REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Ron, Ron, Ron...

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 15:08
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Monday, August 29, 2011 5:44 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

As Hurricane Irene barrels along the U.S. East Coast, Rep. Ron Paul of Texas said the nation would be much better off without the Federal Emergency Management Agency.

"I live on the Gulf Coast. We put up with hurricanes all the time," the GOP presidential candidate told CNN after a New Hampshire campaign event Friday. "There's no magic about FEMA. More and more people are starting to recognize that."

Paul has long been a critic of the agency, which he calls a "great contributor to deficit financing."

With more than 7,600 employees, FEMA falls under the Department of Homeland Security and coordinates response efforts when disasters strike.

Citing the Galveston hurricane in 1900 that obliterated much of the Texas coast, the libertarian-leaning congressman said Americans were able to rebuild their cities and put up a seawall without the federal government's help.

"FEMA is not a good friend of most people in Texas," Paul said. "All they do is come in and tell you what to do and can't do. You can't get in your houses. And they hinder the local people, and they hinder volunteers from going in."

After Hurricane Ike demolished parts of the Texas coast in 2008, Paul voted against a bill that would funnel billions in aid to the area, which covers his congressional district.

FEMA has since pumped more than $3 billion in federal funds into the state.

The agency received wide criticism in 2005 for failing to respond in a timely, organized manner to the vast destruction wrought by Hurricane Katrina. http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/27/ron-paul-we-dont-need-
fema/#more-172609

I'm sure all the people on the East Coast whom FEMA helped feel the same...right?

This is one of the aspects of Paul that I DON'T like; his determination to do away with everything the federal government does, even the good stuff. Usually, even the hard-core "small government" people agree that disasters are the one place the government CAN help, don't they?

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Monday, August 29, 2011 5:52 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I find myself in a quandary.

I have trouble arguing against an institution that aids people in need.

But...

I have trouble arguing in favor of FEMA.

I seem to recall that this is the same aid organization that poisoned disaster victims by placing them in dangerous housing, went on to ignore the problem for as long as possible, and tried its best to evade responsibility.

Not their only sin, I believe. But I am hardly an expert in the agency.

There are probably a lot of people that are glad of FEMA's help.

And there are probably a lot of people who wished they'd never heard the name FEMA.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Monday, August 29, 2011 6:23 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I don't disagree, but I think a federal disaster team, whether perfect or imperfect, should be one of the things the federal government should provide the people.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, August 29, 2011 9:59 AM

DREAMTROVE


Anthony, I concur.

I think that it has been demonstrated in the past that FEMA, like the UN, is more in the way of people's natural inclination to help one another than it is in assistance. Nowhere made this more clear to me than in New Orleans.


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, August 29, 2011 12:29 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Anthony, you criticized my use of the word sin in another post, and then you use it here, you don't like it when people decide what is and isn't a sin ... remember? Make up your dear sweet mind. Now of course we can all agree that what FIMA did in Katrina was really bad, but if you can ascribe sin then so can I. And its obvious, in case noone got the memmo, that when I say stuff that is considered subjective I'm speaking from my viewpoint and everyone knows that, so the "I think" "I feel" "I believe" part is inferred and when you and Niki whinge about me not adding those preface words you're just wasting a post. I will however try and add those more often if it gets you guys frustrated that much (I'm talking about the porn thread in case you're confused about what I'm talking about.)

But I agree with you that FIMA ruts things up with their burocracy more than they help. I think they need a major overhall, which includes ways to foster local helping and involvement. The spouse of someone in my Browncoats group is going to be working for FIMA, I said he could definitely fix it, it would be better once he's there, hopefully he takes it to heart.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, August 29, 2011 1:26 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

While poisoning people can literally be interpreted as a religious sin (murder) I meant to use 'sin' in the metaphorical sense, not the religious sense.

