You want Xmas stuff? Try this on for size (and fun):[quote]1. A Very Merry Un-Birthday? Contrary to popular belief, the Bible doesn't actually mention ..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Ten things you might not know about Christmas

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Friday, December 31, 2010 09:01
SHORT URL:
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Saturday, December 25, 2010 8:21 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


You want Xmas stuff? Try this on for size (and fun):
Quote:

1. A Very Merry Un-Birthday?

Contrary to popular belief, the Bible doesn't actually mention a specific date for Jesus' birth. In fact, most historians believe he was probably born in the spring, hence the Bible's description of shepherds herding animals. But in the 4th century, when the Catholic Church decided to recognize Jesus' birth as an official holiday, Pope Julius I chose December 25 for the Feast of the Nativity. That the date happened to coincide with the pagan festival known as Saturnalia must have been pure coincidence.

2. The War on Christmas


Five months into the first World War, troops along the Western front took a Christmas Eve break from fighting to sing carols to one another across the battlefield. The following morning, German soldiers emerged from the trenches and began to approach Allied troops while calling out "Merry Christmas" in English. Luckily, it wasn't a trick; dozens of British fighters came out to greet them and shake hands, some even exchanging cigarettes as gifts. Later dubbed the Christmas Truce of 1914, it was one of the last examples of wartime chivalry.

3. Christmas in the Colonies


From 1659 to 1681, showcasing one's holiday spirit in Boston could cost you a fine of as much as five shillings. That's right — Christmas used to be illegal. It's somewhat surprising, then, that the same puritanical minds also created the first American batch of eggnog at Captain John Smith's 1607 Jamestown settlement. (The word nog comes from the word grog; that is, any drink made with rum.) Christmas was so inconsequential in early America that after the Revolutionary War, Congress didn't even bother taking the day off to celebrate the holiday, deciding instead to hold its first session on Christmas Day, 1789. It took almost a century for Congress to proclaim it a federal holiday.

4. Xmas Lit 101


The author best known for creating the Headless Horseman also created the iconic image of Santa flying in a sleigh. In his 1819 series of short stories The Sketch Book of Geoffrey Crayon, New York native Washington Irving described a dream in which St. Nicholas soared across the sky in a weightless wagon. The stories became so popular, they spawned a Christmas revival of sorts in the States, and even Charles Dickens is said to have credited Irving's work for inspiring his classic holiday tale A Christmas Carol.

5. What Advertising Hath Wrought


Like the Energizer Bunny, Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer got his start as an advertising gimmick. A copywriter named Robert L. May first created the merry misfit in 1939 to lure shoppers into the Montgomery Ward department store. Frosty the Snowman and his famous corncob pipe couldn't escape the clutches of the advertising industry either; a whiskeymaker in 1890 used Frosty's likeness to showcase an entirely different kind of holiday cheer. Once Prohibition ended, the chain-smoking snowman quickly became the go-to guy for alcohol ads, appearing in posters for Miller beer, Jack Daniel's, Ballantine ale, Rheingold beer, Schlitz beer, Schenley, Oretel's lager beer, Chivas Regal scotch, Fort Pitt pale ale, Mount Whitney beer and Four Roses.

6. NASA's Christmas Sighting


In 1965 two astronauts on their way back to orbit spotted something in space they couldn't identify. Frantic, they radioed Mission Control. After several minutes of tense silence, engineers at Cape Canaveral began hearing the faint jingle of sleigh bells followed by a harmonica rendition of "Jingle Bells" ... played by none other than the two "frantic" astronauts. The men later donated the harmonica and bells to the National Museum of Space & Aeronautics in Washington, where they now sit on display.

7. Kiss Me, I'm Celtic


According to Celtic and Teutonic legend, mistletoe is magical — it can heal wounds, increase fertility, bring good luck and ward off evil spirits. The tradition of kissing under the mistletoe didn't begin until the Victorian era, a surprising origin given the stuffy and sexually repressive behavior of the time. Actually, it's not very surprising at all.

8. O Tannenbaum


Even before the arrival of Christianity, Germans decorated evergreen trees to brighten the dark, gloomy days of the winter solstice. The first "Christmas trees" appeared in Strasbourg in the 17th century and spread to Pennsylvania in the 1820s with the arrival of German immigrants. When Queen Victoria married Germany's Prince Albert in 1840, he brought the tradition to England. Eight years later, the first American newspaper ran a picture of the royal Christmas tree, and Americans outside Pennsylvania quickly followed suit.

