We're all naturally stoned! by Niki2

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

We're all naturally stoned!

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Friday, January 21, 2011 13:48
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Monday, January 17, 2011 7:31 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Just joking, of course. But not completely, as it turns out. While flipping channels last night, I happened across a documentary on marijuana. Much to my surprise, I learned that we’ve all got our own “marijuana” in our brains, which our bodies make naturally! I found that fascinating.

Quote:
What is the Endocannabinoid system (ECS)? And why is it linked to emotion?
The ECS is comprised of two receptors, the CB1 and CB2 receptor. The CB1 receptor is perhaps one of the most abundant receptors in the human brain. It is found in high amounts in many areas of the human brain, including parts of the brain important for emotion. It is fairly common knowledge that THC, from the cannabis plant, can activate CB1 receptors. However, humans and many other animals also make a œnatural THC called Anandamide. Anandamide is synthesized by cells in our body, and can impact a variety of natural processes such as eating, sleeping, memory, energy, and mood.

http://cannabination.com/2010/02/06/cannabinoid-receptors-a-link-betwe
en-genetic-variations-and-depression/

Notice that this substance affects exactly the same processes as marijuana does: eating, sleeping, memory, energy and mood. Which both explains why we are drawn to the drug and begs the question of why it’s classified as a Level One drug (yes, I do know “why”) and why it’s so feared.

There are of course arguments on the other side, the first being why add something our system already has, and knows what quantities are right for us. Second, it also says that, by providing non-natural THC, that substance can also INHIBIT the natural cannabinoids. They did a “study” wherein people who were physically addicted to dope went off it and suffered withdrawal symptoms, thus proving it’s addictive. My argument with that is that a) these were people who smoked a LOT of dope, like numerous times daily, and when the body gets ANYTHING in such quantity, withdrawals are sure to ensue when it’s stopped, and b) these were SMOKERS of dope, and dope has the same addictive qualities as cigarettes, tho’ in much smaller quantities, so of course they’d suffer the effects of withdrawal from nicotine. As far as I know, marijuana has never been found to be physically addictive in serious research, only psychologically addictive. It certainly has never been for me; while I have absolutely NO luck quitting smoking, I haven’t gotten stoned for a year or so because I can’t afford the $150 “tax” the state put on legal marijuana, and I’ve never suffered anything for being without it. On the other hand, anything that helps humans feel good and escape reality can become psychologically addictive, logically, if they come to depend on it.

It does explain why marijuana is so useful in alleviating a number of types of suffering; given chemo kills the good stuff with the bad, it’s been very helpful in stimulating appetite, it’s been found to be effective in the treatment of unipolarity (depression) and bipolarity. I can get it legally because of my bipolarity.

Quote:
A growing body of scientific research suggests that cannabinoid receptors or the endocannabinoid system may have a therapeutic role in major depression (MD) and/or bipolar disorder (BD).

It’s also been helpful to people who have difficulty sleeping, whether through anxiety, pain, or other causes. Ergo, it’s not surprising that if our body creates these chemicals and receptors naturally, anything that alters our ability to do so would be helped by introducing canabanoids.

There’s also the question of dope inhibiting natural production of cannabinoid and effecting the cannabinoid receptors; supposedly when one uses it in quantity over time, the body stops making its own, which can be a difficulty.

I just found this interesting, and thought it might spark some discussion. Or not.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, January 17, 2011 8:20 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Actually, this holds true for a lot of drugs. Most of them simulate something that we make ourselves, or bind perfectly to receptors for things we make ourselves. Most people, it seems, form addictions when they are too low or too high in certain neurochemicals. I've just started studying this sort of thing, actually. I'd really like to be a researcher on the brain and its chemistry.

Anyway, as an example, I have tested as having very high levels of a neurotransmitter called gamma-aminobutyric acid, or GABA. It's the most inhibitory chemical we produce, and is basically our brain's tranquilizer. Its production is stimulated by alcohol, which is why alcohol both lowers inhibitions and makes you sleepy. I have never been a drinker. I've never had more than a shot glass worth of anything alcoholic. It just doesn't appeal to me. Possibly, this is because I'm not craving its effects, because more GABA would quickly turn into way too much.