In any event, I have clearly insulted you with earlier disagreements about the nature of sin. So severe was my transgression that you have carried ire over from one week to the next. I apologize. I did not intend to insult you. Perhaps I need to work on my communication skills.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Monday, August 29, 2011 5:15 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


A Anthony a chara, I only even remembered it because Niki mentioned it by reposting to that thread, otherwise I would have forgotten. I'm just giving you a hard time today. I know you can handle it, and I'll probably be over it by tomorrow. But yeah, I totally agree that FIMA screwed up bad in Katrina and they have some ground to make up.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, August 29, 2011 6:27 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I disagree with the notion that FEMA does more harm than good, or that regulations in general get in the way.

Ron Paul says we should have the same response we had in 1900, when a hurricane nearly wiped the city of Galveston - and damne near wiped the ISLAND of Galveston - from the map. One-sixth or more of the residents died. More than 3600 buildings were destroyed - IN A CITY WITH A POPULATION OF 37,000 PEOPLE. Between 6,000 and 8,000 people died.

Contrast that with what is considered an utter failure by FEMA - New Orleans. An estimated 1800 people died out of a population of nearly half a million. In a storm larger than the 1900 Galveston hurricane, in what is widely viewed as FEMA's worst response ever, fewer than 0.37% of the population of New Orleans actually died. While that's unacceptable by any standards, it's one fuck of a lot better than the more than 16% of the population that died in the Galveston blow.

So yeah, I'd say with FEMA responding, we do at worst almost 50 times better than we did without FEMA responding.

Oh, and our structures tend to withstand such storms quite a bit better, too, thanks to stronger regulations.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, August 29, 2011 7:00 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Well, I can attest to the regulations.

After Andrew, the building code seemed to get revised every year. I didn't agree with all of the revisions, but many of them were aimed at making safer housing. It was quite the obsession for a while. I don't think another Hurricane of any category will ever wound South Florida the way Andrew did. At least, I hope not.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Monday, August 29, 2011 8:52 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Quicko, that's why I disagree with Ron Paul and think we need to keep FEMA, we just need to improve upon it to make it more efficient and make it so it doesn't mess up local efforts. We need to make FEMA able to help coordinate those things better and more efficiently.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, August 30, 2011 3:12 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Looks lile FEMA's biggest problem right now is funding. They're having to reduce payments for tornado and flood recovery in the South and Missori to respond to Irene.

Bi-partisan support for increased FEMA funding is available, however...

Quote:

Lawmakers in both parties have been frustrated with President Barack Obama's budget office, which has only requested $1.8 billion for the FEMA disaster fund despite a long-documented shortfall for disasters like hurricanes Katrina, Rita, Gustav and massive flooding in Tennessee last spring.

House Republicans moved to double that funding this spring after tornadoes killed hundreds in Missouri and Alabama, but the legislation failed to advance in the Democratic-controlled Senate.

A little-noticed provision in the recently-passed debt limit and budget deal permits Congress to pass several billion dollars in additional FEMA disaster aid, but the White House has yet to ask for more money.



http://www.cnbc.com/id/44325898/FEMA_puts_long_term_rebuilding_on_hold
_after_Irene


Too bad the Administration can't allocate 12 hours worth of the military budget to help folks after natural disasters.



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, August 30, 2011 5:48 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Too bad the Administration can't allocate 12 hours worth of the military budget to help folks after natural disasters.
Oh, don't I WISH! And yes, all the cutting all over the place will be affecting many things we take for granted now, and many of them will be safety nets I believe the government SHOULD offer. It's a matter of opinion.

Actually, I don't know a single aspect of our government, federal, state, or local, which works perfectly. I don't know of ANYTHING that does. And the bigger the organization, often the more screwed-up it is. So yes, unquestionably FEMA (along with many other things) needsw revamping big time, but would I rather not have it at alL? To me that's nuts. Odds are pretty strong WE'll never need it, but there are many out there who do, and those "many" change every year...the idea that we should go back a hundred or more years and let people fend for themselves is unconscionable.

