REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Postal Service doing great...or not

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Thursday, September 8, 2011 19:04
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Monday, September 5, 2011 9:27 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I found this interesting. Here, we've been getting frequent commercials for the Post Office, reminding us that "not a single taxpayer penny pays for the Post Office, its only source of income is stamps, etc."
Quote:

The U.S. Postal Service does not have the money to meet an obligation to a retiree health care trust fund coming due at the end of the month, but if there's a default, officials promise no interruption in the mail, the payroll, or payments to suppliers. http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/09/05/postal.default/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
I also heard some pundits discussing how the Postal Service wants to do away with Saturday deliveries, and a few other things which indicate they might not be in the "healthiest" of positions, financially.

Would find it amusing except it probably means thousands of postal workers will be screwed out of their pensions in the end.

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Monday, September 5, 2011 9:46 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


And while they don't get taxpayer money, they DO have to go to Congress for approval of every rate increase, instead of letting the "free market" decide their rates. That's why a letter costs $0.44 to mail through the USPS, and $26.00 through UPS.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, September 5, 2011 10:40 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Bah, I don't mind subsidizing the postal service, it might not be the most effective or efficient method, but having it as a baseline with the option to pay someone else more for better service is a damn good system, one well WORTH investing tax money into.

You could almost say the effectiveness of that system sets a good precedent for my medicare-expansion option, yes ?

And think about it, isn't it better to invest tax money into serving the people who pay taxes than bombing the fuck out of folks ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, September 5, 2011 10:44 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Ach, you're being way too logical, Frem. Knock that off!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, September 5, 2011 3:15 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Bah, I don't mind subsidizing the postal service, it might not be the most effective or efficient method, but having it as a baseline with the option to pay someone else more for better service is a damn good system, one well WORTH investing tax money into.

You could almost say the effectiveness of that system sets a good precedent for my medicare-expansion option, yes ?

And think about it, isn't it better to invest tax money into serving the people who pay taxes than bombing the fuck out of folks ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.



Couldn't agree more. The USPS has a niche, and they need to work around that and exploit it. For parcels and for packages under a few pounds, for stuff that's going to a residence, and for medium-sized packages shipping internationally - and for just about ANYTHING going to Puerto Rico, Guam, Saipan, Alaska, Hawaii, or any US territory or protectorate outside the continental U.S., the Postal Service is the way to go.

Think about it: I can send 10 pounds of goodies to someone in Hawaii in a Medium Flat-Rate Box for $10.50, and it will be there usually in 2-3 days. Same for Alaska. Try that with FedEx or UPS - I dare ya!

I shipped a package to the Czech Republic last week via USPS. $45.50 to the person's doorstep. UPS wanted $385.00 for that service.

What USPS may need to do now is up their rates a bit, so they're still competitive but not losing money on the deal.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, September 5, 2011 4:48 PM

DREAMTROVE


It's a good service, I think we could open to more competition, but the nice thing about USPS is that it runs in communities like mine, where UPS and Fedex don't go because it's not worth it. I like walking across the street, the post office is just three doors down from the store, and not driving 30 miles to ship an order someone places.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Tuesday, September 6, 2011 2:04 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Also remember that the Post Office is required by law to deliver just about anything. Imagine if they didn't have to lug those newsprint "Merchandiser" and "Coupon Clipper" junk mail deliveries, or the bulk mailings from Citibank, etc. that cost them half of what you pay to mail a first class letter.


"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, September 6, 2011 3:58 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Also remember that the Post Office is required by law to deliver just about anything. Imagine if they didn't have to lug those newsprint "Merchandiser" and "Coupon Clipper" junk mail deliveries, or the bulk mailings from Citibank, etc. that cost them half of what you pay to mail a first class letter.


"Keep the Shiny side up"



Hello,

They set the rates. It is their job to be competitive AND profitable. They used to be, and those mailings should be part of their profit.

The USPS was once the only government agency that funded itself and even made money. I think they are suffering from a failure to adapt to a changing world.

I do feel they need to be given the freedom to re-define their hours and days of operation as needed, in addition to tailoring all other aspects of their business model. They can't be expected to adapt to changing conditions if they aren't allowed to change with the times.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Tuesday, September 6, 2011 12:18 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
They set the rates. It is their job to be competitive AND profitable.



Afraid not. Per the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act of 2006, they can set their own rates, but these rates cannot exceed the rate of inflation and may be not be set for the purpose of earning a profit. Instead, the Postal Service may only charge enough to more-or-less break even.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:h.r.06407:

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, September 6, 2011 1:49 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Which is exactly as it should be - introduce profit, and you incite corruption, we know this.