As another example, my levels of dopamine also tested very high. It's even likely that my brain upped the production of the inhibitor to balance that out, but that's not known for sure. Anyway, dopamine receptors are filled perfectly by nicotine; and actually many drugs work on the dopamine system. I've never been drawn to such things.

On the other hand, my norepinephrine and serotonin levels tested as low. My drugs of choice have always been caffeine and chocolate. Caffeine stimulates the production of all forms of adrenaline, including norepinephrine. Chocolate (along with a few other things I enjoy, such as red meat and tea) contains theobromine and tryptophan, which are chemical precursors to the production of serotonin.

When I found these things out, it was much easier to take more rational steps to control my own chemistry. I get as many nutrients as I can to support the work my body needs to do to keep itself balanced. Instead of eating too much chocolate, I can take concentrated forms of tryptophan or its metabolites (I take something called 5-htp, which tryptophan breaks down into) and up my serotonin production that way. It works particularly well for me because that particular compound also seems to lower dopamine. For people with normal or low dopamine, though, it would be the wrong choice.

Anyway, I think most people are just constantly trying to self-medicate with a variety of things from food to cigarettes to marijuana to cocaine. I hypothesize that most addictions are caused by an imbalance in our own system. Proper nutrition can do a lot to keep it from spiraling out of control, and as foods get more and more refined and created in labs, with their nutrients killed off, stripped away, or just never existing, I think a lot of people are encountering imbalance. Being sedentary also doesn't help our lot. There are chemicals our body will only produce if we move it. I would advise everyone in the world to get a chemistry panel done and talk to an endocrinologist to see if there are healthy steps that can be taken. I know that it might not work for everyone on the same level it worked for me, but it changed my life and gave me a whole new direction, so I'm kind of into it.

I do not need the written code of a spiritual belief to act like a decent human being.

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Monday, January 17, 2011 9:40 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Fascinating...yes, the brain has always fascinated me, too. It's so complex, and the more I learned about my bipolarity, the more intriguing it became. Like the bood/brain barrier, which explained why so many people have such awful side effects from bipolar meds...

On the other hand; doing healthy things? Bah, where's the fun in that!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, January 17, 2011 10:04 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Well I'm having far more fun...

I do not need the written code of a spiritual belief to act like a decent human being.

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Monday, January 17, 2011 10:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Hey, if it works for you, that's fantastic. Wouldn't for me, that's all.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, January 18, 2011 7:24 AM

DREAMTROVE

PR

Yas you undoubtedly already know, I study the brain, and know a ton about this stuff. My own brain is GABA low, and always has been, a common side effect of a chain smoking pregnancy.

So first, lucky you.

Second, be careful. As you pointed out, some things can cause imbalance, and much more serious problems, particularly when you get into cocaine, but even normal legal dopa boosts are to be used with extreme caution. I'm guessing you knew this, but I'll say it anyway. I use a dopa precursor because I have low dopamine, but I notice that if I leave it open, it's full of dead insects. That's a Canary warning I take very seriously. Still, a precursor is a better solution than anything else I've seen yet. In food form it's undoubtedly safer.

Third, a warning about 5-htp, which is an excellent anti depressant because it's the direct precursor to serotonin. The warning is don't take it if a) you don't feel depressed* or b) you cannot feel the happy happy effect of having just taken it. Long term use of relatively high doses cause amnesia due to an insensitivity of the 5ht1a memory receptor. Receptor loss is commonly associated with the trigger being too common in the brain (this is why heroin addicts are wrecks: endorphin receptor loss wreaks havoc on the system and makes you miserable.)

* what I notice more than emotional depression is a strange sticky feeling of being unclean, like I should wash my hands or something, with no real visual or olfactory confirmation. I've identified this as being definitely symptomatic of low serotonin level. Insomnia is also a symptom.

Fourth, Use of GABA boosters would lower your GABA so staying away from them is good. High GABA is great for meditation. If you don't already, I recommend it. You could potentially get a lot of benefit from it, more than the rest of us, maybe more than drugs.