I don't know why the White House has been lax about funding, and I don't like it. I also haven't forgotten that Cantor said any money for disaser relief would have to be offset by spending cuts. Maybe that was politispeak, I dunno, but I WOULD like to know what's up with the White House not taking action.

Riona, I knew Anthony was using "sin" metaphorically, and had no intention of offending you. Obviously I did too, for which I apologize. I recognize my prejudice against the more specific, stricter tenants of organized religion gives me a bit of a "chip" on my shoulder, and will try to recognize that you speak for yourself and aren't speaking for me. That last bit comes from my experiences with some so-called Christians (of which you most definitely are NOT) who harrassed me unmercifully over the internet because of my buddhism. I will try to do better.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:49 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Looks lile FEMA's biggest problem right now is funding. They're having to reduce payments for tornado and flood recovery in the South and Missori to respond to Irene.

Bi-partisan support for increased FEMA funding is available, however...

Quote:

Lawmakers in both parties have been frustrated with President Barack Obama's budget office, which has only requested $1.8 billion for the FEMA disaster fund despite a long-documented shortfall for disasters like hurricanes Katrina, Rita, Gustav and massive flooding in Tennessee last spring.

House Republicans moved to double that funding this spring after tornadoes killed hundreds in Missouri and Alabama, but the legislation failed to advance in the Democratic-controlled Senate.

A little-noticed provision in the recently-passed debt limit and budget deal permits Congress to pass several billion dollars in additional FEMA disaster aid, but the White House has yet to ask for more money.



http://www.cnbc.com/id/44325898/FEMA_puts_long_term_rebuilding_on_hold
_after_Irene


Too bad the Administration can't allocate 12 hours worth of the military budget to help folks after natural disasters.



"Keep the Shiny side up"




From what I heard, that "increased funding" would come at the expense of other programs. I wonder why the House can't allocate 1 war's worth of military funding to help folks here at home. Or at least one weapons system's worth.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2011/08/29/good_news_stalled_fema_fu
nding_bill_bans_acorn_funding.html


http://thehill.com/homenews/house/178481-irene-set-to-bleed-fema-infla
me-budget-scrap


http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/08/29/disasters_infra
structure


From the Salon.com article:

Quote:

Eric Cantor is joining the fight to give FEMA more of your taxpayer money, though he is at least demanding that spending be "offset" by cutting spending on other vague unnamed things the government does. (Oh, looks like they are cutting grants for clean energy vehicles.) The House GOP's bill also helps fund disaster response by ... cutting state grants for disaster preparedness. Because the GOP will always select the option that looks cheaper in the short term but that is significantly more expensive in the long run. That option is usually a political winner!

Such are the incentives of the American political system. The Pentagon spending $50 million on a "lightning weapon" that doesn't work is business as usual but making sure our bridges are sturdy enough to withstand strong tropical storms is a low priority.

The bill to clean up New York City -- which wasn't hit nearly as hard as Southern states, and which didn't experience a fraction of the flooding Vermont did -- will be big, but that's in large part because of the sorry state of New York's ancient infrastructure. The commuter rails are crippled. The airports -- especially JFK, which practically shuts down any time the wind picks up -- are shut down. Thousands of outer-borough residents and many of the nearby suburbs are completely without power. These are some of the oldest cities in the country, and their power and water and transportation systems show it.

New York City's mayor and city council have extremely limited control over the city's mass transit system. Finding the cash to turn the NYPD into a paramilitary international intelligence agency is no problem. Replacing the Tappan Zee Bridge will take another decade. And replacing a bridge is at least a big, sexy project that state legislators love. It's even harder to get people excited about addressing sand erosion in Rockaway Beach.

The Economist had a great piece on America's low infrastructure spending and the political incentives that got us here. States are rewarded for building new highways instead of fixing existing roads, our gas tax is low, small states have disproportionate influence on spending, and the governor of New Jersey (who recently learned to love big government) can unilaterally cancel a transportation project in New York.