9. Away in a Manger


Since the Great Depression, the Rockettes have shared Radio City Music Hall with live farm animals — from camels to donkeys to sheep — to stage a live nativity scene for its annual "Christmas Spectacular." But the world saw its first living nativity in 1224, when St. Francis of Assisi re-created the birth of Jesus to explain the holiday to his followers. During that first display, the manger was also used as an altar for Christmas Mass.

10. Feliz Navidad Around the World


Christmas traditions vary from culture to culture. Finns often visit saunas on Christmas Eve, while Portuguese revelers hold a feast on Christmas Day for the living and the dead (extra places are set for the souls of the deceased). In Greece, some believe that goblins called kallikantzeri run wild during the 12 days of Christmas, and most Greeks don't exchange presents until Jan. 1, St. Basil's Day. Thanks to their geographic location, most Australians and New Zealanders enjoy Christmas on the beach or at barbecues. Spain, meanwhile, hosts the world's largest lottery.

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/completelist/0,29569,186850
6,00.html



Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off





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Saturday, December 25, 2010 8:23 AM

WHOZIT


Hum Bug

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Saturday, December 25, 2010 10:47 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Five months into the first World War, troops along the Western front took a Christmas Eve break from fighting to sing carols to one another across the battlefield. The following morning, German soldiers emerged from the trenches and began to approach Allied troops while calling out "Merry Christmas" in English. Luckily, it wasn't a trick; dozens of British fighters came out to greet them and shake hands, some even exchanging cigarettes as gifts. Later dubbed the Christmas Truce of 1914, it was one of the last examples of wartime chivalry.


There is an excellent song about this called "Christmas in the Trenches" by folk singer John McCutcheon.


I've actually thought that I should recommend him to you before now, particularly a song of his called "Let's Keep it Straight" during the DADT discussion; I think you'd appreciate a lot of his music.


I do not need the written code of a spiritual belief to act like a decent human being

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Saturday, December 25, 2010 2:49 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

In my family, the traditional celebration was on Christmas Eve, called 'The Good Night' in Spanish. It was in celebration of the Three Wizard Kings (presumably originally some kind of Zaroaster religious title) who brought gifts to baby Jesus to celebrate the arrival of a great King into the world.

We traded gifts on The Good Night, and roasted a pig over a flame, taking turns on the crank to rotate the beast and cook it evenly. The appetizers during these festivities were candied bars made of nuts. The pig itself was always served with fried Yucca, Congri (sometimes called Moro, a dish of rice and black beans cooked together with bits of pork or chorizo for flavor,) and plantains both sweet and soft (platanos maduros) and crispy and salty (tostones.)

Instead of gifts from 'Santa' our phantasmal gift-giver was the 'Tres Reyes Magos', the aforementioned Biblical gift-givers who were probably priests of Zaroaster, which paid special heed to astrology and would have interpreted the unusual star as an omen of critical import.

I've often found the connection between Jesus and the Zaroastrian religion to be interesting.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Saturday, December 25, 2010 3:10 PM

KANEMAN


It really is amazing that so many different countries have added to Christmas making it what we have today. Pretty cool. I did not know the Germans did the ornaments.

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Sunday, December 26, 2010 9:07 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

From 1659 to 1681, showcasing one's holiday spirit in Boston could cost you a fine of as much as five shillings. That's right — Christmas used to be illegal.... Christmas was so inconsequential in early America that after the Revolutionary War, Congress didn't even bother taking the day off to celebrate the holiday, deciding instead to hold its first session on Christmas Day, 1789. It took almost a century for Congress to proclaim it a federal holiday.
Just in case you missed it, Kane old man, there goes your argument about the government making it a holiday. Those of you who want to return to the “original” state of America, government included, would have to give up Yuletide if we actually did. Just say’in.

Rose, I'll have to check him out. I love folk. Thanx!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
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Sunday, December 26, 2010 9:15 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Had heard pretty much all of those before.

There's lots more, of course, concerning Saturnalia and Mithra, but you get the idea.

