Sign Up | Log In
REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS
Christian Fundamentalists and the Rise of the Radical Right
Monday, July 11, 2011 8:24 AM
NIKI2
Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...
Quote:Fundamentalist Christian churches are growing in membership and influence despite holding views that are incompatible with any reasonable understanding of our world and how it works. Their intellectual schizophrenia allows them to hold beliefs that are incompatible with the world view that depends on the conclusions and implications of science that we (and they!) rely on daily to function in the modern world. They deny the fundamental premises and conclusions of geology, biology, physics, anthropology, archaeology and astronomy. They deny a world view that most of us take for granted. The growth of these Fundamentalist groups is counter-intuitive, but may be an unfortunate consequence of a serious decline in general literacy and in the quality, breadth and scope of liberal arts education in the United States. What is particularly disturbing about this anti-intellectual trend is that members of these fundamentalist groups hold views with implications that are dangerous and destructive for our civilization, for our nation, for world peace, and for human rights and freedoms. [ed. note: We will expand on this particular issue in a subsequent article.] What is the appeal of these fundamentalist religious groups? They are strikingly similar once you get beneath the surface and their shared characteristics may help explain their wide and growing appeal. Their “closed" belief system provides simple answers to complex political and social problems, but more importantly fundamentalist provides simplistic answers to ultimate questions of meaning and existence. Simplicity helps their adherents resolve the ultimate “problem” of being human, what Existentialists call angst (or ultimate anxiety). Angst means the consciousness of death-- the awareness of being human, of mortality, of non-being. It is comforting to have answers to life’s deepest questions and Fundamentalism provides relief from angst by postulating that there is some form of continued existence in an afterlife after death. Fundamentalist Christians believe that there is a world beyond our world of experience [“heaven”] in which the injustices and evils of this world will finally be overcome and their God (and ultimate good and ultimate justice) will triumph over the unavoidable evil and injustice of our experience. They view our world as a cosmic struggle with stark contrasts between the antagonists: black and white, good and evil, God and Satan, good guys and bad guys, allies and enemies, us and them—a world in which the religious believer is on the side of right and has a duty to “fight evil” as they define it from their particular vantage point. Fundamentalists have a deep emotional commitment to the ultimate truth and virtue of their particular religious beliefs, which remain unaffected and unreachable by relevant fact, rational argument, daily experience or common sense. Many of these religious groups combine their fundamentalist religious ideas with a wide range of far right political, economic and social agendas. In the past five years or so these right wing religious-political alliances have used political power aggressively and with considerable success in their attempt to impose their political, social and economic philosophy, their standards of public conduct, and their moral values on the rest of society. This potent combination of having the answers, knowing what is good and evil, standing on the side of right in a cosmic struggle against the forces of darkness, believing in a world beyond this one, being totally committed to their cause, and using political power to realize their objectives makes them troublesome to deal with in our pluralistic society -- and sometimes it makes them dangerous. Religious fundamentalists -- whether Islamic, Jewish or Christian -- seem to have few scruples and no moral difficulty using political and police power to force citizens who do not agree with them to live by their social, political or religious rules. Some of the more extreme among them have no difficulty using and justifying the use of force (including deadly force and torture) against those who oppose them or their objectives or whoever they determine to be their enemies. There is little to distinguish the bomb thrower at a family planning clinic in Atlanta, from the Israeli settler tossing a bomb into the home of a Palestinian family, or the Sunni bomber blowing up a Shiite mosque in Iraq.. Regrettably the frequency of the link between religious fundamentalism and terrorism is not all that surprising if we look at the history of religions, particularly in the Western world. I want to be clear about the way I use the word terrorism because it is easy to get carried away with the imagery and so dilute the full impact of the picture that word should bring to mind. I mean terrorism in its most precise meaning – the use of deadly force against others in an attempt to achieve political goals, frequently under cover of a religious or other ideological rationale or justification. In the early days of our own country our forefathers endured the religious excesses of the self- righteous Puritan leaders of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, who were quick to punish with enthusiasm (and apparently with an easy conscience) anyone who transgressed their strict behavioral rules defining upright and moral conduct. They had no qualms about burning witches — and their definition of witches seems to have been broad enough that almost any woman who got out of line could find herself burned at the stake by the good Christians of the time, who argued that such barbaric punishment was justified because it ridded their community of great potential evil. These good