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Tuesday, January 18, 2011 7:39 AM

DREAMTROVE

This article is not saying what you think it is, or the underlying science isn't. Often the stoners of the establishment will come up with something like this, and it's misleading.

The key concept here is analogues. Analogues look to receptors like the right neurotransmitter, but they typically do not have the right shape, and are not recognized by uptake mechanisms, which pull NTs off of receptors so the receptor can be reused, and the NT can be fed back to the reuptake channel.

The result of this effect is receptor loss. Receptor loss is permanent, but your body does pull old receptors and add new ones, but it can take a long time. Decades even. The "year on/year off" rule is pretty on target. If you toke up for five years, it will take five years off the stuff to return to normal.

I believe the specific event here is anandamide receptor loss, and the result is poor memory recall and overall slowing of general cognitive function. It's not true that stoners are "dumber" than the overall population, but as a stoner friend of mine put it "I'm slow on the uptake, literally." yes, that's exactly what happens, uptake is slowed. He is slow on the uptake, though he was quick on the uptake on that point. It means that his brain is capable of the same calculations as any other brain, but that they will happen at a slower cognitive rate.

There is no question that this results in radical IQ loss, and saying so will get you shot in our society, which is why this society is utterly doomed in it's competition with Asia.

Now sure, to apply this non-scientifically I know stoners with IQs of say, 120 or 150, but often they were kids with IQs of 180.

The main reasons people smoke it are GABA boost, primarily, and secondarily, a dopamine boost, more minor, both indirect effects of the binding. But that binding will definitely result in receptor loss. You can disagree with me all you want on the effects or severity of the effects of that receptor loss, but the receptor loss is an absolute reality, not only clinically proven, but logically unavoidable, as it is a non-retrievable analogue, and you can logically deduce that it would be so,

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Tuesday, January 18, 2011 7:41 AM

DREAMTROVE

For anyone not getting the mechanism, Consider this:

Visualize each NT as a Lego piece.

Lego neurotransmitters:

The reuptake enzyme is another Lego used to pull off the NT Lego. (I did this all the time as a kid, best way to get a stuck Lego off.)

My old standby reuptake Lego:

The receptor is a Lego board you have attached the NT Lego to.

Cell receptors with Lego NTs awaiting reuptake:

An analog is like a flat-top Lego. Nothing for the enzyme Lego to grab. So it stays there, forever. It will need to be replaced with another Lego receptor board. This could take years.

The smooth topped Lego analogue:

Note that this sucker cannot be pulled off with the red Lego brick, the only tool your brain has to get it off, outside of junking the receptor board and startin over, which will take a long time.

Also note that it is the initial binding triggers the reaction, the receptor board is going to do nothing until the next time it is bound to. Once this white sucked is on, that board is turned off, useless.

I hope this simple analogy helps everyone see the basic mechanics of receptor binding in the brain. Yes, it gets more complicated than this in that each binding creates a chain reaction of other NT release and neural signals, etc., but all of that too is lost with the receptor. The receptor ayatem really is this simple.

Ultimately, those NTs that do get taken up will be put back into a a re-uptake channel and stored in a vesicle (drawer of legos) unless some pharmaceutical has monkeyed with that reuptake channel (locked the drawer) this also reverses, in a month or so, so it's not a permanent effect, but you can see where this reuptake blocking is also a bad idea.

What PR has done here with the 5htp is the smart thing to do. Still, in the brain, everything is to be done with a LOT of caution.

Two other analogies I use:

1) picture the mind like a pond. The goal is clarity of thought, and this is achieved with the stillness of the pond. Drugs are like throwing rocks in the pond. They may effect the particular swelling you see, but they will not make stillness. (I wouldn't put precursors in this category, they are basically brain food)

2) picture the brain as an intricate glass sculpture. If it is to be moved, it must be done with great care. Don't go out and play touch football with it, or it is unlikely to come back in repairable condition.