In our times, Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus. Even if he was likely born in Sept. or sometime in the spring.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, December 26, 2010 9:42 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Actually, no; in our times, Christmas is for racing around madly (and often grumpily) to buy gifts for people you don't really want to buy gifts for or can't afford to buy gifts for; for businesses to pump that you HAVE to buy those gifts and trees and decorations that they make a profit off of; buying gifts for people who usually don't actually need or want what you give them (except children), going into debt/using credit cards, getting stuffed on the meals WOMEN cook, and, for some, getting drunk.

It's only a relatively few people, in my experience, who view the day as one to go to mass and think about Christ.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
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Sunday, December 26, 2010 9:49 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



What ever motivates you, I guess.

I didn't attend service, as I generally don't.

Been there, done that, heard the fairy tale. Use to believe it, but now I know better.

Yeah. Did enjoy a lot of great food , prepared by WOMEN.

Still, participating in a annual celebration is sorta fun.

And it snowed on Christmas day. 1st time here in over 130 years.

I guess global warming took a holiday too.






" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, December 26, 2010 10:08 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

And it snowed on Christmas day. 1st time here in over 130 years.
Oh, gawd, I LOVE it! You just made the perfect argument FOR global warming too (see post on England's snow storms). FanTAStic, thank you!

Glad you had a good one, agree fully that celebrations are a good thing for almost everyone (we all need a break mentally, and for many, gathering together is a great thing too), and I'm glad you got snow...that really makes Yuletide especially neat and feel right. I'm happy for you and yours.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
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Sunday, December 26, 2010 10:17 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


on the international topic, apparrently the Swedes have an absolute thing for Donald Duck--

http://www.slate.com/id/2239252/

a modern tradition there.

Myself, I love Christmas Eve candlelight service. Nothing like being in a dark church , singing Silent Night and spreading the flame and light from hand to hand, then taking it out the doors to the world, without speaking. Might make you believe in, and want to share, some of the better things Christianity is supposed to teach-- brotherhood, peace, kindness to others, stuff like that.

"God bless us, Browncoats all, every one."

Dona nobis pacem.

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Sunday, December 26, 2010 11:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


YES, NewOld, that's exactly what I mean about the REAL Xmas. In ways I envy you guys, I freely admit it; it would be nice to have faith in something outside myself, especially at some times.

Either way, tho', I would find what you described very moving and would love to experience something like that. The only churches I went into were the ancient ones in Europe, where I felt that being a tourist, so wanting to see them, was my excuse. The FAITH itself even touched me when we visited cathedrals in Europe...don't think it was just the sense of antiquity, it FELT hushed and special. Faith is a wonderful, wonderful thing, my problem with it is how it gets prostituted. But you real guys, I hold you in the highest esteem, I really do.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
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Sunday, December 26, 2010 11:46 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


The Buddhist bonfire thing sounds like great fun. I've done the transfer of candlelight thing at a Pagan Yuletide celebration. It was very nice, if ultimately not for me. I didn't get a lot out of the faith thing. It sort of worked for some things, but the biggest questions of my life have been answered by chemistry, not theology.
The core tenant of most religions has something to do with kindness or brotherhood or what have you. I've never had a problem with that particular teaching, it's just the extraneous details that can get all snarled and problematic.
That got a little tangential. Sorry about that. Sort of started thinking through my keyboard.


I do not need the written code of a spiritual belief to act like a decent human being

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Sunday, December 26, 2010 11:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Please do think through your keyboard; I love it. Yes, almost all faiths have the same basic tenant, which is interesting considering how intolerant they all are of each other! "Snarled and problematic" works for me too, but far more than that, it's the patriarchal control of almost all organized religions that I abhor...and the abuse of power.

And before anyone snarks or asks, yes, we buddhists have female monks.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
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Sunday, December 26, 2010 12:44 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Oh, gawd, I LOVE it! You just made the perfect argument FOR global warming too (see post on England's snow storms). FanTAStic, thank you!

Glad you had a good one, agree fully that celebrations are a good thing for almost everyone (we all need a break mentally, and for many, gathering together is a great thing too), and I'm glad you got snow...that really makes Yuletide especially neat and feel right. I'm happy for you and yours.





So,cooling global temps and snow in places which normally don't GET snow is a proof FOR global warming ?

Wow. Cue the crazy emoticon.


