up fear and hatred of Muslims, tried to make Obama “the other” as much as possible, and on and on? You think it’s been the LEFT which has created the hatred of all things Muslim? Making people you want to defeat “the other” has long been a tenant of the Republican Party!)

I can’t speak to the other points, as I’m not well versed enough on them, but the majority of the points you list as increasing fascism can be laid at the feet of the right, not the left. Remember: The opposite of socialism is fascism, something never mentioned when people cry “socialist!”.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, December 22, 2010 9:31 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
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Kwick/Niki

And you wonder why Americans are becoming Tea Party members?

Rejection of both political ideologies, in favor of the things that make us who we are? Ring a bell? Bueller?

No, I wonder why tea party members keep supporting the GOP. You never rejected ANYTHING they did, Wulfie. Look at your posts from the last election. You openly embraced everything the GOP did and stood for, and referred to them more than a few times as "us" and "we".

Don't go running to try to hide behind that "independent" label NOW; we've already seen you for who you really are!

The tea party candidates were 100% - every last one of them - Republicans.

What was it they "rejected", exactly?

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Wednesday, December 22, 2010 9:38 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Can you not see how the things you listed are being done/have been done for a long time now by the RIGHT?"

Cute that you left out Gun Control... cus that is ALL "progressive/Nazi"

And I think i said that this has been happenign over the last 20 years...

Thats Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama...

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Wednesday, December 22, 2010 10:38 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"Can you not see how the things you listed are being done/have been done for a long time now by the RIGHT?"

Cute that you left out Gun Control... cus that is ALL "progressive/Nazi"

Cute that you completely ignored my comment about Nixon and gun control...

And cute that you keep referring to progressives as "Nazis" when the facts show that the Nazis were a right-wing organization, supported in the U.S. by the right and OPPOSED by progressives everywhere.

This stance of yours really makes you look more ignorant than you probably are, Wulf.

But alas, you're determined to put people into "-isms", aren't you? You claim to want to reject party ideology, but you have never walked the walk. Do you even know who some of your beloved tea party candidates were? Their backgrounds? Their accomplishments?

Some were right-wing lobbyists who made their fortunes shilling for corporations and screwing over the middle class (who you claim you support). Some were investment swindlers, some made their fortunes off Medicare fraud, and one of them was Bush's budget director - the guy responsible for trillions in deficits, who seems to have come lately to the idea of fiscal responsibility.

And the funny part is, all they have to do is say "I'm with the tea party!" and you'll buy into their pyramid scheme wholeheartedly. You claim to not believe in party ideology, but you believe completely in anyone or anything that says "tea party" on it, no questions asked.

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And I think i said that this has been happenign over the last 20 years...

Thats Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama...

It's been happening for over 200 years. Congrats on finally noticing.

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Wednesday, December 22, 2010 11:34 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Oops, sorry Mike...I was typing when you posted, so I'm duplicative. Onward

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And you wonder why Americans are becoming Tea Party members?

No, I don't wonder, I already know. People are scared and angry--the economical situation in the country today--and desperate for any answer. Obama didn't fix things fast enough for them, so they're reacting emotionally by swinging yet again to the right, which won't be the answer either.

The Tea Party, as Mike said, follows the right almost entirely. Oh, they have some disagreements, but where they do, their thinking is black and white, they're not realizing the political nuances the Republicans do. Aside from that, they're just Republicans. That is easily evidenced by the fact that they didn't EXIST until Obama came along...if they were REALLY for smaller government, they'd have been here by the millions during Bush's term. Where were they?

The Tea Party is a REACTION to what Bush and the Republicans put us through for eight years, and where it landed us.

And no, you say you decry both parties, but you most definitely do not. You use derrogatory terms consistently when referring to the left, yet not when referring to the right. Every time you claim you're for neither party, I can't help snorting...once, when I read it yet again...then ignoring you.

I guess you're not getting anywhere after all; you still see everything through the eyes of "It's the fascist dems to blame". Pity.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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