Christian men (and they were all men!) were confident they were doing god’s work and so they acted with untroubled consciences. People do terrible things in the name of religion. The arrogance and self-righteousness that presumes to know the mind and will of god is not only self-delusion, it is the cause of much evil in our world. Watching a recent PBS series on the history of the Papacy I was struck by how essentially evil many of the early popes were – how cavalierly they ruled, how combative they were with whatever secular political force opposed their authority, how immoral many of them were in their personal lives, how often they abused their vows and ignored their duties, how easily they used and abused the power of the Church as they extended their domination both politically and religiously, how greedily they grabbed lands for themselves to build empires both political and financial, how cruelly they treated anyone who opposed their rule, how viciously they dealt with those whose religious beliefs differed from their own, how easily they let debates about the nature of Christ turn into battles over religious turf, political territory and power, how arrogant they were when they presumed to be infallible in matters of faith and morality, how viciously they attempted to force their truth on others, how little they seemed to value humility and virtue. The Inquisition was an unfortunate time in the history of the Christian Church, when the Popes and their obedient soldiers the Jesuits implemented a plan to purify the Church from unorthodox teachings, particularly teachings about the source of authority for political power and religious teaching (which the Church said lay in the Pope). The object of the Inquisition was to identify wrong belief and conduct using torture as an instrument of the church to save the souls of those unfortunate individuals who had errant beliefs by torturing them until they recanted their error and accepted the true teaching of the Church. As late as the 1930s we are reminded how easily the dangerous alliance of religion and politics led the Catholic Church into a moral compromise with fascism, as Pope Pius XII negotiated a deal with Mussolini to ensure that the Church kept its land holdings in Rome, now Vatican City, in exchange for an agreement that the Church would stay out of politics in the rest of Italy. We are surprised to hear the Church’s excuse that its compromise was a necessary bargain with the devil in order that a greater good might result. In that same period of time we also saw how easily the Nazis co-opted the Protestant churches of Germany into acquiescence with Nazi practices in exchange for their survival as a state church. It is amazing that early Christianity survived these unlikely church leaders to become the dominant religion of the Western world. Despite its ill-informed and badly-behaving leaders, Christianity has become the most significant influence in the development of the basic humanitarian, moral and social values of the Western world of today. We look, so far in disappointment, for those who define themselves as Christian leaders today to do better than their predecessors in speaking truth to power. The lesson here is that for someone with religious authority and political power to believe that he knows the will of God and that he/she is the instrument of God to confront evil and to build god’s kingdom on earth is the product of arrogance and self-delusion. In Christian theology, that self-delusion is precisely what is meant by the concept of sin. History continues to repeat itself. The arrogance and self-delusion of the powerful that they alone know what is good for others applies to President Bush, who has said on several occasions that he believes that he was chosen at this time and place to be the instrument of God to lead America and to bring democracy and Western values to the Middle East. The self-delusion of the powerful when combined with a sense of theocratic mission and a lack of Christian humility and self-criticism is particularly dangerous in a political leader in a democracy. If there is anything that the history of Christianity teaches us, it is that power tends to corrupt those who have it. That unhappy combination of political power and religious authority has been responsible for a great deal of mischief in our world and it continues to wreak havoc on us today.
Monday, July 11, 2011 8:41 AM
BYTEMITE
Monday, July 11, 2011 9:26 AM
Monday, July 11, 2011 9:37 AM
Monday, July 11, 2011 9:42 AM
Monday, July 11, 2011 10:11 AM
AURAPTOR
America loves a winner!
Monday, July 11, 2011 11:25 AM
MAGONSDAUGHTER
Monday, July 11, 2011 11:48 AM
Monday, July 11, 2011 11:55 AM
Monday, July 11, 2011 12:05 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Magonsdaughter: So you don't mind Christians who believe their holy book should be followed to the letter, but you despise Muslims if they believe the same? Interesting
Monday, July 11, 2011 1:02 PM
Monday, July 11, 2011 1:10 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Magonsdaughter: hmmmmm- history is replete with examples that prove you otherwise, as the article Niki posted demonstrate.
Monday, July 11, 2011 1:59 PM
Monday, July 11, 2011 2:26 PM
RIONAEIRE
Beir bua agus beannacht
Monday, July 11, 2011 3:06 PM
FREMDFIRMA
Monday, July 11, 2011 3:08 PM
THEHAPPYTRADER
Monday, July 11, 2011 3:18 PM
Monday, July 11, 2011 3:44 PM
Quote:Originally posted by TheHappyTrader: My thoughts are that the author is prejudiced against fundamentalists. But I guess that's okay, cause they are Christians, and hating them is kind of in vogue.
Quote:The author could have made an effective point on how extremism and the assumption of divine authority can be a dangerous combination. It could have challenged these various fundamentalist groups to re-evaluate how violence relates (or more accurate doesn't relate) to their beliefs and what it accomplishes.