Snowfalls are now just a thing of the past

By Charles Onians
Monday, 20 March 2000

Britain's winter ends tomorrow with further indications of a striking environmental change: snow is starting to disappear from our lives.

Sledges, snowmen, snowballs and the excitement of waking to find that the stuff has settled outside are all a rapidly diminishing part of Britain's culture, as warmer winters - which scientists are attributing to global climate change - produce not only fewer white Christmases, but fewer white Januaries and Februaries.

The first two months of 2000 were virtually free of significant snowfall in much of lowland Britain, and December brought only moderate snowfall in the South-east. It is the continuation of a trend that has been increasingly visible in the past 15 years: in the south of England, for instance, from 1970 to 1995 snow and sleet fell for an average of 3.7 days, while from 1988 to 1995 the average was 0.7 days. London's last substantial snowfall was in February 1991.

Global warming, the heating of the atmosphere by increased amounts of industrial gases, is now accepted as a reality by the international community. Average temperatures in Britain were nearly 0.6°C higher in the Nineties than in 1960-90, and it is estimated that they will increase by 0.2C every decade over the coming century. Eight of the 10 hottest years on record occurred in the Nineties.






" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, December 27, 2010 7:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Extreme weather of any kind in unusual places, especially where it normally doesn't happen (like this year and last year's freezes in our South which killed native species) can be as much an indication of global warming as can unusual extreme heat. I see you have no desire to read what I've offered, so I'll leave it at that.

Your quote is from 2000, and can serve to prove global warming as easily as disprove it, given eight of the 10 hottest years on record occurred in the Nineties. That's called extreme weather shifts, which is one of the effects predicted as possibly caused by global warming. The concept isn't extreme weather over a couple of years in any one place, it's extremely DIFFERENT weather in a few short years, especially in places where it isn't common, like the tropics being hit with record cold, OR Colorado experiencing it's current heat wave. Britain was used to snow: they got none; now they're getting far more than normal. We had a drought a few years back lasting a couple of years; this year we got hit with record-breaking rains.

I'm not claiming any are definitive indications of global warming, but your and others' claims that extreme weather of a cold nature can serve to "prove" global warming as much as heat. It merely shows your ignorance that the effects of potential global warming is either nescience or deliberate denial as a cause to snark.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
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Wednesday, December 29, 2010 7:25 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Hey Niki, shiny post! I've always found traditions fascinating, 'specially how the same one can differ from place to place.

I went to my girlfriend's church and heard an interesting explanation of the Christmas Star and the Magi from a scientist (astrophysists I think). I wish I could remember everythig he said, it was fascinating and definitely not the typical church sermon. The basic summary is that Jupiter, the Moon or Venus, and a star (regulus I think) were in such a position as to appear 'new' and the moved back in forth in the sky in a way that lead them to that fateful manger. The timeline of these events (least from the astronomy portion) has been proven which would place Jesus's birth around September making Dec 25 likely conception.

Far as rampant commercialism goes, it may make the prelude to the holidays more stressful, but it doesn't touch Christmas day. That day is still about peace, love, friends, family and good will towards men.

Global Warming IMO is psuedo half assed pop science
bullshit. Climate change however, has existed long as the earth has and our influence on it is is still unclear. I'm with DreamTrove on that arguement. Carbons are not the problem, deforestation and destruction of the Earth's mechanisms for dealing with those carbons is.

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Wednesday, December 29, 2010 6:57 PM

DREAMTROVE


this is a great thread because it makes me feel really informed ;)

i even kew about the mccutcheon song which i have, tho iv known the story since i was a kid. and yes, many other things missing from this.list. knew about this years snow in ga too. ;)



anthony

thats because jesus was born and raised a nazarene. they had been conquered and heavily influences by persia some centuries earlier.

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Wednesday, December 29, 2010 7:24 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Listen to the global...err..climate changelings.

They'll say look for no more snows in London at Christmas, as a true sign that man is affecting the weather.


Until it snows, and then they'll say " See? Just as we predicted !"






" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, December 29, 2010 7:47 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

2. The War on Christmas


Five months into the first World War, troops along the Western front took a Christmas Eve break from fighting to sing carols to one another across the battlefield. The following morning, German soldiers emerged from the trenches and began to approach Allied troops while calling out "Merry Christmas" in English. Luckily, it wasn't a trick; dozens of British fighters came out to greet them and shake hands, some even exchanging cigarettes as gifts. Later dubbed the Christmas Truce of 1914, it was one of the last examples of wartime chivalry.




http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0424205/ Very sad, very wonderful film about the above.