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Tuesday, August 30, 2011 12:54 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

I don't know why the White House has been lax about funding, and I don't like it. I also haven't forgotten that Cantor said any money for disaser relief would have to be offset by spending cuts. Maybe that was politispeak, I dunno, but I WOULD like to know what's up with the White House not taking action.



Probably because the White House doesn't fund FEMA; Congress does. Spending/budget bills originate in the House, only in THIS House, they really don't, do they?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, August 30, 2011 4:16 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


The problem with humanity is that we're notoriously short sighted, our clear memory and applying lessons skills seem to only last about five to ten years, then we start forgetting how things happened, how we felt at the time. If something affected our lives big time then we remember it more, but if it didn't have a direct and clearly tangible effect on us it sort of fades in our minds. Katrina was six years ago, and so people aren't thinking as much about huge disasters, so they don't think we need as much money. Then we get a hurricane again that covers a wide range, though statistically not as bad as Katrina, and then people remember how much we need federal disaster aid. The public consciousness is fickle and flighty. Maybe this belongs in the deficit fever thread, but oh well, everyone reads all the threads anyways.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 5:06 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Actually, human social memory is very long. We still revere and respond to sacred texts. Language and writing and the stories that go with them have existed for ten thousand years or more. Technology - social memory in physical form- has existed for thousands of years. (Look up the definition of "memes")

The problem is, "human memory" .. memes... is being interfered with BY THE MEDIA, who want nothing more than a bunch of mindless droids to sell shit to. We are programmed to think that everything has a happy ending in 30 or 60 minutes (less commercial breaks), that "news" changes every day (Fukushima, anyone?) and that buying shit is the premier goal of life.

Oh, BTW_ the best argument for why we need NATIONAL disaster relief:

You can't expect a devastated community to rebuild itself because they're devastated. You can't expect to operate on yourself

That's one of the reasons why I will prolly not vote for RP- because he's an idiot, who can't see the most obvious things.

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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 6:01 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Actually, "human social memory" IS very long. It's as much politicians who WORK on the concept of short memory. You mentioned "every five or ten years"...what does that relate to? How about terms for politicians? Many (not all) of them work on the concept of "it'll look good while I'm in office, then I can get out and let it be the next guy's problem"--and when they can be re-elected, they're pretty sure they can distract with other issues, blame the other party, or appeal to their constituents in ways that ignore their earlier short sightedness. it usually works. Sometimes it doesn't and they lose their office, but that seems to be a chance they're happy to take, as long as it makes them look good NOW.

Paul is, in my opinion, honest about his stances, and it's proven that he stands by them without compromising. Unfortunately some of his stances aren't realistic, so his unwillingness to compromise makes him unviable as a candidate.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 1:31 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Actually, human social memory is very long. We still revere and respond to sacred texts. Language and writing and the stories that go with them have existed for ten thousand years or more. Technology - social memory in physical form- has existed for thousands of years. (Look up the definition of "memes")

The problem is, "human memory" .. memes... is being interfered with BY THE MEDIA, who want nothing more than a bunch of mindless droids to sell shit to. We are programmed to think that everything has a happy ending in 30 or 60 minutes (less commercial breaks), that "news" changes every day (Fukushima, anyone?) and that buying shit is the premier goal of life.

Oh, BTW_ the best argument for why we need NATIONAL disaster relief:

You can't expect a devastated community to rebuild itself because they're devastated. You can't expect to operate on yourself

That's one of the reasons why I will prolly not vote for RP- because he's an idiot, who can't see the most obvious things.




Very good point(s).

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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 2:19 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Whatever you want to call it, it seems to work, everyone forgets how bad things were after five to ten years/terms in office do last about that long. Politicians have figured that that's how our brains seem to work these days so they capitalize on it. I'm not saying it has always worked this way, but people now adays.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 3:08 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!