Quote:What is the appeal of these fundamentalist religious groups? They are strikingly similar once you get beneath the surface and their shared characteristics may help explain their wide and growing appeal. Their “closed" belief system provides simple answers to complex political and social problems, but more importantly fundamentalist provides simplistic answers to ultimate questions of meaning and existence. Simplicity helps their adherents resolve the ultimate “problem” of being human, what Existentialists call angst (or ultimate anxiety). Angst means the consciousness of death-- the awareness of being human, of mortality, of non-being. It is comforting to have answers to life’s deepest questions and Fundamentalism provides relief from angst by postulating that there is some form of continued existence in an afterlife after death.
Quote:Religious fundamentalists -- whether Islamic, Jewish or Christian -- seem to have few scruples and no moral difficulty using political and police power to force citizens who do not agree with them to live by their social, political or religious rules. Some of the more extreme among them have no difficulty using and justifying the use of force (including deadly force and torture) against those who oppose them or their objectives or whoever they determine to be their enemies. There is little to distinguish the bomb thrower at a family planning clinic in Atlanta, from the Israeli settler tossing a bomb into the home of a Palestinian family, or the Sunni bomber blowing up a Shiite mosque in Iraq..
Quote:The lesson here is that for someone with religious authority and political power to believe that he knows the will of God and that he/she is the instrument of God to confront evil and to build god’s kingdom on earth is the product of arrogance and self-delusion. In Christian theology, that self-delusion is precisely what is meant by the concept of sin.
Quote:But, as is clearly evident, the author has an axe to grind with the Christian Fundamentalist, labeling them as 'anti-intellectual' and basing the argument on hypothetical situations and outdated sources from a more violent time in our world's history.
Quote:I'm not fundamentalist, least aways not by the functional pop-definition of it, but I am pretty sure the book we both read does not instruct us to rebuke science and burn witches. More over, it does not instruct us to judge others or to 'fight evil.' It does not advocate violence of any kind. It tells us to love, to forgive, and to not forget how deserving we aren't of the gifts we've been freely given.
Quote: Frankly, I find the article arrogant and offensive.
Monday, July 11, 2011 3:46 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: MD, you're flat out wrong. The invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were not, in any way, religiously motivated. So you claims are completely invalid. More muslims have killed muslims in Iraq than western forces have killed muslims. That's a fact. The current fanaticism of muslims in undeniably more violent than anything found across the world w/ christians. " I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
Monday, July 11, 2011 3:53 PM
Quote:Yes, and quite an important axe to grind give Christian fundamentalist agendas of anti evolution and other scientific thinking, preferring instead to believe (and promoting the beliefs) of mythology and fairytale as fact.
Monday, July 11, 2011 3:56 PM
Monday, July 11, 2011 4:01 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Magonsdaughter: Really, I'd get more sense having a discussion with my dog.
Monday, July 11, 2011 4:35 PM
GEEZER
Keep the Shiny side up
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: Fundamentalist Christian churches are growing in membership and influence despite holding views that are incompatible with any reasonable understanding of our world and how it works.
Monday, July 11, 2011 4:43 PM
Monday, July 11, 2011 5:11 PM
Quote: There is nothing inherently more violent about Islam than Christianity.
Monday, July 11, 2011 5:16 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Bytemite: Quote:Yes, and quite an important axe to grind give Christian fundamentalist agendas of anti evolution and other scientific thinking, preferring instead to believe (and promoting the beliefs) of mythology and fairytale as fact. See, maybe this is inadvertant, but even as an atheist who used to absolutely hate Christianity and to get in fist fights with the jocks at my school mouthing off, this seems too much to me. People want to believe in stuff like that, it's their prerogative, I think. And yes, I object to fundamentalists forcing their beliefs on others, but I don't object to them believing those beliefs.
Monday, July 11, 2011 5:21 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Quote: There is nothing inherently more violent about Islam than Christianity. And there you have it, folks. MD's inability, unwillingness to step out of the realm of never never land, and into the literal, actual world. We're not debating on what's inherently / potentially / theoretically here...we're dealing in that ACTUAL. What really IS happening, and what has happened, in our world, in our time, NOW. You're so programmed, so conditioned to refuse to accept that any ONE thing is any better than/ worse than another, your kool-aid drinking adherence to the PC mindset has completely blinded you.
Monday, July 11, 2011 5:29 PM
Quote:Originally posted by TheHappyTrader: There's a bit of a qualifier there, the term effectively. I think the point could be more effectively presented in a different manner. As to the old testament references, there's this whole new testament thing with this guy call 'Jesus.' I hear he changed a couple of those things and his life is the basis of the 'Christian' religion. We don't have to agree, I was just voicing my opinion, and my opinion is that is article selects a few events and people to negatively brand an entire group of people, much in he manner you all were accusing Hardware of doing with the 'flash mob' fiasco.