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Thursday, December 30, 2010 8:39 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Thanx, Magons! I just put it in my que at Netflix; I know it'll be Hollywoodized beyond recognition, but will be neat to see anyway.

You're most welcome, Happy; I try to find stuff that might interest people, and understandably most of it is stuff that interests ME, so I found these ten things illuminating; some I knew, some I didn't.

Commercialism, etc., may not touch the day itself for YOU, but for an awful lot of us it did. My mom was one of those who "kept track" and would bitch and moan behind people's backs if their gifts to her weren't equal to hers, or "up to snuff" or whatever. Xmas for us was the family getting together, some who disliked one another avoiding the other or getting into verbal scraps, the men mostly sitting in front of the TV while the women cooked, set table, etc., then eating and going their separate ways. Mom always got "exhausted" by cooking and griped about it, made herself martyr and invariably caused some kind of scene that made her the center of attention and the rest of the day uncomfortable for all.

I always snuk out as soon as I could and ran to Paula's house, which was a delightfully hectic time of family who actually liked one another, hanging around the kitchen with her grandmother cooking, lots of laughter and warmth. I only returned when it was time to eat at home 'cuz I knew I'd catch hell if I didn't.

So I know it can be both ways, but which families experience the "good" day and what percentage of them there are I don't know. I also know for those with mental challenges it can be horrific; I've known some who take to their beds the day before and for days afterwards because it's so traumatic to face their families (sometimes because of sexual or physical abuse), some got manic or into bad states until it was over, etc. Many, if not most, of us with mental illness are made the "goat" of the family, so gatherings of same can be pretty bad.

I'm happy for those like you for whom the day is a good thing, whatever precedes it, but I don't kid myself that it's that way for all (or even most?) of us. Xmas is, for me, mostly for the very young to enjoy...and of course, that's wrapped around commercialism, too.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
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Thursday, December 30, 2010 3:20 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Now that you mention it, there is a fair amount of stress invloved with the families as well. I never really think about it, the good memories tend to stick better, but I suppose anything is what you make of it. I certainly don't like discussing degree's and jobs (or lack there off) and am a little guilty of creatively describing what I do and how it benefits the community while dodging details of how much it pays and how often... While the Physician's assistant, Pilot, pharmacist, and journalists discuss their stuff, lol, but at least I'm one of the younger ones who have graduated, so it ain't so bad (or so I tell myself). I still don't get why folks stress out about it, but I do what I can to lighten the mood. It's too easy to lose sight of what's really important.

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Thursday, December 30, 2010 3:57 PM

DMAANLILEILTT


To those I would add two things about the actual birth of the Christ:

1. Mary wasn't a virgin when Jesus was born. Her mother was a virgin when she was concieved. It even says so in the Bible, St. Paul says that Jesus was "born of the seed of David" which would've come from Joseph.

2. Jesus wasn't neccessarily born in a stable; it's never mentioned in the New Testament. It just says that he was "laid in a manger". The stable and animals were added by St. Francis of Assisi.

"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"

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Thursday, December 30, 2010 4:07 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by dmaanlileiltt:
To those I would add two things about the actual birth of the Christ:

1. Mary wasn't a virgin when Jesus was born. Her mother was a virgin when she was concieved. It even says so in the Bible, St. Paul says that Jesus was "born of the seed of David" which would've come from Joseph.



MARY was the one born of a virgin mother ?

Someone had better inform the Catholic Church about that one.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, December 30, 2010 5:50 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by dmaanlileiltt:
To those I would add two things about the actual birth of the Christ:

1. Mary wasn't a virgin when Jesus was born. Her mother was a virgin when she was concieved. It even says so in the Bible, St. Paul says that Jesus was "born of the seed of David" which would've come from Joseph.