FEMA Deliberately Sabotaging Hurricane Relief Efforts, Multiple parishes revolt, use armed guards to defend against feds

Numerous credible sources have come forward with examples of how the Federal Emergency Management Agency is deliberately sabotaging Hurricane Katrina relief efforts in New Orleans. This represents a ruthless attempt on the part of FEMA to impose a federal takeover of the area for their own benefit amid a tragedy that has already claimed anything up to 10,000 lives.

The mainstream media has picked up on this story but is whitewashing it as just another 'failure' of the federal government in dealing with the crisis.

In reality the actions are part of a coordinated campaign to deepen the scope of the disaster in order to force through bumper funding increases for FEMA.

Jefferson Parish President Aaron Broussard (pictured below) appeared on Meet the Press Sunday and broke down in tears as he described FEMA's criminal activities.

"We have been abandoned by our own country. Hurricane Katrina will go down in history as one of the worst storms ever to hit an American coast, but the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina will go down as one of the worst abandonments of Americans on American soil ever in U.S. history."

We had Wal-Mart deliver three trucks of water, trailer trucks of water. FEMA turned them back. They said we didn't need them. This was a week ago. FEMA--we had 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel on a Coast Guard vessel docked in my parish. The Coast Guard said, "Come get the fuel right away." When we got there with our trucks, they got a word. "FEMA says don't give you the fuel." Yesterday--yesterday--FEMA comes in and cuts all of our emergency communication lines. They cut them without notice. Our sheriff, Harry Lee, goes back in, he reconnects the line.

He posts armed guards on our line and says, "No one is getting near these lines."

Why would FEMA, an organization supposedly tasked with helping in a time of crisis, deliberately cut police communication lines? This is a blatant example of sabotage and a sick push to make the disaster worse. In carrying out these actions, FEMA are no better than the animals who shot at rescue workers and helicopters.

Watch the video of the Meet the Press interview.

The mission of FEMA has never in reality been to bring people food and water and help in times of crisis. Alex Jones has attended numerous FEMA drills where the whole point of the exercise is to round people up, break up families and institute a brutal police state crackdown.

FEMA need to create a chaotic atmosphere in New Orleans so they can legitimize what they are doing.

We now have multiple reports of police being ordered to guard key infrastructures in order to defend them from FEMA federal agents. Sheriffs in numerous different counties are guarding highways to keep FEMA out. FEMA is being treated as the enemy because they are sabotaging key facilities in an effort to intentionally worsen the already desperate scenes of horror in New Orleans.

FEMA is sabotaging lines of communication so their activities cannot be exposed to the wider relief authorities and the media.

Commenting on the sabotage by FEMA of communication lines, Washington insider Wayne Madsen states,

"Jamming radio and other communications such as television signals is part of a Pentagon tactic called "information blockade" or "technology blockade." The tactic is one of a number of such operations that are part of the doctrine of "information warfare" and is one of the psychological operations (PSYOPS) methods used by the US Special Operations Command."

Radio host Carol Baker who has been tracking the FEMA sabotage stated that Plaquemines Parish Sheriff Jeff Hingle had his deputies patrol the county line under orders not to let FEMA in.

As is discussed in the Meet the Press interview, Jefferson Parish Sheriff Harry Lee also has armed guards patrolling the county line in order to prevent the FEMA sabotage.

FEMA has a number of executive orders that outline the total federal takeover of any US city.

For a full synopsis of FEMA's executive orders in light of the hurricane, click here.

FEMA is clearly using this human catastrophe as a means of executing its decade long plans and providing the pretext for future takeover scenarios of all major American cities.

Amongst a litany of government inaction and outright dereliction, this is the most alarming evidence to emerge yet that clearly indicates an agenda for the federal government to profit and expand its power from exploiting the aftermath of the hurricane.

http://www.infowars.com/articles/new_orleans/fema_deliberately_sabotag
e_relief_efforts.htm



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