In the case of an unexpected deficit on their part, the proper response is auditing (which is the GAOs function, mind you) to see if mistakes were made, and disciplining those responsible if they were.

But comes to it, the US Postal Service works damn well for what it is, and I've no problem subsidizing it if necessary, cause it's a needed service and performs quite effectively on an at-cost basis - in fact it's one of the few services even an Anarchist society would retain nearly intact.

If it ain't broke....

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, September 6, 2011 2:04 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Well, it is broke from what I can tell. It used to be self-sustaining, but now it's not. I'm not sure why it suddenly needs subsidizing. They need to have the freedom to change their business model to adapt to a world that's changing around them.

I don't want to lose the USPS, but I don't want to prop it up with general taxes, either. That's what Stamps are for, in my opinion? If it costs a dollar to mail an envelope, then charge a dollar. Don't charge 50 cents to the guy mailing the envelope and then charge all his neighbors the other 50 cents. What a lamentable evolution that would be.

Moreover, the Post Office should run enough in the black that they can handle setbacks and changes, and have money for innovation. They *have* to take in more than the cost of mailing a package, or else they're being set up for failure at some future date.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Tuesday, September 6, 2011 6:04 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

I do feel they need to be given the freedom to re-define their hours and days of operation as needed, in addition to tailoring all other aspects of their business model. They can't be expected to adapt to changing conditions if they aren't allowed to change with the times.



Anthony, I'm not sure if it applies to the Postal Service or not, but with some businesses like banks, it would literally take an act of Congress to allow them to change their hours too much. They are required by law to never be closed more than three days in a row, from what I remember learning about 'em. And I'd guess there's something similar in the USPS's code.

As for the "default" of the Postal Service over debt and pension obligations, I'm skeptical. They have a SHORT-TERM cashflow shortage, much as the rest of the country does, because their long-term investments have taken a soaking in the market like everything else did in the wake of the Bush collapse.

We Americans tend to have a rather unique ability to look at cyclical events as if what we're seeing today is the way things will always be. We see lowered returns on investments and scream "WE'RE BROKE!"; we see better-than-expected returns on other investments and scream "I'M RICH!", never bothering to take into account that such things tend to run in cycles, up and down, hot and cold.

As Anthony pointed out (repeatedly, and in vain, to Rappy) last week, we're looking at a current economic downturn and weighing current and future earnings against it. This is the same kind of logic that allows one to look at a baseball player who hit a home run in his first at-bat of the season and insist that at the rate he's going, he'll shatter every existing record before the All-Star break. It's cute math, but it's also terribly unreliable math.

If the Postal Service has a shortfall in some short-term debt obligations, a bailout may be in order. After all, even conservatives insist that TARP turned out to be a good idea, and I've yet to hear any reasonable alternatives to the U.S. Postal Service if it's allowed to simply wither and die.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, September 6, 2011 6:14 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
They set the rates. It is their job to be competitive AND profitable.



Afraid not. Per the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act of 2006, they can set their own rates, but these rates cannot exceed the rate of inflation and may be not be set for the purpose of earning a profit. Instead, the Postal Service may only charge enough to more-or-less break even.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:h.r.06407:

"Keep the Shiny side up"




Sounds like that may have been a bad idea, and we should perhaps look into repealing it. Who on Earth would vote to put such onerous regulations on a business, stating that it could not, by law, earn a profit, and fixing its prices?

Surely no pro-business, "run government like you run a business" lassiez-faire free-marketer would ever support such an Act. Would they?



"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, September 7, 2011 6:34 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I agree with Frem on this one, we better still have the post office.

And I'd rather see the USPS bailed out than those bank and corporate bailouts at the end of 08.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 2:46 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Geezer, thanx for clarification on their not being able to raise rates; I was coming in with that one but you beat me to it. Also the point about junk mail, which makes up 99.9999% of what comes into our mailbox!

From what I've been hearing, the problem is that they have some kind of big payment coming up for--money they borrowed from the government or something, if I recall? That seems to be the current problem, and I heard somewhere that Obama is talking about putting off the deadline or somesuch. It was just one mention and I wasn't paying all that much attention. The USPS has been in trouble for a long time now. The current problem is
Quote:

a $5.5 billion payment due on Sept. 30, intended to finance retirees’ future health care, won’t cause immediate disaster. But sometime early next year, the agency will run out of money to pay its employees and gas up its trucks, officials warn, forcing it to stop delivering the roughly three billion pieces of mail it handles weekly.
Yeah, that's what it was--it's a payment due that they can't make.