"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"



Except for the bits of the fairy tale that say she was. Luke and Matthew both refer to the virginity of Mary

Quote:

Matthew

The Gospel of Matthew (c 80-85) begins with a genealogy leading from Abraham to Joseph, but then calls Joseph "the husband of Mary, of whom (Mary) was born Jesus, who is called Christ."[1:16] The original Greek text, which has "ἐξ ἧς" (feminine singular), shows that the phrase "of whom" refers to Mary, not to Joseph or to Mary and Joseph together.[1:16] It then states that, when Mary was found to be pregnant, she had not lived with Joseph, to whom she was engaged,[1:18] and that he did not have marital relations with her before the child was born.[1:25] It declares: "That which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit",[1:20] in fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14, which Matthew refers to as: "A virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."[Mt. 1:22-23] On the actual text of Isaiah, see the Old Testament section below.

The Gospel of Matthew presents the virgin birth of Jesus as fulfilling a prophecy in Isaiah 7:14, which Matthew adapts to his purpose.[11]

Hebrew has a specific word, betulah, for a virgin, and a more general word, `almah, for a young woman. Since `almah is the word used in the Hebrew text of Isaiah, some commentators have believed it at least possible that Isaiah had in mind only a normal conception by a young mother and that Matthew applied this text of Scripture to the birth of the one he believed to be Messiah, as John seems to have applied to his death another text of Scripture that in its original context referred to the Passover lamb.[12] Others believe that Isaiah was directly prophesying the future virgin birth of the Messiah.

The author of Matthew may have recounted the virgin birth story to answer contemporary Jewish slanders about Jesus' origin.[13]

Scholars of the Early Church referred to a Gospel of the Hebrews as the true Gospel of Matthew, or Matthaei Authenticum. This gospel was written in Aramaic using Hebrew letters, and omits the virgin birth account.[14]

Miraculous but not virginal births appear in Jesus' own Hebrew tradition, as well as in other traditions. Hindu and Zoroastrian accounts of virgin births still involve male seed, while Christian and Muslim accounts of Jesus' virgin birth do not.

Like Matthew, Luke (c 85-90) includes infancy narratives and a genealogy. In Luke 1:30-35 Mary asks how she is to conceive and bear a son, since she is a virgin; and she is told it will happen by the power of God. Luke 3:23-38 gives a genealogy, different from that given by Matthew. Scholars differ on which of the two, Matthew or Luke, is the legal genealogy via Joseph, and which the physical descent via Mary.[15]

When the angel Gabriel tells Mary that she will bear a son conceived by the Holy Spirit,[Lk. 1:26-38] she responds with the Magnificat,[Lk. 1:46-55] a prayer of joy, probably from an early Christian liturgy.[13] The Magnificat is one of several formal set pieces the author incorporates into the gospel


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Thursday, December 30, 2010 5:54 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Thanx, Magons! I just put it in my que at Netflix; I know it'll be Hollywoodized beyond recognition, but will be neat to see anyway.



you're in luck, niki, it's a european film and not at all hollywoodised.

It has been depicted in other films as well, including 'Oh What a Lovely War' which is where I first heard of it.

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Thursday, December 30, 2010 6:12 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


More about the origins of the christmas tree

“Duality is at the heart of mythology and the basic structure of myth” (Strauss, 1968). In the beginning there was duality, a central theme throughout Mythology, in this there is the birth of chaos and order, the creation myth. And in the beginning if there was darkness/void (Chaos), there was a need for light and order. Duality lies in the greatest stories ever told; the battle of good vs. evil, the romantic love and hate, heaven and hell, nature’s sky and earth, fire and water, mind and matter etc. Another central theme of duality in mythology is of twins. My focus is of the two trees of mythology, The Tree of Life (World Tree) and The Tree of Knowledge (Good & Evil).

“No one remembers the trees”, (Witt, 2009 English 280) but I do, I spent a lot of my childhood reading under Belle Isle Willow Trees and a lot of spare time taking pictures of all kinds of trees, somewhere along the way I picked up the idea of trees having souls, were probably once humans maybe even ancestors and having stories and powers and knowledge, if only they could talk, I remember the trees and too are they remembered in mythology. The trees in mythology have prominent roles and are symbols of opposition (duality), and of wisdom, the source of life and a ladder between worlds.

I first heard of the trees from the near eastern stories, the Garden of Eden, in Genesis of the bible, but it is in Norse Mythology of the World Tree called Yggdrasill where my imagination really comes to life. I believe it is in this myth, where the tree of life and the tree of knowledge is one in the same. In Norse Mythology, Yggdrasill created the first human named Ask (Ash) and also in Norse creation story, the earth was also created and the tree acted as an axis connecting the three realms; earth with the heavens and with hell, also connecting the nine worlds. In short it created life and shields the knowledge of good and evil.