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Tuesday, January 18, 2011 10:53 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Third, a warning about 5-htp, which is an excellent anti depressant because it's the direct precursor to serotonin. The warning is don't take it if a) you don't feel depressed* or b) you cannot feel the happy happy effect of having just taken it. Long term use of relatively high doses cause amnesia due to an insensitivity of the 5ht1a memory receptor.

I appreciate the warning, but believe me, I don't take any of this lightly. When I first got tested and my doctor recommended 5htp for my particular case (for some other cases he would recommend something called SAM-e, which does a similar thing I guess but has less impact on dopamine levels, I think) I took it every day for awhile. When I started feeling better, I moved to taking it on an as-needed basis. Depending on my stress level, I only take it a few times a week, and I don't take more than 50mg. It's only one piece of the puzzle, but I can't remember feeling better in my life, and I can still improve as more pieces shift into place.
I don't take any dopamine precursors. I think that would be a bad plan for someone with twice normal levels. I'm anxious enough with the dopamine I have. I'm curious about which ones you use, though, as someone very dear to me likely suffers from profoundly depleted dopamine. (I keep trying to get him to test his levels so we can be sure, but he's stubborn like the ox.)
I've done some meditation. My parents are both some denomination of Buddhism, so I've been exposed to it from an early age. I'd like to explore it more, especially as I find out more about its profound impacts on the nervous system.

I do not need the written code of a spiritual belief to act like a decent human being.

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Tuesday, January 18, 2011 11:27 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Rose, I've always had an interest in bio-feedback, too...to me it's somewhat akin to meditation, but takes it a step further.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, January 18, 2011 2:18 PM

DREAMTROVE

There are a lot of ancient meditation techniques that work very well from China, Tibet and India. The key is to think of nothing, and some involve visualization.

Don't kill high dopamine levels too much, dopamine makes you smart. Still, serotonin is a happy happy thing, and gives you perspective. 5htp is the direct serotonin precursor, and I wish I had taken a low dose as you do. I would like to undo now, but I have to figure out how. Anyway, it has no direct effect on dopamine, but they do compete. Ideally, you will end up with higher levels of all NTs and just be super smart.

I think I have neurotransmitter envy.

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Tuesday, January 18, 2011 3:44 PM

MINCINGBEAST

we're not naturally stoned. were i naturally stoned i would not have to go to such great lengths to become unaturally stoned.

the take away in all of this is that ya'll have intoxicants in your brains, and that if ingested in sufficient quantity, i could get high off your brains.

so i'm going to.

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Tuesday, January 18, 2011 6:47 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER

Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
we're not naturally stoned. were i naturally stoned i would not have to go to such great lengths to become unaturally stoned.

the take away in all of this is that ya'll have intoxicants in your brains, and that if ingested in sufficient quantity, i could get high off your brains.

Are you a Mindflayer?

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Tuesday, January 18, 2011 9:21 PM

DREAMTROVE

Mince 2012 - Why vote for the lesser evil?

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Wednesday, January 19, 2011 1:27 PM

MINCINGBEAST

Why do Zombies eat your brains first? They're junkies, obviously.

I am not a mindflayer. Mindflayers do not exist. I do, as evidenced by this posting.

Also, Ia ia cthulu and so forth, but Cthulu is like Mohammed. You ought not portray him--man must not presume to limit the ineffable, ghastly cthulu with futile representation in silly visual media. And those that would vote for Cthulu trivialize great Cthulu, and are likely to die under mysterious circumstances.

Anyway, research suggests that adrenochrome may be a myth, but I am nonetheless obsessed with the notion of getting high of someone's brain. If I could, for example, consume all of the canniboids in someone's brain it would be just like getting high on someone else's nightmares . How awesome is that?

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Wednesday, January 19, 2011 6:22 PM

DREAMTROVE

Cthulhu has already invaded my dreams. I have to say it was among the most terrifying experiences of my life. It's truly more than it would seem from Lovecraft. He captured not just the fear of inhuman, but human. In my dream the minions of Cthulhu were not at all chaotically crazed and deformed mutants, but rather straight and orderly devotees, white men in white, with shaved heads, priestly, polite, and very very fucking insane. One of the few dreams likely to stick with me in its entirety, and logically consistent to the end.