Monday, July 11, 2011 5:33 PM
Monday, July 11, 2011 5:39 PM
Quote:But the issue with fundamentalism and the Christian right is that they push their agenda. They aren't just holding prayer meetings, they're lobbying hard, and they've got deep pockets which they don't mind digging into to support candidates who will support their hardline on the above issues.
Monday, July 11, 2011 5:45 PM
Quote:I don't think I accused Hardware of anything at all, if you care to re-read that thread.
Quote:You have kind of summed up how I see the difference between Fundamental Christians and mainstream Christians. More mainstream Christians follow the New testament and the teachings of Christ. They might refer or enjoy sections of the Old Testament, but the main teachings for them are in the NT. Fundamentalists see the Bible in its entirety as the word of God, although the lord knows they pick and choose which bits to reference. They use parts of the old Testament to back up a whole host of their beliefs, including how the world was created and how it will end. They don't believe that Genesis is a metaphor or a way of explaining humanity's origins in a time prior to the existence scientific reasoning, but that it is actual fact, word for word. And they are often ambitious for political power. Difficult combination.
Monday, July 11, 2011 5:48 PM
Quote:Originally posted by TheHappyTrader: Quote:I don't think I accused Hardware of anything at all, if you care to re-read that thread. I honestly don't, that thread was a waste of space, but point taken. I used the words 'you all' to address the group at large, not you specifically. Quote:You have kind of summed up how I see the difference between Fundamental Christians and mainstream Christians. More mainstream Christians follow the New testament and the teachings of Christ. They might refer or enjoy sections of the Old Testament, but the main teachings for them are in the NT. Fundamentalists see the Bible in its entirety as the word of God, although the lord knows they pick and choose which bits to reference. They use parts of the old Testament to back up a whole host of their beliefs, including how the world was created and how it will end. They don't believe that Genesis is a metaphor or a way of explaining humanity's origins in a time prior to the existence scientific reasoning, but that it is actual fact, word for word. And they are often ambitious for political power. Difficult combination. Not all Fundamentalist Christians are as you describe. Or perhaps we having varying definitions as to what makes a 'Fundamentalist Christian.' I don't like the way this article stereotypes a group of people and it does concern me how some who claim to be against discrimination appear to be blind to this form of bigotry.
Monday, July 11, 2011 5:55 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Magonsdaughter: No matey, I can't do numbers in woofer language. It's more in the paw movement and doesn't translate over the net.
Monday, July 11, 2011 6:13 PM
Monday, July 11, 2011 6:24 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Magonsdaughter: Really why should I respond sanely to you. You speak in meaningless cliches. You can't comprehend rational arguments or any argument that is even subtly more complex than 'Muslim bad - Christian good' and you probably add 'ug' to the end of that sentence. I'm playing with you, Rappy it's cruel I know. Like poking at the village idiot when he's tied to the pole in the square. I must go and repent on my ways and endeavour to do better.
Monday, July 11, 2011 6:30 PM
Monday, July 11, 2011 6:32 PM
Monday, July 11, 2011 7:10 PM
KWICKO
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)
Quote:Originally posted by Magonsdaughter: Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: MD, you're flat out wrong. The invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were not, in any way, religiously motivated. So you claims are completely invalid. More muslims have killed muslims in Iraq than western forces have killed muslims. That's a fact. The current fanaticism of muslims in undeniably more violent than anything found across the world w/ christians. " I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. " Really, I'd get more sense having a discussion with my dog.
Monday, July 11, 2011 7:12 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: cut and paste is not a response. No matter how many paragraphs you copy, you've still lost the argument.
Monday, July 11, 2011 7:16 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: MD , You're just pissed off , ashamed and embarrassed that you can't hold your own in this 'debate', and it shows. The childish insults, the dismissive tone... Why don't you go toe to toe w/ me on this, and we can count how many mass killings have been done in the name of Allah, vs those done in the name of Jesus. Ready ? Let's go. I'll start... Beslan school massacre - Russia. Your turn.
Monday, July 11, 2011 7:24 PM
Monday, July 11, 2011 7:32 PM
Monday, July 11, 2011 7:36 PM
Monday, July 11, 2011 7:38 PM
Monday, July 11, 2011 7:42 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Magonsdaughter: Muslim bad. Christian good. Woof.
Quote:"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)
Quote:Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord. -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
Quote:The anti-Semitism of the new movement [Christian Social movement] was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge. -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
Monday, July 11, 2011 8:13 PM
Monday, July 11, 2011 8:31 PM
YOUR OPTIONS
NEW POSTS TODAY
OTHER TOPICS
FFF.NET SOCIAL