The myth is of an immense Ash Tree (World Tree), being formed from the death of a God who of which was created when fire and ice met, and his name was Ymir. Ymir was killed by his grandson or great-grand son name Odin who created the world and World Tree from Ymir dead body. Odin used Ymir’s blood to create the sea, his flesh for the earth, his skull for the sky, his bones the mountain, his hair the trees. The branches of this tree, the tree of life covered the world and supported the universe, the roots go deep down into the underworld and beneath is a spring, the source of wisdom (knowledge of good and evil), it’s trunk above the ground, and it’s branches stretching toward the heavens. The tree worked as an axis through the earth and the realms above and below it. It nourished the Gods, humans and animals connecting all living things and all phases of existence, thus connecting all nine worlds of the Norse cosmology, and is extremely relevant to the cosmos. In this myth the earth is represented as a circle of land surrounded by water and in the center is the massive Ash Tree (World Tree).(4).

....

In Norse mythology they made human sacrifice by hangings in trees,* again the source of life and death. Odin was also God of magic, inspiration, battle and the dead.
.....

In Norse mythology the tree, the World Tree created life yet did not possess the power to sustain it, it is the fate of all to face the Norns, yet held the power of the “Golden Ratio” life’s transition. Within the Tree’s shielding roots, the spring of knowledge the source of good and evil a great representation of the two trees in mythology.
http://www.authorsden.com/categories/article_top.asp?catid=62&id=51296

The first christmas decorations were sacrifices, often of animals, but also of people.....

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Thursday, December 30, 2010 7:34 PM

DMAANLILEILTT


From Paul's Epistle to the Romans: "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh and was declared to be Son of God with power according to the spirit of holiness by resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord …"

"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"

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Thursday, December 30, 2010 8:12 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Perhaps Mary was the descendant


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Friday, December 31, 2010 9:01 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Can't speak to virginity of Mary, etc., but that stuff about the trees is interesting.

And Jesus was definitely NOT born in a stable. Stables weren't very common then anyway, and he was born supposedly either in or outside a "caravansary". That's one of the few things I know, 'cuz I researched it for a purpose.

My mom always did the traditional stable thing on the mantle, with a background of fir-tree branches. I KNEW that was wrong, given the terrain is somewhat similar to Afghanistan's, and got the idea of doing my own "historically-accurate nativity". So I read up on it--not the Bible, which is the tale told by people with an ideology, but historical records.

At the time and in that area the most common lodging outside of a city was a caravansary, a mud-and-brick structure surrounded by a "compound wall" to keep people, their wares/belongings, and their animals safe as they passed through. It was used by travelers and provided individual rooms as well as water for people and animals, but had no such thing as a "stable" within it, the animals were just kept within the walls. Historical scholars believe Joseph and Mary went to one, and many believe there was no room (as some songs and religious stories indicate), so Jesus was actually born in a CAVE near the caravansary.

I built my own caravansary, brick by brick, and had it fired, then built historically-accurate scene out of it, complete with cave for the nativity. Ended up making four or five of them for friends who wanted same, but only the one actual building, as it took forever and had to be fired, etc.

They're still around. Modern ones are used as hotels, and some hotels have been built to resemble one and CALLED a caravansary, such as this one, The Caravanserai Hotel in Shaki, Azerbaijan


This comes closest to what I modeled, as I wanted to make it a more "upscale" scene:



But the really old or simpler ones sometimes only provided "stalls" for guests:



There are tons and tons of ruins of caravansaries in the Middle East, some tourist attractions, some, like below, ruins which the local residents make use of for their own purposes:



That one, because it's been neglected, is being used by a local for his domestic animal hut etc. without permission, as you can see:



Below is a distance view of one still in use which shows how the compound walls surrounded them; as you can see if you click on it, they were kind of man-made "oasises" in the middle of vast empty lands, which made them very useful for travelers. It won't come up as other than a link:

http://www.kuficpedia.com/index.php?view=image&format=raw&type=img&id=
578&lang=en


To call them "inns" is a pretty expansive definition, obviously, but it's what they were used as, out in the desert.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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