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Thursday, January 20, 2011 8:46 AM

MINCINGBEAST

I wonder, if I slurped your brain juice, would I have the same dream?

Having read "The Call of Cthulu" to rabbits every night for 3 years grants me authority on the subject. It is well known known that mulattoes and other scum are Cthulu's worshippers, not white dudes clad in white. One of HP's many virtues was virulent, crazed racism, which animates much of his work.

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Thursday, January 20, 2011 12:03 PM

DREAMTROVE

Mince

His Aryan supremacy I find amusing, but his racism is slightly annoying, because he clearly doesn't believe it. He is preying on the weak minds of his time, exploiting their fears. He uses criminal archetypes, racial stereotypes and general fear of otherness. In lovecraft, its quaint, because no one shares those today, but in modern fiction when it's today's tired fear memes, serial killers, psychos, terrorists, etc., it gets old real fast.

Lovecraft, alas, gives himself away by his level of understanding of the cultures and races he deplores in fiction. No one who actually held these attitudes was as educated or informated as he was. Sure, they might hold other biased world views or forms of racism, but those aren't what he employs, he uses very base racism that is well buried in the minds of his contemporary audience at the time. He is using them to generate fear, in a manner of the creeping dread, which says more about his time than it does about him.

That said, I kinda like the stuff, in part for the retro steam punk feel of the time, but the big bad is always disappointing.

In my dream, it was not at all disappointing. I think this was my mind upgrading the concept.

Alas, lately I'm unable to feel fear, as a victim of the guinea pig looney bin. I would have like to have met lovecraft though, all those followers of krishnamurti. Ironically, they had a lotion common with the early zionists. A lot in common, not a lotion. iPad is still awesome though.

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Thursday, January 20, 2011 12:23 PM

MINCINGBEAST

DT,

The relative import of Lovecraft's very well documented, very virulent racism to his fiction is open to dispute. One camp finds it at the thematic heart of his work; the other, just a product of his times, and a symptom of his general rejection of life, the body and all things life affirming.

His personal correspodence is full of lurid diatribes against the lesser races that make portions of the Horror at Redhook seem positively PC--my personal favorite being the observation that for a man of taste, sharing a beach with an African American is the equivalent of doing the same with a monkey. Yet despite this awful attitude, he was for a brief period married to a Jewess.

In any event, Lovecraft has never scared me--just made me feel despair at the absolute futility of life and the insignificance of all things human. I love that feeling.

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Thursday, January 20, 2011 12:42 PM

DREAMTROVE

I did say he was an aryan supremacist didn't I?

But that's not the sort of racism in the tales. I didn't mean to say that he was a product of his times in terms of believe, I meant he was deliberately using that racism of his times as a cheap fear mongering tactic, it's annoying at times, as is the dreaded thing that isn't quite so dread, but yes, he does strike a chord somewhere. Maybe one of the four from the axis of awesome.

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Thursday, January 20, 2011 12:46 PM

MINCINGBEAST

Wasn't trying to argue with you, DT, merely converse on a subject that is precious to me: hate, and HP Lovecraft. Were I disputing, I would begin with something like

"OMFG WRONG"

or

"You are, asshole, in error."

I'll begin all future posts this way.

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Thursday, January 20, 2011 1:35 PM

DREAMTROVE

Sorry Mince, the mood of RWED got the better of me.

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Thursday, January 20, 2011 1:39 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

I got all your stones.. right here.

lol

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

P.S I'm all out of fuken bubblegum.

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Friday, January 21, 2011 1:48 PM

MINCINGBEAST

Whether stones was used literally ("testicles") or figuratively ("i am hella brave"), I do not believe you.

You could convince me of both, however.

You bear the burden of production. And persuasion.

So show me your birth certificate. no, i mean, stones.

What are you hiding?

If you have stones, then you have nothing to hide. Not even your stones. So show them.

Why won't you display your stones, and clear up the amibiguity?

This is a controversy. You could make this controversy go away, if you would just show me your stones.

People will continue to question your stones until you show your stones.

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