Ah, found some stuff on the issue, which pertains to the rate increases, etc.:
Quote:

After running up billions of dollars in losses subsidized by the federal government from 1942-71, the postal service was made a quasi-independent non-profit enterprise (the United States Postal Service, or USPS) that no longer receives any direct government subsidy. Financially, USPS held its own until 2007, but since then cumulative losses have amounted to about $20 billion, and it is expected to lose another $8 billion this fiscal year. Obviously, this cannot continue much longer without a resumption of government subsidies, so this is an excellent time to consider major changes in the postal service and the economic environment in which it operates.

The most important factor behind its worsening financial fortunes is the sizable drop during recent years in the total volume of mail delivered. First class mail alone, although protected by a legal monopoly, fell by about 30% from 1998-2008, and has continued to fall rapidly during the past 3 years. The Great Recession is responsible for part of the decline in mail deliveries in recent years, but most of the fall has been due to the growing use of the Internet to pay bills, and to deliver newspapers, magazines, and books. The recession will end, but Internet use will only get more widespread, so the challenges facing USPS will continue to grow.

Defenders of the postal service correctly point out that part of its troubles is due to regulations that significantly raise its costs of operation. These include the requirements to deliver first class and some other mail 6 days a week at uniform prices to about 150 million residences, mailboxes, and businesses, including very remote locations that are costly to serve. Most mail prices can only be raised according to a formula fixed in 2006, and the USPS is restricted from entering new businesses.

The postal system would like to reduce costs by eliminating regular delivery of mail on Saturday, and by closing about 10% of it’s over 30,000 post offices. It would also like greater freedom in setting prices of first class and other mail delivery. The postal system should be given these and other requests to operate more freely. Regular Saturday delivery of mail is an expensive luxury that is no longer needed, and the cost of operating post offices in remote areas cannot be justified, especially given the growing use of the Internet to pay bills and receive news and advertising.

However, greater freedom for the USPS should be part of a sweeping reform of the environment in which the postal service operates. Certain major advantages given to the USPS should also be removed. The post office has had a monopoly for over 100 years on the daily delivery of first class letters and other mail, a monopoly that includes exclusive access to customer mailboxes. Eliminating this monopoly, and allowing the postal service to operate as a private for-profit company, would force the USPS to try to compete more fully against Fed Ex, UPS, and perhaps new companies that would enter the mail business.

Competition would do wonders for mail delivery in the United States since it would make the USPS improve its operations if it wants to survive against competitors. We have seen how the 1971 law that required the postal service to be financially self-sufficient forced the postal service to eliminate losses. It did this by cutting costs through large reductions in the number of postal workers, and by closing many small and uneconomical post offices. More at http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/2011/09/in-trouble-once-again-what-t
o-do-about-us-post-office-becker.html
]


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, September 8, 2011 6:20 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Niki, read my semi-snarky response above about the act passed in 2006, then re-read the article you posted, paying close attention to the mention of what happened in the years 2006 and 2007.

Do you see it?

The USPS was set up to fail by a GOP-led Congress (both houses) and White House. The legislation was sponsored by a Republican.

WHY would they want the USPS gone? Because it provides a service at a significantly lower price than the "free market" does. So they had to strangle it.

Really, when was the last time you heard Republicans arguing for MORE regulations, STRICTER regulations, stringent price fixing, and making it all but illegal to turn a profit? The ONLY time you'll hear these kinds of arguments from Republicans is when these actions are being taken against an entity they want to be rid of. Planned Parenthood comes to mind.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 7:04 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Niki, read my semi-snarky response above about the act passed in 2006, then re-read the article you posted, paying close attention to the mention of what happened in the years 2006 and 2007.

Do you see it?

The USPS was set up to fail by a GOP-led Congress (both houses) and White House. The legislation was sponsored by a Republican.

WHY would they want the USPS gone? Because it provides a service at a significantly lower price than the "free market" does. So they had to strangle it.

Really, when was the last time you heard Republicans arguing for MORE regulations, STRICTER regulations, stringent price fixing, and making it all but illegal to turn a profit? The ONLY time you'll hear these kinds of arguments from Republicans is when these actions are being taken against an entity they want to be rid of. Planned Parenthood comes to mind.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill




Hello,

I think you are right about that, Mike. I noticed the same thing with Texas welfare and taxes for strip clubs.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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